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First of all let me say, that I realize I'm talking about enneagram on the MBTI forum, not that that is exactly a no no, but they don't always compare, however I feel like my issues with 3's is coming more from an INFJ place then from a 4 place (I'm a INFJ 4) I also want to say I was really active on here for a few weeks during the winter, but once spring hit I just wanted to be out in my garden. So I basically just dropped off from my account here. I feel a little guilty coming back, this is supposed to be a community after all, but I know I'll just come and go like that. Sorry in advance.

So my rant. In many ways I am in a good place, better than I've ever been in many ways. So that's good, and I don't want to sound ungrateful for that. Part of what's making my life so stable is the job that I have. I am so grateful for that too, and really there is so much I really enjoy about it. I really like the work, and I really like the people I work with, but I'm starting to get really sick of the way things are ran. I don't want to go off on too many tangents right now, I think the thing that's really getting to more than the usual crap is my boss (a type 3). Which on the one hand she's one of the best bosses I've had, but like on another I'm losing admiration for her and that really bothers me.

I feel like I could go off on specifics, but ultimately I'm angry and I'm dissapointed. I had a bi annual development talk with her recently, and I really didn't care for a lot of what she said. It truly felt very unfair and like we're being held to an unfair standard. And sure that's bothering me, but I feel like it's more than that.

I think it's a 3 thing. This feeling feels kind of familiar. And when I look at it in a general sense, I feel like it's a feeling I get with 3's. When I start to see past their facade. When you realize that they were all style and no substance. Or could talk the talk but can't actually walk the walk. I might be a 4, and am no stranger to being dramatic, but I feel like being an INFJ I really don't have patients for bullshit. I feel like I can see what the truth is and I want to deal with that, rather putting on rose colored glasses. I think this really causes a rift between me and 3's.

I had a falling out a little over a year ago with a 3 that had been one of my best friends since we were in school. We both came from shitty families and we both suffered greatly for it. Yes we would commiserate over our toxic home life, but she was also witty and intelligent. We could make each other laugh, had so many similar passions... I felt like she was one of the few people who really got me. I thought she understood my pain because it was so similar to her pain. Well long story short I rented a room from her when her and her husband bought their first home, and I found out how she really was. It wasn't so much that everything was lie, but more like it was just a shell, a very appealing, attractive shell, but what was beneath the shell was nothing but rot. I had known her to be kinda shitty towards her sweet and gentle 9 of a husband when she was stressed, and I think a few of her parenting ideas (she had a toddler at the time) were a bit misguided, but like in a quirky way, she meant no harm right? And like I said I don't want to go off on too many tangents, but like slowly the shell that I loved so much started to crumble. I was around her all the time – we lived together. I could start to see the cracks.... I don't know how to describe it, it was like a slow burn broken heart – not a door slam. Just little by little there was one more behavior I couldn't write off as stress, one more action that I knew was deliberate and couldn't pretend otherwise... until finally I just knew she was an awful person. That she was abusive and toxic. She basically became her mother, and there was nothing I could do about it. She really didn't feel shame for the things she did or the way she acted or how miserable she was making everyone near her... like ever her pets were suffering from her. She only seemed sorry that I couldn't make any more excuses for her, and that I refused to pretend I wasn't seeing what I was seeing.

I really don't think about her too much now. We're civil if we run into each other, I'm not afraid of her or feel awkward because much like a door slam, she's dead to me. But unlike a door slam it wasn't sudden. I know as an INFJ, we try and try and try until we suddenly can't try anymore. But this was different. When we try or at least when I do, I do it because I still believe there's something to save. Once it dawned on me that I knew she was actually horrible I didn't want to believe it. That's not to say I was in denial, I guess it was just a slow coming to terms that I could never feel the same way about this person. I don't think she was always this way and lying to me. I think it just happened over time, like maybe there was a point where this could have turned around, but I knew once it dawned on me, that there was no use thinking about that, because she has already reached the point of no return and that was it.

I feel bad for her husband, who's has basically become an alcoholic to deal with the abuse. I feel bad for her kid(s) (she's had a baby since our falling out) everyone who knows her knows her kid already isn't normal and she probably never will be. I feel bad for their pets who have developed nervous ticks like ripping out all their hair from the anxiety that permeates through that house. But I also feel bad for the person I once knew and died a long time ago. My friend died some point. She must have been dying for years. So was I, in a way but I kept fighting. She did not. She gave in and slowly died. She let the pressure of adulthood crush her (I mean it cruses us all, especially my generation and younger) but what really crushed her was her pride. She grew up poor, like me, but had found so many other riches, and still they were not enough. She has a wonderful, sweet, gentle, drop dead gorgeous husband who supports her being a stay at home mom, she had what would have been colorful, curious, out going child who is already socially inept and emotionally unequipped from being perpetually ignored and placed in front of a screen (like literally at no point while awake not watching a screen most days), an actual house... but it was never enough for her. She had the makings of a really fun, smart, interesting passionate person, but she only developed it enough for people to like her. That's just such a 3 thing I think. They figure out how to come off charming, so often never realizing that being a truly authentic and genuine person is quite charming on it's own. They often never develop their gifts all the way, do they? Just enough so most people like what they see. Barf.

Anyway, I realizing that this is the feeling I'm having towards my boss (she's no where near as awful as my friend, but still) and I'm realizing where this feeling is going and how it will ultimately end. She'll become dead to me, because I've finally seeing the facade for what it is. I disagree with many of the things she said in the evaluation. And I feel like a lot of the goals I am not hitting are from the way she runs things, as she promises too much of our team to make herself look good, but we get saddled with the blame when we can't reach them. I also feel like if I pretended everything was happy and wonderful and didn't push back when presented with the impossible goals placed upon us, then it wouldn't matter so much that I wasn't achieving them. Because I'm still learning (I have only been doing this a year) and I'm giving it my best – and really I am. But because I don't exactly play along, I wouldn't say we butt heads or anything like that, I just ask too many questions that highlight the holes in their logic, etc so I'm probably gonna get a somewhat shitty review. Even though everyone else is struggling and stressed to meet our higher ups demands, and we all agree they are asking too much and the most we can do is our best (which WILL fall short of what's being asked) because I realize what they are asking won't work, I'll get a lame PE. I think my team is great, and really rises to occasion. I see however how stressed most of them are, how many are considering leaving a job they use to love.... like I just can't nod my head and say sure thing I'll tell you whatever you want to hear. I want there to be a better way of doing things. I want my coworkers and myself to love their jobs again. I want to not piss off and stress out other departments because our branch can't bother being considerate, or take their concerns seriously.

I dunno, basically it's really hard for me to respect and admire anyone who puts looking good above the feelings and quality of life of others. And I'm really bothered that I'm feeling this way. It's getting me really bummed out, and I just had to go off about it.

Thanks for listening and please share your thoughts, feeling and similar stories, I'd love to relate to people further about how I am feeling etc.
 

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That was the longest post I've been able to read in awhile! So, I guess that says something! Lately my brain has been turning off halfway through long posts, which is incredibly hypocritical of me, seeing as how I've written some epic posts. :)

Anyway.

A few thoughts.

If she is a 3, and a stay-at-home mom....that alone makes me shake my head a little. Do you know her MB type? My sister is an ENTJ 3, and she's a stay at home mom. She is struggling with severe depression, which she *sometimes* takes out on her kids. There's a MBTI blogger, also ENTJ 3, who talks about her intense problems with being a stay at home mom. A 3 really needs access to success and other adults. When their main focus is their children, they can get a little wonky about their parenting. I'm not saying they can't do it. I'm just saying it's probably harder for them than certain other types for whom it would come more naturally.

It might be stressful for her having a husband who's a 9, simply because that's her direction of disintegration. If she meets him on his turf, peacefully and abandoning her own agenda, that's actually not healthy. She COULD integrate to 6 and establish a loyalty to her family unit, however. But maybe that's what she's trying to do by being a stay at home mom?

I think different people in different situations can look "awful" simply because they are out of their element. For instance, I have been a quite awful person at various points in my life, simply because my character was not jiving with my environment or what was expected of me. That causes people to break down. And sometimes they cling to the situation that's causing them to break down because they think they should.

Just be careful, I would say, of slinging all this negativity at someone, even in your own mind. Try to remember the good things about her, even if they're in the past. Focus on her positives. You really have to expect the best from people if you want to see it. You expect the worst....you get the worst.
 

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I realize you were trying to talk about your boss, but all my ideas were about your friend instead. Hope that's OK!
 

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Coming back to write more!

An "awful" person is just an unhealthy person. So, it would be more appropriate, I think, to say someone is "behaving awfully." When I, as a 2, go on a "let me take over your life and save you" trip, I give off some pretty bad vibes. But, you know what? The type I find myself responding to negatively are 4s. My aunt, my sister. I just want to slap them. The pity party just never seems to end, when they're in an unhealthy place. I don't think 4s realize how their misery rubs off on other people. It's oppressive. And since they don't even want to feel better when they get like that, because they're sucking on their despair like it's a lozenge, there's absolutely nothing you can do but be a captive audience.

So, I feel about 4s the way you're currently feeling about 3s. And I know that, as a 4, you could say many, many things in defense, or by way of explanation, and they would be totally valid. Just as I could do for being a 2. But I guess that doesn't change the way I've made people feel, the ways in which I've hurt them.

All the disintegrated 8s rotting away in prison could state their case. All the disintegrated 7s buried under their addictions could state their case. All the socially paralyzed 5s locked away in their homes could state their case. Etc etc.

That is why forgiveness is so important. We must forgive one another. And we must forgive one another perpetually.
 

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When I realize my disillusionment over someone, I cut them out of my life and move on. Much like a door-slam. Especially if it's someone who has heard my vulnerabilities or knows aspects about me that I've chosen to be open about - but then turns on me or hits me at a vulnerable point. If I let you in (even for a short period) and then you stab me with a knife, that door will be sealed shut never to be open again.

Then I go on to ponder society and why humans are the way they are and think the way they do and why everyone doesn't lead life with empathy first. ... My relationship with humanity is love/hate.

I'm sorry if this added nothing to the topic :tongue: wanted to vent about disillusionment and my disappointment in society.
 

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I hope I didn't come off as holier-than-thou, because, believe me, I have so been there. I have my fair share of alienations under my belt. :heart:
 

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Discussion Starter #8
If she is a 3, and a stay-at-home mom....that alone makes me shake my head a little. Do you know her MB type? My sister is an ENTJ 3, and she's a stay at home mom. She is struggling with severe depression, which she *sometimes* takes out on her kids. There's a MBTI blogger, also ENTJ 3, who talks about her intense problems with being a stay at home mom. A 3 really needs access to success and other adults. When their main focus is their children, they can get a little wonky about their parenting. I'm not saying they can't do it. I'm just saying it's probably harder for them than certain other types for whom it would come more naturally.

It might be stressful for her having a husband who's a 9, simply because that's her direction of disintegration. If she meets him on his turf, peacefully and abandoning her own agenda, that's actually not healthy. She COULD integrate to 6 and establish a loyalty to her family unit, however. But maybe that's what she's trying to do by being a stay at home mom?

I think different people in different situations can look "awful" simply because they are out of their element. For instance, I have been a quite awful person at various points in my life, simply because my character was not jiving with my environment or what was expected of me. That causes people to break down. And sometimes they cling to the situation that's causing them to break down because they think they should.

Just be careful, I would say, of slinging all this negativity at someone, even in your own mind. Try to remember the good things about her, even if they're in the past. Focus on her positives. You really have to expect the best from people if you want to see it. You expect the worst....you get the worst.
Well, firstly I agree that stay at home was not a good choice for her. She's and ENFP, and I knew the isolation of that in of and itself would be bad for her. And you're right she really doesn't love kids as much as she thinks she does, her child was a far second to any adult attention she could get. It was her idea to be a stay at home mom, and truthfully I think she just didn't want to be an adult anymore so this was a good excuse (at least in her eyes) to escape the real world while still keeping up appearances. And yes she definitely had depression. But I can say from being raised by a narcissist, as well as other experiences with narcissists, she is a narcissist. She is very toxic and it's not just me and my beef with her, her whole friend circle at this point sees her as a lost cause. Her husband is a 9 sure, he could use the occasional fire lit under his ass but for the most part he's actually very responsible. I just think after high school and college where she was recognized as being smart and gifted, her pride could not accept that she was just a regular person, working a boring regular job.... anyway i could keep going, but trust me,in her case I'm not being negative. she is a toxic person and myself and all my friends know it at this point. I've asked her prior to our falling out to seek help for her depression whenever it would come up, but she insisted she knew best and had a grip on things. Although anyone who spent some time with her now that she has a house and a kid can easily see past her exterior and is horrified. When I was still living with her I had more than one guest, after spending time with her/ seeing the way she was w/ her kid, flat out tell me that they will never visit me in her home again. They were so freaked out by what they saw.
 

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Well, firstly I agree that stay at home was not a good choice for her. She's and ENFP, and I knew the isolation of that in of and itself would be bad for her. And you're right she really doesn't love kids as much as she thinks she does, her child was a far second to any adult attention she could get. It was her idea to be a stay at home mom, and truthfully I think she just didn't want to be an adult anymore so this was a good excuse (at least in her eyes) to escape the real world while still keeping up appearances. And yes she definitely had depression. But I can say from being raised by a narcissist, as well as other experiences with narcissists, she is a narcissist. She is very toxic and it's not just me and my beef with her, her whole friend circle at this point sees her as a lost cause. Her husband is a 9 sure, he could use the occasional fire lit under his ass but for the most part he's actually very responsible. I just think after high school and college where she was recognized as being smart and gifted, her pride could not accept that she was just a regular person, working a boring regular job.... anyway i could keep going, but trust me,in her case I'm not being negative. she is a toxic person and myself and all my friends know it at this point. I've asked her prior to our falling out to seek help for her depression whenever it would come up, but she insisted she knew best and had a grip on things. Although anyone who spent some time with her now that she has a house and a kid can easily see past her exterior and is horrified. When I was still living with her I had more than one guest, after spending time with her/ seeing the way she was w/ her kid, flat out tell me that they will never visit me in her home again. They were so freaked out by what they saw.
So sad to hear all that. :sad:
 
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When I realize my disillusionment over someone, I cut them out of my life and move on. Much like a door-slam. Especially if it's someone who has heard my vulnerabilities or knows aspects about me that I've chosen to be open about - but then turns on me or hits me at a vulnerable point. If I let you in (even for a short period) and then you stab me with a knife, that door will be sealed shut never to be open again.

Then I go on to ponder society and why humans are the way they are and think the way they do and why everyone doesn't lead life with empathy first. ... My relationship with humanity is love/hate.

I'm sorry if this added nothing to the topic :tongue: wanted to vent about disillusionment and my disappointment in society.
So eloquently put, and equally applicable to myself in every way...
 
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