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Discussion Starter #1
As an 8, there is this visceral reaction I'm sure you're familiar with. If you're not, please let me know.

Much of the time you might be relaxed, doing normal things, going about being friendly or minding your own business. Then something occurs in your environment -- maybe you witness something happen, or someone tells you something, or you realize something retrospectively, -- some kind of information comes in and you snap into this mode. It's almost as if time around you slows down and nothing else in the world matters apart from what is in your mind at that moment. Your face goes flat, you feel blood coursing through your veins, and you're in no mood for jokes. You are taking control of this situation now. It's very very different from your normal state of affairs, it's almost like two different versions of you.

Rather than being unconscious to it -- I'm curious: what do you think causes this for you?
What kind of information coming in triggers you? Enneagram uses a lot of blanket statements like "injustice". Well, what exactly does that mean to you? What about when it comes to standing in for others? Do you think when you step in for someone else some part of you is afraid that whatever you are fighting against might get to you one day if left unchecked?

What is the pattern for who you choose to take under your wing or protect? Are you defending the vulnerable parts of someone else who reminds you of your purest self? Are you defending the person, or what they represent to you personally? Is it something else entirely?

TL;DR: What causes your visceral response to trigger and what do you think you are defending deep down in those situations?
 

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I have no purest self in me. I have no innocence in me.

Innocence is worth protecting in others. There are some in teh world who are young, weak, naive. There are assholes in the world who fuck with the innocent, the weak.

So I'm walking down the road and some dude has a dog on a leash, and he's kicking the hell out of the dog. The dog wants to get away, and can't. I will cook off, and "ask" the guy to quick kicking the dog. This energizes the hell out of me.

There is irony in all this. The guy was kicking the poor dog, now I"m kicking the poor guy.

Who is the real asshole in this situation? Obviously I am.
 

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As an 8, there is this visceral reaction I'm sure you're familiar with. If you're not, please let me know.

Much of the time you might be relaxed, doing normal things, going about being friendly or minding your own business. Then something occurs in your environment -- maybe you witness something happen, or someone tells you something, or you realize something retrospectively, -- some kind of information comes in and you snap into this mode. It's almost as if time around you slows down and nothing else in the world matters apart from what is in your mind at that moment. Your face goes flat, you feel blood coursing through your veins, and you're in no mood for jokes. You are taking control of this situation now. It's very very different from your normal state of affairs, it's almost like two different versions of you.

Rather than being unconscious to it -- I'm curious: what do you think causes this for you?
What kind of information coming in triggers you? Enneagram uses a lot of blanket statements like "injustice". Well, what exactly does that mean to you? What about when it comes to standing in for others? Do you think when you step in for someone else some part of you is afraid that whatever you are fighting against might get to you one day if left unchecked?

What is the pattern for who you choose to take under your wing or protect? Are you defending the vulnerable parts of someone else who reminds you of your purest self? Are you defending the person, or what they represent to you personally? Is it something else entirely?

TL;DR: What causes your visceral response to trigger and what do you think you are defending deep down in those situations?
I've been chewing on this one for a while. I used to rush in to protect the innocent, but I got burned a few times, and I acknowledge that the innocent are not always as innocent as I initially think they are. I used to have a softness for damaged women, until I became more familiar with Borderline Personality Disorder, and Dependent Personality Disorder, and now I tread more carefully.

I still don't like seeing people getting bullied, but I'm never 100% certain which side is innocent, so now I generally just stand in the middle to level the playing field. The world is a tough place, and people need to be stronger, but sometimes people need a little help getting stronger. These days I tend to protect those that want to get stronger, something which I can help them do. I struggle when people want me to fight their battles for them.

The visceral reaction comes in the heat of battle, or at least when I perceive that I'm in the heat of battle. If someone is threatening the world in which I am creating, or would like to live, I tend to take it very personally. The world doesn't need to be like Disneyworld, but I don't like the misuse of power, or people trying to control circumstances or the future for their benefit in a way that affects me negatively. If someone is getting treated unfairly, especially if I feel that I would be treated the same way in their shoes, I get a little bothered, so to speak.
 

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If a situation is unfair to me or someone else.

My stomach curls up and I feel cold but also full of energy. It happens instantly and I can't think anything beyond "This is wrong and I have to stop it."

If someone is being hypocritical to an extreme. For instance I have a neighbor, and she's a 7. We're good friends. She has a girlfriend, her first. Long distance. Long story short, she cheated on her and goes on multiple dates and is open with her girlfriend about it.
Girlfriend cheats on her. I'm sick of telling her it's toxic. When I was smoking with her and she told me "Oh she cheated on me, I want to hurt her because I love her" and when I tell her "Yeah but you cheated first"..."oh, that wasn't cheating I just was going on dates and kissed a few people". Something there just pissed me off on a very deep level and didn't sit right.
Part of it was anger at her hypocrisy. Part of it I realized later is because I want to prevent her from hurting herself.
I just about put the breaker on a full blown rage fest but I tersely told her, "You don't love her, you don't love each other, that's not love. You're just in love with the idea of being in love." It's gotten to the stage any time she mentions her relationship to me apparently I get this "look" on my face.
But I wouldn't give a shit if she wasn't my friend, I'd just listen politely and snigger later.

If I think someone betrays me. I'm very chill and reasonable most of the time so you'd have to do something like throwing me under the proverbial bus in a social situation to a bad degree or backstabbing me willfully.

Accusing me of something I didn't fucking do and not giving me a chance to rationally explain my side of things. If I do something and you explain what I did I'll usually own up and be genuinely apologetic. Fuck. YOU. In the deepest circle of hell if you're just looking for a whipping boy.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I have no purest self in me. I have no innocence in me.

Innocence is worth protecting in others. There are some in the world who are young, weak, naive. There are assholes in the world who fuck with the innocent, the weak.

So I'm walking down the road and some dude has a dog on a leash, and he's kicking the hell out of the dog. The dog wants to get away, and can't. I will cook off, and "ask" the guy to quit kicking the dog. This energizes the hell out of me.

There is irony in all this. The guy was kicking the poor dog, now I"m kicking the poor guy.

Who is the real asshole in this situation? Obviously I am.
Amen.

It's a fine line with 8s, the moral code is hard to define. I think it is a balance between innocent goodness -- pure intent, wide-eyed curiosity, and those who feel weak afraid and hurt on the inside who choose to take it out on others smaller than them because that's the easy grab. I think there is an underlying theme of taking responsibility for oneself and being honest.

At the same time, I can see a frustration and a tough love with the innocent who act too innocent -- because you know deep down, as beautiful as it is, they won't last 5 minutes out there.
I've been chewing on this one for a while. I used to rush in to protect the innocent, but I got burned a few times, and I acknowledge that the innocent are not always as innocent as I initially think they are. I used to have a softness for damaged women, until I became more familiar with Borderline Personality Disorder, and Dependent Personality Disorder, and now I tread more carefully.

I still don't like seeing people getting bullied, but I'm never 100% certain which side is innocent, so now I generally just stand in the middle to level the playing field. The world is a tough place, and people need to be stronger, but sometimes people need a little help getting stronger. These days I tend to protect those that want to get stronger, something which I can help them do. I struggle when people want me to fight their battles for them.

The visceral reaction comes in the heat of battle, or at least when I perceive that I'm in the heat of battle. If someone is threatening the world in which I am creating, or would like to live, I tend to take it very personally. The world doesn't need to be like Disneyworld, but I don't like the misuse of power, or people trying to control circumstances or the future for their benefit in a way that affects me negatively. If someone is getting treated unfairly, especially if I feel that I would be treated the same way in their shoes, I get a little bothered, so to speak.
Yes well said. All too common the story of the 'innocent' damsel in distress with ulterior motives. And yes, better to teach a man to fish -- give them the gift of independence.

If a situation is unfair to me or someone else.

My stomach curls up and I feel cold but also full of energy. It happens instantly and I can't think anything beyond "This is wrong and I have to stop it."

If someone is being hypocritical to an extreme. For instance I have a neighbor, and she's a 7. We're good friends. She has a girlfriend, her first. Long distance. Long story short, she cheated on her and goes on multiple dates and is open with her girlfriend about it.
Girlfriend cheats on her. I'm sick of telling her it's toxic. When I was smoking with her and she told me "Oh she cheated on me, I want to hurt her because I love her" and when I tell her "Yeah but you cheated first"..."oh, that wasn't cheating I just was going on dates and kissed a few people". Something there just pissed me off on a very deep level and didn't sit right.
Part of it was anger at her hypocrisy. Part of it I realized later is because I want to prevent her from hurting herself.
I just about put the breaker on a full blown rage fest but I tersely told her, "You don't love her, you don't love each other, that's not love. You're just in love with the idea of being in love." It's gotten to the stage any time she mentions her relationship to me apparently I get this "look" on my face.
But I wouldn't give a shit if she wasn't my friend, I'd just listen politely and snigger later.

If I think someone betrays me. I'm very chill and reasonable most of the time so you'd have to do something like throwing me under the proverbial bus in a social situation to a bad degree or backstabbing me willfully.

Accusing me of something I didn't fucking do and not giving me a chance to rationally explain my side of things. If I do something and you explain what I did I'll usually own up and be genuinely apologetic. Fuck. YOU. In the deepest circle of hell if you're just looking for a whipping boy.
Dude holy shit that triggers the fuck out of me. I like to foster open communication with others, even if it's not a pretty topic. When someone completely closes off on you and refuses to even discuss what happened -- doesn't give you the chance to speak your side -- that shit triggers me hard. Especially because I like to speak for the voiceless, or those who have soft voices but want to be heard.

I agree there's a double standard to those close to you -- almost seems like you treat your friends harsher than other people but that's the way you express your care, with tough love.
 

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@Temizzle Actually I'm very nasty to people outside of my circle. I'm more likely to mislead them though, and only if their personality rubs me up the wrong way. I'm chill otherwise.

And no not really, I'm not super harsh with my friends, partner or family. I'm careful with my tone and rarely do they get a rage fest. But if they need someone to bluntly say something, then I will. Otherwise I'm pretty caring and empathetic, dare I say ...nurturing.

Just to clarify what my behaviour is actually like these days.
 
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As an 8, there is this visceral reaction I'm sure you're familiar with. If you're not, please let me know.

Much of the time you might be relaxed, doing normal things, going about being friendly or minding your own business. Then something occurs in your environment -- maybe you witness something happen, or someone tells you something, or you realize something retrospectively, -- some kind of information comes in and you snap into this mode. It's almost as if time around you slows down and nothing else in the world matters apart from what is in your mind at that moment. Your face goes flat, you feel blood coursing through your veins, and you're in no mood for jokes. You are taking control of this situation now. It's very very different from your normal state of affairs, it's almost like two different versions of you.

Rather than being unconscious to it -- I'm curious: what do you think causes this for you?
What kind of information coming in triggers you? Enneagram uses a lot of blanket statements like "injustice". Well, what exactly does that mean to you? What about when it comes to standing in for others? Do you think when you step in for someone else some part of you is afraid that whatever you are fighting against might get to you one day if left unchecked?

What is the pattern for who you choose to take under your wing or protect? Are you defending the vulnerable parts of someone else who reminds you of your purest self? Are you defending the person, or what they represent to you personally? Is it something else entirely?

TL;DR: What causes your visceral response to trigger and what do you think you are defending deep down in those situations?
Personally, what sets me off is questioning my intentions or my honor, accusing me of something I didn't do. I will fight to the death for my honor and respect.

Outside of myself, I will fight to the death so that everyone has access to necessary resources and they are free to choose their own path, even if it leads to hell.

Going deeper like you asked, the personal part I think is a social thing. I can't allow my reputation to be smeared. The repercussions of being or being labeled a wicked, unjust man is something I'm not willing to accept and so death would be better.

For the external part, I do think it has to do with it coming back on me. I am a big believer in what goes around comes around, so the thinking is: if I let someone else be oppressed while I have the power and influence to do something about it, but don't, if I ever lose that power and find myself in the position of the oppressed, how could I expect justice or mercy?

So it's a lot like me putting myself in the shoes of the oppressed and thinking "how would I like for things to go here?"

Although I can say for 99% certainty I am not an 8 core. I have a strong 8 component in the enneagram theory and it's important to me that I'm powerful in every sense of the word, but it's definitely not my main motivation (maybe).

A couple of questions this reminds me of: what are you willing to fight for? What do you stand for? What will you not stand for? What are you willing to die for?
 

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Personally, what sets me off is questioning my intentions or my honor, accusing me of something I didn't do. I will fight to the death for my honor and respect.

I can't allow my reputation to be smeared. The repercussions of being or being labeled a wicked, unjust man is something I'm not willing to accept and so death would be better.

. I am a big believer in what goes around comes around, so the thinking is: if I let someone else be oppressed while I have the power and influence to do something about it, but don't, if I ever lose that power and find myself in the position of the oppressed, how could I expect justice or mercy?

So it's a lot like me putting myself in the shoes of the oppressed and thinking "how would I like for things to go here?"
stuff I quoted I do not relate to. I do not give a fuck about my reputation. I don't put myself in the shoes of the oppressed. I can't imagine waiting for Karma to take care of things.

We all have all of the ennegram stuff in us. I've got 1 and 2 and 3 and..... I think the core is the most important by far. and of course your integratino and disintegration points.
 

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stuff I quoted I do not relate to. I do not give a fuck about my reputation. I don't put myself in the shoes of the oppressed. I can't imagine waiting for Karma to take care of things.

We all have all of the ennegram stuff in us. I've got 1 and 2 and 3 and..... I think the core is the most important by far. and of course your integratino and disintegration points.
Yeah the enneagram model is ok at best for defining motivation and abysmal for providing the tools for postive change, at least in my experience. But at least it's a start on the path of self awareness and growth
 

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I notice this response in me

1. In a crisis situation. I don't have a panicked "oh no what are we gonna do" moment, I immediately dive in and become like, weirdly competent in things I'm normally not. Afterwards, I just think, "well someone's gotta do it (and it might as well be me)."
2. When a loved one is in danger of being hurt. (duh)
3. When people think they can get away with abusing their children in public. (tf?)

But honestly, this was way more common when I was younger, and in school, always surrounded by people. Nowadays, I have work (which doesn't really lend itself to anything that would set this off) and ... nothing. I'm a total homebody.
 

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i just wrote a letter to someone with a part of story from my recent holiday in mexico city, it seems relevant here too. lol.

friday - arrived in mexico city, had a great time... someone told us it was more or less ok to buy beers in a convenience store and walk drink them while walking (as is the case in border towns like cabo or tijuana)...
saturday - about 7pm 3 of us crack a beer on the street, myself, an ENFJ/3, an INTP/3 who are very good friends and an INFP/6 (both males). Some mexican cops stop us while we're walking and put our beers down and begin speaking in spanish and translating on their phones - "you will be arrested and spend 24 hours in jail or you will pay 2000 peso each fine".

so... my friends lock up, they start freaking out. its OBVIOUS they are just shaking us down for cash... a scam. so i say 'ok, my mistake... take me to jail'. my friends look like theyre going to piss them selves or something, i dont get it. anyway so i handle it... i stall the conversation out about 15 mintutes til the cops get uncomfortable, then i pull them aside and give them 1500 peso's for all of us to be free. my friends are greatfull, but im still testy and pretty sure we could have gotten away for less or nothing if my friends wouldnt have been such big babies. i was 100% ready to spend the night in jail - why? because FUCK those guys, AND because it would have been a cool story. :)

fast forward to tuesday night, we are out drinking at a restaurant and bar and meet up with another group of my friends who are also in MXC. about 1am my 3 friends go home and i tell them ill meet up later, and i stay with the other group. about 230am i get a call from teh ENFJ/3. he says he's in jail... he got home with the other guys but went out to the store and got picked up for being drunk in public. INSTANT RED MODE. i ask for the address, phone number and arresting officers. before he answers the phone hangs up. i try to call him back couple times, straight to voice mail. during this time, i slam my drinks and call an uber... about 3 minutes later another friend calls, asks when ill be home and if i have seen the other guy. i say no, tell him to make some coffee, ill be home in 5 minutes and we're goin to the police station. i dont even know what i was saying, it was just down to business. as im waiting for my uber, the other guy calls back and basically tells me the whole thing was a joke. i firmly say "so are you tellin me you were fuckin with me the whole time" he responds a few moments later, sheepishly with 'yeah'. i wait a few moments, and hung up on him. so i went back to the table inside, shaken, rattled... and ordered another drink.

as i sat there, i sort of felt embarrassed and angry that my friends had tricked me but... as i sat with my other friends at the table, who all knew what was going on just based on my reactions and the phone call.. i smiled. i laughed, and i appreciated. i realized the reason i reacted the way i did is because i care about my friends. the emotions were very confusing but enjoyable.

on the way home, i closed my eyes and enjoyed my tears of joy... similar to earlier that day after i'd processed seeing donata again.

when i got back to the airbnb, my friends were all asleep. in the morning we all had a good laugh, they apologized, i validated it as a great prank (no physical damage, property damage, and lots of emotional reaction) and forgave them. they seemed surprised, and i guess by the tone of my voice thought i was going to be upset. apparently one guy was pacing back n forth "nablur* is gonna kill us, nablur* is gonna kill us" after i hung up on him. lol
 

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When I realize or think I've been "had" or set up to take a fall. This is especially the case with a few situations at work when I found out that I was thrown under that cliche bus.
My body gets tense and hypersensitive but cut off at the same time, almost like pins and needles, and I experience a gnawing feeling in my gut. Then all I can do is snap out of it and think "who is responsible and what is the best way of dealing out vengeance?"
 
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Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
I notice this response in me

1. In a crisis situation. I don't have a panicked "oh no what are we gonna do" moment, I immediately dive in and become like, weirdly competent in things I'm normally not. Afterwards, I just think, "well someone's gotta do it (and it might as well be me)."
2. When a loved one is in danger of being hurt. (duh)
3. When people think they can get away with abusing their children in public. (tf?)

But honestly, this was way more common when I was younger, and in school, always surrounded by people. Nowadays, I have work (which doesn't really lend itself to anything that would set this off) and ... nothing. I'm a total homebody.
+1, bolded portion is well put

@SkyRacerX, as in, people conspiring against you, or just overlooked?

@nablur lmfao dude great story!! Classic 8 stuff there, especially the bit about feeling glad that you realized you actually care about your friends and how much you care about em. Funny from an outside perspective tbh lol. The bit where you come back and can kind of just laugh with your friends and admit it was a good prank and that they thought you were gonna kill them is pretty funny -- shows self restraint and maturity. Good stuff thanks for sharing.
 

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When I realize or think I've been "had" or set up to take a fall. This is especially the case with a few situations at work when I found out that I was thrown under that cliche bus.
My body gets tense and hypersensitive but cut off at the same time, almost like pins and needles, and I experience a gnawing feeling in my gut. Then all I can do is snap out of it and think "who is responsible and what is the best way of dealing out vengeance?"
I don't feel this way for that reason. Ummmm, are you open to an idea about a different type? Asked respectfully.
 
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+1, bolded portion is well put

@SkyRacerX, as in, people conspiring against you, or just overlooked?

@nablur lmfao dude great story!! Classic 8 stuff there, especially the bit about feeling glad that you realized you actually care about your friends and how much you care about em. Funny from an outside perspective tbh lol. The bit where you come back and can kind of just laugh with your friends and admit it was a good prank and that they thought you were gonna kill them is pretty funny -- shows self restraint and maturity. Good stuff thanks for sharing.
workin on it! ive got a good teacher.
 

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No, not in the conspiracy sense. In my line of work (regional sales for a large mfg firm), there is a tremendous amount of finger pointing when shit goes wrong (ok, who doesn't go through that? but anyway). We just lost a major account and the tone presented by management was that sales "could have done something different" to have avoided this loss. This couldn't have been father than the truth because my partner and I did everything that was in our power to align all stakeholders. It flopped because of interdepartmental conflict related to supply chain and an unwillingness to move forward with the solutions proposed. When the VP spoke to us about it, again, the tone he used made me "feel" like a lot was said in the background (from Marketing and/or Operations), but not to me or my partner (or to our boss), and that we were the ones who fucked up everything (now responsible for replacing $1M in revenue). I've stopped thinking of this sensation as paranoia, and more so as a special type of awareness of things unseen but not unknowable.



+1, bolded portion is well put

@SkyRacerX, as in, people conspiring against you, or just overlooked?

@nablur lmfao dude great story!! Classic 8 stuff there, especially the bit about feeling glad that you realized you actually care about your friends and how much you care about em. Funny from an outside perspective tbh lol. The bit where you come back and can kind of just laugh with your friends and admit it was a good prank and that they thought you were gonna kill them is pretty funny -- shows self restraint and maturity. Good stuff thanks for sharing.
 
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@Temizzle
Maybe I misunderstood your question. Where does visceral response come from? I.e. what part of the body? Rather than what triggers it?

The digestive system is "said" to have its own nervous system (sorry, don't have a link to latest science/theory to support this). I.e. The "gut" feeling as an auxiliary function of us taking in information consciously. When things do not make "sense" to me, or appear contradictory, and my "gut" feeling starts to go off, it's like a way of saying "there is information missing from the overall/complete picture." There is no "rational" reason for me to feel this, yet I am drawing conclusions that something isn't right, or ought to be different. I have suffered from this all my life and for a long time thought there was something "wrong" with me, especially for not being able to trust someone or a situation. When I've ignored it (thinking I am being paranoid or neurotic with no evidence to back up the feelings), it usually has bitten me in the ass later if I was originally right in my instinct. It took me a long time to "trust my gut" (and unfortunately I still don't always do this). This is probably because intuition is related to emotion and I almost certainly question my emotional reactions to things that don't make sense to me (ya it's messed up in there, lol)
 
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