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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Do women find the effeminate man in the tail of Y and current Z generations attractive?

To me, they have no identity, and tied with their metrosexuality, they seem more like women than men. Men can usually tell a hot guy just like the ladies can tell a hot woman, and none of the guys I'm seeing positioning themselves in this role are very attractive--this coming from a man who grew up very effeminate himself (household of women raising him). The characteristics aren't bad, but it's too much at once, and prolonged. A man with too many feminine qualities isn't much of a man.

What is a man?
Is the old identity of a man becoming a negative?
Are men changing their identity into an androgyny rather than masculinity?
Ladies, what is your ideal man? Provide some very generalized traits.
 

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I've always been drawn to people who are genderqueer and/or androgynous in terms of aesthetics but I don't represent the majority since I have no preference in terms of biological sex.

tbh I don't care if someone's not a "real man". Being male or female or masculine or feminine doesn't matter to me. I like it when my partner has both traits. Gender expression is not something I really care about.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I've always been drawn to people who are genderqueer and/or androgynous in terms of aesthetics but I don't represent the majority since I have no preference in terms of biological sex.

tbh I don't care if someone's not a "real man". Being male or female or masculine or feminine doesn't matter to me. I like it when my partner has both traits. Gender expression is not something I really care about.
As someone who is ambivalent towards the role of men (and women I'm assuming), what is the central role of physical attraction to you, aside from mental stimulation of their personal traits?
 
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Oh and I embodies both gender traits as well. I've been told that I'm a male with a female body. If you ask some people in my life, they would tell you that I'm very feminine. Others will tell you that I have a male brain. I don't know what they are basing these on. Majority of people on the internet I came across thought I was male. I don't really see myself as either one.
 

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As someone who is ambivalent towards the role of men (and women I'm assuming), what is the central role of physical attraction to you, aside from mental stimulation of their personal traits?
I don't expereince sexual attraction. Rarely I would find someone aesthetically attractive and they were all genderqueer. It's possible for me to fall for personality solely. My current partner is cis and I fell for their personality.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 · (Edited)
Hmmm. I don't recall putting you in charge of what makes a man and what doesn't. It looks like things are being done behind my back here. You're fired.
Define a man. You're in charge now.

Shall you decide a definition, or will you be elusive and unintrusive to the argument?

Or are you a relativist? (Of gathering some thanked posts?) ^_^
 

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In terms of masculinity/femininity, it does seem like males are becoming more effeminate.

I speculate that it may have to do with the "everyone's a winner"/"everyone's [...]"/"everyone's beautiful" phenomenon.

Competition is being frowned upon and seen as something distasteful, which, I think, impacts, to some extent, the general shift in male behavior.

Masculinity seemed to thrive, to some extent/a part of it, from power/self-sufficiency/domination/etc., although, these values seem to have shifted into more stereotypically "soft" features (compassion/mutual aid/etc).

Also, a part of it might be in relation to a country's "diet"/"lifestyle".
Lifestyles/foods that fluctuate hormones in a way that increases estrogen production as opposed to testosterone production, etc.
 

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There's not much reason for most people in the Western world to be typically masculine anymore. Most things worth conquering, have been conquered already. Social ills are the main threat, rather than physical dangers such as wild animals or unforgiving terrains. Stereotypically "manly" traits like strength or handiness are not valued much in society anymore, especially with robots/people in Third World countries/illegal immigrants doing most of our "dirty work". Social intelligence is the most valued thing you could have in the workplace, with critical thinking skills and verbal eloquence the next most important. Violence and even just plain anger are STRONGLY frowned upon in society. Come to think of it, androgyny has been prevalent in society in some form or another since the 70s, when we began moving all our blue-collar jobs overseas.
 

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Define a man. You're in charge now.

Shall you decide a definition, or will you be elusive and unintrusive to the argument?

Or are you a relativist? (Of gathering some thanked posts?) ^_^
I enjoyed all your post edits. Am I flustering you? Leave the being clever to me gumdrop.

A man is an adult male human. There are some other variables like transgendered and transsexual people, but I'm not very clear on them so I'm going to go with this definition for now.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Hmmm. I don't recall putting you in charge of what makes a man and what doesn't. It looks like things are being done behind my back here. You're fired.
Still waiting for your definition sweetheart.

I'm expecting a very neutral post, so that I can continue the conversation until you rage-quit.
 

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I'm curious to know what women will say as well.

I can only speak to US culture, and I don't think things are changing that quickly, but the concept of masculinity is being challenged by an awareness that gender norms are socially constructed. I think that our biology plays a small role compared to our environment in terms how we identify. My opinion is that people are beginning to free themselves from psychologically harmful limitations/restrictions and that it should continue at a faster pace. The idea is not that men should become women or that women should become men for that matter because that assumes a gender role. Instead, it's about taking gender out of the picture entirely and allowing people to express themselves as they see fit. We are not anywhere near this yet, however. There is still a very strong gender codification in our development. It will take many generations.

Here is my theory on where we are at:

Gender construct
|-----------X-------------------------------------------| Freedom

What this means is that Sex and Gender are still typically viewed as linked. This is evident, I believe, with Trans folks who are trying to fit within the gender dichotomy. As we get closer to Freedom on this scale, we will see less of this. Ideally, behavior, appearance, and even things like color will not be determined by whether you are born Male or Female. You will be born a sex but gender will cease to exist in our minds. There will be differences between men and women but those will be negligible compared to what we have now.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I enjoyed all your post edits. Am I flustering you? Leave the being clever to me gumdrop.

A man is an adult male human. There are some other variables like transgendered and transsexual people, but I'm not very clear on them so I'm going to go with this definition for now.
No dear, I'm just post editing because I look at your post and see more problems with it, which I'd like answers to why you utilized the logic you did. So you're not clear on anything? Perhaps you ought to shush until you know what you're talking about, and then you can make intelligible arguments? Yes. That would be wise. No trolling, just friendly advice. ^_^
 

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No dear, I'm just post editing because I look at your post and see more problems with it, which I'd like answers to why you utilized the logic you did. So you're not clear on anything? Perhaps you ought to shush until you know what you're talking about, and then you can make intelligible arguments? Yes. That would be wise. No trolling, just friendly advice. ^_^


I am clear. I said an adult human male. :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·


I am clear. I said an adult human male. :)
Express your point more clearly so that not only I may chastise you.

Do you not have a position to stand for? Are you going to present one, ever? Who knows!? You DO have one, as we all do, but you're too hesitant to be honest, because it will eat you alive, love.

That's the difference. I will accept it. You run scared and dodge it.
 

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What is a man? has testicles(purely scientific)
Is the old identity of a man becoming a negative? no I don't, just more rare.
Are men changing their identity into an androgyny rather than masculinity? yes, and that means more women for me.
 

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This applies more to white men, or the West. Us non-whites go as hard as ever. White men let their women control them from what I have seen. It's why I dont get along with white women..even though I've had relations with them. They expect to not defer if pushed. In my household if I say something, that is what happens. And its not just with a wife and children. Even my sisters when I was a kid...we could talk and discuss and argue but if I had decided they knew the matter was settled.

Its like I told my ex when she asked why men and women arent equal in life. I told her, its because at the end of the day Im willing to go out there and kill or die for what I want, and women usually arent.

Men and women are not equal. We are different. And we are complimentary. And we function best when we are working for one another. But we're not equal..we each have our roles.
 

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Well...there are some actual biological differences between men and women that is referred to as biological sex.
Gender is a completely different issue, and is much more fluid, depending on culture. What is thought of as masculine in China is different than what is considered masculine in France. There lies the issue with trying to determine what is a 'man' as was asked by the OP. It will completely depend on culture and how people are raised.
For example, in Western Culture, women as a whole are far less adept at spacial reasoning. Yet, if a woman has an older brother, she will be better at it; conversely, if a man has an older sister, statistically he will be worse at it. There was a study done regarding patriarchal vs matriarchal societies, and in the patriarchal society men far outpace women in spacial reasoning, yet in matriarchal societies women are equal to our outpace men. What does this imply? Of course, this could all be complete happenstance, since correlation does not equal causation, but it is statistically significant.

My point is that 'gender' is a rather fluid concept. Femininity has changed drastically even over the last 300 years. 300 years ago, the hottest woman around was heavier and very fair. Now, it is the fit or thin woman with tanned skin (this is a stereotype, but you get the idea). So, it is likely that what is considered masculine has changed, is changing, and will change.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Double post.
 
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