[Vive]

Dear Eights,

A very common thing I tend to hear (and see) when it comes to eights is that what they do, achieve, say, etc, often enough can make people proud of this eight, or it makes others intimidated, annoyed, etc, though the 'strength' with which an eight can push things forward can in my eyes often garner some form of respect from others, but I'm wondering where you stand yourselves. Perspectives differ and I can imagine that when it's easy to assert yourself and push things through; that achievements that result from that aren't as great as others make them out to be, or at least that is my guess.

When do you believe you deserve your own respect?

What makes you proud of yourself and are those things similar to the actions or words other people respect you for?

Do you think you often get misplaced admiration from others, and when does that happen?

 

[birdsintrees]

First off and something that I was trying to convey in the original reply: respect, in the sense of praise, is not a motivation nor a driving force in my life. It doesn't sway me positively when given, it doesn't sway me negatively when withheld.

Respect is a baseline attitude for me when it comes to dealing with people and I expect a similar attitude from others.

That's what respect means to me without any prompt.

- When do you believe you deserve your own respect?
Always as a baseline attitude from one human being to another and so, as well, from myself.

If you mean it in a sense of being proud of oneself: when I've accomplished something I didn't think I was going to be able to.

- What makes you proud of yourself and are those things similar to the actions or words other people respect you for?
I was proud of myself when I finished my master degree after being told I shouldn't waste my time and I was shooting too high.

I don't really know what other people respect me for. It's not something I investigate in my relationships.

- Do you think you often get misplaced admiration from others, and when does that happen?
Sometimes. Usually for things that I feel are just making things work even when the odds are stacked against me.

 

[Lord Bullingdon]

A very common thing I tend to hear (and see) when it comes to eights is that what they do, achieve, say, etc, often enough can make people proud of this eight, or it makes others intimidated, annoyed, etc, though the 'strength' with which an eight can push things forward can in my eyes often garner some form of respect from others, but I'm wondering where you stand yourselves. Perspectives differ and I can imagine that when it's easy to assert yourself and push things through; that achievements that result from that aren't as great as others make them out to be, or at least that is my guess.

Thanks for this great question Vive. I'll start by saying that it may not be exactly how you think it is. First, some things about myself. I haven't accomplished much in my life--so I can't easily comment on my "achievements", as you say. Maybe some people would think I have; yet I am not currently satisfied. I've spent much of my life goofing off as an ENTP does--taking too long to get a degree, failing socially/sexually/interpersonally/professionally, spending years traveling, being sick for years on end, being depressed, taking care of legal issues against me, dealing with the deaths of family members...when I look at my life I see a long string of isolation, failures, and dissatisfaction. I own nothing, I'm unemployed, I'm chronically single and alone in every sense, I have no family, I'm in debt; I'm reaching midlife with nothing to show for it.

So in one respect, you're right--my achievements aren't as great as others may make them out to be. Byron once said, "It sparkles but near the brim"...that's true of my life. Someone might see it as this wonderful adventure story, filled with travel and struggle and derring do and think it's just the bees knees... To me, it feels like just survival--not that this doesn't matter. It does. In some ways, I feel I'm really the only person worth listening to since I've dealt with so much. In other ways, well, let me elaborate while answering your questions below.

When do you believe you deserve your own respect?
On principle, I don't know. I don't really have a rubric that I can check off that tells me when I can respect myself.

Instead, I would again point to the difficulties I've endured (ALONE, I might add, under circumstances that would have broken most people in half) and say that this is why I think more highly of myself than I do of most others. Because people couldn't deal with HALF of one episode in my life, not even for one day...let alone the entire thing. I've mentally accorded myself many medals, honors, and other decorations to commemorate my own struggles and victories.

So, to try to answer the question...I guess my strength and capacity to prevail is when I believe I deserve my own respect. And, because I've operated above and beyond on this front, I accord myself high respect.

What makes you proud of yourself and are those things similar to the actions or words other people respect you for?
I think I address this question both above and below. Let me just add that, for reasons I think relate to my instinctual stacking, there are certainly areas of my life I've forcibly ignored...and I regret this now, and in ways different from what I mentioned about the struggle for survival, actually think of myself as LESS than who I want to be.

I mention this because my mother actually tends to harp on what I've endured in life, more than I actually do--while my war decorations are things of immense pride for me, I have other priorities in life, and right now, I only see how I've let myself down in those ways. So although I respect myself more than anyone for enduring my life, it has limited coverage I guess you could say. Does that make sense? Probably not. Welp.

Do you think you often get misplaced admiration from others, and when does that happen?
Only on PerC and other online forums. That is literally the only place I've heard my type deified to the degree it has been. Irl, in the non-enneagram world, I don't feel that I get much admiration from others. I see myself more as a scruffy unwanted animal trying to hold out just one more day in a junkyard somewhere, against the odds, than anything admirable--and being objective, there just isn't much evidence to the contrary.

Quite honestly, the only times people have ever admired me has either been through my artwork, or my so-called "moral values" (which is basically stupid people reading their own principles into my actions and statements). Both of these things make me want to punch people. I really hate being admired, but all the more so for "moral values". (It's not any sort of modesty, as you may gather from my prior statements...it just creeps me out to be admired and to have people think I have "moral values".)

I don't know if that is even what you were looking for, but that's my bit.

 

[BigCat]

When do you believe you deserve your own respect?
That's a good question. I've had self esteem issues my entire life, but never really considered when do I deserve my own respect. I think I'm way too hard on myself a lot of times so I don't give myself respect often.

What makes you proud of yourself and are those things similar to the actions or words other people respect you for?
When I help people with their problems and they show their appreciation. I don't know what people respect me for outside of a few people.

Do you think you often get misplaced admiration from others, and when does that happen?
More like unrealistic expectations when I'm expected to do something.

 

[drmiller100]

When do you believe you deserve your own respect?

When I am honest, authentic. Fe is a big deal - I do like to help people.

When i was younger I was proud fo my logical abilities. don't care so much about that anymore.


What makes you proud of yourself and are those things similar to the actions or words other people respect you for?

When I make a difference in people's lives. When I accomplish things. I'm proud of my ability to raise my kids - they are awesome and doing great. I'm proud of a few other things in life.
.

Do you think you often get misplaced admiration from others, and when does that happen?

As I get older, I get better at hiding what I'm doing. I really don't want admiration from other people.

 

[Vive]

Thanks!

Thank you all for taking the time to answer my questions!

The general pattern I seem to notice is a lack of either concern for or simply attention to what other's think of you. When it comes to self-respect (or whether you take pride you take in being yourself) things seem to differ for everyone. Though I don't think we can speak of a general sense of pride in oneself; it seems more like you feel you have to work hard or at the least change something to be proud of yourself.

There's this idea I had yesterday

What I would've guessed about eights is that they view themselves more negatively then those around them. Not per sé because they don't respect themselves, although they might not, we could all lose respect in ourselves due to something we cannot forgive ourselves for, but what I mean is more that they eight plays 'dirty'; in order not to be controlled, the eight exerts control, preferably before the eight can even get into what feels like a vulnerable position. They dislike being controlled themselves, but yet on their bad days they can be overtly forceful and maybe overtly controlling with others, perhaps without really intending to.

I am curious whether it might make the eight feel guilty in some way and they feel like they have to achieve more, work on themselves more and they might often fail to be proud of themselves, in a more general sense, because they feel, on some level, as if they are bad people.

(It might be an idea that has already been formulated, but yeah)

Now of course it's abstract Enneagram talk and it is a freshly baked idea out of the oven that is my head, so it might not fit you and it can simply be inaccurate in general. So what do you think about this - would you say it's accurate?

@birdsintrees
I only now realize that what I've said might be interpreted in a couple of different ways, but what I was intending to convey is a very broad definition of respect; a sense of pride, feeling good about yourself, not being uncomfortable with what you are, viewing yourself as a decent human being.

What exactly would this respect constitute for you?
Why would people admiring you for 'just making things work even when the odds are stacked against you' be a form of misplaced admiration?

@Lord Bullingdon
Hmm.. I suppose you're right when it comes to admiration. It might be that the idea of being an 8 can be very appealing to people; getting things done, a general sense of toughness, coolness, etc. Though I don't know, I think it happens in real life though, and it's not really like this general kind of admiration, but when things need to get done and situations are icky eight's push through and do what they want, even if others might disagree and get hostile. It might inspire admiration or make others intimidated.

I think it makes sense that you respect yourself more than anyone for surviving yet that respect has limited covarage, I mean there are many more aspects to life and you don't seem to feel you've been very great at engaging in those, I think it only makes sense then as a result that you feel a bit ambiguous.

Why would you hate being admired and would it creep you out when people think you have moral standards? Exactly?

@BigCat
Would there be a specific reason you don't think of yourself highly? Apologies if that might be a rather personal reason.

@drmiller100
Interesting, how you don't care for your logical abilities - How come?
Why is it that you don't want admiration from others, exactly?

 

[Entropic]

When do you believe you deserve your own respect?
Not quite sure I understand the question, because to me respect is something that should be ever-present. It's a very important value I hold, to respect yourself but also to respect other people. When you don't respect you don't treat people in accordance to their actual value as people; to respect is to fundamentally take notice of and to show that you value people's unique needs, including your own. I suppose in this regard, respect is loosely related to the concept of pride, though pride is an inflated and false sense of esteem and respect is not.

I also think that at least with regards to myself and being able to respect myself, respect is about to also have a sense of integrity in that you say what you do and you do what you say. Even in humiliating situations, it showcases that you respect yourself and others enough to take responsibility for the actions you ultimately chose to take; if you don't respect, you also avoid responsibility, because when you respect, you recognize and affirm the value of yourself and that of others'.

The problem, then, as I see it, isn't so much an issue when you think you are entitled to be respected, but when you decide to no longer respect, regardless if that lack of respect is towards yourself or towards other people. Furthermore, poor self-respect typically results in an inability to express respect towards others, as well. When we lack respect we have a tendency to walk over boundaries that we normally would not do and we end up hurting not only ourselves but also those that we love and actually value.

That to me is something I'll never do, like never. The day I begin to stop respect you, that's the day I lost faith in you and because I sensed that you disrespected me. Furthermore, would I choose to stay, not only do I have to accept the fact that you disrespect me and therefore do not value me, but I no longer respect myself and therefore do not value myself. And in those situations it is utterly important to recognize your own right for respect.

What makes you proud of yourself and are those things similar to the actions or words other people respect you for?
I would say it correlates with what I wrote in response to the previous answer. If you can't take pride in what you do when you know it is the right thing to do in terms of respect, then how can you stand for anything in relation to other people? The only thing that's left is shame because you have no sense of integrity.

Do you think you often get misplaced admiration from others, and when does that happen?
I think one of the most common compliments I get is that I am a strong person. I do feel that it is a misplaced judgement because the judgement is more coming from a place based on someone else's perspective as opposed to try to see it from my own. I don't seek admiration but understanding. Admiration does very little because admiration suggests a divide in power between myself and the admirer, that they are somehow below or inferior to myself. In relationships, I seek an equal, not subordinates. Flatter, including admiration, therefore tends to fall flat. I don't want to feel as if I am some distanced and unattainable other, but I want someone that dares to stand up to me and do so boldly by being themselves, to take pride in themselves by respecting themselves.

I suppose that is part what I think strength is to me. Strength and true power isn't found in admiration but when we can accept ourselves including our flaws and weaknesses and yet be proud to be who we are because it is what ultimately makes us into who we are.

 

[drmiller100]

>>>Interesting, how you don't care for your logical abilities - How come?

I didn't say that.

>>>>Why is it that you don't want admiration from others, exactly?

I am internally motivated, not externally.

Pretty common for ENTP's. Pretty common for mature 8's as well.

 

[Shiver]

I never lack respect for myself. To do so would be a vulnerability on its own, to place the power of respect and identity in the hands of the world, as Three does.

 

[Vive]

When do you believe you deserve your own respect?
Not quite sure I understand the question, because to me respect is something that should be ever-present. It's a very important value I hold, to respect yourself but also to respect other people. When you don't respect you don't treat people in accordance to their actual value as people; to respect is to fundamentally take notice of and to show that you value people's unique needs, including your own. I suppose in this regard, respect is loosely related to the concept of pride, though pride is an inflated and false sense of esteem and respect is not.

Hmm.. yeah perhaps respect is not the word for what I intended to convey, but I find pride and self-respect to be somewhere on equal terms in the context I was speaking of. I don't think pride has to be an inflated and false sense of esteem, though. You can be proud of something you have done, yet not necessarily overestimate how much 'pride' you deserve for it. In the end you determine how proud you should be, and that's kind of what I mean with respect; a self-measure of how well you or others are doing. I believe I see what you're getting at, but I'm not really referring to the 'courtesy of respect you extend to everyone including yourself'. I would say that's more recognizing that they are humans too and that you are willing to listen to them and treat them with a sense of decency, unless the way they act makes you act otherwise. I must admit though that I only have a vague or general idea of what this kind of respect entails exactly.

But if we go by your definition of respect it would mean that we have to notice these unique needs in other people. And of course not everyone can respect everyone else's needs. If someone else is desiring of support in the form of encouragement, I won't always be fulfilling their needs exactly the way they want to, either because they might be overtly demanding of this support, or I might just be tired. I can be annoyed at and show a lack of respect at my own needs. If I find that I really want to go and just relax, but I instead decide to put an extra bit of effort into a project so I could finish it, I'm not really respecting my needs.

I also think that at least with regards to myself and being able to respect myself, respect is about to also have a sense of integrity in that you say what you do and you do what you say. Even in humiliating situations, it showcases that you respect yourself and others enough to take responsibility for the actions you ultimately chose to take; if you don't respect, you also avoid responsibility, because when you respect, you recognize and affirm the value of yourself and that of others'.

If I don't respect myself in the sense that I don't feel good about what exactly I am doing and feel bad about what I have done, it doesn't make me 'avoid responsibility'; for starters, it makes me feel incredibly responsible. Often enough I start on taking blame when I feel bad about myself, even blame that I might not be deserving of.
Even though I don't like devolving into a discussion of ' just semantics' isn't the kind of respect you are referring to more of a 'being true to your word' kind of respect. I mean I can feel bad, feel like I don't deserve my own respect and yet, stay true to my word and deliver on promises I've made. Sure it doesn't make things easier, when I feel bad, but it doesn't mean I fail to recognize the value of others. I don't think I have problem recognizing other people's value, because I tend to view others in a positive light and I often feel admiration for other people, but it's much harder when it comes to myself. It's a very personal example, but I think it illustrates my point nonetheless.

The problem, then, as I see it, isn't so much an issue when you think you are entitled to be respected, but when you decide to no longer respect, regardless if that lack of respect is towards yourself or towards other people. Furthermore, poor self-respect typically results in an inability to express respect towards others, as well. When we lack respect we have a tendency to walk over boundaries that we normally would not do and we end up hurting not only ourselves but also those that we love and actually value.

That to me is something I'll never do, like never. The day I begin to stop respect you, that's the day I lost faith in you and because I sensed that you disrespected me. Furthermore, would I choose to stay, not only do I have to accept the fact that you disrespect me and therefore do not value me, but I no longer respect myself and therefore do not value myself. And in those situations it is utterly important to recognize your own right for respect.

I sincerely disagree, I've been close to points where I've really wanted to give up on myself, but it never meant I was going to give up on other people. Sure, whenever someone has poor faith in themselves or is lacking in self-respect, he's not going to be the most attractive person to be around.The longer I'm busy typing here, the more I start to believe that our difference of opinion simply lies in what we think respect exactly entails.

Do you think you often get misplaced admiration from others, and when does that happen?
I think one of the most common compliments I get is that I am a strong person. I do feel that it is a misplaced judgement because the judgement is more coming from a place based on someone else's perspective as opposed to try to see it from my own. I don't seek admiration but understanding. Admiration does very little because admiration suggests a divide in power between myself and the admirer, that they are somehow below or inferior to myself. In relationships, I seek an equal, not subordinates. Flatter, including admiration, therefore tends to fall flat. I don't want to feel as if I am some distanced and unattainable other, but I want someone that dares to stand up to me and do so boldly by being themselves, to take pride in themselves by respecting themselves.

I suppose that is part what I think strength is to me. Strength and true power isn't found in admiration but when we can accept ourselves including our flaws and weaknesses and yet be proud to be who we are because it is what ultimately makes us into who we are.

Interesting perspective!
I don't know... I believe admiration can be many things and it can arise in different forms. People can admire you and still be equal to you, I mean they can admire you for solving a problem in a time of need, or staying cool under stress, but none of that has to imply that the admiration comes from a place of weakness and subordinance. I admire certain things my friends do, certain traits they have, but none of that means that I feel somehow below them. Perhaps I feel below them in that area they achieved something in or maybe I feel like I can do a certain thing less well than they do, but this is more a difference of strengths than subordinance in my opinion.

I personally don't believe accepting all your flaws and weaknesses and being proud of it makes you strong, I wouldn't say that avoidance or subordinace makes someone weak or that being very unhealthy (whatever that might constitute) makes someone somehow less strong. Strength is something we all possess, and we display this strength in different ways, some people might work against their own strengths, focusing too much instead on what they can't do. Whatever people do never detracts from how strong they are; it's just there and everyone harnesses it differently. We all have a capacity to resist and endure, whenever we harness it is a big part our choice and another part is related to habits and genetic make-up.

Sorry if I focused too much on semantics here, I recognize your perspective, I mean it's my fault if I don't clearly state whatever it is I meant, but I want to achieve some form of common understanding, so therefore I'm kind of giving some more of my perspective one the things you have described. I believe are nuances are important anyways, especially in ideas relating to psychology. Kind of ironic, because I didn't see how nuanced differences of the definition of respect could be.

@drmiller100
Apologies, I meant to say: "how come you don't care really care that much for your logical abilities anymore?" Maybe I should rephrase it; How come you are not as proud of or don't find your logical abilities to be as much deserving of your pride compared to before?

 

[BigCat]

@BigCat
Would there be a specific reason you don't think of yourself highly? Apologies if that might be a rather personal reason.

I've had an anxiety disorder for who knows how long that's only been treated in the last few weeks. I also felt like who I am was not socially acceptable as I was frequently shat on as a child for being myself, asking questions, etc. I grew up in a religious, conservative environment, and my idea of just wanting to punch all the snot nosed little shits as a child that were being mean to me just wasn't going to fly. I didn't really fit in either.

I also think religion is indeed a factor as it made me modest to a fault. The other thing is I deliberately downplay a lot of my skills unless they're needed, but I avoid claiming I can indeed do something. This is so I don't have unrealistic expectations put onto me. People seem to think if I say I can do it, I can do it 110%. Maybe it's how I talk. However, I'm far more confident around friends as I know they won't judge me unfairly.

However, I can see this starting to change in the next few weeks as the effects of my medication work their way in.

 

[Fumetsu]

When I am able to ignore the noise, negativity, and dismissal of everyone else and do what they claim can't be done

I am surrounded by " intellectuals". If they don't know how to do something it can't be done. I realize that they specialize in many things that I do not and so sometimes I just go with what they say.

I do, however, have more tenacity than all of them put together. When they say " It isn't working the way it's supposed to-it's impossible!" I'll roll up my sleeves, shove them asside and FIND a way-no matter how unorthodox-and leave them with their jaws on the floor.

This matches with everyone's veiws of me-apparently. My close freinds who have ever had a dream with me in ut say this is what happens; there is some serious problem, usually a burglary or castle seige. They yell for my help and I respond with an irriated " I don't care/ leave me alone." As the situation gets more and more dire they plead even harder
" Seriously! They're going to murder us all!"
I say " OMG I don't. Care!" And turn up my headphones. Eventually comes the moment when the intruders get on MY nerves, I get up, slam my headphones down, effortlessly kill them all and with words like " THERE! Now can I have some piece and fucking quiet?!" Go back to whatever I had been doing.

I have to say it is quite flattering.

As for the second question; yes, all the time. I always thought it would be so amazing to hear " I'm proud of you." from parents but it was so disappointing. All I could say was "Why?"

Often times it's honestly just insulting. The other day my husband tolled me he was proud of me for doing the damned laundry

" Well, you were sick and really didn't want to do it." I should have had the entire house clean, a few pieces put together ( I'm a professional artist) and had a five course dinner made whether I wanted to or not. I should never settle for what is impressive for the average person. That doesn't cut it fir me.

 

[Entropic]

Hmm.. yeah perhaps respect is not the word for what I intended to convey, but I find pride and self-respect to be somewhere on equal terms in the context I was speaking of. I don't think pride has to be an inflated and false sense of esteem, though. You can be proud of something you have done, yet not necessarily overestimate how much 'pride' you deserve for it. In the end you determine how proud you should be, and that's kind of what I mean with respect; a self-measure of how well you or others are doing. I believe I see what you're getting at, but I'm not really referring to the 'courtesy of respect you extend to everyone including yourself'. I would say that's more recognizing that they are humans too and that you are willing to listen to them and treat them with a sense of decency, unless the way they act makes you act otherwise. I must admit though that I only have a vague or general idea of what this kind of respect entails exactly.

Pride and respect are definitely not equal terms, to me. Pride is typically a self-inflated esteem. I know when I feel prideful in the colloquial sense of self-inflation. It definitely feels like a swelling in the chest and you want to, in the metaphorical sense, pat yourself on the back for it. That's not healthy pride but a false and self-inflated kind of, and typically it's a cover-up for a personal insecurity as to avoid feelings of guilt or shame.

There are also different kinds of pride, where we can have healthy pride by expressing strong boundaries and this can overlap with respect which in many ways is much more closer to esteem, but the colloquial sense of pride does not.

But if we go by your definition of respect it would mean that we have to notice these unique needs in other people. And of course not everyone can respect everyone else's needs. If someone else is desiring of support in the form of encouragement, I won't always be fulfilling their needs exactly the way they want to, either because they might be overtly demanding of this support, or I might just be tired. I can be annoyed at and show a lack of respect at my own needs. If I find that I really want to go and just relax, but I instead decide to put an extra bit of effort into a project so I could finish it, I'm not really respecting my needs.

Respect is when you notice people's needs and also convey clearly that you cannot meet them for whatever reason. You respect the need by virtue of recognizing the need. Specifically, I am talking about relationship needs in this context, not just whatever physical need like staying up for too long. We can all do this and that's fine as long it's not something chronic and a sign of unhealth because it's rather a form of escapism than something done out of passion. Respect is something baseline though some people obviously need to work on improving theirs and one of the way that shows is how they are able to manage themselves.

If I don't respect myself in the sense that I don't feel good about what exactly I am doing and feel bad about what I have done, it doesn't make me 'avoid responsibility'; for starters, it makes me feel incredibly responsible. Often enough I start on taking blame when I feel bad about myself, even blame that I might not be deserving of.
Even though I don't like devolving into a discussion of ' just semantics' isn't the kind of respect you are referring to more of a 'being true to your word' kind of respect. I mean I can feel bad, feel like I don't deserve my own respect and yet, stay true to my word and deliver on promises I've made. Sure it doesn't make things easier, when I feel bad, but it doesn't mean I fail to recognize the value of others. I don't think I have problem recognizing other people's value, because I tend to view others in a positive light and I often feel admiration for other people, but it's much harder when it comes to myself. It's a very personal example, but I think it illustrates my point nonetheless.

Feeling guilt is not the same as taking responsibility. Feelings of guilt do nothing if you do not act on the feelings by making up for what you did. And feeling that you respect yourself is imo also not the same as respecting yourself. Actions dictate respect, not necessarily feelings. I can feel that I respect you and thus value you how much you want, but that means nothing if you are not able to show it in action because that shows a lack of integrity on your end. That you don't feel that you live up to that kind of respect for staying true to your word is another issue, imo, and has more to do with your own self-perception than it per se being related to your ability to be respectful or not. In the end, I look at actions, not kind words, personally.

I sincerely disagree, I've been close to points where I've really wanted to give up on myself, but it never meant I was going to give up on other people. Sure, whenever someone has poor faith in themselves or is lacking in self-respect, he's not going to be the most attractive person to be around.The longer I'm busy typing here, the more I start to believe that our difference of opinion simply lies in what we think respect exactly entails.

I don't think situations like these is quite what I was talking about though. There's a difference between loyalty and loyalty because you think people deserve it, and to just walk over your own boundaries and disrespecting yourself. If you say in an abusive relationship, not only is the abuser disrespecting you for being abusive, but you also disrespect for yourself for choosing to stay. Sometimes we can recognize that other people do deserve to be hold on to because we value them that much, but of course that is also always in relation to how much they are capable of showing that they value us in return. It has to be mutual.

Interesting perspective!
I don't know... I believe admiration can be many things and it can arise in different forms. People can admire you and still be equal to you, I mean they can admire you for solving a problem in a time of need, or staying cool under stress, but none of that has to imply that the admiration comes from a place of weakness and subordinance. I admire certain things my friends do, certain traits they have, but none of that means that I feel somehow below them. Perhaps I feel below them in that area they achieved something in or maybe I feel like I can do a certain thing less well than they do, but this is more a difference of strengths than subordinance in my opinion.

I can't quite understand and get behind your perspective. Admiration always suggests an inequality of power differences and as soon as you express admiration you place yourself in a situation below the person you admire. At least to me, personally. Yes, people can be differently skilled etc., but if you value yourself, you don't feel a need to admire that of others' because you can take pride in your own strengths and weaknesses even if they are objectively inferior to that of somebody else's. As soon as you begin to admire, you think of yourself as inferior in that particular area, and thus also situated below the person you admire. Even if it is in one singular thing. I suppose in essence what I react against is the association of inferiority in the admirer that I can't get behind.

I personally don't believe accepting all your flaws and weaknesses and being proud of it makes you strong, I wouldn't say that avoidance or subordinace makes someone weak or that being very unhealthy (whatever that might constitute) makes someone somehow less strong. Strength is something we all possess, and we display this strength in different ways, some people might work against their own strengths, focusing too much instead on what they can't do. Whatever people do never detracts from how strong they are; it's just there and everyone harnesses it differently. We all have a capacity to resist and endure, whenever we harness it is a big part our choice and another part is related to habits and genetic make-up.

I don't think being subordinate itself makes somebody else weak. There are clear power hierarchies in the world like in the workplace. I am subordinate to my boss, that's how it is. However, it doesn't mean that I also experience myself to be, at a relational level, subordinate; that in terms of how capable we both are, I am inferior. Of course I am less skilled, this is why I am not the boss but the subordinate, but it also doesn't mean I cannot have the skill to become a boss if I work hard and am determined enough to do so. In essence, I believe I have the capacity to be a boss too, and I can also in essence, be as good or even better than they are even if that is expressed in my own unique and individual way by catering to my own personal strengths as in tapping into my individual talents. You are talking about talents here, not strength as in willpower.

I recognize people have different talents and we should always harness our talents and work on our weaknesses, but just because I am weak in an area it does not make me actually weaker but in some ways it can also make me stronger. Weakness in an area is not always a weakness but it can also be a strength. It depends on how you see it and use it.

Sorry if I focused too much on semantics here, I recognize your perspective, I mean it's my fault if I don't clearly state whatever it is I meant, but I want to achieve some form of common understanding, so therefore I'm kind of giving some more of my perspective one the things you have described. I believe are nuances are important anyways, especially in ideas relating to psychology. Kind of ironic, because I didn't see how nuanced differences of the definition of respect could be.

It's ok. I mean, you can think your way, but this is how I see it anyway. This way of always being equally connected and not seeing power differences is one of the things I really struggle to understand when it comes to 6s.

 

[birdsintrees]

The general pattern I seem to notice is a lack of either concern for or simply attention to what other's think of you. When it comes to self-respect (or whether you take pride you take in being yourself) things seem to differ for everyone. Though I don't think we can speak of a general sense of pride in oneself; it seems more like you feel you have to work hard or at the least change something to be proud of yourself.

Pride itself isn't really on my radar. Sure, I have moments where I feel like I've accomplished something but it is fleeting. I move on from it and don't feel any further need to analyse or discuss or share it.

There's this idea I had yesterday

<idea>

Now of course it's abstract Enneagram talk and it is a freshly baked idea out of the oven that is my head, so it might not fit you and it can simply be inaccurate in general. So what do you think about this - would you say it's accurate?

No. I don't play dirty. Integrity is important to me. I don't feel I don't deserve pride, it just isn't a big thing for me. Pride is a form of validation that I don't connect with.

If my anger is triggered and later realise that I was a little on the angry side and hurt someone disproportionately by that, I apologise and strive to not do that again. And that's that.

I only now realize that what I've said might be interpreted in a couple of different ways, but what I was intending to convey is a very broad definition of respect; a sense of pride, feeling good about yourself, not being uncomfortable with what you are, viewing yourself as a decent human being.

What exactly would this respect constitute for you?

I'd have to seriously harm someone without any justification to not view myself as a decent human being.

I generally feel just fine about myself. Idk how else to explain that

Why would people admiring you for 'just making things work even when the odds are stacked against you' be a form of misplaced admiration?

Making things work isn't an accomplishment that requires admiration. It just means you moved forward and got on with things. Curing cancer requires admiration.