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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I (ENFJ) do not know what I am trying to achieve from posting, maybe just insight into my psyche.


My friend M (INTP) has left an impact on me through our interactions though most of it is limited to writing and not real life interaction. It was a recent friendship that began because we shared similar interests in fiction, movies, but overall it was a friendship based in "thinking". It's not really intelligence but just how we similarly analyzed and thought through ideas. I would really love to ask him questions and see his deeper analysis.


Most people answer questions (Why do you love star gazing?) very simply but M would spend ages thinking through the question and answer it from multiple layers of interpretation and analysis ("Mayans believed they were holes cut from a black bowl, but they are really balls of gases, great giant balls of gases, and we are just pieces of star dust"...referencing the scientific, physical, metaphysical, etc"). The essays he wrote were like a drug for me who would spend my nights reading and writing my responses to. From me, it was one of the rare times meeting someone whose mind analyzed as much as my own did. I can count on my hand the numbers of times I have felt this way.


However, we are vastly different in our approaches to life. M is very free and independent and wild, wanting to experience all that this world can offer in terms of travel, experiences, and interactions with people. He has experienced the vast range of drugs, sex, etc. He has never had a relationship and does not really know how to. His mind runs on the logic of "never making promises which could close the door to other possibilities".


I am romantic and believe in focusing on one true love and having a partner to share and build a future together. In fact just by liking M, I have personally closed all the doors to other guys who have been trying to date/know me better. I can never betray my heart (and it would not be fair to others) and my feelings are loyal for the people I like. I naturally think about forever with them and all the effort I would put in to make things last. I have been in two relationships and they were all very genuine and supportive.


The rational me knows our ideas about the future are not compatible. Even so I gathered up courage and confessed. M kissed and held me (all innocent) the entire night with a tenderness that was very rare. But he disappeared for a few days, was very conflicted, and later told me he would like to remain friends. M wavered on this back and forth until getting drunk one night pulled me aside to say he's "really fucking scared of hurting others, of getting hurt, of disappointing, of losing the self-reliance he has built up over 33 years, of losing his independence on someone else who is likely to change." An insecurity about lacking the ability to have a normal relationship came out of him that night and it pierced me deeply. After that he disappeared again, coming back weeks later to say he would like to date. I did not agree, knowing our differences and spilling my guts about my care for him. M pleaded for the opportunity to grow to where I was. I asked what he was thinking and even hearing him speak knew it was impossible for his mentality. Dating (at least in the beginning) still meant no "exclusivity" and him still holding on to his free party/experience lifestyle, which would hurt me deeply. I refused and he tried to remain friends, at least with the ability to still talk to me. I agreed to that in the future when we had both moved on.


The thing is I know M and I are not going to work and there is nothing more I can do but that does not mean the feelings felt were not genuine. I felt extremely comfortable talking about anything and everything with him and he, me. When we were friends, we had no filter between us. He has been nothing but very decent and honest, enough to always tell me the truth even when lying would have benefited him more. He was upfront about how when we first met, M had a fantasy of being my first sexual partner/drug experience, something which would mark me forever. And that he had no emotional connection now with me but he wanted to try for it. For me as well, in the end I did not agree to date him because I knew his drug use and experimental lifestyle did truly make him happy and a girl with that type of experience would definitely make him happier one day unlike what I could offer him. I guess that's the point. That we care about each other's happiness more than if he can have my body and more than if I can be his girlfriend. We were so open with our feelings and conflicts in what to do about us because we knew the other would never berate us for our true feelings. It was amazing to be able to speak honestly about all the deep issues I could never bring up as easily with others.


Most unrequited loves end with others comforting the person that the two people were not actually compatible. I agree that M is not compatible but I do not care about him just so he could be my boyfriend/serve a use. It does not matter he cannot fulfill my emotional needs. I care for him because there is only one M in the world and I want him to be happy even if I did not exist. This type of deep feeling. I wonder if it fades so easily from just understanding someone is not the right "fit" and “use" for you. I wonder if there's something to be gained by analyzing this through the lens of Myers Briggs, which may hopefully help me resolve these pent up emotions.

Thank you for reading.
 

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This was beautiful. You're wonderful. :th_love: I've always had great experiences with ENFJ's and they may be my favorite type. The way you wrote this was perfect. It's like a last love letter to M whoever he may be, wherever he may be.

That dominant Fe... *swoon*

How this guy could have managed to let you slip between his fingers is beyond me.
 

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This was beautiful. You're wonderful. :th_love: I've always had great experiences with ENFJ's and they may be my favorite type. The way you wrote this was perfect. It's like a last love letter to M whoever he may be, wherever he may be.

That dominant Fe... *swoon*

How this guy could have managed to let you slip between his fingers is beyond me.
My sentiments exactly. Your story is very touching paomo. Your feelings are beautiful and don't let anyone tell you otherwise. I hope you manage to find some resolution here on the INTP boards.

I have been in several relationships before but my current ENFJ girlfriend was the first person with whom I felt an immediate chemistry. We did have our problems but they had more to do with lifestyle differences than any lack of emotional support. Fortunately, the lifestyle differences were resolved through good communication. It turns out that she really admired the way I live and all I had to do was convince her that she was worthy of being by my side.

Most INTP relationships run into trouble with our naturally poor Fe but an INTP with a well-developed Ne has the ability to overcome this and show your strong feelings right back at you. I call this "emotional mirroring" and under normal circumstances, I would collect the good feelings from my friends and experiences and show them to my lover. However my ENFJ is so incredibly warm that not only is she getting a suitable dose of affection amplified by her own emotions, but her strong feelings spill over into my friendships and everything else I do. My world is a brighter place because of her. Likewise, she borrows my confidence and ability to explain why things are the way they are. I would say that the ENFJ-INTP pair has excellent potential for chemistry and long-term happiness but also presents huge hurdles when it comes to actually making a relationship work. It really takes a lot of communication, maturity, trust, and intimacy but in the end, this is a pairing I believe in.
 

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I joined the forum trying to figure out an ENFJ in my life. I can attest to the chemistry between ENFJs & INTPs.
 

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M wavered on this back and forth until getting drunk one night pulled me aside to say he's "really fucking scared of hurting others, of getting hurt, of disappointing, of losing the self-reliance he has built up over 33 years, of losing his independence on someone else who is likely to change." An insecurity about lacking the ability to have a normal relationship came out of him that night and it pierced me deeply.
While everything you wrote is beautiful and I agree with the rest of the replies I think this right here is the most important part of it all. It gives a lot of insight into his behavior which can be perceived as not wanting to settle down because he enjoys the freedom of being single.
You also say that in the beginning dating still meant not being exclusive, are you trying to say that you are unsure where he would stand on this now? It seems as though from what you said, since meeting you he has become more inclined to change this among other things, for you and you alone.

I think what you need to reflect on is simply, do you want to let all of this go and have no risk of being hurt or do you want the chance to make it more? Even if that means running the risk of being hurt?
 

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That was pretty.
 

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@paomo

Beautifully written. You have done the right thing - to love, to confess your love, and to not let yourself into a painful relationship.

I admire your enormous capacity to love this person in his entirety, at the same time maintaining love and respect for yourself. Always considered it a nearly impossible balance, and it is truly astonishing to witness this.
 

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I don't really get the chemistry behind INTP - ENFJ. They usually end up messing my head with little details, and I really hate being bothered constantly :frustrating:.
 

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While everything you wrote is beautiful and I agree with the rest of the replies I think this right here is the most important part of it all. It gives a lot of insight into his behavior which can be perceived as not wanting to settle down because he enjoys the freedom of being single.
You also say that in the beginning dating still meant not being exclusive, are you trying to say that you are unsure where he would stand on this now? It seems as though from what you said, since meeting you he has become more inclined to change this among other things, for you and you alone.

I think what you need to reflect on is simply, do you want to let all of this go and have no risk of being hurt or do you want the chance to make it more? Even if that means running the risk of being hurt?
Yea, i'm on board with this. He was looking to jump and you did not move to catch him.

I always say love is not enough. Love does not make a relationship and it does not guarantee it's all going to be worthwhile. On the other hand, what else are we doing with our time?
 

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I bet it's weird to say this, but I have had a really similar experience with an INTP friend of mine. Very awkward. So much stuff unsaid but the same sort of convoluted feel.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
This was beautiful. You're wonderful. :th_love: I've always had great experiences with ENFJ's and they may be my favorite type. The way you wrote this was perfect. It's like a last love letter to M whoever he may be, wherever he may be.

That dominant Fe... *swoon*

How this guy could have managed to let you slip between his fingers is beyond me.

Thank you dear. That was very sweet of you. I must have written him countless love letters in my head and journals. INTP's are definitely my Achilles heel as well. The inner world within you all (TI?) is endlessly fascinating.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Hello wayward_raven I really enjoyed hearing about you and your girlfriend's story. I'm glad you guys had the strength and perseverance to make something work despite initial difficulties. What type of lifestyle differences did you run into initially? Ahh I see quite often the nf-nt bonding as something quite complimentary with the nf providing warmth of emotion and the nt providing objectivity so overall people become much more well rounded. It's lovely to see here.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
While everything you wrote is beautiful and I agree with the rest of the replies I think this right here is the most important part of it all. It gives a lot of insight into his behavior which can be perceived as not wanting to settle down because he enjoys the freedom of being single.
You also say that in the beginning dating still meant not being exclusive, are you trying to say that you are unsure where he would stand on this now? It seems as though from what you said, since meeting you he has become more inclined to change this among other things, for you and you alone.

I think what you need to reflect on is simply, do you want to let all of this go and have no risk of being hurt or do you want the chance to make it more? Even if that means running the risk of being hurt?
I am really torn really. Not trying to give a rolling update but did run into him accidentally very recently. Drunk out of his mind, he came over multiple times but could only open his mouth without a word coming out, and the most hapless expression on his face. He followed me around like a lost puppy. I caved and just opened my arms to him. Nothing is resolved or talked over but I cannot ignore his pain if I can do something to relieve it.

I guess right now his happiness comes first though I did not choose it. So I will just open my arms to him in his pain. And maybe when his happiness is achieved I can think about my own. I really don't think we are compatible though. I am not his type, and cannot give him what he needs (an understanding of drug use/wild outlook on life). And I really cannot allow myself to be physical with him knowing he is the same with countless others. That would destroy me.
 

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Hello wayward_raven I really enjoyed hearing about you and your girlfriend's story. I'm glad you guys had the strength and perseverance to make something work despite initial difficulties. What type of lifestyle differences did you run into initially? Ahh I see quite often the nf-nt bonding as something quite complimentary with the nf providing warmth of emotion and the nt providing objectivity so overall people become much more well rounded. It's lovely to see here.
Hi paomo, my girlfriend is one of the kindest and warmest people in the world. Up until she met me, she lived to make others happy, leading a very frugal lifestyle of her own in a rented room with few belongings. She ate simply, lived simply, and played simply. She was also extremely intelligent, capable, and courageous, having had a very successful career. Due to certain circumstances, she felt very strongly that she did not deserve happiness and that she could never pay back the debt she owed to the world.

I also lived fairly simply but in my case, this involved minimizing any personal obligations that could get in the way of enjoying my hobbies and finding new ways to enjoy life. I was very whimsical and did whatever I wanted at my own pace. I still enjoyed my relationships with work, family, and friends but felt little obligation to any of them. I avoid drugs and despite being somewhat of a womanizer, I harbored a repressed hatred for casual sex (which I recently let out in a burst of Fe catharsis on the Casual Sex thread).

The basic conflict in lifestyle was between her need for others to depend on her and my insistence not to depend on anyone. What made it work on my end was the understanding that my life can be enriched with a suitable partner by my side. I had no doubt that she was one such person and made my admiration of her quite clear. On her end, she was giving so much to others that she repressed many of her own desires. As a result, she really enjoyed the way I encouraged her to share her passions with me. You might say that while the balance of feeling and thinking provided the chemistry, it was the strength of our communication and the maturity of our intuition that helped us get over the differences.

EDIT: I'll add a note that it helped greatly that even though I dated a lot of women, I did not sleep with anyone unless I was in an exclusive relationship with her. Even though she said I should do it if it makes me happy, had I actually engaged in casual sex with others, the relationship probably would have ended badly once she started expressing and defending her strongly-held values.
 

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I appreciate how much feeling you have for M and it shows through in your words. Yet I am unable to understand how you wanting him to be happy intersects with you being able to make him happy. To me from an MBTI persepctive persepctive this is about him wanting Fe and you giving it to him in spades and as long as you give him what he wants without asking for what you want in a clear manner you will not find the objective reality that it is not meant to be. ENFJ with its inferior Ti longs for the dominant Ti of the IXTP and INTP with his inferior Fe longs for the dominant Fe of the EXFJ. This tends to be codependence rather than individuation and assertion. You will need to resist the drug of Ti as hard as that may be (perhaps there were some experiences that undermined your Ti that cause you to really want any Ti) when it is combined with vulnerabilities that you simply cannot hope to repair even with all the dominant Fe available at your disposal. You can reassure him (that conversation about him never wanting to get hurt should be a key reminder to you) all you want, but rest assured that in a mutually satisfying relationship there WILL be hurt and pain and if at the first sight of hurt and pain and inconstancy he finds in you it reawakens all his fears, then you will have to be a veritable martyr and saint to preserve this relationship. You seem to be quite willing to set aside your desires for his sake, you might be willing to do that for a little while in the future, but you cannot keep it up forever. You will remind him of his drug use, his desire for other casual relationships and slowly and gently, like a huge python will start to coil around him and he in turn WILL feel suffocated by your dominant Fe. But this is just you being you, completely authentic. This is not a relationship that is going to work without both of you putting a tremendous amount of energy into the relationship. You seem to want to do so, he seems to want to do so and yet the way in which you are going about it seems as if both of you just wish magic would happen organically. Of course, you know you will move on if you completely cut him off (just like any drug, go cold turkey) for a few months.

However if you are interested in trying out this relationship, here is how to go about it. You have to cease judging him for his drug use, his desire to not be exclusive, his desire to be free etc...This means allowing your Ni and Se to operate at a higher level. You have to allow him to be completeley himself even when it seems to be in conflict with your self. You have to further more support him in these explorations - all the words you are using for his explorations confer a negative connotation - and look at them in a positive way. You will have to be completely yourself in the relationship authentically. Anything less and you yourself will not feel happy. It is achievable. It takes work. I know multiple INTPs (more than any other type - 6 of them) and while all of them are thoroughly exporative, not a single one of them could be qualified as a casual sex seeker or drug use in any pejorative sense. We just dont go for the Sensory stuff all out. A dominant Ti simply doesnt have the time or inclination to waste (yes, waste) on repeating the same experience over and over again without anything to feed Ti from it. All we do is feed the beast of Ti. And the beast of Ti is an overwhelming, overpowering one. We really do spend hours and hours until we understand something and then poof, that desire is gone. To never come back again. I read Masters and Johnson when I was in tenth grade. When my Dad saw the book in my posession he merely inquired why I would need to read it. I said "Isnt it obvious?". I read Boccacio Decameron in roughly the same grade. Practically anything goes from an Ne perspective to feed Ti. I am a vegetarian from birth - yet I will try all kinds of food just to see what it tastes like and then never go back to it, satisfied that I dont have to rely on Hemingways descriptions to imagine what food must be like. I am telling you all this to show you that dominant Ti simply doesnt have the energy to make long term casual relationships or drug use or wildness last. Eventually (within a day or two), it has to go back and process the experiences and that is like a python that has swallowed a large deer having to rest and process. Allow him to individualize and support him, he likewise you and you could make it work. Judge him (even if it feels like warm cuddly coddling nannying - you know the nanny state, INTPs really dislike it) and neither will you nor he be happy.

And to me, even though everything you have written sounds beautifuland corny and romantic, it just makes me feel judged and makes me go "gaaaaah, get me out of here". It is like being cuccooned and wrapped in a million swaddling blankets so that i will never feel pain. you be that way, thats fine with me. dont wrap me up. Dont coddle me. Let me be myself.

I remember a long time ago seeing an interview of Alain Roberts and his wife. I think he is an ISTP. His wife when asked whether she never worried simply said something to the effet - i enjoy him when he is here and him being him makes it more enjoyable. sure i worry he might never come back. but i would never change him. i cant find that interview, but this is alain roberts : Alain Robert: 'French Spiderman' on his death-defying stunts - CNN.com. I think her perspective s quite helpful in understanding how to deal with dom Ti.

Others can add more perspectives to this. As I am sure there are.
 
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