[dagnytaggart]

That is, in the descriptions and according to what some of you said was said about you.

I know a handful of INTPs, and you're damn perfect. Very fun and mentally stimulating people, and understanding of the concept of personal space. No drama, lots of quirk/quark verbal tennis, and how is it possible to be "too logical"? I consider "logic" to be something one can't have too much of.

The grammar nazism I just overlook...(or ahem...ignore LOL)

Can you guys provide a few examples of situations where you received these comments? Because even I've gotten these comments (mostly from ESFJs), though you guys get most of the flak for it. Maybe I'm not seeing the abnormality that everyone else does.

 

[honestfi]

It is difficult to put myself in an "F"'shoes, although I hear what they're saying when they state "You have to consider so-and-so's feelings/consider this person's personal circumstances..." - when you're trying to achieve a common goal, practicality takes centre stage - not feelings. They often come up with a sensible "Well I could do this, if I re-arranged that..." etc, and usually it's a good option - but then their heart overrules their head and they go and do what the heck they please anyway.

Yeah - I guess this makes me sound cold and heartless. When I first read the profiles of INTP a couple of years back I realised just how much of a pain in the heiny I can be.

I do understand. Really. But I still think the common aim is more important. Else nothing would get done.

Oh. And my grammar is terrible.

 

[Dionysus]

a person who is too logical is disengaged/detached from the world and not even really participating. This is the big warning I think you're talking about. because of the introverted tendency, I could honestly be happy sitting in a group of people and deciding the use and function of each of them when push comes to shove. This can make people uncomfortable...

so then logic kicks in again and tells you that you need to develop a way of getting into rapport with people. it's not the worst thing, man, but when I meet a new group of people and we finally get over the stiff phase at the beginning, people will joke with me about how intense and calculating I come off as. Girls would tell me months later that they were flirting but I was aloof and blew their ego so now I am eliminated from the field...I honestly think INTP males might have some of the worst game (INITIALLY) out of many types, stereotypically speaking

 

[dagnytaggart]

Yeah, most of the INTPs I know are guys...and none of them do well with women at all.

I too don't understand why feelings are used to make decisions. To me, they're obstructions. Everyone "feels", but to me the correct thing to do is to eliminate it from the picture. NOT make it the focus when it comes to planning something, like so many people I know do.

 

[Dionysus]

this is like trying to convince an INTP/INTJ to start feeling more. I think an esfj needs the emotions to make decisions because they are much better developed and more self-serving. i assume esfj on pure rational logical decision making is like me trying to go about life based on how i'm feeling and not how I think

 

[trayNTP]

That is, in the descriptions and according to what some of you said was said about you.

I know a handful of INTPs, and you're damn perfect. Very fun and mentally stimulating people, and understanding of the concept of personal space. No drama, lots of quirk/quark verbal tennis, and how is it possible to be "too logical"? I consider "logic" to be something one can't have too much of.

The grammar nazism I just overlook...(or ahem...ignore LOL)

Can you guys provide a few examples of situations where you received these comments? Because even I've gotten these comments (mostly from ESFJs), though you guys get most of the flak for it. Maybe I'm not seeing the abnormality that everyone else does.

Church...funerals...whenever other people are goggling over a baby...when they try to convince me to attend a party.

 

[trayNTP]

Yeah, most of the INTPs I know are guys...and none of them do well with women at all.

Never had that problem when I've tried.

But maybe that's because I'm decent-looking and can be a fun...one on one. Let one more person walk up and try to join the conversation, and it's too many.

 

[Dupree]

I laugh when people call me cold and rigid. Would you rather me not tell the truth or what?

 

[dagnytaggart]

Church...funerals...whenever other people are goggling over a baby...when they try to convince me to attend a party.

The first three baffle me. I'm not even sure that most people take those things seriously - it's more of a programmed/automated response - programmed so early, it seems natural to most people.

BUT parties I can understand. Eat, drink, listen to music, sometimes dance, joke around, drink, talk to a bunch of friends, drink, meet people who you end up philosophizing for hours with....ahh what a life. Though perhaps a taxing one for Introverts. :wink:

 

[dagnytaggart]

this is like trying to convince an INTP/INTJ to start feeling more. I think an esfj needs the emotions to make decisions because they are much better developed and more self-serving. i assume esfj on pure rational logical decision making is like me trying to go about life based on how i'm feeling and not how I think

That's true. Though it's a fact I learned more by rote than comprehension.

I had ESFJ and ISFP parents. So I learned that in order to get my way, I had to use emotion not only as a an arguing point, but the argument ITSELF had to be made WITH emotion. I never understood how the hell making my case that way would persuade them (and not facts and objective reasoning), but it did, so I did it anyway.

I remember I had to watch a 10 year old for a week while her parents were on vacation...she tried using emotional appeals to get her way. It NEVER worked, and she told her parents I was "mean".

Well at least that's one less brat I'll have to deal with. :laughing:

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Many people prefer to be deluded and sometimes become upset when they hear a difficult truth.

 

[trayNTP]

The first three baffle me. I'm not even sure that most people take those things seriously - it's more of a programmed/automated response - programmed so early, it seems natural to most people.

BUT parties I can understand. Eat, drink, listen to music, sometimes dance, joke around, drink, talk to a bunch of friends, drink, meet people who you end up philosophizing for hours with....ahh what a life. Though perhaps a taxing one for Introverts. :wink:

It's because my expression doesn't change regardless.

I went to a lively church. People crying, dancing, cheering...me, nothing. Makes them think you don't care.

People die. Other people shocked, begin crying. Me standing there looking at them like they're speaking another language, then walking off thinking about something else.

Baby walks up to me or sees me in a store and says, "HEY" with the baby wave. Everyone else starts oohing and aahing. Me, uncomfortable, don't respond, smirk, walk off.

In all cases, people see you as "cold". Maybe not too logical, until they ask me to explain why I do what I do, then they say that...or just look baffled.

 

[Vaka]

I think this is an interesting discussion...

this is like trying to convince an INTP/INTJ to start feeling more. I think an esfj needs the emotions to make decisions because they are much better developed and more self-serving. i assume esfj on pure rational logical decision making is like me trying to go about life based on how i'm feeling and not how I think

I agree with this.
Feelers and thinkers have different ways of viewing, dealing with, and understanding things. And they feel more comfortable with these. In that way, not only is feeling not inherently superior to thinking and vice versa, but trying to get someone to respond to things or view things in the opposite way may make them uneasy and actually keep them from making a truly good decision. I suppose it's harder for dominant thinkers and dominant feelers.

I remember I had to watch a 10 year old for a week while her parents were on vacation...she tried using emotional appeals to get her way. It NEVER worked, and she told her parents I was "mean".

Yeah...That wouldn't really work on me either. And it's not because I have the complete inability to empathize, but it's because I'm always suspicious of emotional manipulation which may point to an insecurity with dealing with certain forms of communication. And I've noticed that many T types, or atleast NT types, are wary of emotional manipulation.
I'm just wondering if feeler types tend to view certain T-ish things as manipulation in some way. Or I atleast wonder if it can be equated in some way. Perhaps it's the same as when T types(especially dominant T types) are called 'cold' or something. Their words are viewed as devoid of what some feelers may be able to understand fully.

I just thought this was an interesting discussion topic, even though I'm not an INTP and have never really known one :mellow:

 

[Arusnem]

Maybe you can't be too logical but you can use logic too much while discarding any other way.


I can understand how one can be considered too logical :

Human : "Hey, do you want to go to watch a tree growing with me or do you prefer that we open many packs of tissues while shaking our heads."

Cold and too logical INTP : "this question is impossible to answer using logic, I'm now going to implode or ignore you."


When you are confronted with a situation with a lot of variables and have to decide fast logic often is too slow or unable to handle so many things properly.
You don't have to use "jungian emotion", intuition will often do fine for an INTP.
You can then use logic to evaluate your intuition, but using only/too much logic can be like watching an image pixel by pixel; just take a step back and look at the big picture.
I am not very advanced in MBTI understanding but I would think that relying too much on introverted fonctions (Ti and Si) could easily provoke such critic.
I could actually see me having a hard time not punching in the face an INTP that has a very poor Ne usage; someone totally stuck inside watching a mirror with a microscope and claiming that it is reality.
Though I think it must not be something so frequent or only concerning some particularly sensitive subjects.

If I recall correctly, it is in most descriptions written like "The charming and handsome INTP can come as cold to some other types."
What it often takes to overcome this is to find a common ground, which with a very different type require to step out of one's usual ways of thinking.
That is uncomfortable and most people won't/don't know how to.
An INTP typically could be interessed in understanding how to do that; theoretically.



I have often being accused of being too cold and/or logical with people who wanted to understand what I "believe" by offering me their "beliefs" and got annoyed that I did nothing but instill doubt, explaining them why I can't subscribe to their ideas, nor the opposite views instead of making firm statements

It seems they were disoriented because they couldn't get a clear image/understanding of me, which I recognize can be unpleasant and uncomfortable when trying to get close to someone.

They needed clear and simple data to categorize an individual, and Ti can be a bit baffling when you have such expectations.

 

[teddy564339]

I know a handful of INTPs, and you're damn perfect. Very fun and mentally stimulating people, and understanding of the concept of personal space. No drama, lots of quirk/quark verbal tennis, and how is it possible to be "too logical"? I consider "logic" to be something one can't have too much of.

I think most of this is based on particular situations. Sometimes NT's strike me as too serious, because it seems like every little thing they analyze. If I tell someone a funny story, sometimes it ruins the enjoyment if someone takes it too seriously and tries to explain why it happened.

I always wonder if there's a difference between how NT's experience music and movies as well. When I watch a movie, I'm usually looking to escape into that world to forget about reality...I care more about how the movie makes me feel. If someone afterward tries to point out the problems with details in the plot, it kind of ruins the experience for me.


I guess sometimes I just feel overwhelmed by too much thinking and logic. I've been worn out by over-thinking a situation or by thinking about issues that don't affect me, and it ends up making me miserable and keeps me from enjoying life. I'm not saying this can't happen to NT's, but it seems like they almost get energized by thinking about things like that. Even though I know it's completely different than the extraversion/introversion energy idea, sometimes it feels similar. And it's hard to explain this feeling to an NT without feeling stupid or inferior...but it's just the way I am.


Of course, it's not just NT's that do this, and it's not even just thinkers who do this...feelers can overwhelm me with too much logic as well at times. But it's a lot more likely to happen with an NT, I think.

I too don't understand why feelings are used to make decisions. To me, they're obstructions. Everyone "feels", but to me the correct thing to do is to eliminate it from the picture. NOT make it the focus when it comes to planning something, like so many people I know do.

this is like trying to convince an INTP/INTJ to start feeling more. I think an esfj needs the emotions to make decisions because they are much better developed and more self-serving. i assume esfj on pure rational logical decision making is like me trying to go about life based on how i'm feeling and not how I think

Feelers and thinkers have different ways of viewing, dealing with, and understanding things. And they feel more comfortable with these. In that way, not only is feeling not inherently superior to thinking and vice versa, but trying to get someone to respond to things or view things in the opposite way may make them uneasy and actually keep them from making a truly good decision. I suppose it's harder for dominant thinkers and dominant feelers.

I definitely agree with dionysus and Lara Croft on this. For me, maybe because Si is my dominant function, when I think back on decisions I've made, it's very hard to think of a decision where I chose my "head over my heart" and feel it was right. It's much easier to remember ones where I chose my "heart over my head" and feel like it was the right decision. It's quite possible that I just have a selective memory about it, but if that's the case, it's not like I'm actively trying to remember some situations and not others...it's just what naturally stands out. This certainly plays into my making of new decisions.

I'm definitely not saying that logic doesn't play into my decision making, but ignoring my feelings and the feelings of others just makes me feel horrible afterward, and that is something I'll remember. And since I remember so many of those things, it just makes my life worse.


Of course, this doesn't mean that I can't or don't use logic or that I don't value it. And certainly all feelers can develop their thinking side. But that's just like saying the same thing about a thinker developing their feeling side.

Stuff about babies

By the way, even though I'm an ISFJ, I care nothing for babies, get uncomfortable around them, and don't understand the goggling either. I don't know how much type plays into that, I think it has more to do with personal experience.

 

[dagnytaggart]

Great insight everyone.

I think most of this is based on particular situations. Sometimes NT's strike me as too serious, because it seems like every little thing they analyze. If I tell someone a funny story, sometimes it ruins the enjoyment if someone takes it too seriously and tries to explain why it happened.

I always wonder if there's a difference between how NT's experience music and movies as well. When I watch a movie, I'm usually looking to escape into that world to forget about reality...I care more about how the movie makes me feel. If someone afterward tries to point out the problems with details in the plot, it kind of ruins the experience for me.

I guess sometimes I just feel overwhelmed by too much thinking and logic. I've been worn out by over-thinking a situation or by thinking about issues that don't affect me, and it ends up making me miserable and keeps me from enjoying life. I'm not saying this can't happen to NT's, but it seems like they almost get energized by thinking about things like that. Even though I know it's completely different than the extraversion/introversion energy idea, sometimes it feels similar. And it's hard to explain this feeling to an NT without feeling stupid or inferior...but it's just the way I am.

Of course, it's not just NT's that do this, and it's not even just thinkers who do this...feelers can overwhelm me with too much logic as well at times. But it's a lot more likely to happen with an NT, I think.

I absolutely HATE when people actually analyze my jokes/humorous stories. Kills the joke!

However, I'm the WORST with movies. :crazy: I'll criticize it, state that "in real life, it'd be completely impossible to xyz", or explain the director's motives - for example, "You see how they start with the violin music once the puppy's being taken by the vet wrapped in a blanket? You're supposed to start crying." or "See how the beginning spotlights the individual work lives of two people, completely separately, back-to-back? It's a hint that they're going to meet unexpectedly and fall in love" or "Observe the lack of conflict or raised questions, and notice the happy light-hearted humor. The movie's about to end."

I definitely agree with dionysus and Lara Croft on this. For me, maybe because Si is my dominant function, when I think back on decisions I've made, it's very hard to think of a decision where I chose my "head over my heart" and feel it was right. It's much easier to remember ones where I chose my "heart over my head" and feel like it was the right decision. It's quite possible that I just have a selective memory about it, but if that's the case, it's not like I'm actively trying to remember some situations and not others...it's just what naturally stands out. This certainly plays into my making of new decisions.

I'm definitely not saying that logic doesn't play into my decision making, but ignoring my feelings and the feelings of others just makes me feel horrible afterward, and that is something I'll remember. And since I remember so many of those things, it just makes my life worse.

Of course, this doesn't mean that I can't or don't use logic or that I don't value it. And certainly all feelers can develop their thinking side. But that's just like saying the same thing about a thinker developing their feeling side.

By the way, even though I'm an ISFJ, I care nothing for babies, get uncomfortable around them, and don't understand the goggling either. I don't know how much type plays into that, I think it has more to do with personal experience.

You've explained it eloquently, and I can imagine that the situation is compounded for you because of your Si...so you'll remember all the sinful things you've ever done. :tongue:

And even though I'm bad at putting it to practice as naturally as a natural F would, I definitely value the Feeling function. With it, you can persuade people to go along with you, earn people's trust and therefore earn privileges and liberties you wouldn't have otherwise, and you get away with things MUCH more often.

 

[teddy564339]

I can imagine that the situation is compounded for you because of your Si...so you'll remember all the sinful things you've ever done. :tongue:

I know! That's one of the worst things about Si, especially being a feeler. I can remember so many times where I did something stupid, or embarrassed myself, or hurt somebody. Sometimes some little thing will remind me of something I once did years ago, and I'll start cringing for a few minutes. I have to forcefully push it out of my mind and find something else to think about.

Of course, I can remember so many great and happy memories too, so there is balance to it.

And even though I'm bad at putting it to practice as naturally as a natural F would, I definitely value the Feeling function. With it, you can persuade people to go along with you, earn people's trust and therefore earn privileges and liberties you wouldn't have otherwise, and you get away with things MUCH more often.

You're exactly right here. To me that's the best part about learning about other types, because you can use it to make occurrences in your own life better. I always try to explain to thinking types what you just said...if you can understand how a feeler works, then you can achieve your goals more easily and efficiently. I think ESTJ's and ENTJ's are really good at this (guess it's a Te thing, logically looking at all of the present information and using it to make the most sound decision). It can be hard to think like a cold-hearted ENTP sometimes to imagine the things you just mentioned, but if I make myself do that, then you're right...you can use the good nature of feelers to your advantage. :crazy:

But the same is true for feelers in the opposite direction. I recently talked to a few INTJ's in a thread I made discussing NT's and SFJ's, and I learned something important: sometimes the best thing an SFJ can do for an NT is just to stay away from them. Not everyone is going to be compatible or get along, and that doesn't have to be a bad thing. So a feeler can learn that in order to make a thinker happier (which feelers often want to do), instead of treating the thinker the way the feeler would want to be treated, the feeler can learn to limit some of their sentimentality and stick to discussing issues and situations the thinkers prefer in the manner that thinkers prefer.


Yes, this is over-simplifying it to make thinkers (NT's in particular) sound like they're evil manipulative power lords and feelers (particularly SF's, and even SFJ's) to be mindless good-natured sheep, but you get my general message.

 

[darksoul]

Not everyone is going to be compatible or get along, and that doesn't have to be a bad thing. So a feeler can learn that in order to make a thinker happier (which feelers often want to do), instead of treating the thinker the way the feeler would want to be treated, the feeler can learn to limit some of their sentimentality and stick to discussing issues and situations the thinkers prefer in the manner that thinkers prefer.

my best friend is an ISFJ. we've been arguing a lot lately because he's on an emotional rollercoaster. (he is trying to get a girl to like him though she has explicitly told him she's not interested). i have tried to advise him to forget about her and move on, but that just seemed to upset him more. he's usually a nice guy but when he's in a mood, he gets defensive and almost condescending. is it just him or do ISFJs turn this ugly when they are hurt?

 

[Psilo]

And even though I'm bad at putting it to practice as naturally as a natural F would, I definitely value the Feeling function. With it, you can persuade people to go along with you, earn people's trust and therefore earn privileges and liberties you wouldn't have otherwise, and you get away with things MUCH more often.

Mmmmm, tertiary Fe. Juicy.

Anyways, I think it's natural for people to think their prefered way of thinking is the 'best' or 'correct' way. Also to think that everyone thinks the same way, therefore, those with other preferences are being deliberately 'wrong.'

To F types, it's irrational not to use feelings or emotions in situations. For, what good is pure logic if it lacks any connection with humanity?

Of course both ways have their place. I certainly wouldn't try to 'feel' a cure for cancer, that's not how that works. I will give more weight to what feels right when choosing my career because building a happy life is what is rational to me.

Oh, and I don't really buy into the groupthink traditions being mentioned. The point of those is to feel better, not to be logical. Funerals aren't for the dead, they are to ease grieving for the living. Churches arouse very primal sensations people interpret as spirituality and help bring some sense of closure with the bigger unknowns so they can get back to life. Not the way I would like it, but, to an extent, there's little harm.

If you don't need it, you don't need it. Nothing wrong with it, and I understand wishing people would get that.

To an F type, emotions have inherent meaning. Like pleasure and pain give signals to how your body is doing, emotion gives clues to how you feel and what you think about things. It's not a natural strength for an F type to downplay them as they surface. There's also little cultural nurturing for the skill. F types either are allowed to let their emotions run rampant, or told to just not emote. Neither are very reasonable paths and typically lead to that overemotional F stereotype.

 

[teddy564339]

my best friend is an ISFJ. we've been arguing a lot lately because he's on an emotional rollercoaster. (he is trying to get a girl to like him though she has explicitly told him she's not interested). i have tried to advise him to forget about her and move on, but that just seemed to upset him more. he's usually a nice guy but when he's in a mood, he gets defensive and almost condescending. is it just him or do ISFJs turn this ugly when they are hurt?

*Sigh. I hate to say it, but I do think this is an ISFJ thing. Or at least it's something I can personally relate to.

A while back, I was in love with someone, or at least the closest to being in love that I've ever felt in my life. The person had no interest in me romantically at all from what I could tell. I didn't tell many people in my life, but I did tell a number of online friends...if I remember right, they tested as ENFP, INFJ, and ENTP. They all told me pretty much the same thing...that I was tearing myself apart for no reason over this person, that this person wasn't nearly as special or perfect as I imagined, and that I needed to drop it and move on.

The thing is, rationally I knew they were right. I knew that this person was just like any other human and that the smart thing to do was just to move on. But I couldn't for the longest time. Even though part of me wanted to, another part of me felt like it would be the worst thing in the world, and I just couldn't do it. I was almost driving myself crazy.

To this day I still can't quite explain it. The emotion is unlike anything else I've ever felt. I don't know how much of this is an ISFJ thing, and how much of it was just the idea of being in love. I think ISFJ's are such loyal, committed, yet stubborn people. Once we get attached to something, anything, we stick on for the longest time.

I used to go on and on and on about this person to my online friends, and thankfully they humored me and listened (I think it's easier to listen to someone's non-stop babbling online :wink: ). Sometimes they would give me hints that they had had enough, so I stopped and did my best not to talk about it any more....but it helped so much when I did talk about it.


ISFJ's can be very moody, especially with things like this when such strong emotions take over. I think it's just one of those things that you have to be patient with and just let it run it's course. For me, the feeling just naturally faded out over time. The person moved far away from me, and it forced me to realize that I would be unhappy forever if I didn't let it go and move on with my life. It of course helped to find other happy things to replace it with, to make me forget about this person. I still have some of those feelings when I think back to the situation, though...but that doesn't happen often.

But believe me, when it comes to something like this, rationality is just out the window. It's possible that your friend even totally understands and agrees with you completely but just can't force himself to do anything about it mentally. When the issue comes up, I think the best things you can do are to (a) just let him say his piece about her, get it out of his system, and hope that he moves on to talking about something else, or (b) try to find something to do with him that he really likes, in order to get his mind off of her. It can be anything, as long as he enjoys it, whether that's talking about a different subject that he likes or doing some activity that he likes.

But yes, ISFJ's turn very ugly when we're hurt. We can be extremely irrational and stubborn. But if you're patient with us, it always passes in time. :happy: