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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
INTJs sometimes present themselves as extroverts, when in fact they are merely asserting themselves. INTJs share many traits with ENTJs and in particular, the trait of Te: Extroverted Thinking, which is defined as:

Te organizes and schedules ideas and the environment to ensure the efficient, productive pursuit of objectives. Te seeks logical explanations for actions, events, and conclusions, looking for faulty reasoning and lapses in sequence

INTJs have a dominant (most developed) trait of Introverted Intuition (Ni) and an Auxiliary trait of Extroverted Thinking (Te). In ENTJs this “Te” is actually their dominant trait and the Ni is the auxiliary.

There are many contexts in which INTJs may seem extroverted:

- In a crisis – An INTJs demeanor and slowness to react emotionally in a crisis makes them seem extroverted. INTJs may tend to be assertive under pressure.

- On the job – INTJs can be assertive in their professions, when necessary. They can be effective public speakers in their areas of expertise and take on positions of leadership in the absence of an effective alternative.

- In the presence of trusted friends – if you are a friend or confidant to an INTJ, you will see another more assertive side to them.

- When they are being humorous.

- When speaking/arguing in favor of their convictions/beliefs.

This assertiveness is often mistaken for Extroversion, to the degree that even INTJs themselves may wonder if they are in fact extroverted at times. I have had these thoughts, about myself and other INTJs, which compelled me to learn more about the functions of Introversion and Extroversion. I realized that the traits are not interchangeable, in much the same way that one does not become a Sensing type just by using a sensing function at times.

Extroversion is not merely occasional or even frequent assertiveness or an element of social interaction. It is a function of how the mind incorporates data and stimuli. In the MBTI portion of the forum is an excellent post detailing the conceptual nuances of the the MBTI functions. It describes the difference between all of the functions and data/environmental stimuli are processed by the mind.

http://personalitycafe.com/myers-briggs-forum/9813-mbti-functions-explained.html

Extroversion and Introversion are most likely not able to be interchanged/developed as they are psychologically different approaches to interacting with the environment and where energy is focused. For an extrovert energy is focused externally. For us introverts there are entire universes of energy within.
 

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We can act pretty well. It's not as if I don't have an extroverted dimension to me, but using it requires a lot of energy. Also, of course it is an lower or higher "extroversion threshold" depending on the person.
 

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Yes! On here, for one; and on other sites.
When I am with my family, I am often 'in the center of attention' as I interact with, and teach, the youngsters (i.e. What their name would be if they were Russian, Icelandic, Dutch, etc; or their relations each other, or details about their great-great-great-great-great-great-grandfather;etc.) or when I debate with the rest of the family.
 

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INTJs can seem extroverted when engaging in something we find consequential; but are still ultimately intraverted.
Both spellings for "extraverted" are correct actually. The other word only has one spelling. I really hate English sometimes.

That's exactly it though. We're very adaptable people. We look at a situation, determine what it requires, and adjust accordingly.
 

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Both spellings for "extraverted" are correct actually. The other word only has one spelling. I really hate English sometimes.

That's exactly it though. We're very adaptable people. We look at a situation, determine what it requires, and adjust accordingly.
Ah, my point was a matter of distinction, not a spelling complaint. The use of introvert and intravert should have a subtle distinction as introvert now has an alternate meaning from which Jung intended. Jung intended introvert to be one who gains energy from their inner world; in effect this is now termed Intravert.

Now introvert is a label for disengaging from a discussion; potentially antisocially.

The crux was that an INTJ is always intravert, regardless of whether they appear introvert or extrovert.
 

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I mistake an INTJ as an extrovert because they always open up to me and talk to me quite a bit. I don't realize that it is rare for them and that they aren't doing that with the rest of the world. I have had to realize that I have a type a personality that makes people want to open up whether they are Introverted or Extroverted.

But what introverts present to me are not how they are with everyone else. So INTJs seem like chatty fun budies with a sense of humor. Wonderful at parties too! We both kind of hang around the outside and judge everyone. What is so introverted about that?
 
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What's your basis?
Ah, my point was a matter of distinction, not a spelling complaint. The use of introvert and intravert should have a subtle distinction as introvert now has an alternate meaning from which Jung intended. Jung intended introvert to be one who gains energy from their inner world; in effect this is now termed Intravert.

Now introvert is a label for disengaging from a discussion; potentially antisocially.

The crux was that an INTJ is always intravert, regardless of whether they appear introvert or extrovert.
10 characters.
 

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INTJs sometimes present themselves as extroverts, when in fact they are merely asserting themselves. INTJs share many traits with ENTJs and in particular, the trait of Te: Extroverted Thinking, which is defined as:

Te organizes and schedules ideas and the environment to ensure the efficient, productive pursuit of objectives. Te seeks logical explanations for actions, events, and conclusions, looking for faulty reasoning and lapses in sequence

INTJs have a dominant (most developed) trait of Introverted Intuition (Ni) and an Auxiliary trait of Extroverted Thinking (Te). In ENTJs this “Te” is actually their dominant trait and the Ni is the auxiliary.

There are many contexts in which INTJs may seem extroverted:

- In a crisis – An INTJs demeanor and slowness to react emotionally in a crisis makes them seem extroverted. INTJs may tend to be assertive under pressure.
Yes. Emotions won't help me to survive during a crisis- adrenaline kicks in so that I can recover from shock quickly or at least delay its full impact until I know that I am physically safe and my loved ones are, too. I gather all of the data, make a decision and act on it fast. Once the stress of the moment is over, once I feel like I have things mentally in order and defused of chaos, I can take pause to address the emotional atmosphere of past, future and present moment.

This has gotten me into trouble with my S.O. because in emergencies I tend to act of my own accord, knowing my intentions and reasons but not explaining them to him (some times there is not enough time to). I'll suspend my awareness of the needs of anyone who is already safe in order to consider the needs of anyone who could potentially come to harm. My S.O. doesn't ever want me to risk endangering myself, even times when I confidently feel like I would not be putting myself in jeopardy- as I've already objectively weighed the risk to my life and limb. Even when I've been bleeding, or crashed on my bike, I'll assess the damage while processing pain and foreseeing how that very unexpected incident could potentially throw off the rest of my schedule or day now that it's occurred.

- On the job – INTJs can be assertive in their professions, when necessary. They can be effective public speakers in their areas of expertise and take on positions of leadership in the absence of an effective alternative.

I have to practice what I'm going to say -in my mind and in speech when able to practice in private- over and over to outline it cohesively, before hand, so it flows from one point to the next almost seamlessly. I try to master my tone to seem more personable and comfortable. I anticipate potential questions so that I won't be caught off-guard.

- In the presence of trusted friends – if you are a friend or confidant to an INTJ, you will see another more assertive side to them.

- When they are being humorous.

- When speaking/arguing in favor of their convictions/beliefs.
When people see me interacting in a lively manner with someone I trust, then grow quiet at their approach/presence, they've gotten the impression that I'm a snob... I'm not good at first meetings, as I prefer people to "grow on me" to see if they're worth the investment of my curiosity. I switch to observation mode and hope that the person I'm with is good at gathering data from direct interaction so that I can observe the dynamics between both of them.

When I see something on T.V. that irritates me, I often speak it aloud. This some times bothers the people around me because it can be negative and highly critical in context, like, "That's utter bullshit, I can't believe some people actually listen to these idiots... They're missing the whole picture!"

This assertiveness is often mistaken for Extroversion, to the degree that even INTJs themselves may wonder if they are in fact extroverted at times. I have had these thoughts, about myself and other INTJs, which compelled me to learn more about the functions of Introversion and Extroversion. I realized that the traits are not interchangeable, in much the same way that one does not become a Sensing type just by using a sensing function at times.

Extroversion is not merely occasional or even frequent assertiveness or an element of social interaction. It is a function of how the mind incorporates data and stimuli. In the MBTI portion of the forum is an excellent post detailing the conceptual nuances of the the MBTI functions. It describes the difference between all of the functions and data/environmental stimuli are processed by the mind.

http://personalitycafe.com/myers-briggs-forum/9813-mbti-functions-explained.html

Extroversion and Introversion are most likely not able to be interchanged/developed as they are psychologically different approaches to interacting with the environment and where energy is focused. For an extrovert energy is focused externally. For us introverts there are entire universes of energy within.
Nah, I've never felt extroverted. I expend energy on my loved ones willingly, because it's fun and entertaining, always conscious that it will tire me out and that, nonetheless, it will be rewarding for the memories generated by it. I understand that I deem certain people worthy of my efforts because if I were like that all the time or just the majority I wouldn't be very functional in any kind of sense of the optimal amount of contribution I could provide- I can't meet 100% of my needs just from human interaction, alone- I would eventually become emotionally erratic and most certainly resentful. Being around other people to excessive amounts can cause me physical stress. It's like, the more you use a hard drive the faster the working parts are going to wear out, break down- and then the whole drive becomes useless beyond being a paper weight; I need to defragment, re-allocate, clear my cache then wind down without any outside stimulation or I'll over heat... =Þ

The distinction IN[T]visibleJim has offered between intraversion and introversion seems applicable, but,

Extraversion and introversion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Latin to English definition of extra

Latin to English definition of intro


Anti-social is something in a whole 'notha ball park,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-social_behaviour said:
In common parlance antisocial is often used to describe those perceived to be excessively introverted, an incorrect though increasingly common usage.
I have a high distaste for the misuse of the term "anti-social" as I do also for misuse of the term "shy" when extraverts describe others without knowing if the person is actually shy or simply an "introvert" type of person; There is a difference between all 3 of these terms.
 

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I have a high distaste for the misuse of the term "anti-social" as I do also for misuse of the term "shy" when extraverts describe others without knowing if the person is actually shy or simply an introverted type of person; There is a difference.
Yes, my point is that the language is not suitably constructed. When I go on one of my whiteboard rants about and idea or topic that interests me; yes I look assertive and drag everyone else kicking or screaming up to speed as well as any extrovert.

Many an extravert has said to me 'You are very engaging and extraverted' to which I reply 'this tells me that you do not understand me, I spend 60 to 80% of my time hiding in my head; every interaction demotivates and exhausts me regardless of how I may appear during that time'.
 

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Indeed, I see that point of how our behavior is misunderstood.

Reminds me of ENTPs saying that often -when they are joking- people mistakenly think the ENTPs are being serious and also, -when the ENTPs actually are being serious- people mistakenly think that the ENTPs are joking. Misinterpretation sure can be a drag.

Hehehehe... I now feel highly rewarded for theories I've had about myself versus my ENFP S.O. because of this. I've edited the formatting of the final paragraph for an aesthetic purpose.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraversion_and_introversion said:

Biological factors


The relative importance of nature versus environment in determining the level of extraversion is controversial and the focus of many studies. Twin studies find a genetic component of 39% to 58%. In terms of the environmental component, the shared family environment appears to be far less important than individual environmental factors that are not shared between siblings.[13]


Eysenck proposed that extraversion was caused by variability in cortical arousal. He hypothesized that introverts are characterized by higher levels of activity than extraverts and so are chronically more cortically aroused than extraverts. The fact that extraverts require more external stimulation than introverts has been interpreted as evidence for this hypothesis. Other evidence of the "stimulation" hypothesis is that introverts salivate more than extraverts in response to a drop of lemon juice.[14]


Extraversion has been linked to higher sensitivity of the mesolimbic dopamine system to potentially rewarding stimuli.[15] This in part explains the high levels of positive affect found in extraverts, since they will more intensely feel the excitement of a potential reward. One consequence of this is that extraverts can more easily learn the contingencies for positive reinforcement, since the reward itself is experienced as greater.


One study found that

introverts have more blood flow in the frontal lobes of their brain and the anterior or frontal thalamus, which are areas dealing with internal processing, such as planning and problem solving.

Extraverts have more blood flow in the anterior cingulate gyrus, temporal lobes, and posterior thalamus, which are involved in sensory and emotional experience.[16]

This study and other research indicates that introversion-extraversion is related to individual differences in brain function.
 
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Interesting thread.

With my close friends I'm very open and talk a lot and my energy doesn't get drained at all. I've also noticed that I'm very comfortable socializing in one-on-one situations even if the partner is fairly unknown.
However with (most) completely unknown people, especially large groups of them, I tend to shut down and talking seems frustrating. I absolutely hate talking with large groups of people. I don't know why because it doesn't make any sense but that's just how I am.
Anybody else similiar to this? I think this might be pretty common amongst INTJs, but I'm not sure.

Regarding the extraverted qualities in I's that OP described, I fit them perfectly. I can see these in my friends too.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Interesting thread.

With my close friends I'm very open and talk a lot and my energy doesn't get drained at all. I've also noticed that I'm very comfortable socializing in one-on-one situations even if the partner is fairly unknown.
However with (most) completely unknown people, especially large groups of them, I tend to shut down and talking seems frustrating. I absolutely hate talking with large groups of people. I don't know why because it doesn't make any sense but that's just how I am.
Anybody else similiar to this? I think this might be pretty common amongst INTJs, but I'm not sure.

Regarding the extraverted qualities in I's that OP described, I fit them perfectly. I can see these in my friends too.
Very common. Actually the thread that I referenced up there explains it beautifully. The functions of an INTJ are Introverted Intuition, Extroverted Thinking, Introverted Feeling and Extroverted Sensing...in that order. So generally, we can't deal with a ton of stimuli at once, because we are internalizing and applying it to internal reference...which is a thoroughly deep and intense process. You can't do that in a group of more than 6 people. Your brain just does't process information that way. One on one, or in a small group, you can handle all of the information and process it in a comfortable manner.

The thread [that was orginally posted by Sunless] describes the extraverted sensing as handling outside stimuli as static objects, things are just things. Whereas the intuitives see information or outside objects as having an element of motion, all things are related to something else, and must be matched and applied to the internal index of reference.

You can't do that at a party where 15 people are carrying 15 different conversations. :happy:
 
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Indeed, I see that point of how our behavior is misunderstood.

Reminds me of ENTPs saying that often -when they are joking- people mistakenly think the ENTPs are being serious and also, -when the ENTPs actually are being serious- people mistakenly think that the ENTPs are joking. Misinterpretation sure can be a drag.

Hehehehe... I now feel highly rewarded for theories I've had about myself versus my ENFP S.O. because of this. I've edited the formatting of the final paragraph for an aesthetic purpose.

I never get ENTP humor. LOL ENTJs however, they are heelarious.

That was a BEAUTIFUL post of information SS, I love it. Thank you.
 

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10 characters.
Okay. By making the distinction that INTJ are intravert rather then just introverted, that means you are saying INTJs never appear introverted simply because they're antisocial. You're saying they appear introverted because they're intraverted.

My asking for basis means, why do you think INTJs are always intraverted instead of just introverted?

Could a person be considered an extravert if they have social anxiety, or are antisocial, and prefer to live in a cabin out in the woods with just 1 other person? It seems like a pretty worthless definition even if it does work.

I know an INTJ female that has really high social anxiety and wants to live in a cabin in the woods. I don't think she could appear extroverted even if she wanted to.

Now introvert is a label for disengaging from a discussion; potentially antisocially.

The crux was that an INTJ is always intravert, regardless of whether they appear introvert or extrovert.
 

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Okay. By making the distinction that INTJ are intravert rather then just introverted, that means you are saying INTJs never appear introverted simply because they're antisocial. You're saying they appear introverted because they're intraverted.

My asking for basis means, why do you think INTJs are always intraverted instead of just introverted?

Could a person be considered an extravert if they have social anxiety, or are antisocial, and prefer to live in a cabin out in the woods with just 1 other person? It seems like a pretty worthless definition even if it does work.

I know an INTJ female that has really high social anxiety and wants to live in a cabin in the woods. I don't think she could appear extroverted even if she wanted to.
No I am saying that INTJs are always intraverted; they are always ruled by being exhausted by interaction.

But if an INTJ likes a topic and gets excited; of course we may (for a moment) appear extroverted (outwardly displaying of emotion and seeking interaction). This doesn't stop us getting mentally exhausted by the interaction.

Whereas an INTJ will appear introverted for either of two reasons; because the situation is uninteresting and therefore we seek information in from our internal world. Ni - not neccesarily intraversion taking over, simply it is more interesting to reflect than to deal with what we might perceive as nonsense; or we have been taxed to the limit with stimulus - Ni demands processing - Intraversion as a cognitive trait takes over.

Intravertion is an internal cognitive trait and we should be careful not to link it succinctly to a method of external action; they have their own adjectives. That would be similar to claiming that a computer talks 3D because it makes 3D shapes on its monitor. No a computer talks 0's and 1's which cleverly form an image of a 3D shape.

Most likely your hermit friend simply finds her mind much more interesting than interaction with others; probably as past experience has taught her that interaction with others is fruitless.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Yes! On here, for one; and on other sites.
When I am with my family, I am often 'in the center of attention' as I interact with, and teach, the youngsters (i.e. What their name would be if they were Russian, Icelandic, Dutch, etc; or their relations each other, or details about their great-great-great-great-great-great-grandfather;etc.) or when I debate with the rest of the family.
Icelandic? That's an interesting and rare language to have studied.

Yes, you fool everyone into thinking you are extroverted whenever you flash your "Te"...mad extroverted thinking skills. It's also a skill that ENFPs have [although not dominant] making they seem like kindred folk to us.
 

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INTJs seem like extroverts cause they can't stop talking or whining when you initiate a conversation with them...

That's my personal experience
 
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