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Discussion Starter #1
For those who know ENFJ's.

Do you tend to get caught up in their happiness?

More importantly ...

Do you feel the sadness when they're sad?

Can you ever tell when an ENFJ is "faking" happiness?

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For ENFJ's

When you're "happy", are you really happy, or just pretending?

When you're sad ... do you withdraw to keep others from feeling sad with you?

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QUEEN PEEN
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I can read my ENFJs like a damn book. It's not hard to tell when they're faking it... at all. When my ENFJs cry, I hear them out and stay strong for them. Their strong feelings don't sway the strength I feel that I have to have for them. When my ENFJs are happy, we're a bunch of goofy, giggly nutballs :p
 

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I can read my ENFJs like a damn book. It's not hard to tell when they're faking it... at all. When my ENFJs cry, I hear them out and stay strong for them. Their strong feelings don't sway the strength I feel that I have to have for them. When my ENFJs are happy, we're a bunch of goofy, giggly nutballs :p
I made this thread after spending 3 hours forcing my mom to understand that I have this thing called feelings and that I've always had them.

I asked her if she ever wondered why I used to punch walls and doors as a kid.

And she said "No. I didn't."

Heh. She did admit that being around unemotional men all her life made her completely oblivious to the fact that men can feel emotions.

I kinda felt validated. But she didn't really understand anything till I finally relented and lied, like always that "I'm fine."
 

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QUEEN PEEN
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I made this thread after spending 3 hours forcing my mom to understand that I have this thing called feelings and that I've always had them.

I asked her if she ever wondered why I used to punch walls and doors as a kid.

And she said "No. I didn't."

Heh. She did admit that being around unemotional men all her life made her completely oblivious to the fact that men can feel emotions.

I kinda felt validated. But she didn't really understand anything till I finally relented and lied, like always that "I'm fine."
I'm sorry that you have to fight to be heard by your family. That does not seem the least bit ideal to me. You're a very strong person for hanging in there despite the the fact that feelings aren't well-regarded in your family. *hug*
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I'm sorry that you have to fight to be heard by your family. That does not seem the least bit ideal to me. You're a very strong person for hanging in there despite the the fact that feelings aren't well-regarded in your family. *hug*
*hugs back* Thank you.

I just sometimes wonder if there's something seriously wrong with me.

Her first reaction to my sharing my inner thoughts with her was "I don't know how to help you. Talk to your family physician and set up an appointment with a counsellor." My sister said the exact same thing 2 weeks ago that "I don't know what you need and there might be something wrong in my approach to providing you with the help you're looking for. Maybe it's time to go talk to a counsellor."

I had a doctor's appointment yesterday [got told that I need surgery on my left knee, otherwise the disability will get worse] and came back extremely depressed. And no one has actually bothered to talk to me about it. The reaction is "Give him 3-4 days on his own to figure things out." And tomorrow they're off on a family trip to Buffalo ... they wanted me to go with them --- but when I said that I have severe pain in my knee and that I need to be able to rest before my employment workshop starts on Monday again, I got the feeling that I've hurt them by refusing to go. At the same time, it felt like they're thinking that I'm using my knee as an excuse to not go.

Now, I'm gonna be stuck alone at home [not that I mind being alone]. And I feel like I'm feeling something wrong for feeling like it's some kind of neglect. I would've gone if it was just a day long trip. But 2 days is a bit much in my knee condition + I have a ton of work to do for my workshop. I don't mean to over-react ... but sometimes it's little things like these that really bother me. I feel selfish expecting others to be considerate.

I feel like I'm going a little insane. I just need to be heard by my own family - but they're not a bad bunch. I think they try. But maybe I've made myself just a little too complex by hiding beneath all the "I'm fine" lies. But sometimes, it's just nice to be understood without having to express it. I dunno. I'm rambling.
 

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QUEEN PEEN
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*hugs back* Thank you.

I just sometimes wonder if there's something seriously wrong with me.

Her first reaction to my sharing my inner thoughts with her was "I don't know how to help you. Talk to your family physician and set up an appointment with a counsellor." My sister said the exact same thing 2 weeks ago that "I don't know what you need and there might be something wrong in my approach to providing you with the help you're looking for. Maybe it's time to go talk to a counsellor."

I had a doctor's appointment yesterday [got told that I need surgery on my left knee, otherwise the disability will get worse] and came back extremely depressed. And no one has actually bothered to talk to me about it. The reaction is "Give him 3-4 days on his own to figure things out." And tomorrow they're off on a family trip to Buffalo ... they wanted me to go with them --- but when I said that I have severe pain in my knee and that I need to be able to rest before my employment workshop starts on Monday again, I got the feeling that I've hurt them by refusing to go. At the same time, it felt like they're thinking that I'm using my knee as an excuse to not go.

Now, I'm gonna be stuck alone at home [not that I mind being alone]. And I feel like I'm feeling something wrong for feeling like it's some kind of neglect. I would've gone if it was just a day long trip. But 2 days is a bit much in my knee condition + I have a ton of work to do for my workshop. I don't mean to over-react ... but sometimes it's little things like these that really bother me. I feel selfish expecting others to be considerate.

I feel like I'm going a little insane. I just need to be heard by my own family - but they're not a bad bunch. I think they try. But maybe I've made myself just a little too complex by hiding beneath all the "I'm fine" lies. But sometimes, it's just nice to be understood without having to express it. I dunno. I'm rambling.
They have a hard time understanding feelings, and you have a hard time understanding how they can't possibly understand ;) It kind of reminds me of me and my father's side of the family a bit. They're just different from us. It's not a bad thing, they just genuinely don't understand how to help us though they may really want to. Suggesting counseling is their way of making sure we get the appropriate help we need since the counselors are professionals and they are practically emotionally lifeless :p I've learned to kind of see the beauty in the differences I share with my family. They care about my feelings, they just don't know what do with them. It sounds like your family is the exact same way.

I wouldn't think too much about not going on the trip. Just let them know that you love them and assure them that you wish you could be there with them. Maybe even call them and see how they're doing while they're down in Buffalo ;) I bet they'd appreciate that.
 

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I don't mean to over-react ... but sometimes it's little things like these that really bother me. I feel selfish expecting others to be considerate.

I feel like I'm going a little insane. I just need to be heard by my own family - but they're not a bad bunch. I think they try. But maybe I've made myself just a little too complex by hiding beneath all the "I'm fine" lies. But sometimes, it's just nice to be understood without having to express it. I dunno. I'm rambling.
I feel this way at times too. Sometimes I just wish my family could understand what bothers me and why, without me having to explain/express it. It is really bad when I try to explain myself to my mom...yet I'm so overcome by how lousy I may feel inside... that I start speaking too passionately, too harshly, too emotionally... that she gets overwhelmed and tries to help by "downplaying" my feelings, which unfortunately makes me feel even worse, despite that not being her intention.

I have been reading up on how other types handle sadness/negativity and thinking deeply about how I could handle these situations better. I realized that it would be nice to find ways to cheer myself up without having to depend on my family to be there for me...they do support and care, but not always in ways that I want them to show it. None of my family members have a "feeling-dominant" personality, so as much as I want them to understand/relate/accept my strong negative feelings...I am starting to think this might be too difficult of an expectation for them. They can understand my feelings (thankfully cuz they are feelers), but I don't think they get why its so strong. That "intensity," they cannot relate to. And I'm starting to feel like its wrong to "expect" them to relate to it.

That's why, from now on, I want to do my best to lessen the impact strong negative feelings have on me. I will probably always have the desire to want others, especially my family, to understand the intensity of such feelings, but it really drains them and it drains me when I can't find relief in their words. I am still learning on what kind of ways I should do this. I think one way is to physically take care of myself. If I am having a bad day where people have been rude to me, I think the first thing I need to do is rest or even take a nap, because then when I wake up, I will usually feel much better. It is kind of simplistic, but I think that might be a good change for me, versus how I used to handle it... I would stay up as long as possible, dwelling on the situations I found myself in, while feeding more negative thoughts to my head.

Mainly...lots of rest and time...perhaps some good music and doing the little things which help me experience positive feelings more often is what I think can help this ENFJ not let negative emotions get the best of her anymore. Of course, while still being true to herself... not faking happiness, but taking extra care to not fuel darkness either...
 

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Do you tend to get caught up in their happiness?

Yes, I love y'all guys because you all know exactly what to say in order to put this lil' goofy smile on my face. Having said that, I dislike it when people actively try to control my emotions; trying to ramrod your happy down my throat (even if you don't mean to) leads to me mentally pulling away from you.

Do you feel the sadness when they're sad?


No, I don't tend to but that's me lacking empathy more than anything else. You do send of very clear visual signals when you are sad however.

Can you ever tell when an ENFJ is "faking" happiness?

Yep, all you need to do is wait for the room to clear of other people. The expressions you get on your face alone are completely different to what they are when engaging with others.

EDIT [AFTER HAVING READ THREAD]: Jawz, as an ISTP I can wholeheartedly say that you're either good at picking up emotions or you are not. If you are not then it really is better for people to learn to express emotions in a way in which you can both understand and digest.

It's not always fair to expect other people to understand what you are feeling from little non-verbal cues alone, sometimes the first step in getting validation is actually admitting that you have a problem. I know talking about your innermost feelings is hard, we might tell ourselves it's because 'it's not their problem' or 'they wouldn't understand', but at the end of the day we just don't like opening ourselves up and admitting that we're a lot more vulnerable and needy than we act. In my case it's a strong case of being too stubborn to rely on others.

I'm going to strike a guess here that everytime you do decide to embark on explaining your feelings you instantly feel guilty, that you pre-emptively pick up on their upset reaction and instantly assume that you are burdening them. The idea that yourself, someone who you consider to be a support to whomever needs it, actually is the one who is now asking for help is blasphemy.

I feel like a hypocrite for saying this but I'm going to say it anyway, the point of family and close friends is that they're the people who have to help you pick up your shit, come wind, rain or shine. It's not a choice, it's an obligation; this relationship works because if the tables we're turned you'd be expected to do the exact same thing. If one of your family members were in your position how would you feel if they were trying to hide the problem for you? Wouldn't you want to do all that is in your power to help them?

I'm not going to sit here and say 'Jawz, if you tell your family exactly how you feel right now they will come immediately to your aid and solve all your shit', nor am I going to guarantee that you'll get the exact response or validation you expect. Sadly, that's not the way in which the world always works. However, I still don't think you can write them off without doing all that is feasibly in your power to get the message across that you need help - at the end of the day, it is you alone which can overcome your hang ups and admit loud and clear that you have a problem. And god, I feel like such a filthy hypocrite for saying that :/

[and I apologize if I made any false assertions with that post]
 

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Well you have tried to tell them and they shut you down which is when you lie. You don't start off with a lie that you are fine. So no, it is not selfish. This is totally on them for not being very supportive as a family should be and not taking your needs into consideration. That is just sad in my opinion and you have every right to feel wronged by them. All it would take is taking a MOMENT to consider you, to support you and it would make a world of difference. That's it. Is that really so hard for them to do? Apparently it is for some people. You really have no reason to feel bad for it. I am only sorry that they treat you that way. I don't think they try. They haven't tried to understand you at all. This is my opinion. It all just sounds very selfish to me. Is it any wonder you feel the need to lie? Because they can't handle it when you actually tell the truth so there is no point. They don't know how to deal with it when the answer is SO simple. If I were you, I would conceal it as well. They are not trustworthy.

As to your questions:

Do you tend to get caught up in their happiness? Sometimes unless I'm feeling down.

More importantly ...

Do you feel the sadness when they're sad? Oh yes, but I feel everyone's sadness when they are sad.

Can you ever tell when an ENFJ is "faking" happiness? He rarely ever fakes happiness. It's hard for me to even think of when he has. I guess he has put on a pleasant face when he has to but he is always real with me and those he's close to. I can tell when he is just being polite if that is what you mean and he is secretly annoyed inside.
 

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*hugs to Jawz and IluvHSJ* I'm so sorry that you can't feel like you can't express your frustrations with your families and friends, especially the clueless Thinker types. I am one of those, and it's frustrating that my ENFJ friend is so supportive to me but I can't be the same in return. Maybe this will help? It's a glimpse of what goes on my end when my friend is upset:

To answer a question in the original post--yes, I can easily tell when he's is upset or unhappy and trying to fake otherwise. He and I keep in touch mostly through email, but I can hear the joy coming through when he shares a hopeful idea, an insight, or just something he loved about his day. When he's unhappy, that joy isn't there (even though he explicitly expresses his upset only rarely). His emails are shorter, more factual, and it's less of a two-way conversation where he builds on my ideas and invites me to builds on his. He's there, I'm here, but our usual synergy is missing and he can't fake that. He may not realize it, but it's a huge red flag and recognizing it is easy.

That said, being a clueless Thinker, I find it a lot harder to actually help my friend out of the dark moods. Maybe this is a limitation of not being face to face (but probably more of me being a clueless Thinker), but I feel like my tools are limited and straightforward--basically, variations on "how are you feeling? I'm here if you want to talk about things that are bothering you." He'll usually give me the classic "I'm fine" response mentioned above, but he's clearly not fine and I feel stuck. To me, if he doesn't want--or feels like he can't--to talk to me about it, I don't want to nag or pry or intrude when he's dealing with enough already. But if he's in a bad (or just not good) place, it sucks that he can't be honest with me about it, and it's even worse that he's going through a tough time and he isn't being helped.

I do what I can indirectly (which isn't much, admittedly). I try to send links he'll think are funny or interesting. I'll relay anecdotes of his acquaintances, especially heartwarming or purely ridiculous stories. I'll ask for his advice about people we both know. Or I'll try to concoct future plans ("Remember that Turkish restaurant near the bridge? Andy says they've revamped their menu. Next time you're here, we should try it...") I have a sneaking suspicion that none of these things really work, but it'd be worse if I didn't do any of them at all. But I do wonder if he feels annoyed at me at these times but is too polite to say so.

And then one day, the synergy is back and I know he's okay again. But I always wonder if I could have done more, done better, for him.

Falling Leaves said:
It's not always fair to expect other people to understand what you are feeling from little non-verbal cues alone, sometimes the first step in getting validation is actually admitting that you have a problem. I know talking about your innermost feelings is hard, we might tell ourselves it's because 'it's not their problem' or 'they wouldn't understand', but at the end of the day we just don't like opening ourselves up and admitting that we're a lot more vulnerable and needy than we act.
I have to agree wholeheartedly with this. I understand wanting to not be a burden, or that talking about oneself might feel selfish to an ENFJ. But for someone less emotionally adept (to be blunt, me) watching a friend who is clearly in pain but not expressing it--indeed, lying about it when I want to help--is a burden anyway. Because while I'll never have his (and more broadly, the ENFJ) skill for reaching out to people, the love is the same. At times like this, it feels like my friend cuts himself off from the support he so willingly gives to others. And in case it must be said, that's wrong on approximately a kazillion levels.
 

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When you're "happy", are you really happy, or just pretending?

Hmmm... I seldom... and I mean, very seldom fake happiness. People usually identify me as the quiet broody type but when I'm happy, well, it's mostly because I am genuinely happy or excited inside. I can pretend to be happy or at a more positive state of mind but I need to be convinced to, and by that, I mean: what for?

If it's for a reason I understand, empathize or can somehow relate to, I'd be okay with doing it but if it's obligatory, I would appear less effective at it.

When you're sad ... do you withdraw to keep others from feeling sad with you?

In a certain way yes. I'll try to be alone, think, sleep... sleep more... think and just stay in my thoughts for quite a long time. I want to be alone in these times but for some odd reason, my space keeps getting invaded for some odd reason.

Fate does not like me brooding alone...
 

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Discussion Starter #15
long live the happy days of Jawz...you should write poetry today...:)
When I'm happy, my poetry usually goes like this:

I like you
You like me
We like each other
So let's party

:p

Not powerful stuff by any means. I need to be in a really dark and depressed mood to really be creative
 

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oh yes! im gonna talk from my experience with my ENFJ best friend....when the are happy theyll pull you up to cloud nine...and dance and sing and fool around like the funny lovable creatures they are. When they are happy, you being happy is just a inevitable thing. When they are sad...this is the hard part...when they are angry-sad (more angry with a bit of sadness) they will definitely pretend to be happy, and most people wont realize...they may not even realize themselves ;) and this is the worst time to ask them...whats wrong, how do you feel....i always get scolded for doing so...there is some deep thinking going on in there...sort of like the introverted phase. But when they are sad-sad then they will tend to be more close to the people they like...they'd spend more time with family and friends and be really lovey-dovey :p but they will try to involve as less people as they can into their sadness, may not show it at all...so when they are happy you are happy....when they are sad, mostly they wont show it, and if they do then oh you cant stop thy heart from falling into the melencholic well they have dug within themselves....and thee ENFJs are beautiful!
 

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Discussion Starter #18
If I look happy I am very happy . I suck at hiding the sadness in my face , So I hide my sadness in my bed at night .
I can relate so well, so well that it hurts. My weakest moments are at night. Always have been.

I rule the day with my sunshine, but the darkness of the night consumes me.
 

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I made this thread after spending 3 hours forcing my mom to understand that I have this thing called feelings and that I've always had them.

I asked her if she ever wondered why I used to punch walls and doors as a kid.

And she said "No. I didn't."

Heh. She did admit that being around unemotional men all her life made her completely oblivious to the fact that men can feel emotions.

I kinda felt validated. But she didn't really understand anything till I finally relented and lied, like always that "I'm fine."
If you really want to change these things you gotta try more than once, but once you managed it will last a lifetime.
 

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When you're "happy", are you really happy, or just pretending?

I can feel happy when I'm in a situation, but as soon as I realise how I'm actually feeling or that I'm hurting because of a past event or through empathy, I can feel my expression rearranging. I can feel that the smile is much more forced, and I don't feel like me. I feel like I'm acting the role of Alina. I like to consider myself a pretty good actress, and I'm pretty good at pretending to be happy when the time calls for it. Proof of this is that even my friends who are most in tune with other people's feelings don't see it. I sometimes think that they have an inkling, but it's gone before they turn it into a coherent suspicion.
Yes. I am often really happy; actually joyful. But then there are times when I am so sick of everything, saddened or angered or tired that I force myself to be happy, smile, and try to let the mood of other people steer me into a convincing state of happiness. Also, it's only retrospectively that I realise how much of my time is spent pretending. I don't always notice it. But, looking back, I can remember how I was feeling and how it affected me.

When you're sad ... do you withdraw to keep others from feeling sad with you?

I refrain from 'infecting' others with my sadness. I still feel as though my friends have enough to be dealing with, and that they don't need my crap, despite constant reassurances of it being otherwise. A friend of mine had lost her mother. I didn't tell her that both my grandparents had died for ages. She only found out when it somehow was dropped in conversation. She was, understandably, a little surprised and shocked. She told me that I was wrong in feeling that I have no right to complain.
So, in a short and concise summary: yes. I pretend that I'm fine. I build up this wall; but it allows a one-sided passing. Other people are allowed in, but I don't let the negativity seep out.

If that makes any sense whatsoever. Please forgive my rambling and incoherent speech. I am tired.
 
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