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Discussion Starter #1
Lets just go ahead and get this out of the way.

This has nothing to do with MBTI!
<<<<google is thattaway
Uhhh why are you posting this here?
Dont waste our time with intellectal debate and introspection while we are trying to learn about personality types!

Feel better now? :proud::tongue:


Anywho I just want to know what and how you all think.

I was pondering today about growth and self-critism/intrsopection. I seem to struggle at times with finding a good balance. I find too much of one without the other can lead to damage that will eventually need to be undone.

I definitely err on the side of too much self-critism. I am very aware of my faults and how I could be better at just about everything. Well, really, just the things that I hold value in. (big surprise there) But sometimes Im so good at this self-critism that I become overwhelmed/obsessed with "growth" or change in this area, that I usually end up neglecting other areas, which then accentuates the self-critism.

I think self-critism/reflection/introspection is very important to growth, being a good person, etc, but there is a point where it can become damaging. But if you go the opposite direction, it could be just as damaging.

I, personally try to juggle this with "me-time", taking time to be proud of my accomplishments and future goals, and trusting that I am essentially a good person, so if i just let go for a bit, I wont go on a serial killing rampage or anything. That usually keeps me from going too far in one direction.

I think being a pretty big Feeler, that most of my feeling successful comes from being a overall, holistically, good person. For someone who is a big thinker, maybe they go about the same processes, but may have different goals than I do. Not to say they dont place any value in being a good person, but may put more emphasis on being intellectually sound. Then again, who am I but a lowly Feeler. You tell me. :wink:
 

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Im not sure there is a balance between them at all. Not because it's impossible but because self-criticism and self-growth in my opinion don't oppose each other at all. It can be said that growth is a consequence of self-criticism.

Lol. If this wasn't the answer you were looking for, please let me know. I don't think I understood your question.
 

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As I just got through David Deidas "Way of the superior man" again, I can give you his perspective.

All humans have a masculine and feminine side of them.
The masculine searches for freedom, independence and the final solution/agreement.
The feminine searches for more love, connection and change.

The masculine grows from criticism and error correcting. The life of the man is one continuous mistake he is correcting from.
The feminine grows from praise and acceptance. The life of the feminine is the ever changing.

Then he uses these concepts to explain how to create sexual polarization/interest in an intimate relationship.

Back to me: We have never been thought that thinking can be less than useful. But analyze the thoughts and you will most likely find that they are going in a loop, not creating any useful answers. This makes me think that meditation can be very useful. More thoughts on thinking and the Ego can be found in the writings of Eckhart Tolle.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Im not sure there is a balance between them at all. Not because it's impossible but because self-criticism and self-growth in my opinion don't oppose each other at all. It can be said that growth is a consequence of self-criticism.

Lol. If this wasn't the answer you were looking for, please let me know. I don't think I understood your question.

lol, this was good! My question was really pretty vague, just wanted to toss around ideas and hear others thoughts, hopefully leading to new and interesting information for me to gather. ^_^

Also along the lines of what I think as well, it is like a continuous flow, one leading to the other.

I also think though that if you grow or change without introspection, or you have too much introspection and get stuck and not grow, this could create a problem.

I think that growth can (and hopefully does) follow self-critique, but not always.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
As I just got through David Deidas "Way of the superior man" again, I can give you his perspective.

All humans have a masculine and feminine side of them.
The masculine searches for freedom, independence and the final solution/agreement.
The feminine searches for more love, connection and change.

The masculine grows from criticism and error correcting. The life of the man is one continuous mistake he is correcting from.
The feminine grows from praise and acceptance. The life of the feminine is the ever changing.

Then he uses these concepts to explain how to create sexual polarization/interest in an intimate relationship.

Back to me: We have never been thought that thinking can be less than useful. But analyze the thoughts and you will most likely find that they are going in a loop, not creating any useful answers. This makes me think that meditation can be very useful. More thoughts on thinking and the Ego can be found in the writings of Eckhart Tolle.

Ohhh thank you this is interesting. How does he explain sexual polarization/interest in this way, if you dont mind explaining?

I also agree that thoughts go in a loop, most times venturing out then going back to the crux of the idea. Ive actually been thinking about meditating, but not quite sure how to do it correctly. I need to do some research on it first.

This is also very interesting about the female/male working seperately within you, and then combining as one to create the "whole" you. It reflects my idea a bit, Female being the "growth" (more positive than negative) and the Male representing the self-critique and ever changing, leading to the growth.

Ill have to look this guy up, thanks!
 

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Ohhh thank you this is interesting. How does he explain sexual polarization/interest in this way, if you dont mind explaining?
He is working with the "Integral institute" that discusses quadrants, lines, levels, states and types (MBTI is a Type issue).
The levels people develop though in his work are:
Prepersonal: The Macho Jerk and the Whore. Egocentric.
Personal: The "new age" accepting and giving room. Not much passion, but peace.
Transpersonal: The Prepersonal roles as art. Sharing the masculine and the feminine as a gift.

Using it in a relation is to agree to put away the aspect one does associate with the least, and trust in that aspect of the partner more than in yourself.

I also agree that thoughts go in a loop, most times venturing out then going back to the crux of the idea. Ive actually been thinking about meditating, but not quite sure how to do it correctly. I need to do some research on it first.
I like the Eckhart Tolle "Transcendental Meditation" approach. It is simple.
Sit down. Close eyes. Observe the thoughts if they appear, and let them go. You will observe that the thoughts are not you, and you will function fine, if not better, without them. Thought is great for solving arithmetic problems, but there is much more peace if you can bring it out as a specific tool, or put it away if it is not useful.
 

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I don't think any of this can be predicted. The concept of "growth" is pretty subjective.
 
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@zomberlover
Oh ok, I see what you're saying. I have two theories for you then.

1. The balance is 182.5. Take 182.5 days to introspect and spend the rest of the year growing.

2. While growing, ask yourself a couple questions. Am I living towards reaching my personal utopia? Am I happy with my attitudes, practices, and abilities or at least on the right track to getting them? If no, then it's time to pull up a chair and start introspecting.
While introspecting, ask yourself a couple questions. Have I figured out how to start living towards reaching my utopia? Do I know what practices, attitudes, and abilities I want to have or at least how to get them? If yes, then it's time to get up and start growing.

Getting up once you figured out how to reach where you want to go and how to get what you want is critical because it's where a lot of people get stuck. Quadruple-checking and deriving satisfaction from knowing how you want to go about growing are big red flags that a person is introspecting a little too much. The greater satisfaction shouldn't be from knowing how to do, but from accomplishing it.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
@zomberlover
Oh ok, I see what you're saying. I have two theories for you then.

1. The balance is 182.5. Take 182.5 days to introspect and spend the rest of the year growing.

2. While growing, ask yourself a couple questions. Am I living towards reaching my personal utopia? Am I happy with my attitudes, practices, and abilities or at least on the right track to getting them? If no, then it's time to pull up a chair and start introspecting.
While introspecting, ask yourself a couple questions. Have I figured out how to start living towards reaching my utopia? Do I know what practices, attitudes, and abilities I want to have or at least how to get them? If yes, then it's time to get up and start growing.

Getting up once you figured out how to reach where you want to go and how to get what you want is critical because it's where a lot of people get stuck. Quadruple-checking and deriving satisfaction from knowing how you want to go about growing are big red flags that a person is introspecting a little too much. The greater satisfaction shouldn't be from knowing how to do, but from accomplishing it.

Not quite sure how to respond to this post.

Err....I think maybe you missed the point, or I am just too stupid to understand the finer details of your response.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
I am in no way implying it can be predicted, or there is a specific formula to follow. Really I just wanted to know, how do you go about growth? What are things that have helped you along the way, or things that have hindered you? Etc
 

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Not quite sure how to respond to this post.

Err....I think maybe you missed the point, or I am just too stupid to understand the finer details of your response.
Lol. Ah well. I give up.
 

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Ohhh thank you this is interesting. How does he explain sexual polarization/interest in this way, if you dont mind explaining?

I also agree that thoughts go in a loop, most times venturing out then going back to the crux of the idea. Ive actually been thinking about meditating, but not quite sure how to do it correctly. I need to do some research on it first.

This is also very interesting about the female/male working seperately within you, and then combining as one to create the "whole" you. It reflects my idea a bit, Female being the "growth" (more positive than negative) and the Male representing the self-critique and ever changing, leading to the growth.

Ill have to look this guy up, thanks!
I never heard of David Deidas but I embrace a theory comparable, which I can explain.


First of all, it is based on the fact that we are social animals. As a group we are stronger than alone. In order to function as a group, there needs to be an order. You see that also with other social animals. Like a pecking order.

There is a difference between men and women, and how we value ourselves. (self-esteem). Men organize themselves as a dominance hierarchy and women as a status hierarchy. Basically, a man values himself instrinsically by his potential (rank) and a woman extrinsically by her social relations (status). That's why men compete, argue and fight and brag and women tend to be agreeable and modest. They want to be liked. Women don't really want to be equal, but you don't show it. They learn to become true artists when it comes to mixed (contradictory) messaging and behaviour, and to read true meanings and minds (intentions) of others. ;-) And everywhere they go, they need to re-value themselves extrinsically again and again (communicate!), exchanging evaluations and reciprocal affirmation and, not unimportant, sharing disapproval. Really a tough job!

Men just shout...'I have a bigger...!' Filled in with anything that is easier to measure and compare and well, more in your own hands, so to speak. Men are (more) individual when it comes to valueing themselves, but I'm not sure if they also search for freedom. (perhaps towards women) Women aren't neccesarily more social than men. Young boys still prefer to play teamsports and young girls individual (judged) sports. Older boys look for alliances to become better and stronger, and for protection and career-opportunities. So his social network and relations are 'functional'. (like 'old boys') Unfortunately, women are still not very helpful to eachother. And that's a conclusion not drawn by male researchers. Also, what is needed in the world of men, can be a liability under women. Like being assertive or displaying self-confidence. Not all men can appreciate that either. Of course this is very black and white and in general. I can get along very well with women. I really wish the adorable little creatures all the best. But it seems a rather profound and complicated multiple twist they would need to untangle themselves from.
 

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I was pondering today about growth and self-critism/intrsopection. I seem to struggle at times with finding a good balance. I find too much of one without the other can lead to damage that will eventually need to be undone.

I definitely err on the side of too much self-critism. I am very aware of my faults and how I could be better at just about everything. Well, really, just the things that I hold value in. (big surprise there) But sometimes Im so good at this self-critism that I become overwhelmed/obsessed with "growth" or change in this area, that I usually end up neglecting other areas, which then accentuates the self-critism.

I think self-critism/reflection/introspection is very important to growth, being a good person, etc, but there is a point where it can become damaging. But if you go the opposite direction, it could be just as damaging.
Then again, who am I but a lowly Feeler. You tell me. :wink:
I agree. It reminds me of the story of Siddhartha. If the string is too tight, it wil snap. If it's too slow you hear nothing. Somewhere inbetween you can make some noise. ;)
 

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Discussion Starter #17
I never heard of David Deidas but I embrace a theory comparable, which I can explain.


First of all, it is based on the fact that we are social animals. As a group we are stronger than alone. In order to function as a group, there needs to be an order. You see that also with other social animals. Like a pecking order.

There is a difference between men and women, and how we value ourselves. (self-esteem). Men organize themselves as a dominance hierarchy and women as a status hierarchy. Basically, a man values himself instrinsically by his potential (rank) and a woman extrinsically by her social relations (status). That's why men compete, argue and fight and brag and women tend to be agreeable and modest. They want to be liked. Women don't really want to be equal, but you don't show it. They learn to become true artists when it comes to mixed (contradictory) messaging and behaviour, and to read true meanings and minds (intentions) of others. ;-) And everywhere they go, they need to re-value themselves extrinsically again and again (communicate!), exchanging evaluations and reciprocal affirmation and, not unimportant, sharing disapproval. Really a tough job!

Men just shout...'I have a bigger...!' Filled in with anything that is easier to measure and compare and well, more in your own hands, so to speak. Men are (more) individual when it comes to valueing themselves, but I'm not sure if they also search for freedom. (perhaps towards women) Women aren't neccesarily more social than men. Young boys still prefer to play teamsports and young girls individual (judged) sports. Older boys look for alliances to become better and stronger, and for protection and career-opportunities. So his social network and relations are 'functional'. (like 'old boys') Unfortunately, women are still not very helpful to eachother. And that's a conclusion not drawn by male researchers. Also, what is needed in the world of men, can be a liability under women. Like being assertive or displaying self-confidence. Not all men can appreciate that either. Of course this is very black and white and in general. I can get along very well with women. I really wish the adorable little creatures all the best. But it seems a rather profound and complicated multiple twist they would need to untangle themselves from.

Interesting.

I do see where you are coming from. But I think the over all idea is a tad limiting to both sexes. I dont quite feel like it leaves much room for the individual, and concentrates too much on gender roles.

I too, believe that men and women are different. I mean we just are, we are made differently, raised differently, and society has different expectations on both of us. However, I do think that these things are more of a background "core" for us to build off on, and not the box that we live it.

Take MBTI for example, I am INFJ, and so is my SO. We are incredibly different, but we share the same core values. What stems from those core values is what makes us both unique, and different from each other. So to lead that example back to the point, just because someone is female or male, yes there are these gender roles that play a part, but just as much as a million different things that go into shaping who we are as a unique individual.

I, for one, take more pride and satisfaction in my own self-assessment and goals, than social status. I do care what other people think, but that is because I truly care about other people, and it is a core part of me to try to make them happy, at least the ones I see of worthy of this kind of treatment. I am also a type 2 ennegram, so that may have something to do with it. But this is also how my brother and I were raised, and he is the same way.

I also know men that get their self-worth by being autonomous and able to depend on themselves emotionally and otherwise. Which somewhat goes along with your theory but they lack the competition part.

And all us women wish all you adorable little men, like yourself, the best in life as well! When all else fails for you, at least we will be here to do your dirty laundry and the dishes!!! :tongue:
 

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And all us women wish all you adorable little men, like yourself, the best in life as well! When all else fails for you, at least we will be here to do your dirty laundry and the dishes!!! :tongue:
To tell you the truth, I never really understood why the inventer of te electric dishwasher hasn't even been nominated for the Nobel Peace Price.
 

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Interesting.

I do see where you are coming from. But I think the over all idea is a tad limiting to both sexes. I dont quite feel like it leaves much room for the individual, and concentrates too much on gender roles.

I too, believe that men and women are different. I mean we just are, we are made differently, raised differently, and society has different expectations on both of us. However, I do think that these things are more of a background "core" for us to build off on, and not the box that we live it.

Take MBTI for example, I am INFJ, and so is my SO. We are incredibly different, but we share the same core values. What stems from those core values is what makes us both unique, and different from each other. So to lead that example back to the point, just because someone is female or male, yes there are these gender roles that play a part, but just as much as a million different things that go into shaping who we are as a unique individual.

I, for one, take more pride and satisfaction in my own self-assessment and goals, than social status. I do care what other people think, but that is because I truly care about other people, and it is a core part of me to try to make them happy, at least the ones I see of worthy of this kind of treatment. I am also a type 2 ennegram, so that may have something to do with it. But this is also how my brother and I were raised, and he is the same way.

I also know men that get their self-worth by being autonomous and able to depend on themselves emotionally and otherwise. Which somewhat goes along with your theory but they lack the competition part.

And all us women wish all you adorable little men, like yourself, the best in life as well! When all else fails for you, at least we will be here to do your dirty laundry and the dishes!!! :tongue:
I agree with you, and for the most part of human existence man had lived in small groups of about 150 people. Agriculture started about 20,000 years ago, and about 5000 years ago a gradual shift from an agricultural matriarchal (pagan) clan-society to a urban patriarchal protocapitalist class-society in cities and states 3000 years ago, up to where we are right now.

In terms of evolution, the way we're wired hasn't changed much from what it has been for at least hundreds of thousands of years. I think it's better to recognize and acknowledge this as a determining factor in our social behaviour rather than denying it. By the way, capitalism is a dominance based hierarchy and democracy is status based, and these interweaved 'masculine' and 'feminine' structures still makes up the fabric of our society up to a global scale. And a political smear campagn is basically not much different than 2 girls gossiping.

So I'm not saying men can't be bitches! And men are so much more adorable when women are around.

And I'm not that much interested in social domination neither. The matter is not so much the dominating part, but awareness your position. For instance, I don't work out because it's not that important for my self-esteem or self-image, or sex-appeal. But I know that when I'm in the same room with a couple of other men, all big and muscled, it would make me feel somewhat awkward. I would be aware of the fact that I would be somewhere at the bottom end on the 'survival' or 'procreation' scale. Off course there is no real danger, but the chemicals and neurons will act anyway. There has been done some research on other social animals, where the behaviour of those at the bottom of the hierarchy show signs comparable with depression and other kinds of psychopathology or social anxiety.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
I agree with you, and for the most part of human existence man had lived in small groups of about 150 people. Agriculture started about 20,000 years ago, and about 5000 years ago a gradual shift from an agricultural matriarchal (pagan) clan-society to a urban patriarchal protocapitalist class-society in cities and states 3000 years ago, up to where we are right now.

In terms of evolution, the way we're wired hasn't changed much from what it has been for at least hundreds of thousands of years. I think it's better to recognize and acknowledge this as a determining factor in our social behaviour rather than denying it. By the way, capitalism is a dominance based hierarchy and democracy is status based, and these interweaved 'masculine' and 'feminine' structures still makes up the fabric of our society up to a global scale. And a political smear campagn is basically not much different than 2 girls gossiping.

So I'm not saying men can't be bitches! And men are so much more adorable when women are around.

And I'm not that much interested in social domination neither. The matter is not so much the dominating part, but awareness your position. For instance, I don't work out because it's not that important for my self-esteem or self-image, or sex-appeal. But I know that when I'm in the same room with a couple of other men, all big and muscled, it would make me feel somewhat awkward. I would be aware of the fact that I would be somewhere at the bottom end on the 'survival' or 'procreation' scale. Off course there is no real danger, but the chemicals and neurons will act anyway. There has been done some research on other social animals, where the behaviour of those at the bottom of the hierarchy show signs comparable with depression and other kinds of psychopathology or social anxiety.


BAHHHHHHHHHH I just wrote a super long reply and my computer erased it.sdfhawkjghriugiedb

Alright heres the nutshell

I agree.

We have been the same since the beginning of our existence. We have only evolved through learning moe about our environment but our emotional intelligence is the same. We are just as barbaric now as we were back then, we just put it under socially acceptable terms.

Women and men are equal but different. We play different roles, but we have the same value. That is why we work so well together.

Women have rape fantasies because this is so deeply rooted in our brains. Its also why the man is usually the hero in movies and gets the girl in the end. We want someone who can physically protect us (strength wise) We dont actually want to be raped.

Again, this is about as vague and senseless as trying to put the rules of one type on a person. "Because you are XXXX, you will do this, like these things, act this way" But that doesnt mean it does not play a role in how we live out our lives.
 
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