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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
A reactive culture of mutual exclusivity? An observation. There appears to be a surprising number of people in PerC willing grasp the opposing argument of any view put forward and make the assumption that it cannot co-exist with any view in between.

I should say that there are many exceptions to this observation. However, in terms of personal response: assumptions are rampant. Discussions tend to be more about deflecting assumptions than anything else. Assumptions that could have been checked at the door.

Instead of establishing arguments, there appears to be an attachment of beliefs to a person and then an indirect / snide comment made about the person. Where is the depth of thinking? Where is the creativity? Where are the personalities that stretch beyond a rudimentary Google search (if that)? Where is the willingness to personally dissociate from an argument?

Black and white text book regurgitation. This may well be related to age, as the shades of grey may only develop as people get older (pun only sort of intended). I am confused. Okay, we don't always need to do it, but for the most part - isn't questioning our assumptions part of critical thinking 101?

Overall, I'd say by all means make things black and white. Have some evidence and remove the assumptions, or at least start it off making it clear it's your opinion (e.g. "I think"). Even where stating something as fact, it's okay to be wrong, but at least have the beginnings of a thought process behind why those thoughts may have existed in the first place? And if stating something as fact as rebuttal for someone else's opinion, be sure to drop the assumptions.

Or, just me?
 

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Not just you.

Too quick to judge.
Too quick to understand.
Too quick to dismiss instead of create.

Easier to regurgitate products of consensus-reality than produce originality.

The words "I was wrong/I could be wrong" are scarce.

It's 2:47 A.M. --I'm not sure any of this makes sense or is even relevant.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Not just you.

Too quick to judge.
Too quick to understand.
Too quick to dismiss instead of create.

Easier to regurgitate products of consensus-reality than produce originality.

The words "I was wrong/I could be wrong" are scarce.

It's 2:47 A.M. --I'm not sure any of this makes sense or is even relevant.
Yes, it is relevant, thanks. Interesting phrasing. Particularly "Too quick to dismiss instead of create."

Regarding "I am wrong," the thing I'd add is that in viewing arguments as separate entities, I'd love to see people become personally separated from them. That means that for the most part, people are left aside. In this way, people would not seeking for one person to be wrong / right, just as when they "admit" that they're "wrong" about some things (i.e. asserting things as fact that cannot be proven) they would not behave as if they've done something criminial.

"Admit" has a connotation of shame.

If admission was instead focused on the ideas in the argument and building arguments in new directions rather than having an ego association, new ideas may emerge, rather than becoming power contests.

Another thing I've noticed is that when one person concedes "errors" then there is sometimes an expectation that the other people will concede as part of some sense of fairness and justice. This has nothing to do with the ideas in the argument, nor whether they have been justified and is completely dependent on emotional validation.

This expectation assumes that the reason a person was originally arguing is arguing not for the sake of taking ideas to a new place but as a personal attack. I think almost all of the black / white arguments and assumptions are based on a fear of being seen as weak, whereas if the arguments are largely separate from the ego there are far more possibilities.
 

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The only thought going through my head after reading this thread:

The title is not relevant.
 

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What's funny is that this site seems more thoughtful to me than others I frequent. Not that problems don't exist here, but... well, everyone's different and there are different rates of maturity and age involved, so, people are just where they are at. But I've seen much worse so I kind of don't notice it as much here.

Anyway, I kind of hope we can all keep egos out of it. When I mess up, I try to apologize, or at least acknowledge where I didn't think of something or somehow fumbled a point. And I hope that others do the same. I try to see it as we're all building something together (so the point is to be accurate, and it's okay to throw out inaccurate things and rebuild), rather than defending an already perfect POV.

The only thought going through my head after reading this thread:
The title is not relevant.
But it's catchy, and will make a provocative buzz line for the movie release regardless of relevancy.
 

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But it's catchy, and will make a provocative buzz line for the movie release regardless of relevancy.
For some reason it irritated me. I think I have grown to dislike the use of words such as 'thinking' and shooting them in a negative slightly-elitist way on the world.
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For some reason it irritated me. I think I have grown to dislike the use of words such as 'thinking' and shooting them in a negative slightly-elitist way on the world.
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I wasn't sure what your angle was on it. But since you've said that:

I think part of my post was to suggest other people "think" too, they just have different criteria or priorities in their evaluation process. Not that there is NOT some bad thinking out there too, but sometimes people haven't even been challenged yet in life and/or might not even be aware that there are other ways to approach evaluation of something.

I think our role is to exemplify the kind of thinking we are good at, in ways that inspire others to learn how to do it as well (just as we sometimes work at picking up other people's admirable traits in their areas of excellence).
 

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I'm going to speak in general when I say "people" here (about myself too).

Part of the reason may be the way people are brought up with the Aristotelian, black-and-white, dichotomy. They may view certain arguments (even subjective, value-based ones) as only true or false with no room for indeterminacy, uncertainty, feedback loops, and so on. It's hard to escape this old philosophical attachment, because even our language "is" loaded with all kinds of these phantoms. I always catch myself caught up in these binaries until I examine my assumptions and realize that some but not all ideas may involve both ideas or ways of thinking. In other words, some of my picture may be wrong or limited, some of another person's picture may be wrong or limited, while there could be possibilities that are plausible from other pictures. It's good to take into consideration multiple ideas and to simultaneously examine/question those ideas.

But I do know what you mean by the textbook memorizing versus the critical thinking. It's easier and lazier and more convenient to accept what others think rather than think about how you think. There are reasons, in some cases, for why people who are smart don't readily challenge their ideas. It may be due to fear at having your complex models of reality shown to be flawed, the fear of being confronted with uncertainty, the effort it takes to question and solve problems, or the result of years of indoctrination from institutions that want you to not be a rational consumer. Before I go off topic, the idea of the memorizing monkey and the critical thinker reminds me of this scene in Goodwill Hunting (one of my favorite movies):


...and the insecure intellectual bent compared to emotional/life wisdom.

 

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Then maybe stop post so much in the INTP subforum and post in other parts on PersC where people are actually you know... likely to disagree with you.

This thread is highly ironic in content.
 

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Well i sort of had to make up mind to write this as being under qingdoms post might adjure bad connations (edit: nvm spend to much time thinking)
@Ista

During most of my life i have always interpreted instructions in my own way. As young as 4th grade i began substituting short sentences over paragraphs when ever the students had to copy long texts. I felt there was too much redundancy when the point was clear. And often that meant i had to write a statement from a different point of view. Where the topic seemed different but objectively they overlap. And that was most of the time sometimes i would just use large words to help me remember.

Even in my earliest memories at kindergarten i remember rarely following the rules. Not out of spite as i don't think i could have understand something like that at the time. But because it had a benefit for me. For example when i hid a candy bar in my pocket to eat before nap time. The teacher scolded me because everyone had to stock them in their jackets on the coat hanger. Or finish them during play time

Sometimes i don't even know why i rebel against rules. It's as if my body is automated to do something against the system every once in a while. Or frequently when given permission by affected parties and my consciousness.

If I had to rationalize it now. I would say in retrospective to all my experiences thus far the reasoning is this. If a solution solves a problem which is incarnated by method as instructions. Then by defining more variables with-in a solution one can troubleshoot more problems. It's the most logical form of planning. If ones saturates what could be learned from those personally deemed as intelligent then move on to individuals who may not fit this category as much. We may do this instinctive.


In accordance to mbti logic(we'll ignore socionics for now) then it may be seen like this:

If the Istp can use [Ti] and [Ni] to memorize complex patterns such as schematics. And then build them using [Se]. Perhaps the intp in conjuncture uses [Ti] and [Si] to recognize weak points or contingent areas i'd like to call them with-in a machine. Which includes theoretical systems. Note that i am annotating both [Si] and [Ni] as having contingency based tendencies. [Ni] is so phantasmal that the most unyielding factors with-in a denoted system is apparent. Where as [Si] is so detail obsessed that the "weak points" i described are sharp. Think bodily sensation propagated in to a field. As if you can actually feel the edges or joints on a machine. [Ne] is then used to design potential models to alleviate those weakness. And hence the architect stereotype.

Of course socionics would say from my moderate experience with it that ixtps are simply an enneagram of the ego. And both individuals are capable of the same thing. Given extreme factors like picard's "there are four lights' experiment where he started believing his captors words. Or a disillusionment of one ego for another.

But going from my premise intp would be one of the most objective types in the population. That so few people can understand the magnitude of their thinking enough to measure. I say thinking as in logical reasoning.

This leads to my next point. I was originally going to profess another one of my life stories as example. On how in-lenient the school system felt for me. But my post is getting to long already so i'll summarize the point.

I admit that i am a perfectionist and feel happiest when well i am with loved ones. But conventionally speaking it's as how i described Intp thought process. The innovation that comes from understanding a objective goal and reformatting everything else to meet it's standards. I feel well horny but not in a sexual context when i do this. I love the experience.

Though i also admit over time i developed a superiority complex. I was frustrated that other people couldn't stimulate my ideal modality of thinking or at least that's how i am rationalizing it right now. That when perfectionism is met with indifference it naturally tries to reject what sources is progenating it.

Even as of now i feel under-motivated. Because i had more planned before writing. Responses to what i preempt to be critiques. The height of my mental stimulation. But now i have go through a process before i can experience that again. =(

But i would like to finish of with these last few thoughts:

-A friend once said something that resonated with me to this day. That there are no longer geniuses in the world and everything has been discovered. Now i think the correct phrase is there are no sanctuaries left for geniuses in this world and discovery is on a hiatus. This era is probably one of the worst in history for intellectuals despite profound resources (internet..ect.) I remember reading about a korean prodigy once who quit his job at nasa as a adolescent because the loneliness was too much to bare. I am seeing this pattern among many gifted people

-The distortion by media and literature that intelligence is corrupt was inevitable. Society needed a barrier for intolerance among people so that they were manageable among each other. In large groups do a person's true colors emerge as does communication with-in small groups or one individual. The former is when the [Fe] [Te] barrier established by society is broken but in a negative connotation to the person. I believe introverted functions attribute to all of our perfectionism. It's great that people recognize this incentive among others. But if this sense of perfectionist is alien to people that may stem hatred.

-The solution is this have it so people naturally supersede their intolerance. That means no passionate Intp and Isfp hating on each other because their dreams differ and objectives collide. The late 19th and early 20th century had the greatest technological leaps in history. As well as the emergence of various brilliant peoples. And yet racism was taken to extremes which ever hemisphere you went.
 

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Damn it, ^ that post came out of nowhere!



In any case, some statements you make are somewhat overgeneralized..
Yea i get that a lot probably because of my age. 20 years old without that much "life experiences".

i suppose it's a improper substitute for figuring out the natural conclusion of specific things without directly experiencing them.

Best try and get comfortable with social setting as much as i can. I've tried for the past 2 years perhaps even by feigning infj. But hasn't helped much

I should probably also get over the habitat of truncating my sentences as well when talking to people. I don't know i just feel more preferable with visual/spatial communication. So i'll move my hands very often in a conversation. Not doing so makes me uncomfortable.
 

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Well the biggest thing that I have a problem with is mnemonics, acronyms, and other learning crutches. I feel like they are insulting my intelligence. Rightsy tightsy leftsy loosey actually confuses me as left and right don't work on circular object!!! I also dislike the left(or is is right...) hand rule as it tells me nothing about the situation and I would prefer to just figure it out on my own even if it takes more time. That might be deviating from the thread though but I would file it under "people are using alternatives to thinking and it hurts them when it matters." Though that might be overly critical since I know plenty of intelligent people who use these things.

For dealing with people in an argument: well I had to deal with my poorly informed, incredibly obviously ESTJ, political science roommate for a year who was extremely convinced that he was always right and was obnoxiously outspoken about it to the point where the other people in my hall felt sorry for me. I was probably the only person in the hall who could handle him though as he completely ignored my occasional passive aggressive spiting. Well anyway he would occasionally have trouble on his essays for class. Naturally he made poorly informed opinions (china having negligible military power...) and I would talk him out of it by offering him an alternate viewpoint. I convinced him that he came up with the new idea and got him excited about it. I don't get into many arguments since I generally employ this strategy, adopt part of their viewpoint to combine with my own if it had some legitimacy, or find a way to ignore them or change the subject if they are too uninformed and ignorant.

I'm not quite sure if I'm on topic but I hope this is contributing.
 
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