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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Ok, so it seems to be that these two types both radiate charm, charissma, and are extremely magnetic of people.

So what are the differences between these two variations and which one is more charming, or attention grabbing.

If a 3w2 and a 2w3 were at a party together, I think they'd both be the life of it, both getting loads of attention although I'm not sure if it would be for exactly the same reasons.

Do others agree that the 3w2 is more the type that others admire and aspire to be like whereas the 2w3 is more the type that others warm too and admire on a superficial level (i.e. based simply on image)?

It seems that while both types are admired for similar qualities, that 2w3's are not as much of a serious role model as the 3w2's. The 2w3's appear charismatic in that they are sweet, well groomed, and giving whereas the 3w2's appear charasmatic as in the radiate more charm or self belief from within as most of it comes from not only their appearance but also their talents.

Having said that, which of the two would be more into fashion and the like since they are both so image conscious?

Lots of questions posed there, i'm intruiged by these two types and still trying to type myself. :happy:

Oh and lastly, would these two enneagram types be compatible?? Thx!
 

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I know one ENFJ 3w2 and ESFJ 2w3. Of course, you can't account for a person's whole personality with enneagram or MBTI, but my observations have warranted the 3w2 to be more charming, attractive as you say... reasons being that core 3 is concerned with image and power. Part of their description is their "chameleon" like way of molding into the character their role demands. So, if a 3 needs to sell their product, they morph into aspiring business man/woman. While the two is concerned with mainly with being "loved", with a dose of image on the side. So they will likely not be as extraverted, preferring specific love instead of over all glory.
That's my take on it (;
 

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Its more of a priority to the 3w2 to be charismatic and attractive. The 2 has a genuine interest in the needs of others, which takes their energy off of their own composure at times. The 2 is likely to get their hands dirty in order to benefit someone else, but the 3 will stay pristine, and be the envy of all, because thats precisely where the focus is.

And I'm certainly not saying that every 3w2 will be a charismatic splendor. Many of them have the drive, but aren't very good at it. You have failed, or stupid 3s just as easily as any other 'type.' I have seen some and they are just very sad, constantly alienating those who they try to win over, because their manipulations are sloppy and their mask slips.

But so far as which of the two (3w2, 2w3) has the most potential to be charming and attractive, it would be 3w2 because thats the priority.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
I found this stuff on another site.

A difference between the two types, is that the 3w2 tends to do their own thing more...The 2w3 becomes deeply attached to those close to them, becoming possessive and intrusive. The 2w3 wants to support someone else and make person think they need
them, whereas the 3 wants others to admire and aspire to them, not need them.

I'm looking at someone I thought was a 3 as well, then 2w1, but I don't think 2w1's are usually confused with 3's (RICH opinion?). I think sp2's can be workaholic-like, in service to family and family values, (the me-first can seem like 3 but it's for different reasons.)

*** Oceanlife I have met more 2W1s than any other Ennea type ( female elementary teachers.... ) Its my personal belief that that they don't look much like 3s at all It would be much easier to mistake them for 1W2s, and that isn't easy.... The 2, " You have a problem, here I am to help. ", is nothing like the 3ish " You haven't seen anything yet, let me pull out all the stops! " I agree with Dfgray44 about how 2s are always keeping score, and not just SP-2s, either. Any body in some sort of relationship with a 2, should take great care to give them the strokes they deserve! If the 2 gets to the boiling point, it wouldn't be pretty....

I had a 2W3 female boss for 8 & half years, as well as working with a female 2W3 hourly

worker. They were both outrageously theatrical and boisterous, but still had the 2ish helpfulness. They didn't seem to have the 3ish control, or the cool, calm personae that we 3s just seem to project. For the 2W3, its much more the show they can put on, and in giving of their talents. ( As opposed to the 2W1, performing practical jobs of work. )

Hi Rena-- no, I'm a 4w3, I just know a few people who could be either 2w3 or 3w2. :)

Both types seem eager to please in a sense... but I can't quite put my finger on the *manner* in which they're eager to please. I guess it can go back to motivations... 2s trying to push how nice they are/ being people pleasing, 3s having a more self-gratifying motivation... still, their energies just seem so similar to me.

Or maybe it's that they both have this sugary, extroverted thing going on? Does anybody relate to this experience of these two types? How to tell the difference when it comes to that energy?

How strange it is to be anything at all -NMH

Some possible differences (that may or not be helpful):

2s:
dutiful with strong super-ego

flexible ego boundary which flows outward to "hug" others

need to feel loved

tend to have easy access to feelings




3s:
aggressive and task oriented

rigid boundary which hides an emptiness. Shame may be triggered when the boundary is breached, when others might see the emptiness.

Achievements are of primary importance...may not be aware of feelings.

Won't have trouble suppressing feelings in order to accomplish tasks (or to win).
 

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Discussion Starter #5
And here is some more stuff on the comparison of 2v3 that I thought I'd add for those interested.


quote:
Originally posted by 4conspiracy

Hi Rena-- no, I'm a 4w3, I just know a few people who could be either 2w3 or 3w2. :)

Both types seem eager to please in a sense... but I can't quite put my finger on the *manner* in which they're eager to please. I guess it can go back to motivations... 2s trying to push how nice they are/ being people pleasing, 3s having a more self-gratifying motivation... still, their energies just seem so similar to me.

Or maybe it's that they both have this sugary, extroverted thing going on? Does anybody relate to this experience of these two types? How to tell the difference when it comes to that energy?

-------------------------------------------
I know what you mean about their energy being similar at times. I have two close friends, one is a 2w3 and the other is a 3w2. They can seem somewhat alike on the surface.

The 2 is much more giving and willing to sacrifice much of herself for others. The 3 can be helpful too, but it's done in more of a mentor type way.

The root of a 2's giving nature can often come from underlying insecurities- "if I don't do this for you, you might not like me..."

The 3 has a better sense of who they are and the value of what they bring to the table. So when they are in "helper" mode, it's more of a, "If you are really interested, I'll help you, but if not, that's fine- I've got lots of other things to do."

So both can be pleasers, but the reasons they are giving of themselves are very different.


AllPersonality.com

sp 3w4 INFJ

My added $0.02s (just adding, cos the existing comments are great, and really to-a-tee):

The 3 is more irritable, in a sense of: "I want to do this, are you with me?..." and if there's no yes/no agreement, the 3 gets irritable, if it goes on, the 3 walks away "f you then"

Here we go again with the misconception about Twos...hey guys: the 2´s passion is not ¨HELP¨ or ¨LOVE¨...is PRIDE, DOES IT RING A BELL?

Obviously, as in most passions (except lust ) this pride will be disguised...but it´s PRIDE what moves them, nor love neither the need to help.We ALL want to be LOVED (and that´s why we choose a certain strategy in order to get this love) in our somewhat twisted ways.
Twos are not ¨helpers¨, they are ¨STRATEGICAL HELPERS¨ which is not the same.They do not help indiscriminately.They just help those they consider WORTH of their help (usually important or powerful people or people they got a certain interest in) and can dismiss ¨little people¨ with astonishing disdain.

As being ¨More Three than Threes¨one of the Social Twos main traits, it´s quite difficult to tell apart a Social Two from a Social Three, because they look much alike on the surface.

On the other hand, Sexual Threes are more ¨twoish¨-on the surface-so sometimes thay can be mistaken as Twos.

GONTXU

Sexual 3/7/1
ENFJ

transformer
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Posted*-*16 Jun 2010*:* 8:42:42 PM * * *
Im surprised this is even a topic really. I found distinguishing 2's and 3's incredibly easy, even when its a 2w3 vs a 3w2.
 

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I know one ENFJ 3w2 and ESFJ 2w3. Of course, you can't account for a person's whole personality with enneagram or MBTI, but my observations have warranted the 3w2 to be more charming, attractive as you say... reasons being that core 3 is concerned with image and power. Part of their description is their "chameleon" like way of molding into the character their role demands. So, if a 3 needs to sell their product, they morph into aspiring business man/woman. While the two is concerned with mainly with being "loved", with a dose of image on the side. So they will likely not be as extraverted, preferring specific love instead of over all glory.
That's my take on it (;
i'd say you can account for someone's whole personality with the enneagram. it's how you assemble your ego structure. Thus.

my 2 cents are the 2w3 are more attractive. Hexad Ftw. 2s energies are outwards, 3s are a median. seems to me this cud mean more attractiveness.. on another note, my mother and gf are both 2w3s.. my mother was quite the looker in her day, and my girlfriend is very attractive. Yet, her 9w8 is what gives her the less gentle look... if you saw her compared to my mother you'd know what i mean.. they are both 2w3, 7w6. they differ with the instinctual center. i think she's a 1w2. i'm a 1w2. we look a lot alike. so maybe it's her 1w2 that makes her attractive (haha)
but idk.. i think in the end it's relative, but the majority would find 2w3s more attractive..
 

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i'd say you can account for someone's whole personality with the enneagram. it's how you assemble your ego structure. Thus.
Enneagram is a person's way of coping with the world, while MBTI how you align yourself with it. I am INFP and 6w7. While I have behaviours that are credited to each, I am an artist as well, which neither MBTI nor Enneagram can account for. it doesn't determine who one is as a person.
 

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Enneagram is a person's way of coping with the world, while MBTI how you align yourself with it. I am INFP and 6w7. While I have behaviours that are credited to each, I am an artist as well, which neither MBTI nor Enneagram can account for. it doesn't determine who one is as a person.
lol okay, but does that take your tri-type into account?
 

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Wow, that's a big claim. Do you have the balls to back it up? :crazy:
Yesss i do. :p

Only we can see the multitude of connections between our past and our enneagram.

"Motivation and personality formation:

[*] Personality is formed by a combination of innate temperament,
environmental conditions (but not just parental conditioning),
and free will

[*] Although negative experiences in early life can affect the
functionality of the personality (i.e., how healthy it becomes),
it cannot actually determine its basic structure and
function

[*] It is our enneagram type that is the single largest factor
which determines our personality, where type is considered
to be (a) primordial and archetypal, (b) essentially positive
(life-affirming), and (c) with us from birth (if not earlier).

[*] Type motivation is therefore a more elemental than either
the need to relieve instinctual tension (Freuds position) or
the need for social mirroring and interaction (the Object
Relational position)"

Since your free will revolves around your choices which revolve around your desires/fears, it is directed by the enneagram. therefore, all aspects of your personality come from your enneagram. Why is that a bad thing?
there's still over like... 500 combinations.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Yesss i do. :p
Ok, that is nice but how long will you last? I'm afraid I may burn you out with my perspective. I appreciate that we all have a view to share, but the claim that all aspects of your personality come from your enneagram (you stated that below) is based firstly on the idea that the enneagram theory is in no way flawed and I don't think any theory is perfect, disproving the validity of your argument already.

Only we can see the multitude of connections between our past and our enneagram.
Yes, that's true although sometimes our family and closest friends can also see the link even when our enneagram is unknown by them. Sometimes, it's not even necessary to know what enneagram someone is to know that that person functions in a specific way which is likely to yeild certain responses under certain environments/situations. This is probably the more informal way of assessing the enneagram and putting someone into a box so to speak. "Such and such will bite if you say such and such because such and such assumes you to mean such and such even if you meant such and such due to the personality such and such possesses".

"Motivation and personality formation:

[*] Personality is formed by a combination of innate temperament,
environmental conditions (but not just parental conditioning),
and free will

[*] Although negative experiences in early life can affect the
functionality of the personality (i.e., how healthy it becomes),
it cannot actually determine its basic structure and
function

[*] It is our enneagram type that is the single largest factor
which determines our personality, where type is considered
to be (a) primordial and archetypal, (b) essentially positive
(life-affirming), and (c) with us from birth (if not earlier).

[*] Type motivation is therefore a more elemental than either
the need to relieve instinctual tension (Freuds position) or
the need for social mirroring and interaction (the Object
Relational position)"
Some interesting viewpoints, but whose arguments are they? All of them are debatable :wink:

Since your free will revolves around your choices which revolve around your desires/fears, it is directed by the enneagram. therefore, all aspects of your personality come from your enneagram. Why is that a bad thing?
there's still over like... 500 combinations.
I never disagreed that your life choices are directed by your enneagram, however this is not the same as saying that all elements of your personality come from your enneagram.

It is not a bad thing, just inaccurate in my opinion. :bored:
 

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Ok, that is nice but how long will you last? I'm afraid I may burn you out with my perspective. I appreciate that we all have a view to share, but the claim that all aspects of your personality come from your enneagram (you stated that below) is based firstly on the idea that the enneagram theory is in no way flawed and I don't think any theory is perfect, disproving the validity of your argument already.



Yes, that's true although sometimes our family and closest friends can also see the link even when our enneagram is unknown by them. Sometimes, it's not even necessary to know what enneagram someone is to know that that person functions in a specific way which is likely to yeild certain responses under certain environments/situations. This is probably the more informal way of assessing the enneagram and putting someone into a box so to speak. "Such and such will bite if you say such and such because such and such assumes you to mean such and such even if you meant such and such due to the personality such and such possesses".
yeah, i wrote a 10 page analysis on myself that i'd say is pretty accurate along with my enneagram, before i knew anything about the subject. it's not a big deal that people can observe ego structures based off external influence.. that's a day-to-day observation. The homeless man is sad. i guess it's because he's hungry and doesn't have a bed to sleep in at night. plus he can't discuss his enneagram online.. what a shame. i bet if i were to see him with some food, and i ventured to take it.. well given his environment/situation he's going to respond with some aggression... what's your point? All i was saying is that only we as individuals can see the "multitude" of correspondences between our enneagram and personality. i don't see how our ability to analyze human psychology based off past (without the use of the enneagram's insight) takes away from what i was tryna say here


Some interesting viewpoints, but whose arguments are they? All of them are debatable :wink:


I never disagreed that your life choices are directed by your enneagram, however this is not the same as saying that all elements of your personality come from your enneagram.
As i stated, there are 3 elements to the personality..
innate temperament,
environmental conditions (but not just parental conditioning),
and free will.
The way that anyone assembles the ego structures will indefinitely be through the process of their enneagram.
just an opinion.





lol.. of course those viewpoints are debatable. They are viewpoints, afterall, not the ramblings of an omniscient being. I see it in application in other ppl as well, so I think it's how consciousness works, simply put.



"I don't think any theory is perfect, disproving the validity of your argument already. ". what are you, an 8?
lol just because you don't think it is 'perfect'.. my argument is no longer valid? Well i don't think 2+2=4. so don't try to argue that with me...
you argue in the first place because you don't think the others viewpoint is correct.. that premise is for further discussion, not for a conclusion that their argument is invalid. that isn't very productive.


do you know your tri-type yet?
 

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Discussion Starter #13
As i stated, ther
yeah, i wrote a 10 page analysis on myself that i'd say is pretty accurate along with my enneagram, before i knew anything about the subject.
Oh, really? That sounds like an interesting read. Did you sell it to a bookstore?

it's not a big deal that people can observe ego structures based off external influence.. that's a day-to-day observation.
No, it's not. I was just saying that we aren't the only ones that can see the "multitude of connections between our past and our enneagram". It's usually in fact more obvious to others than it is to our selves, is what I was getting at. Unless of course, we know our selves inside out (a rare case). I guess that's why this site has been established, so that we can eventually live up to that claim to know ourselves and how our enneagram and other states function on us in our environment.

The homeless man is sad. i guess it's because he's hungry and doesn't have a bed to sleep in at night. plus he can't discuss his enneagram online.. what a shame. i bet if i were to see him with some food, and i ventured to take it.. well given his environment/situation he's going to respond with some aggression... what's your point?
I thought I made my point - that others can see our behaviour patterns more clearly than we can, mostly unless of course we are a personal genius. The homeless man example had nothing to do with my point, although it's a great illustration of environemental influences on behaviour and aggression. I also feel sad that he has no access to a computer, and to this thread, etc. making him all the more deprived :(

All i was saying is that only we as individuals can see the "multitude" of correspondences between our enneagram and personality. i don't see how our ability to analyze human psychology based off past (without the use of the enneagram's insight) takes away from what i was tryna say here
That's if we are perceptive enough, and willing to see ourselves 'flaws and all'. There are a great number of individuals why deny their basic characteristics, and those individuals probably don't even know about the existence of the enneagram theory.

You as an individual may see the correspondence between your enneagram and your personality traits/ways of reacting to the environment but someone else may be blind as a bat (such as myself, still learning about my 'enneagram'). I understood what you were saying, and I was saying that what may be the case for you, may not be the case for everyone else out there - that's all :D

There are 3 elements to the personality..
innate temperament,
environmental conditions (but not just parental conditioning),
and free will.
The way that anyone assembles the ego structures will indefinitely be through the process of their enneagram.
just an opinion.
Yes, and it's a valid opinion. I like it. How much would you say in your opinion that free will has to play in all of this?


lol.. of course those viewpoints are debatable. They are viewpoints, afterall, not the ramblings of an omniscient being. I see it in application in other ppl as well, so I think it's how consciousness works, simply put.
Ok, awesome. Would you like to debate them?


"I don't think any theory is perfect, disproving the validity of your argument already. ". what are you, an 8?
lol just because you don't think it is 'perfect'.. my argument is no longer valid? Well i don't think 2+2=4. so don't try to argue that with me...
I don't like to put a number to my name so I wouldn't know if I was an 8, 2, or 4 so to speak. 3 seems most fitting based on the descriptions, though.

As for your mathematical calculation, well done! ;-)

you argue in the first place because you don't think the others viewpoint is correct.. that premise is for further discussion, not for a conclusion that their argument is invalid. that isn't very productive.
I argue with you out of love of debate (entp stuff). Nothing more.
Please don't take offence to my aggressive nature.
It's just an approach, i guess I could work on it. :)


do you know your tri-type yet?
No idea. I'm not a firm believe in Myers Briggs stuff so that probably explains some of my cynicism, etc.
 

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As i stated, ther

Oh, really? That sounds like an interesting read. Did you sell it to a bookstore?
hahah, no.. i don't like the approach i took, looking back. it wasn't finished eitherr.

No, it's not. I was just saying that we aren't the only ones that can see the "multitude of connections between our past and our enneagram". It's usually in fact more obvious to others than it is to our selves, is what I was getting at. Unless of course, we know our selves inside out (a rare case). I guess that's why this site has been established, so that we can eventually live up to that claim to know ourselves and how our enneagram and other states function on us in our environment.

I thought I made my point - that others can see our behaviour patterns more clearly than we can, mostly unless of course we are a personal genius. The homeless man example had nothing to do with my point, although it's a great illustration of environemental influences on behaviour and aggression. I also feel sad that he has no access to a computer, and to this thread, etc. making him all the more deprived :(
Well, I am a 4. i agree with you that the connections wouldn't be so obvious to most people, but it's my primary concern so that doesn't apply to me. you're right, though.

That's if we are perceptive enough, and willing to see ourselves 'flaws and all'. There are a great number of individuals why deny their basic characteristics, and those individuals probably don't even know about the existence of the enneagram theory.


You as an individual may see the correspondence between your enneagram and your personality traits/ways of reacting to the environment but someone else may be blind as a bat (such as myself, still learning about my 'enneagram'). I understood what you were saying, and I was saying that what may be the case for you, may not be the case for everyone else out there - that's all :D
hahah, true that.. poor cats.
i've had a lot of people over here read up on the enneagram. lol i'm pretty good at typing, but it's always better when it's a couple so they both have insight to offer.. people aren't as blind to their basic functions as you'd think when they read it in a couple of eloquent paragraphs.
it would just take a lot of time/research for one to feel really satisfied with their enneagram. that's my goal :).


Yes, and it's a valid opinion. I like it. How much would you say in your opinion that free will has to play in all of this?
i would say less than 1/3..
people aren't molded into truly free will based people. the freedom we believe we have is a facade. the choices we have are growing fewer by the year.
There's a difference in how much your free will shapes your actual personality vs how much free will affects your actions.
it's pretty sad how unconscious people are


Ok, awesome. Would you like to debate them?
lol hey i put the 3 view points up, so it's up to you to break em down..they're pretty awesome viewpoints though, i agree.

I don't like to put a number to my name so I wouldn't know if I was an 8, 2, or 4 so to speak. 3 seems most fitting based on the descriptions, though.

As for your mathematical calculation, well done! ;-)



I argue with you out of love of debate (entp stuff). Nothing more.
Please don't take offence to my aggressive nature.
It's just an approach, i guess I could work on it. :)

No idea. I'm not a firm believe in Myers Briggs stuff so that probably explains some of my cynicism, etc.
yah neither am i. only thing i like about mbti is that you can relate to other people with different enneagrams.
okay let me give it some thought.
 

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hahah, no.. i don't like the approach i took, looking back. it wasn't finished eitherr.
Oh ok, fair enough. What sparked you to write the ’10 page analysis’ on yourself and did you find it helped you to understand your enneagram more clearly? What kind of approach did you use when you wrote it?

Well, I am a 4. i agree with you that the connections wouldn't be so obvious to most people, but it's my primary concern so that doesn't apply to me. you're right, though.
What does being a 4 have to do with it? I suppose you mean that somehow the connections between your past and your enneagram are somehow more obvious to a 4? I am still learning about the enneagram as I have already said, so don’t take my probing questions the wrong way. I am not insinuating that you are mistaken in what you say, only curious to discover how insightful you are regarding that which you claim to understand so well in its application to your own life and past experiences. It’s inspiring that you have been so reflective of yourself. They say that fours aren’t afraid to go places where the other types wouldn’t dream of doing so, don’t they?

it would just take a lot of time/research for one to feel really satisfied with their enneagram. that's my goal :).
Well the thing that I don’t like about enneagram theory and all the rest is that they suggest that your personality is some fixed state of being that’s with you from birth and develops accordingly, withing the rules of the theory. In this way, you can only feel satisfied with your enneagram if you are satisfied to live within all the constraints of a type 4 (if that is what you type yourself as). You may grow to see that a lot of the things you claim to be a ‘victim’ of, aren’t really as bad as you thought for example, but if you are in the box so to speak you’ll always be in the same predicament of feeling that there is something fundamentally wrong with you at your core. That’s not a nice thing to be stuck in is it? I believe we can transcend the limitations the enneagram places on us through it’s own limitations as a theory, is what I’m saying.

the freedom we believe we have is a facade. the choices we have are growing fewer by the year.
There's a difference in how much your free will shapes your actual personality vs how much free will affects your actions.
If freedom is a façade, then life isn’t worth living. If I am programmed like some robot person to live according to a code ‘discovered’ for me by the so called experts, then I am most certainly unconscious as you say. I beg to differ though, and find the enneagram useful in so much as it explains a few aspects of behavior, but that’s it for me. I wouldn’t go as far as say it is the most fitting classification system to predict our forsee all most likely actions to events. Put it this way – if there were a handbook for the most likely ways a type 4 would respond to any given situation and you kept straying from that would you no longer be a type 4?

lol hey i put the 3 view points up, so it's up to you to break em down..they're pretty awesome viewpoints though, i agree.
Innate temperament – we are born with it but a lot of it can be controlled by the environment our family raises us in and the rules that are imposed up on us from day 1 of our lives, and as we continue to be raised. Put simply, temperament is either enhanced or aggravated by our home environments. No one has a ‘bad’ temperament, just a ‘bad mix’ of temperament and environment :D

Environmental Conditioning (but not just parental conditioning) – This is a big influence on personality and although it does not necessarily change our ‘basic structure’, it is something that may shape our approach to life, including things such as communication style, dress manner, and other cultural variants.

Free Will – Plays the biggest part potentially in my opinion. We can reach in and change our destiny, our selves, our lives, and our views/values if we are willing to. Free will is not what you can do, but more what you are willing to endure to be the one that will say ‘I will do it’.

yah neither am i. only thing i like about mbti is that you can relate to other people with different enneagrams
My awareness was the mbti (myers briggs type indicator) was a separate theory from the enneagram one. Do these two go together? I like that mbti gives you the power to understand different and varying cognitive functions and therefore to be more able to ‘put yourself in their shoes’. Each person wears their own pair, but at least if you’ve tried on boots on a winter day, you will know what it’s like for the person who wears boots in summer. ;-)
 

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long ass reply. you might jst want to merge this into a pm..

Oh ok, fair enough. What sparked you to write the &#821710 page analysis&#8217 on yourself and did you find it helped you to understand your enneagram more clearly? What kind of approach did you use when you wrote it?
welll i was really upset during hs one day.. and I just couldn't hold in my emotions any longer, so I tried to figure out why I was so imbalanced. i just began writing furiously and the first part of my life was on paper half an hr later. lol only reason i mentioned the paper was jst cuz i was saying that psycho-analysis came natural to some people. I basically said the fact that i had 0 friends in elementary caused me to be unnaturally clingy.

i agree it was that ego construct combined with my sx/so energies and my 4.. making me be the overdramatic tragic romantic i've been in the past. the fact that i don't want to think about it is sad in itself! but i gotta give it some thought soon. it's a part of my life i need to address on an emotional level.


What does being a 4 have to do with it? I suppose you mean that somehow the connections between your past and your enneagram are somehow more obvious to a 4? I am still learning about the enneagram as I have already said, so don&#8217t take my probing questions the wrong way. I am not insinuating that you are mistaken in what you say, only curious to discover how insightful you are regarding that which you claim to understand so well in its application to your own life and past experiences. It&#8217s inspiring that you have been so reflective of yourself. They say that fours aren&#8217t afraid to go places where the other types wouldn&#8217t dream of doing so, don&#8217t they?
Yep, that's exactly what I'm saying.

and they do say that. lol sounds a bit unrealistic if you ask me... gives 4s even more of a melodramatic flair..
Though i'd say that's more associative when there's a 5 influence; either through having that wing, or due to it being part of your thinking center.
otherwise we're not as "dark". i guess that's what that saying is referring too.. delving into our own darkness. (intensifying moods is quite common)

Well the thing that I don&#8217t like about enneagram theory and all the rest is that they suggest that your personality is some fixed state of being that&#8217s with you from birth and develops accordingly, withing the rules of the theory. In this way, you can only feel satisfied with your enneagram if you are satisfied to live within all the constraints of a type 4 (if that is what you type yourself as). You may grow to see that a lot of the things you claim to be a &#8216victim&#8217 of, aren&#8217t really as bad as you thought for example, but if you are in the box so to speak you&#8217ll always be in the same predicament of feeling that there is something fundamentally wrong with you at your core. That&#8217s not a nice thing to be stuck in is it? I believe we can transcend the limitations the enneagram places on us through it&#8217s own limitations as a theory, is what I&#8217m saying.

I don't see why you have to "live" within an enneagram (it lives within you!).. lol you have to approach the enneagram as a tool, not an outfit you throw on or a box you move into. if you're so afraid of boxes, let me assure you that the enneagram is composed of not 3, not 4, but 5 dimensions.. you have your Core layout (whether you identify first/second/third with your head/heart/gut.), your instinctual stackings (good chart on instinctual stackings here: http://www.enneagramdimensions.net/articles/subtype_relationships.pdf ), your wing possibilities, and your healthy level. plus the stress/integrating lines.
that's 5-6D right there.

once you're knowledgeable enough on the enneagram to see your different connections and wings in actions, and you work on growing.. you'll begin to embody in more depth the many positive aspects of your enneagram. since you have 3 cores with a wing each, that's 6 out of 9 potentially. each of those 6 have an integrating line. that's 12 points touched on right there. chances are you've touched every number on the circle.. So there really aren't any "constraints". but i don't really get what's being constrained here? your fulfillment? so you're a 3w2? okay let me put a couple things here..
"3: Fear of being worthless or without inherent value.
2: Fear of being unworthy of being loved.
3: the desire to be valuable (deteriorates into chasing after success)
2: The desire to be loved (deteriorates into the need to be needed).
"An invitation to abundance"
3s To develop yourself and set an example for others. Remember that it is your true nature to take pleasure in your existence and to esteem and value others.
2s: To nurture yourself and others. Remember that it is your true nature to be good to yourself and to have goodwill and compassion for others.

Twos attempt to get a sense of value by saying, "I know I am valuable because others love and value me. I do good things for people, and they appreciate me." Twos are rescuers. On the opposite side of the spectrum, fours are rescuees. Fours tell themselves "I know I am valuable because I am unique and unlike anyone else. I am special because someone took the trouble to rescue me. Someone is taking the trouble to attend to my distress so i must be worthwhile." (so true..) "Threes are paragons who do not need rescuing, as if to say "I know I am valuable because I've got my act together-there's nothing wrong with me. I am valuable because of my accomplishments." Despite their individual methods for "building self-esteem", all three of these types lack a proper love of self. "..."By attempting to feel valuable by means of their self-image, these types hope to escape feelings of shame. Twos become ultragood, trying to be caring and of service to others so that they will not feel shame. Threes become perfect in their performance and outstanding in their achievements so they will be able to resist feeling shame. Fours avoid deeper feelings of shame by dramatizing their losses and hurts by seeing themselves as victims."

I identify soo strongly with 4. a lot with 3 . an quite a bit with 2. then again, they are in my tri-type. 7,8, and 9 are the ones I do not identify with..

I jst wrote all of that as a reminder..


If freedom is a façade, then life isn&#8217t worth living. If I am programmed like some robot person to live according to a code &#8216discovered&#8217 for me by the so called experts, then I am most certainly unconscious as you say. I beg to differ though, and find the enneagram useful in so much as it explains a few aspects of behavior, but that&#8217s it for me. I wouldn&#8217t go as far as say it is the most fitting classification system to predict our forsee all most likely actions to events. Put it this way &#8211 if there were a handbook for the most likely ways a type 4 would respond to any given situation and you kept straying from that would you no longer be a type 4?

i guess by freedom i should have said "liberty". liberty is freedom being institutionalized. it's not like there's a "code". if you want to view it that way, go ahead.
see, you're missing the big picture here..I'm referring to society as a whole. err, well culture would be a bit more accurate. or our government. That's a wholeee nother topic tho, and i don't want to get into how sad it is living in this country.. for instance, if you're a protest organizer or have radical views (ron paul/ 3rd party..), these fusion centers put your name in a database.. mark you a threat to society as well. You can't tell me that doesn't impinge on the application of my free will. Sure I can still go ahead and do that... but i'm putting myself at risk by doing so. therefore the decision making was altered by external influences... that interferes with my free will. the american dream is just meant to propagate elitism/dividing. sigh neways.

plus, this wouldn't happen. I am a type 4 and I will always identify with it. It is the truth. I have thought many times to myself that I was an ever changing person. It was because my perception of 'being' was pretty limited and unfounded. (before i knew about the enneagram)
If you had more research under your belt, or a little bit more help guiding your search, you'd end up being satisfied with your enneagram..

It's worsened the fact that there hast' been enough type/tri-type research by enough people. people mistype left and right because they don't know their own tri-type, or get confused and give up due to many similarities with multiple types. there's a reason the people i know the best in person have been identifying with a core from the thinking/feeling/ and instinctual center (only one core each.. and also with a certain core wing subtype explanation.. for instance 1w2 5w6.) .. it's because it's the way our consciousness interacts. it needs a "nucleus" for each aspect.



Innate temperament &#8211 we are born with it but a lot of it can be controlled by the environment our family raises us in and the rules that are imposed up on us from day 1 of our lives, and as we continue to be raised. Put simply, temperament is either enhanced or aggravated by our home environments. No one has a &#8216bad&#8217 temperament, just a &#8216bad mix&#8217 of temperament and environment :D

Environmental Conditioning (but not just parental conditioning) &#8211 This is a big influence on personality and although it does not necessarily change our &#8216basic structure&#8217, it is something that may shape our approach to life, including things such as communication style, dress manner, and other cultural variants.
my gf tried to argue this last night when i showed her your post... well you're both misunderstanding innate temperament.. innate means before any influence. "unconditioned: not established by conditioning or learning".
furthermore, as i've said earlier, our environmental conditions can impinge on our free will.

picture this.. lets say you have a bad memory you haven't gotten over completely yet (haven't really cried it all out or felt it all out.. whatever your method is.. me, i like to meditate) . well if you bring that memory up into consciousness.. you're going to start feeling some negative energy. that's an example of an ego structure. it has to be composed of energy because it affects you on a somatic(bodily) level. plus even on a deeper level. T

We all know about how memories factor, unconsciously, into our reactions everyday. i think they're just ego constructs that we haven't gotten rid of yet.. or that we could still slowly be in the process of breaking down.
this is why i think innate temperament isn't negative or volatile at all. We have just accumulated ego structures with negative foundations. All this deep negativity manifests in lack of fulfillment, confidence, patience, etcetc.. there's a reason meditative purging is so useful..

It's why some people are so untrusting. like me. i'm getting better and better everyday at getting over years of being untrusting. getting over these "betrayals" i've experienced.. shit happens. i brought it upon myself by doing bad things. soo i'll be better now.



Free Will &#8211 Plays the biggest part potentially in my opinion. We can reach in and change our destiny, our selves, our lives, and our views/values if we are willing to. Free will is not what you can do, but more what you are willing to endure to be the one that will say &#8216I will do it&#8217.
I agree, "potentially". I believe if we try to alter our innate self though, we are only working towards self-deception.. I believe in something before conception. Maybe that sounds a bit spiritual, but I am a spiritual person afterall.
free will - "the power of making free choices unconstrained by external agencies".

i'd love to believe most of my country's citizens are primarily free-willed thinkers... but it's just not the case.. the external is factored into decisions far too often. outer acceptance = inner acceptance.. this attitude is so defeating.
i'm being pretty vague and ambiguous because i've never touched on this subject before. there's a reason people are in more debt in america than anywhere else. we are so commercialized and afflicted with a lack of integrity and compassion.
though it plays a role.. i think free-will's role in personality has degenerated over the centuries and it's our innate temperament that determines our potentialities and the environmental conditioning that determines the polarity and intensity ( - or + ). we're taught that certain traits are undesirable in society and others aren't.
this doesn't make for positive reinforcement of the psyche.


My awareness was the mbti (myers briggs type indicator) was a separate theory from the enneagram one. Do these two go together? I like that mbti gives you the power to understand different and varying cognitive functions and therefore to be more able to ]put yourself in their shoes&]. Each person wears their own pair, but at least if you've tried on boots on a winter day, you will know what it&]s like for the person who wears boots in summer. ;-)
nah, they don't go together. i didn't make that claim i dnt think either. idk if u thought that, but i was just saying you can group similar people with mbti even though they have a much different enneagram. but someone's mbti is going to be based off the enneagram. we show more variance than the mbti accounts for, however.
 

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welll i was really upset during hs one day..
Does that stand for home schooling?

and I just couldn't hold in my emotions any longer, so I tried to figure out why I was so imbalanced. i just began writing furiously and the first part of my life was on paper half an hr later.
You must have a lot of insight into your own emotions to be able to write out half your life in half an hour, assuming you wrote about the things that you experienced from a subjective viewpoint with a focus on your emotions rather than an objective report on the different things you did growing up.

Did you do this piece of writing before or after you had researched the enneagram stuff?

only reason i mentioned the paper was jst cuz i was saying that psycho-analysis came natural to some people.
Well that depends on the paper, including how you wrote it and what you knew about psychoanalysis as you reflected. It's fantastic and inspiring that you were able to go on a 10 page rant about your emotions which I'm sure gave you a lot of awareness and insight into your own feelings, but the way you interpret those emotions isn't necessarily going to be accurate or based on psychoanalytical theory (not saying that psychoanalysis is the most accurate form of therapy).

It sounds like you were trying to take your emotions into your own hands which is truly inspiring as I have already said, but human nature is complicated and we all have a lot to learn when it comes to our emotions (maybe I'm just being an emotionally stunted NT here). If so, feel free to challenge my emotional ignorance, lol.

I basically said the fact that i had 0 friends in elementary caused me to be unnaturally clingy.
I'm really sorry to hear that, it must have been hard I imagine. I have a blog on life traps if you're interested but to me, that sounds like it could be part of the social exclusions life trap. Here let me post the text.

Social Exclusion

Social Exclusion involves your connection to friends and groups. It has to do with feeling isolated from the rest of the world, with feeling different. If you have this lifetrap, as a child you felt excluded by peers. You did not belong to a group of friends. Perhaps you had some unusual characteristic that made you feel different in some way. As an adult, you maintain your lifetrap mainly through avoidance. You avoid socializing in groups and making friends.

You may have felt excluded because there was something about you that other children rejected. Hence you felt socially undesirable. As an adult you may feel that you are ugly, sexually undesirable, low in status, poor in conversational skills, boring, or otherwise deficient. You reenact your childhood rejection - you feel and act inferior in social situations.

It is not always apparent that someone has a Social Exclusion lifetrap. Many people with this lifetrap are quite comfortable in intimate settings and are quite socially skilled. Their lifetrap may not show in one-to-one relationships. It sometimes surprises us to realize how anxious and aloof they may feel at parties, in classes, at meetings, or at work. They have a restless quality, a quality of looking for a place to belong.


SCORING KEY

1 Completely untrue of me
2 Mostly untrue of me
3 Slightly more ture than untrue of me
4 Moderately true of me
5 Mostly true of me
6 Describes me perfectly

If you have any 5's or 6's on this questionanaire, this lifetrap may still apply to you, even if your score is in the low range.


SCORE INTERPRETATION

10-19 Very Low. This lifetrap probably does not apply to you.
20-29 Fairly Low. This lifetrap may only applyoccasionally.
30-39 Moderate. This lifetrap is an issue in your life.
40 - 49 High. This is definitely an important lifetrap for you.
50-60 Very High. This is definitely one of your core
lifetraps.


SOCIAL EXCLUSION CRITERIA

1) I feel very self-conscious in social situations.

2) I feel dull and boring at parties and other gatherings. I never know what to say.

3) The people I want as friends are above me in some way (e.g. looks, popularity, wealth, status, education, career).

4) I would rather avoid than attend most social functions.

5) I feel unattractive - too fat, thin, tall, short, ugly, etc.

6) I feel fundamentally different from other people.

7) I do not belong anywhere, I am a loner.

8) I always feel on the outside of groups.

9) My family was different from the families around us.

10) I feel disconnected from the community at large.

Your total Score = (Add your scores together for questions 1-10)

Being clingy may have also been related to other life traps such as emotional deprivation, if you are interested I suggest taking a look at my blog here: Identifying Life Traps

Ok, I'll have to do part 2 to your reply a little later or tomorrow night, as work calls and I still have a lot to respond to. Looking forward to sharing the rest of my thoughts with you. It's been worthwhile. Keep searching for the answers, they are out there. That's what I tell myself, lol.
 

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I want to say 3w2 but only if they're healthy since 3s are probably more likely than most other types to be unhealthy, along with 4. I'd say in terms of charisma it's generally 7>3>2>8=6
 
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