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The No More Hero
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ATTENTION! WALL OF TEXT COMING. HOLD ON TO YOUR HATS. Or they're gonna fall.

As many of you know (and probably heard me talking about) Anita Sarkeesian is the self-proclaimed feminist from the YouTube channel Feminist Frequency https://www.youtube.com/user/feministfrequency who takes upon herself to explain tropes which are applied to female characters as if she is some kind of hardcore "feminist" version of TV Tropes. I was aware of her for a while now, but I never cared about what she was doing until she started a Kickstarted to do a series of videos on video games, which currently has 3 videos on the Damsel in Distress trope.

Like it wasn't enough that she is stealing game footage from let's plays and walkthroughs of others Youtubers (as shown here Vicsor's Opinion: Anita's Sources) she doesn't get what is going on in video games or why we feel attached to it or this isn't about a boy's club because more and more women play nor she understands that she is a troll bait with her lack of understanding.

She came to us, gamers, with a self entitled attitude saying that games aren't as she wishes and they should because she's woman and a feminist, but why is she wrong? What is doing wrong?

From a gamer point of view and even a human one, she doesn't understands feelings, she doesn't understand that she is the face of feminist to gamers and that gaming is just about playing and being good and/or enjoying.
In here series, she takes game scenes (like the ones on ICO, Dishonored, God of War and many other games) out of context and judges them as she best sees fit.
Let's look at her approach to Dishonored, which is a game I know pretty well.


This is the intro of the 2012 game Dishonored, a first person action game set in the fictional Empire of the Isles.

This is how much Anita shows of the intro:

In the game you play as Corvo Anatto, the Empress' personal bodyguard, and yes I said Empress. The Empire of the Isles has it's ruler a woman, the Empress Jessamine and next in line is her young daughter Emily.
The problem with Anita's interpretation and explanation of the games is that she sees Dishonored has a violent male power fantasy in which the Empress is killed, when in fact she's killed (and spoilers, sorry) because of a conspiracy made by the Royal Spymaster of the Empire. He contacted a man called Daud (the man in red) and his elite assassins to kill the Empress because he wanted to rule, he wanted power, he did not killed the Empress and kidnapped Emily because they're women, it's because they're POWERFUL, they're as politically powerful as a person can get. But Anita didn't play the game, she only saw the trailers, she probably didn't even read the Wikipedia page for the game or the game's Wiki, to know that the Empress was killed over power. Or maybe she knows and chose to ignore it for the sake for her argument (which honestly, I would be surprised).

To me, Dishonored, feels like a female power fantasy. Surely, most of characters are males and you play as a male, but as you play you'll notice that Corvo is manipulated by everyone, especially by women, into doing what they want him to do because of his emotional attachment to Emily. It's not only his duty and his honor that he is after (or his masculinity like Anita likes to say), he's after the only "family" he got left because he sees Emily as his daughter and to Emily Corvo is her father figure.
Each important women in the game represent some kind of power that women have/might have in game and/or in real life.

Let's see how this works:
Callista Curnow is the caretaker of the future Empress and teaches her what she needs to know to become an Empress, representing the so female power of Education.
Emily Kaldwin and her mother represent, of course, Political power.
Lady Boyle holds the Sexual power, especially Esma Boyle. All of the sisters bad expriences seem to go around sex and they seem to use it to hold power in a Victorian-like world. Like her, Madame Prudence holds Sexual power over men, though in a different way, being the owner of the Golden Cat, a brothel and bathhouse.
Grammy Rags the once beautiful Vera Moray held Sexual power over men in her youth (having men who wanted to marry her fight over her) and holds the power of Black Magic after meeting with a man with black eyes. Of course, she helds Magic power unlike any other man in the game does, being almost immortal.
Last but not least, is a character from the DLC Knife of Dunwall, Billie Lurk who is the second of the elite assassin group who killed the Empress. She holds Physical power, being one of the most powerful characters in game.

Anita ignores this by calling the game a male powered violent revenge fantasy in which a man goes after his daughter.

Where Anita truly fails is to understand that gaming is not only a bussiness but most of players are male and being male maybe having a male character lose their mother/wife/girlfriend/daughter is more effective to them than is losing their father. For a game to be well done (if it's not a mindless shooter) we have to feel for the characters and it is easy to feel for a female character, especially one that we need to protect and love like Emily is to Corvo and eventually the player.

This is where she really fails. She lack feelings. She doesn't understand what we feel for the characters or the story.

In her last video she was supposted to present reserved roles of this, but she presents nothing and keeps on talking about how video games are bad and going to attack indie games like Super Meat Boy! and Glish because of their simplistic save the girl plots and proving to have no sense of humour, so don't lose your time with that one.


Now that I'm over and done with, you're free to comment, bash me, say I'm right, kick me in the face, ignore me or whatever.
 

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My opinion on her videos is that I honestly don't think that the problems she points out are very important. I get the feeling that she is trying too hard to find these misogynistic portrayals of women in video games in places where they are irrelevant. Take the Super Mario games for example. I remember when I first started playing Mario games 18 years ago(those were also my first gaming experiences), and neither me nor anyone that I knew cared about the plot in those games. The plot in Super Mario is really simple and perhaps cliche, but that's because the entire point of those games is the game play. When I played Mario games I didn't think that "oh I must save the princess" but "this time I'm going to get through all the challenges of the level and progress!". This also applies to Super Meat Boy which is another game where the plot is irrelevant. It could be anything and it still wouldn't make any difference. Anyone who puts too meaning into the plots of platforming games are just over-analyzing imo.

Of course there are many games where plot and story are important, but I don't see the point of criticizing story writers for writing whatever they like. They are just fictional stories and I never see them as more than that.If I really wanted to I could of course point out bad portrayal of both men and women in video games, but what would I achieve by doing that? I could for example say that Gothic 1 portrays men poorly, because it's set in a all-male penal colony filled with greedy criminals, barons, drug addicts, mercenaries and lunatics, but rather than criticize Gothic 1 for it's plot I would applaud it.

Her criticism of video games can also only be applied to the specific games that she has picked, and not to video games in general. Her list of games presented in her videos may seem impressive, but it's tiny compared to the vast amount of video games out there. I'll admit that I haven't played the majority of the games that she mentioned despite having played games of many different games for almost 20 years. But that may also indicate that there was a certain degree of cherry picking going on in her game library.

Oh and I agree with you that her portrayal of Dishonored is bad. I just don't think there is anything bad about the way that women are portrayed there. Not once did it occur to me that someone could see Dishonored that way, but I guess that's what happens if you play a game to specifically find misogyny.
 

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I've been waiting for a bulletpoint breakdown of her views on each game. Haven't found it yet.

Wasn't her point to highlight tropes in games? Of which there are many.
 

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I presume you've already watched Thunderf00t's video responses to Anita's claims?


My main gripe with Sarkeesian, is as you said yourself; her lack of understanding of the games which she is discussing - and her often completely out of context representation of them.

What I will say to her merit, however, is that when it comes to video game lead characters, female leads tend to rarely experience as much depth or exploration as male leads do. Jim Sterling explains this better than I can:



The way I see it... the vast majority of claims to Sexism within video games lack any concise evidence, without being twisted and falsely represented. However, the biggest exception to this is some fairly blatant instances of female objectification across a large number of franchises. And why? Because sex sells. Game developers know this - and so they exploit it. That's not me attempting to justify it, of course. It's just the way it is.

Beyond that, I cannot think of many instances within games, where women are genuinly represented in such a way as to appear inherently inferior to, or weaker than men. Jesus, have you played some of the female characters in the Dynasty Warriors franchise? They're just as powerful and terrifying as the men xD

 

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I think she has a few points, a few being the key words there. It's covered by too much personal political agenda for my tastes.
 

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All social issues (in these examples feminism and video games) end up being perceived and thus later presented from one angle or another. The social issues are usually perceived then presented from good intentions, even if they are doing so from a false "correlation = causation" standpoint. (I'm not really taking a side in this case.)

While video games have historically enforced our society's set standards on what roles males and females should follow, is it the video game designers' fault or is it society's fault? If it's society's fault however, is it not irresponsible for media outlets to continue to foster it? Again, these are just rhetorical questions that people may want to consider.

Truth be told, if it weren't for social groups (such as feminists and equalists), necessary social change would take a lot longer to occur--even if the groups do not always approach it from the "right perspective."
 

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I hate that person vividly, she is detrimental to the cause.

Her goal is to drive a feminist agenda, not to provide balanced and informed content.

That'd be all nice and well if she was only spouting crap to the feminist audience. But sources that are supposed to know better are covering, and siding with her, which is horrendous.
 

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I don't really care that much about feminism in video games or whatever but actually she's usually right and definitely knows more about what she's talking about than the OP. Also the "she stole footage from lets play" videos is the dumbest thing ever lol, who the fuck cares? Just crybaby gamers who aren't comfortable with what she says grasping at straws to discredit her. If someone stole from a Bioshock Infinite LP to make their "top 10 most fapworthy Elizabeth moments" video no one would give a shit. Also, nitpicking her arguments on one specific game doesn't mean she is wrong in general.
AyaSullivan said:
To me, Dishonored, feels like a female power fantasy. Surely, most of characters are males and you play as a male, but as you play you'll notice that Corvo is manipulated by everyone, especially by women, into doing what they want him to do because of his emotional attachment to Emily. It's not only his duty and his honor that he is after (or his masculinity like Anita likes to say), he's after the only "family" he got left because he sees Emily as his daughter and to Emily Corvo is her father figure.
First you say the fact that they are women is immaterial to the fact that the game kills and mistreats them, because that happens because of their political power. Next you say the fact that they are women in positions of political power makes the game a female power fantasy, despite the fact that the driving actor of the game is a male, who sneaks around guarded compounds, murders people, uses superpowers, etc. You can't have it both ways, if its not misogynist for powerful women to be killed in the game's story its not feminist because the game has powerful women in the first place. You also can't treat background story events as if its equal to the plot and direct experience of the storyline driven by the (male) player character. The "powerful female characters" are essentially story props to drive the protagonist's action.
AyaSullivan said:
Lady Boyle holds the Sexual power, especially Esma Boyle....Grammy Rags the once beautiful Vera Moray held Sexual power over men in her youth (having men who wanted to marry her fight over her) and holds the power of Black Magic after meeting with a man with black eyes.
Ah yes, women who hold "sexual power" through being unscrupulous temptresses who use their feminine wiles to manipulate men away from more noble pursuits, how feminist. I can't believe I'm seriously posting about this topic.
Husgark said:
Anyone who puts too meaning into the plots of platforming games are just over-analyzing imo.
Well I think part of the point being made is that in games like these, though the story is not that "important," the central narrative defaults to a certain archetype that is patently patriarchal (empowered man saving the damsel in distress). I would agree that I don't particularly care about that and I don't find it particularly offensive in the context of a Super Mario game or whatever and that its also a pretty superficial and obvious point in the first place, but I don't think its an invalid one. Also judging by the reaction of "gaming communities" (ugh) online to such arguments it seems like her points may not be as obvious to a lot of people as they might be to you or me.
Husgark said:
Of course there are many games where plot and story are important, but I don't see the point of criticizing story writers for writing whatever they like.
I really think you're underestimating the value of critics here. Criticism in film, literature, art etc has done much to advance those mediums and provide new insights both to audiences and new artists. The point here is the same as it is for those mediums: To spur developers to make better and more interesting games. This is particularly needed in the game industry since most of the industry's "official" critics are completely bought out mouthpieces for publishers. Someone like Sarkeesian is far more valuable than yet another IGN stooge giving a 9.5 to the latest CoD pile. Though I personally think with a game gameplay concerns should always take precedent over story or narrative ones, the latter can definitely complement or hobble the former in the right circumstances, and its not always a totally clear line between the two (especially in games like RPG's).
Husgark said:
Her criticism of video games can also only be applied to the specific games that she has picked, and not to video games in general. Her list of games presented in her videos may seem impressive, but it's tiny compared to the vast amount of video games out there. I'll admit that I haven't played the majority of the games that she mentioned despite having played games of many different games for almost 20 years. But that may also indicate that there was a certain degree of cherry picking going on in her game library.
Well, also, a whole lot of games get made, you can't really focus on all of them. If you're going to talk about games in general and about trends in the industry it makes sense to focus on more well known games which she usually does.
 

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The No More Hero
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Discussion Starter #9
My opinion on her videos is that I honestly don't think that the problems she points out are very important. I get the feeling that she is trying too hard to find these misogynistic portrayals of women in video games in places where they are irrelevant. Take the Super Mario games for example. I remember when I first started playing Mario games 18 years ago(those were also my first gaming experiences), and neither me nor anyone that I knew cared about the plot in those games. The plot in Super Mario is really simple and perhaps cliche, but that's because the entire point of those games is the game play. When I played Mario games I didn't think that "oh I must save the princess" but "this time I'm going to get through all the challenges of the level and progress!". This also applies to Super Meat Boy which is another game where the plot is irrelevant. It could be anything and it still wouldn't make any difference. Anyone who puts too meaning into the plots of platforming games are just over-analyzing imo.
I feel that she has good points, but I cannot take her seriously because of her arguments and the way she treats gamers, ignoring the rising numbers of female gamers who enjoy these games.
Games like Mario or Super Meat Boy! aren't about the plot, are about surpassing yourself and your friends, see who beats the game first and has the highest score. SMB! has the most wonderful cartoony art and music, but still most people play it because it's hard and to prove themselves. Nobody gives big thought to SMB!'s plot, we save that for The Binding of Isaac because the game deserves that.

Of course there are many games where plot and story are important, but I don't see the point of criticizing story writers for writing whatever they like. They are just fictional stories and I never see them as more than that.If I really wanted to I could of course point out bad portrayal of both men and women in video games, but what would I achieve by doing that? I could for example say that Gothic 1 portrays men poorly, because it's set in a all-male penal colony filled with greedy criminals, barons, drug addicts, mercenaries and lunatics, but rather than criticize Gothic 1 for it's plot I would applaud it.
I criticize because I love, but I don't say Silent Hill 2 is a bad representation of men because of James Sunderldand, it would be stupid to use such a tragic event as an argument to say that men are evil, same with Caim from Drakengard or even Nier from NieR Gestalt (surely Caim is not the best example, but he's not evil or abuses women despite his madness).
Anyone who had someone they love in some kind of danger (death, or just danger or illness) will understand why this trope works when well done.
It's the same with Dishonored. If you had a loved one taken way, you'll understand why Corvo goes into so much trouble and lets himself be manipulated and almost killed for Emily.

Her criticism of video games can also only be applied to the specific games that she has picked, and not to video games in general. Her list of games presented in her videos may seem impressive, but it's tiny compared to the vast amount of video games out there. I'll admit that I haven't played the majority of the games that she mentioned despite having played games of many different games for almost 20 years. But that may also indicate that there was a certain degree of cherry picking going on in her game library.
I could criticize newer games like Shadow of the Colossus for using the only female character, Mono, as a simple plot point for the main character, Wander, but I rather applaud his devotion to this death girl and his tragic end. I can see why this might be taken as a bad thing for women, but I understand Wander and his feelings and that why this trope still works now, the player gives a fuck. It's not about being the best for some of us any more, it's about caring and Anita doesn't understand that which worries me deeply.

Her criticism of video games can also only be applied to the specific games that she has picked, and not to video games in general. Her list of games presented in her videos may seem impressive, but it's tiny compared to the vast amount of video games out there. I'll admit that I haven't played the majority of the games that she mentioned despite having played games of many different games for almost 20 years. But that may also indicate that there was a certain degree of cherry picking going on in her game library.
She picked games that are popular or with characters that are popular, she's not picking the right games.

Oh and I agree with you that her portrayal of Dishonored is bad. I just don't think there is anything bad about the way that women are portrayed there. Not once did it occur to me that someone could see Dishonored that way, but I guess that's what happens if you play a game to specifically find misogyny.
Women are very well portyared in Dishonored, strong powerful. It's one of the few games that I know that shows that protitutes are sad people instead of making them glamorous creatures of the night.


@Vic I have of a few, but it's handwritten.
 

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I presume you've already watched Thunderf00t's video responses to Anita's claims?
Yes, they're amazing answers. I follow him on YouTube now.

What I will say to her merit, however, is that when it comes to video game lead characters, female leads tend to rarely experience as much depth or exploration as male leads do. Jim Sterling explains this better than I can
I've used Jim's videos as a supporting for my arguments about females being feared in gaming and sexism in video games but it always back fires because Jim is a male gamer and male gamers cannot have a saying in the matter.

Have you watched MrRepzion's videos on it?


That video got me in some shit because it's a 20 something white male and he has no saying on it and I cannot agree with it. I was called a misogynistic woman because of linking some of Repzion's videos.

The way I see it... the vast majority of claims to Sexism within video games lack any concise evidence, without being twisted and falsely represented. However, the biggest exception to this is some fairly blatant instances of female objectification across a large number of franchises. And why? Because sex sells. Game developers know this - and so they exploit it. That's not me attempting to justify it, of course. It's just the way it is.
These people forget that this is business and the ones to blame are the consumers, not the creators, they only do that because it sells. They're answering to our wishes of heroism and sexuality. Again, I say that she doesn't even tracks the right games.

She tracks this:

But not this:

Nice, Anita, nice.

Beyond that, I cannot think of many instances within games, where women are genuinly represented in such a way as to appear inherently inferior to, or weaker than men. Jesus, have you played some of the female characters in the Dynasty Warriors franchise? They're just as powerful and terrifying as the men xD
It is a very scary indeed! Reminds me a bit of Kainé from NieR. Half naked with twin swords, kick your ass and telling to fuck off.
There are very scary females in Cavia's game (Drakengard, NieR), especially in Drakengard when the powerful female Red Dragon starts agreeing on the blood thirsty male protagonist Caim on killing and getting powerful.

This was also a very scary moment from a woman in a video game
 

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The No More Hero
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I don't really care that much about feminism in video games or whatever but actually she's usually right and definitely knows more about what she's talking about than the OP.
If you don't care why are you here, if you don't mind me asking.
Anita has a few good points, but the worse arguments and examples ever. She likes to take things out of context and twist them so they fit her arguments so she can be right. She taken Dishonored out of context without even knowing what's going on in the game, like she has done with other games, MrRepzion's video that I have posted shows other examples of this.

OP. Also the "she stole footage from lets play" videos is the dumbest thing ever lol, who the fuck cares? Just crybaby gamers who aren't comfortable with what she says grasping at straws to discredit her.
Let's Players often capture their own videos and I'm pretty sure she could have done the same. The problem is that she didn't credit it and that is like giving no credit for people's works don't you think? Someone puts their time into a really good Top 10 or a Let's Play and you come and steal it. Imagine that you make a Top 10 and I steal it from you, your footage and don't credit you. How would you feel?

She could have used one of this to capture videos

If someone stole from a Bioshock Infinite LP to make their "top 10 most fapworthy Elizabeth moments" video no one would give a shit. Also, nitpicking her arguments on one specific game doesn't mean she is wrong in general.
It would be even worse and I'm pretty sure a lot of Bioshock fans would be angry at it and jump at it as easily.
Well, she is in her arguments and examples, I just chose Dishonored because it's easier to work on without giving too much away about the history. I could have as easily chose ICO, but that would be very spoiler heavy and I want people to understand it very easily and Dishonored is easier than most of the games she present and I played it more recently so I remember it better than Max Payne which I played ages ago.

First you say the fact that they are women is immaterial to the fact that the game kills and mistreats them, because that happens because of their political power. Next you say the fact that they are women in positions of political power makes the game a female power fantasy, despite the fact that the driving actor of the game is a male, who sneaks around guarded compounds, murders people, uses superpowers, etc.
The story kills the Empress, but not any other female in a Low Chaos run, expect (spoilers) Grammy Rags and that's a choice you make and is not easy to fight her. Same in Knife of Dunwall, (spoilers) you can chose to kill or not kill Billy Lurk because she betrayed her leader believing he had grown weaker because of the guilt of killing the Empress. Most people chose not to kill her and let her free.
The main character is a male, a pretty guy, nonetheless, who is controlled by women, like Calista, into doing what they want him to do.
Killing is not rewarded in the game. If you kill many Whalers, Overseers or anyone you'll spared the Rat Plague and end up with a High Chaos run which results in the worse two endings of the game and you can only blame yourself for them.

You can't have it both ways, if its not misogynist for powerful women to be killed in the game's story its not feminist because the game has powerful women in the first place.
It's not misogynist because she wasn't killed because she was a women. Everyone dies. Is death misogynistic too? The story is supposed to be somewhat realistic, close to our History, so it's normal that women that hold political power die, but so do men. And far more men die (or get badly hurt) than women. While Lady Boyle (in the Low Chaos run) gets given to her stalker by Corvo (which is not a good fate mind you) but the Pendleton Twins get their tongues cut off and and are forced to work in the mines they once owned.

You also can't treat background story events as if its equal to the plot and direct experience of the storyline driven by the (male) player character.
Why not? The side stories drive the main plot.

The "powerful female characters" are essentially story props to drive the protagonist's action.
Same could be said of powerful male characters in every other game. It all sounds so inrelevant and small said like that, don't you think?

Ah yes, women who hold "sexual power" through being unscrupulous temptresses who use their feminine wiles to manipulate men away from more noble pursuits, how feminist. I can't believe I'm seriously posting about this topic.
Actually no.
Vera only watched men fight over because she could. Men also seduce women in other media like movies and I never see such things said about them. Women are the ones who get shit because they have some kind of sexual power or seduce/flirt with others. So what if they seduce men and get their way like that? Why is it so bad? If it's the best way for a woman to fight, be it. I know it has it's consiquences but so does using strenght.
If we judge everything by what's feminist or not, I'm never having sex because women usually are under a men and get a penis inside them.
Sexuality is women's strenght. Why is that so bad again?

Also judging by the reaction of "gaming communities" (ugh) online to such arguments it seems like her points may not be as obvious to a lot of people as they might be to you or me.
So that means that our arguments are all invalid no matter how much we try do make you understand that it goes beyond a simple trope or empowered?

To spur developers to make better and more interesting games.
I have played a few, from the Silent Hill series, to The Longest Journey series passing through Tales from Monkey Island, Sam & Max Freelance Police and Aquaria or Deus Ex: Human Revolution and NieR. There are many out there, you just need to know where to look.

Someone like Sarkeesian is far more valuable than yet another IGN stooge giving a 9.5 to the latest CoD pile.
Nobody likes IGN or CoD, only casual gamers listen to those people and play those games. If you want a good shooter I suggest you try the Bioshock series.

Though I personally think with a game gameplay concerns should always take precedent over story or narrative ones, the latter can definitely complement or hobble the former in the right circumstances, and its not always a totally clear line between the two (especially in games like RPG's).
It depends on the type of game you're making and even on the company or the makers of such games. While Team Meat (or Edmund McMillen) has made Super Meat Boy! which is not very story heavy, he also made Time Fcuk and The Binding of Isaac which are both symbolic and story heavy. Again, it's matter of what kind of games you like and want to play but also of the audience this games are directed to. The audience of The Binding of Isaac is not the same of a Call of Duty.
 

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AyaSullivan said:
Let's Players often capture their own videos and I'm pretty sure she could have done the same. The problem is that she didn't credit it and that is like giving no credit for people's works don't you think? Someone puts their time into a really good Top 10 or a Let's Play and you come and steal it. Imagine that you make a Top 10 and I steal it from you, your footage and don't credit you. How would you feel?
I wouldn't care because its just footage of me playing a video game? It'd be different if she took the entire "Let's Play" and claimed it was her work, but taking a couple snippets out of you playing a video game for her own videos? If you care about that you're just a baby.
AyaSullivan said:
It's not misogynist because she wasn't killed because she was a women. Everyone dies. Is death misogynistic too? The story is supposed to be somewhat realistic, close to our History, so it's normal that women that hold political power die, but so do men. And far more men die (or get badly hurt) than women. While Lady Boyle (in the Low Chaos run) gets given to her stalker by Corvo (which is not a good fate mind you) but the Pendleton Twins get their tongues cut off and and are forced to work in the mines they once owned.
You didn't follow the logic there at all, as usual. If a woman being murdered is not misogynist in and of itself, a woman being powerful is also not feminist in and of itself. Period.
AyaSullivan said:
Women are the ones who get shit because they have some kind of sexual power or seduce/flirt with others. So what if they seduce men and get their way like that? Why is it so bad?
Because its bad to portray women as weak and helpless except for in their use of their sexuality to manipulate? Your ignorance is proof that Sarkeesian, despite whatever flaws she may have, is a valuable voice among those who commentate on your hobby.
AyaSullivan said:
Same could be said of powerful male characters in every other game.
No one's claiming those characters are feminist the way you are about the female characters who serve the same purpose.
AyaSullivan said:
So that means that our arguments are all invalid no matter how much we try do make you understand that it goes beyond a simple trope or empowered?
I don't know what you mean by "our," lots of people who play games agree with her. I'm talking more about the fact that the woman had to disable Youtube comments on her videos because they tended to be filled with "get raped feminazi cunt" type comments.
AyaSullivan said:
Nobody likes IGN or CoD, only casual gamers listen to those people and play those games. If you want a good shooter I suggest you try the Bioshock series.
I don't like IGN or COD but obviously many people do. Bioshock games are not very good, shallow System Shock retreads with hamfisted narratives and atmosphere. Infinite's gameplay is so shallow it can't even be called a SS retread. It's pretty funny you dismiss "casual gamers" and then act like Bioshock is the holy grail.
 

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As as matter of fact, non-casual gaming is pretty much a male only environment. The fact that some of the characters are women doesn't really detract from this. Alright, Kerrigan in Starcraft was female. Do you think battle.net leaderboard was/is a feminist environment?

The problem with this whole thing is that the games market is basically tailored for men because, er, it's been men that have been using it since it was created. Sure, some women have been around and are coming in greater numbers, but the development path still has a lot of inertia - it's still more than profitable to produce mindless shooting games; it's only going to get more profitable to make them if women start playing them.

The real thing she didn't manage to focus on, probably because she doesn't understand women and video games very much (though frankly, this is not a political, social or ethical issue, at all), is the lack of any obvious genre for women. Yes, you can play RPGs, you can play shooters, strategy or adventure games, but historically speaking these are all very male oriented genres. And I can't think of a game genre that could be "feminist" without also being really really condescending (I don't think 'Housewife Simulator' would go down very well.)

What she means, @AyaSullivan, isn't that individual games have or don't have female protagonists, because this doesn't matter—Victorian England had a Queen, after all. The point is that they are female protagonists, and female players who have been suborned into the male world and adopted male identities. That's just how it has happened.
 

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The real thing she didn't manage to focus on, probably because she doesn't understand women and video games very much (though frankly, this is not a political, social or ethical issue, at all), is the lack of any obvious genre for women. Yes, you can play RPGs, you can play shooters, strategy or adventure games, but historically speaking these are all very male oriented genres. And I can't think of a game genre that could be "feminist" without also being really really condescending (I don't think 'Housewife Simulator' would go down very well.)
Well there's nothing really inherently "male" about a lot of those things outside of the cultural baggage they tend to come with, particularly stuff like RPG's or strategy games. Like RPG's are male oriented because the narratives tend to focus around male protagonists and the lines of action tend to be things that are thought of as "male-oriented," like fighting and shooting and killing people. But there's nothing inherent to the structure of the gameplay in these genres that makes them "male."

I do agree with you its not a big social issue though, to me its basically playing TV Tropes with feminist jargon. Video games, for the most part, are going to reflect the values of the society that produce them, same with film, television, literature, and so on. The solution isn't crudely shoehorning tokenism into video games which is what a lot of people seem to want when they bring up these sorts of issues. At the same time though its not like most of the things someone like her points out are wrong and I get annoyed when people want to deny really obvious truths about their pet hobby.
 

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The No More Hero
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Discussion Starter #15
As as matter of fact, non-casual gaming is pretty much a male only environment. The fact that some of the characters are women doesn't really detract from this. Alright, Kerrigan in Starcraft was female. Do you think battle.net leaderboard was/is a feminist environment?
That's not my experience. More and more females are non-casual. I'm a non-casual and most of my female friends are that as well. They're growing fast and enjoying games males enjoy as well, like Metal Gear Solid or Dead Space. We might not an army, but we are growing.
I never said it is.

The problem with this whole thing is that the games market is basically tailored for men because, er, it's been men that have been using it since it was created.
Because men have been the main market for many years, but I can see changes, especially in the indie scene. Games are changing because the fans want it to go in a new direction, both male and female.

it's still more than profitable to produce mindless shooting games
I'll have to disagree. EA is losing money with their mindless shooting games, while Nintendo wins more money with 3DS, which is pretty kid, female and male friendly. Not only causals play Nintendo either, or they wouldn't have No More Heroes, Madworld, Bayonetta 2, Metal Gear Solid 3 or Fatal Frame IV on their consoles.
Gamers are tired of mindless shooting games and want the market to move on. Less shooting, more story.

Yes, you can play RPGs, you can play shooters, strategy or adventure games, but historically speaking these are all very male oriented genres. And I can't think of a game genre that could be "feminist" without also being really really condescending (I don't think 'Housewife Simulator' would go down very well.)
RPGs, especially JRPGs, are very female oriented. Just to give you an example, NieR has two different versions, the American and European version and the Japanese version where they changed completely the main character's visual and part of this story.

Western Version


The Japanese version

You know why this was changed? Because it wouldn't sell in the Japan. Because females in Japan wouldn't buy a game where the male main character looks like a male 40 something male with tons of scars and a not very pretty, so they made him much younger, feminine and easy to look at. Because of females.

There are no feminists types of games or games because, usually, good games sell, not games with good ideals. Games with a good story and/or gameplay, are the games which sell sooner or later in time.

The point is that they are female protagonists, and female players who have been suborned into the male world and adopted male identities.
Have they? Give me some examples.
 

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The No More Hero
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Discussion Starter #16
I wouldn't care because its just footage of me playing a video game? It'd be different if she took the entire "Let's Play" and claimed it was her work, but taking a couple snippets out of you playing a video game for her own videos? If you care about that you're just a baby.
A baby? That's a taste different of insulting just because I care about the work others have when they did those Let's Plays and Top whatever number.

You didn't follow the logic there at all, as usual. If a woman being murdered is not misogynist in and of itself, a woman being powerful is also not feminist in and of itself. Period.
Why?

Because its bad to portray women as weak and helpless except for in their use of their sexuality to manipulate?
When a woman can seduce and manipulate a men into doing what she wants isn't exactly helpless. Helpless is when you can't do anything to help yourself and seducing a men and manipulating is finding a way to help yourself to get out of a dangerous situation. That's not being helpless.

I don't know what you mean by "our," lots of people who play games agree with her.
I never saw many of those, you know? And by ours I mean the gamers and people who disagree with her.

I'm talking more about the fact that the woman had to disable Youtube comments on her videos because they tended to be filled with "get raped feminazi cunt" type comments.
She didn't learn that she shouldn't feed the trolls, and she keeps doing it over and over again. She is the perfect target for trolls who crawl out of /b/. If she didn't look so arrogant, doesn't know what is she talking about most of times and tries to make the world bend over her values is the reason why she's not taken seriously by many people and is trolled.
It's simple as DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS.

I don't like IGN or COD but obviously many people do.
Many people also don't like. Believe me, a lot of gamers know IGN make their reviews based on payment they get from companies, which is not uncommon for big sites do not that, which make bad games like CoD look like something really big when it, in fact, it's not really that big any more.

Bioshock games are not very good, shallow System Shock retreads with hamfisted narratives and atmosphere. Infinite's gameplay is so shallow it can't even be called a SS retread.
I will have to agree with and say that System Shock is the superior game and I'm not a very big fan of Bioshock 2, but I liked Infinite even though it's gameplay is very simple. I usually don't care for very complex gameplay as long as I enjoy the story.

It's pretty funny you dismiss "casual gamers" and then act like Bioshock is the holy grail.
Bioshock is not the holy grail of gaming. If I want a holy grail of gaming I'll go for Silent Hill 2 or Shadow of Colossus.
 

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Gamers are tired of mindless shooting games and want the market to move on. Less shooting, more story.
This is idiotic. Games are things that you play. If you want a story read a book or watch a movie. A game can have a good story but if that's your main draw then you have a crappy game. This is the problem with a game like Bioshock Infinite--its pretty clear that the game's story was a wannabe auteur jerk off fest and the actual gameplay a complete afterthought. The primary problem with the industry isn't lack of female "gamers" or that the stories in games aren't good enough, its that the games are fucking lame and boring and not fun to play because studios only back the safest, most generic crap like Bioshock Infinite and Call of Duty which gets funneled to the professional "reviewers" who give everything with a slick enough pedigree 8's and 9's.

There are no feminists types of games or games because, usually, good games sell, not games with good ideals.
And then later you say this? :facepalm:
 

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The No More Hero
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Discussion Starter #18
This is idiotic. Games are things that you play. If you want a story read a book or watch a movie.
What about ICO, Silent Hill, The Longest Journey, Sam & Max, Braid, Bastion or Aquaria? I played Silent Hill for the story, the gameplay is horrible, but story is worthy of a book or movie.
But I guess those games don't exist in your world.
 

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A baby? That's a taste different of insulting just because I care about the work others have when they did those Let's Plays and Top whatever number.
Yes, a baby. If you consider footage of yourself playing a video game "your work" then get a life. I say that with utter sincerity, and also as a person who wastes entirely too much time playing video games. Unless you're a pro Starcraft player or something its not "your work," give me a break.


Double standard - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

When a woman can seduce and manipulate a men into doing what she wants isn't exactly helpless. Helpless is when you can't do anything to help yourself and seducing a men and manipulating is finding a way to help yourself to get out of a dangerous situation. That's not being helpless.
Yes, they are helpless except through their use of sex as a tool of manipulation, which is what I said. If you think its good for women to have women depicted in media as generally powerless except for their ability to seduce then I don't really know what to say to that.


I never saw many of those, you know? And by ours I mean the gamers and people who disagree with her.
Well, there are? How do you think she's had as much success as a commentator as she has if there's not a receptive audience to what she says?
She didn't learn that she shouldn't feed the trolls, and she keeps doing it over and over again. She is the perfect target for trolls who crawl out of /b/. If she didn't look so arrogant, doesn't know what is she talking about most of times and tries to make the world bend over her values is the reason why she's not taken seriously by many people and is trolled.
It's simple as DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS.
So if a woman shares an opinion about something she's just inviting people to tell her she deserves to get raped, I'll keep that in mind. I wonder what you would think she might deserve for wearing a sexy outfit to the club?

Bioshock is not the holy grail of gaming. If I want a holy grail of gaming I'll go for Silent Hill 2 or Shadow of Colossus.
Those name drops are pretty funny too. Really the distinction between "casuals" and "true gamers" is seriously stupid.
 

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What about ICO, Silent Hill, The Longest Journey, Sam & Max, Braid, Bastion or Aquaria? I played Silent Hill for the story, the gameplay is horrible, but story is worthy of a book or movie.
But I guess those games don't exist in your world.
ICO and Silent Hill (1-3, the ones I've played) both have very good gameplay and the narratives complement the gameplay, rather than the gameplay being a tacked on mess to tell some crappy generic fantasy story. I haven't played the other games.
 
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