Personality Cafe banner

21 - 36 of 36 Posts

·
Plague Doctor
Joined
·
5,927 Posts
Narcissistic Personality Disorder is a mental illness.

Mental Illness is an equal-opportunity-type-employer.

Threads like this are terribly stigmatising and lead to stereotypes. This thread is typist and self-promotive of the OP. I don't understand why it hasn't been taken down either.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
404 Posts
I don't think there's any particular type associated with Narcissism, although I think FJ types are probably less prone than Ts and FPs.

I do think most psychopaths tend to either be TPs or NTJs though. Very few would be Feelers and ISTJs and ESTJs tend to be too conscientious and value rules too much to be psychopaths. I'd say the STPs have the most in common with psychopaths, followed closely by the NTPs and then the NTJs a bit further behind.

Actually not all psychopaths are bad people. I read that only about 15% of them can be classified as antisocial, which is higher than the 2% or so of the general population, but still a minority. Most psychopaths are actually law abiding people (even if only out of convenience) and I'm sure a lot of them contribute to their communities.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,329 Posts
Narcissists and psychopaths are different beasts though.

Narcissists demand constant validation and praise, thus why I believe an F type can definitely fit the bill. It's hard to imagine a F type being a psychopath though. If they are, they must be the clueless kind in that they believe in their inner core that they're always doing the right thing, oblivious to the fact that they only act in their own self-interests and screw everyone around them. A T type psychopath however is probably devoid of any thoughts of morality. That's why I do believe psychos are probably by default TP types. Their lower Fe only serves to monitor people's reactions and act accordingly but there's not an ounce of ''I think that would hurt their feelings'' it's only about what they can get away with. I think TJ types can't really be psychopaths at least from a clinical standpoint. Fi, no matter how low and dysfunctional it may be demands moral justifications for one's actions and is self-reflective. At worst I think TJ types will be cold and domineering assholes who push and bully people around for (what they think) is a perfectly justifiable goal. But that leans more towards narcissism or just shitty people skills than anti-social behavior.

Also, I don't partake in this belief that NTJs have the potential to somehow be more evil or morally corrupt than STJs. I think this is a myth brought on by all these fictional NTJ villains we see in media, which their is an overly exaggerated abundance of. But that's only people because are lazy when it comes to writing villains. It's just easier to go for the by-the-book megalomaniac NTJ who wants to carry out his plan and step on everyone in his way, rather than a very complex, multi-layered SF villain for instance.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
404 Posts
Narcissists and psychopaths are different beasts though.

Narcissists demand constant validation and praise, thus why I believe an F type can definitely fit the bill. It's hard to imagine a F type being a psychopath though. If they are, they must be the clueless kind in that they believe in their inner core that they're always doing the right thing, oblivious to the fact that they only act in their own self-interests and screw everyone around them. A T type psychopath however is probably devoid of any thoughts of morality. That's why I do believe psychos are probably by default TP types. Their lower Fe only serves to monitor people's reactions and act accordingly but there's not an ounce of ''I think that would hurt their feelings'' it's only about what they can get away with. I think TJ types can't really be psychopaths at least from a clinical standpoint. Fi, no matter how low and dysfunctional it may be demands moral justifications for one's actions and is self-reflective. At worst I think TJ types will be cold and domineering assholes who push and bully people around for (what they think) is a perfectly justifiable goal. But that leans more towards narcissism or just shitty people skills than anti-social behavior.

Also, I don't partake in this belief that NTJs have the potential to somehow be more evil or morally corrupt than STJs. I think this is a myth brought on by all these fictional NTJ villains we see in media, which their is an overly exaggerated abundance of. But that's only people because are lazy when it comes to writing villains. It's just easier to go for the by-the-book megalomaniac NTJ who wants to carry out his plan and step on everyone in his way, rather than a very complex, multi-layered SF villain for instance.
I've looked at polls of self-professed psychopaths and some of them do say they are TJ types, although TP types are probably still more common. I think it leans more towards TP because of secondary psychopathy, which is characterized largely by impulsivity.

I disagree that Fi always leads to empathy therefore TJs cannot truly be evil. Values yes, but Fi values can be completely self-centered or very warped. INTJs actually rate slightly higher in primary psychopathy than INTPs.
 

·
Plague Doctor
Joined
·
5,927 Posts
INTJs actually rate slightly higher in primary psychopathy than INTPs.
What, exactly is secondary psychopathy? Both me and @Wellsy have dabbled a bit in the study of psychopathy and I've never heard of this before (Wellsy, that's why I summon you as well to this thread - have you heard of this?).

Also, where do you get this particular statistic? I wasn't aware there had ever been a study of psychopathy and MBTI type. I'd be extremely interested in their methods especially.

I do have to say that I find it so sad that many cannot seem to see the depth of heart inside the INTJ. It is something I struggle to defend and bright light to, but I've learned to remain silent as my efforts are destined to fall upon deaf ears.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
314 Posts
@brightflashes Psychopathy is a field of study and a condition which happens on a continuum, i.e. a spectrum. Psychopathy is split into two factors:

Factor 1 Psychopathy (Classic Psychopathy) which is mainly Interpersonal and includes symptoms like: Cold Heartedness, Low emotionality such as fearlessness, shallow emotions, Callousness, Superficial Charm, Grandiosity and Pathological Lying.

Factor 2 Psychopathy (AKA Sociopathy) is mainly Affective and Behavioral. Symptoms are: Antisocial tendencies, Impulsivity, unstable emotions, Parasytic lifestyle, irresponsibility, lack of empathy.

EDIT: A lot of INTJs including myself score high on Factor 1 Psychopathy on that test, but what it is measuring is Sub-clinical Psychopathy, not Clinical Psychopathy, I believe the test itself stated that a score of 97% or above would indicate Clinical Psychopathy. Scoring high on Factor 1 Psychopathy has a lot less meaning than scoring high on factor 2 psychopathy because Factor 1 Psychopathy is something an individual is born with via genetics. Factor 1 Psychopathy is essentially just lack of brain Structure which renders subjects incapable of experiencing many emotions. So yeah, INTJs may have "Psychopathic tendencies" like many other Thinking types, but that doesn't mean anything.

EDIT 2: This is the test I spoke of https://openpsychometrics.org/tests/LSRP.php. Below is a chart of average MBTI type scores from a sample of a couple of hundred people:

 


 

·
Registered
Joined
·
314 Posts
For some reason INTJs are "Strongly correlated" with Narcissistic Personality Disorder according IDRLabs and other websites. A study on the correlations between Personality Disorder scores on some inventory and MBTI scores was conducted (one of its kind I think) and came up with NPD only correlated significantly with iNtuition, the rest somewhat / vaguely correlating with IxTJ: https://www.uccs.edu/Documents/dsegal/An-empirical-investigation-Jungs-types-and-PD-features-JPT-2.pdf, barely a "Strong Correlation"
 

·
Plague Doctor
Joined
·
5,927 Posts
@LonelySpaceEmperor

Ah. Thank you for the clarification. I've only actually studied biological psychopathy (James Fallon type stuff). I am not particularly fond of self-report though I recognise it is used a lot in the field. I remember w hen the Hare checklist was updated, the actual guy who updated it (I can't remember his name), was talking to me about it and I didn't know it was him and I was like "Oh do you think that's actually going to work? I mean, it's not like it's really all that new. It's the same methods. We should try for an objective test" and he ... well, didn't have anything to say back. I felt so horrible when I realised it was the actual guy haha.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,484 Posts
I do think most psychopaths tend to either be TPs or NTJs though. Very few would be Feelers and ISTJs and ESTJs tend to be too conscientious and value rules too much to be psychopaths.
Your reasoning is poor. Not all rules are benign or beneficial. People can follow rules and still end up doing psychopathic things if the rules are harmful enough. Hitler's officers were doing psychopathic things by following Hitler's rules.

People can be conscientious about almost anything, not just good things, not just non-psychopathic things.

And the thread is about narcissism, not psychopathy.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
404 Posts
What, exactly is secondary psychopathy? Both me and @Wellsy have dabbled a bit in the study of psychopathy and I've never heard of this before (Wellsy, that's why I summon you as well to this thread - have you heard of this?).

Also, where do you get this particular statistic? I wasn't aware there had ever been a study of psychopathy and MBTI type. I'd be extremely interested in their methods especially.

I do have to say that I find it so sad that many cannot seem to see the depth of heart inside the INTJ. It is something I struggle to defend and bright light to, but I've learned to remain silent as my efforts are destined to fall upon deaf ears.
It wasn't a very scientific study, some person polled the different types in terms of how high they ranked in psychopathic traits. None of the individual types ranked particularly high, although ENTP and ESTP ranked the highest.

I think primary psychopathy is more like "meanness" and secondary psychopathy is impulsivity and rule breaking.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
404 Posts
@brightflashes Psychopathy is a field of study and a condition which happens on a continuum, i.e. a spectrum. Psychopathy is split into two factors:

Factor 1 Psychopathy (Classic Psychopathy) which is mainly Interpersonal and includes symptoms like: Cold Heartedness, Low emotionality such as fearlessness, shallow emotions, Callousness, Superficial Charm, Grandiosity and Pathological Lying.

Factor 2 Psychopathy (AKA Sociopathy) is mainly Affective and Behavioral. Symptoms are: Antisocial tendencies, Impulsivity, unstable emotions, Parasytic lifestyle, irresponsibility, lack of empathy.

EDIT: A lot of INTJs including myself score high on Factor 1 Psychopathy on that test, but what it is measuring is Sub-clinical Psychopathy, not Clinical Psychopathy, I believe the test itself stated that a score of 97% or above would indicate Clinical Psychopathy. Scoring high on Factor 1 Psychopathy has a lot less meaning than scoring high on factor 2 psychopathy because Factor 1 Psychopathy is something an individual is born with via genetics. Factor 1 Psychopathy is essentially just lack of brain Structure which renders subjects incapable of experiencing many emotions. So yeah, INTJs may have "Psychopathic tendencies" like many other Thinking types, but that doesn't mean anything.

EDIT 2: This is the test I spoke of https://openpsychometrics.org/tests/LSRP.php. Below is a chart of average MBTI type scores from a sample of a couple of hundred people:

 


I'm surprised that ENFPs rank so high in secondary psychopathy.
 

·
Plague Doctor
Joined
·
5,927 Posts
I'm surprised that ENFPs rank so high in secondary psychopathy.
Do you happen to know how they measured for type? I'm always interested in how they determine type in those sorts of studies. While type is returned consistently at a 78% rate on MBTI (the most recent statistic I have seen at least), it's still far from perfected. : )

Sounds like they were studying antisocial personality disorder perhaps? Psychopaths, in my experience, aren't "mean". I forgot to add I also did a small prison study, but that was for school and nothing at all scientific except that it was directed by a professor and a statistician.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
404 Posts
Do you happen to know how they measured for type? I'm always interested in how they determine type in those sorts of studies. While type is returned consistently at a 78% rate on MBTI (the most recent statistic I have seen at least), it's still far from perfected. : )

Sounds like they were studying antisocial personality disorder perhaps? Psychopaths, in my experience, aren't "mean". I forgot to add I also did a small prison study, but that was for school and nothing at all scientific except that it was directed by a professor and a statistician.
It was self identified type, and based on a study on Tumblr, but I saw another study that found similar results (ExTPs having the most psychopathic traits, and FJs the least).

I think primary psychopath relates more to shallow emotions and callous affect (these people aren't necessarily mean or bad like you said, Alex Honnold the mountain climber is a very admirable person and is much like this) while secondary psychopathy relates more to antisocial personality disorder (who are really just people who commit antisocial acts, but are usually dysfunctional neurotypicals rather than genuine psychopaths).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
35 Posts
Just took the test:
Primary psychopathy-Higher than 41.38% of people who took the test.

Secondary psychopathy-Higher than 63.38% of people who took the test.

Here are some traits associated with primary psychopathy:
-Superficial charm
-Grandiose self-image
-Need for stimulation / being prone to boredom
-Pathological lying
-Cunning / manipulative
-Lack of remorse / guilt
-Shallow affect / superficial emotions
-Lack of empathy



Here are some traits associated with secondary psychopathy:
-Impulsiveness
-Lack of realistic long-term goals
-Juvenile delinquency
-Irresponsibility
-Parasitic lifestyle
-Poor behavioral controls
-Promiscuity


I don't identify with primary psychopathy with the exception of being slightly cunning / manipulative at times. My bottom line is: Never do anything to hurt decent individuals. However, if it's a person I find evil and morally detestable, and ESPECIALLY if it's a group or a system that I find not to my liking (and usually I have good reasons), then don't blame me for being remorseless if I do something damaging. In fact, I'd feel it's totally justified and that they probably deserve whatever's come their way. If I myself get hurt, it's a bit easier to control myself. However, if it's someone I love and care about, that's when the vindictive spirit within me is roused and I can act more viciously than I'd be willing to if it was something only concerning myself.


As for secondary psychopathy, I do have a very impulsive side. I definitely don't believe in a parasitic lifestyle. I believe in being good and doing my best to love, help, and serve. However, if again it's someone / something I find morally detestable, I would not hesitate to give them a taste of their own medicine and that's when anything resembling personal character and decency is shoved aside because I feel like I need to dish out vengeance whether actively or passively. Rules are made to be broken (unless there's a damn good reason to me as to why they should be followed), systems, bureaucracies are oppressive and tyrannical and meant to be challenged. Everything's fair game to me when it comes to acting against someone / something I feel is oppressive towards me and / or a loved one.

The bottom line is: If I love you, I'd move mountains for you. If I like you, I'd be good and caring and stick up for you. If you're neutral, I'd be decent but no more than that. If I dislike you, I'd try to avoid you. If you do anything to hurt me enough, and especially if you try to hurt a loved one of mine, then don't be surprised if anything happens to you. :)) And that could be anything :))
 

·
Plague Doctor
Joined
·
5,927 Posts
Oh! I get it. You guys are talking about the Levenson scale. I didn't know that was still being used to measure psychopathy. I haven't thought about that one in a long time.

You know, that test isn't used for diagnostic purposes at ALL. It's only used in research into human affect.
 
21 - 36 of 36 Posts
Top