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Attraction is different and yeah--I do think it's important for a relationship.

But some of the happiest couples I can think of aren't necessarily going to win any beauty pageants, and besides--looks fade. I guess I'm thinking about long-term relationships like marriage. And while looks aren't harmful, perhaps those couples had more in common than looks which is why they seem to have had a stronger foundation that is more lasting. Beauty is subjective though and attraction is also very individual, but I am referring to what is considered conventionally beautiful/handsome.

I just don't think it helps much to worry about how you look for others, as beauty is subjective--but how happy you are with your own appearance since that will affect your confidence and your overall happiness. Looks can be important, but for most people they are not as important as young people sometimes are made to feel--either from the cosmetic companies or just watching fellow young people mess around. And even if you manage to impress someone with your looks, it's no guarantee that they are the right person for you (probably very little likelihood since looks are so superficial).

I don't think people should seek to be in relationships with people who they aren't attracted to though. That is not what I'm saying. I've also had a hard time arguing with my teenager about using acne soap because they assert "looks shouldn't matter!" So it's not really simple, I don't think.
I don't think anyone bases a long term relationship on looks alone. Looks attracts people to you, but it's your other qualities and also what YOU'RE looking for with a spouse that begin to become more important than physical beauty. I mean, I kind of feel like we have the same opinion on the matter, but I guess you also being a mom gives you a different perspective. I'd be floored if my kid said that to me, because it's not a matter of looks but a matter of perception as people are going to think your teen isn't washing their face or is eating poorly or doing something generally unsanitary.

But yes, a good looking couple may not necessarily be the happiest couple. Personally, I do think looks are initially important, but then other factors like compatibility (social, emotional, sexual, cultural, etc), being able to live together, not arguing, agreement on kids (and starting a family), personal values, etc start to become deciding factors in whether you'd want to be in a long term relationship with a person. Also, studies on long term arranged marriages/relationships show that happiness comes with time and understanding. You don't even necessarily have to like each other much at first, but simply sharing space with someone successfully and the both of you being able to understand where you're each coming from will lead to a happy relationship.

So yeah, whether looks are important or not can be complicated, but the secret to a happy relationship is actually very simple. Time and understanding, that's all it takes. Well, and you have to find your spouse to be attractive as well, but that's my additional condition. :)
 

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Person that looks too good can also appear intimidating.
Not too many people are willing to admit this, but yes, looking too good can make one seem less approachable and even intimidating, yes.
 

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\ I'd be floored if my kid said that to me, because it's not a matter of looks but a matter of perception as people are going to think your teen isn't washing their face or is eating poorly or doing something generally unsanitary.
Yeah I'm not a fan of arguing with stubborn teenagers and mine can be just as stubborn as I am (or more). We've been there. lol Now I resort to hoping my dad will back me up about things, though usually my teen will relent at some point.

I even resorted to trying to emphasize that acne is a fungus...living on your face! Do you want some kind of parasite living on your face?!

I think ultimately to me it's more about wanting the teen to understand control--that they do have control over their own body--not to have to feel resigned to just let acne take over.

As I know when I was a kid most of my friends who had acne (I didn't really--just from genes probably more than any good skincare routine) felt like it was so futile and difficult to try to get rid of. Some people are just more prone to acne, especially as teenagers, but there are things you can do.

And I think people feel better when they feel like they can make those kinds of decisions for themselves about their bodies--like whether to have clear skin or defined muscles or whatever.

But being a woman and knowing people who've had serious self-esteem issues and even body image disorders and eating disorders, I don't agree with putting pressure on people or causing insecurity, so I try not to do that. (though maybe arguing with teens brings it out)

I think it's difficult, sometimes, to make the distinction (but it's so important) between doing something because you feel insecure and as if something is wrong with you and engaging in a creative project with your body that makes you feel more empowered and happy.

And I guess to me that's what the acne is about--it's about feeling empowered to be able to clear up your skin and not feeling hopeless. But I think teens have a lot of emotions and ideas going on and sometimes it takes time for them to work through that kind of stuff. And then also, it's nice to put some effort into your appearance for others as well, though I don't even think acne should be considered that way--but if it helps motivate you to take better care of yourself and learn new skills then that's good I guess--so long as you're not dipping into self-loathing or developing destructive behaviors (which I've known friends to do about bodyweight etc. as teens). But his girlfriend doesn't care about his skin--I just want him to know that he does have the power to have more control over his body than the acne fungus or anything else that isn't particularly beneficial.

But I was struck with what my Gender Studies teacher said--that there are "body projects" and creative goals we can set for our own bodies and appearance--and that can be great. They can be fun, they can be energizing, and they end up leaving people feeling empowered and happy.
 

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I think any person who says "they don't care about looks" is frankly lying.
I think it is pretty obvious that everyone cares about looks to some extent. I can certainly tell a lot by the way a person cares about their appearance, how they dress, conduct themselves, etc.
Of course, natural beauty plays a part, but it only goes so far. I tend to notice more if a person isn't born attractive, but presents him/herself to the best standard they can. I tend to notice the effort they put in.

I don't think it's strictly a problem for the "young" either. A person's personality shines through how they present themselves externally. Young and old can both see it.
Your morals and ideas may change over time, but you'll be attracted to people who reflect those ideas by how they look. The ideas in the principle may change, but the overall principle stays the same.
 

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Looks matter to me but inner beauty is equally important. I don’t care if a woman looks like a model but I do want a minimum level of physical attraction. Other than looks I care about if we click and how well we sync together. I’ve met women whom are attractive and bore me to death, therefore I have no desire to date or sleep with them.
 

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Discussion Starter #27
I think any person who says "they don't care about looks" is frankly lying.
I think it is pretty obvious that everyone cares about looks to some extent. I can certainly tell a lot by the way a person cares about their appearance, how they dress, conduct themselves, etc.
Of course, natural beauty plays a part, but it only goes so far. I tend to notice more if a person isn't born attractive, but presents him/herself to the best standard they can. I tend to notice the effort they put in.

I don't think it's strictly a problem for the "young" either. A person's personality shines through how they present themselves externally. Young and old can both see it.
Your morals and ideas may change over time, but you'll be attracted to people who reflect those ideas by how they look. The ideas in the principle may change, but the overall principle stays the same.
I agree people that say looks don't matter to them are lying, their has to be attraction and looks are what pervoiks that.
And your taste can change just as your own personality and outlooks.
 

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Redacted

Hit send by accident while starting my thought process. Will post again later.
 

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I used to be part of a forum where misogyny, lookism and PUA culture ruled with an iron fist. These were the guys who would make fake online dating profiles to catfish Chads and deceive women into flirting with them.. Afterwards, they would post the results to prove that the world revolves around beautiful people. It got to the point where I was drinking everyday (hard liquor) and fell deeper and deeper into the throws of depression. I got sick of it and eventually pulled the plug. It's not that I didn't agree with them. I simply grew so sick of it all, I just walked away. The way our culture is designed now, it's ruled by a constant need to be validated. People don't care about quality over quantity anymore. They care about quantity over quality. And it's cripplingly frustrating if you let it consume you. Most of the girls on these dating sites are IG girls promoting their platforms. The rest are bombarded by pick up artists and perverts.
 

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Yeah I'm not a fan of arguing with stubborn teenagers and mine can be just as stubborn as I am (or more). We've been there. lol Now I resort to hoping my dad will back me up about things, though usually my teen will relent at some point.

I even resorted to trying to emphasize that acne is a fungus...living on your face! Do you want some kind of parasite living on your face?!

I think ultimately to me it's more about wanting the teen to understand control--that they do have control over their own body--not to have to feel resigned to just let acne take over.

As I know when I was a kid most of my friends who had acne (I didn't really--just from genes probably more than any good skincare routine) felt like it was so futile and difficult to try to get rid of. Some people are just more prone to acne, especially as teenagers, but there are things you can do.

And I think people feel better when they feel like they can make those kinds of decisions for themselves about their bodies--like whether to have clear skin or defined muscles or whatever.

But being a woman and knowing people who've had serious self-esteem issues and even body image disorders and eating disorders, I don't agree with putting pressure on people or causing insecurity, so I try not to do that. (though maybe arguing with teens brings it out)

I think it's difficult, sometimes, to make the distinction (but it's so important) between doing something because you feel insecure and as if something is wrong with you and engaging in a creative project with your body that makes you feel more empowered and happy.

And I guess to me that's what the acne is about--it's about feeling empowered to be able to clear up your skin and not feeling hopeless. But I think teens have a lot of emotions and ideas going on and sometimes it takes time for them to work through that kind of stuff. And then also, it's nice to put some effort into your appearance for others as well, though I don't even think acne should be considered that way--but if it helps motivate you to take better care of yourself and learn new skills then that's good I guess--so long as you're not dipping into self-loathing or developing destructive behaviors (which I've known friends to do about bodyweight etc. as teens). But his girlfriend doesn't care about his skin--I just want him to know that he does have the power to have more control over his body than the acne fungus or anything else that isn't particularly beneficial.

But I was struck with what my Gender Studies teacher said--that there are "body projects" and creative goals we can set for our own bodies and appearance--and that can be great. They can be fun, they can be energizing, and they end up leaving people feeling empowered and happy.
Huh, I see. Well that's an interesting way of looking at it I suppose. Although in the end, I'd say it's just acne and he'll likely outgrow it at some point. I know a lot of people who had acne as a teen, myself included and it went away after puberty. In my case, I don't really eat fried foods as they tend to make my skin oily and that's what causes any issues with acne I've ever had, although some accutane in my late teens ensured that it would never come back. When it comes to avoiding fried foods I make an exception for calamari, as any sane individual should. :p

Although I would say you should tell your teen to stop being so angsty, but again... I was one angsty teen too, so I guess I can relate even though it's been a long time since I was a teenager. lol

Hm, "body projects" sounds like it could be unhealthy if taken too far but in terms of body positivity then I guess it could be a good thing. I honestly don't like being at my medically recommended weight as I'm literally just skin and bones. Being 10 pounds over seems to be the sweet spot for me in terms of being able to maintain some muscle mass and not be too hard. :)
 

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Because looks, aesthetics and image are very important. If you want to succeed with your intelligence and make it to the top on your A game, it is best to bring a good presentation and look your best aesthetically. This influences people and wins. It is all about external image, hardwork and networking. Your partner is a representation of you and how you feel about yourself. If you date some slob you probably have low self-esteem and view yourself as that's all you're worth. Your partner should represent you everywhere you go. If your partner values their appearance and image, and you show up to work party looking like a slob because "I am a quality person on the inside and hope everyone sees it," that is really weird shit. I would never date someone that embarrasses me in public, but that is selfishness. I think SX-doms will throw their professional image and lifes work down the tubes for some romance. That is crazy to me.

People that dislike superficiality just aren't cut out for it. The same goes for a partner. You have to maintain your appearance, stay fit and attractive and healthy. No one wants a slob for a partner. It shows you care.

To me being superficial is just some small thing and not to take personally. It is all about gains. Most relationships are means to end. The hopeless romantic ideal of finding some prince/princess that doesn't care about looks and sees the inner you with no goals other than just your inner self is a fantasy for people that have the luxury to do nothing other than fairy daydreaming.

What you see now is a bunch of lazy entitled-to-romance slobs that put in any work on their appearance expecting to be 'served' by others because they are good quality picks for all their high IQ's or whatever and thought they deserved the castle on the hill. That is literally the definition of niceguy.
 

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Because looks, aesthetics and image are very important. If you want to succeed with your intelligence and make it to the top on your A game, it is best to bring a good presentation and look your best aesthetically. This influences people and wins. It is all about external image, hardwork and networking. Your partner is a representation of you and how you feel about yourself. If you date some slob you probably have low self-esteem and view yourself as that's all you're worth. Your partner should represent you everywhere you go. If your partner values their appearance and image, and you show up to work party looking like a slob because "I am a quality person on the inside and hope everyone sees it," that is really weird shit. I would never date someone that embarrasses me in public, but that is selfishness. I think SX-doms will throw their professional image and lifes work down the tubes for some romance. That is crazy to me.

People that dislike superficiality just aren't cut out for it. The same goes for a partner. You have to maintain your appearance, stay fit and attractive and healthy. No one wants a slob for a partner. It shows you care.

To me being superficial is just some small thing and not to take personally. It is all about gains. Most relationships are means to end. The hopeless romantic ideal of finding some prince/princess that doesn't care about looks and sees the inner you with no goals other than just your inner self is a fantasy for people that have the luxury to do nothing other than fairy daydreaming.

What you see now is a bunch of lazy entitled-to-romance slobs that put in any work on their appearance expecting to be 'served' by others because they are good quality picks for all their high IQ's or whatever and thought they deserved the castle on the hill. That is literally the definition of niceguy.
Not everyone is out after influencing others, and looks is but one way to do it. It's a very good way though. For instance if you work out and take care of your body it will boost your confidence, and having that is one of the biggest ways to attract or influence people. Something interesting are these rare cases when you have someone who's rather unimpressive physically, but they have this huge presence, humor or way of talking that draws people in. It can be a conscious choice though, for example Bill Gates who despite being one of the richest people, dresses in a quite simple way - to connect with people. In that way, you can also "bring yourself down" to achieve what you want. If he was always suited up for speeches, then I suspect people would view him differently. It might trigger a sense of jealousy in people, they could think he thinks he's above them. Instead he's comes off as more of a normal guy, just through the choices in clothing.

What's your instinct stacking? So/Sp? I think what you say about Sx-doms is interesting, being one myself. For me professional image and career are very separate from my romantic life. The way I dress at home is very relaxed and comfortable, that's when I can truly be myself. It's natural to me to not care so much about what other people think of me and what I wear. I'm definitely conscious of it to some extent, but not as much as other people maybe. For instance my wife will often tell me that I can't go out wearing something that I'm currently wearing. She cares about it alot more than I do, but then ISFPs have this way of expressing themselves through what they wear. She wants to look like she has her shit together. While for me, and you can see this in INTPs as well as INTJs, I don't care if others don't always think I have my shit together - it doesn't change the fact that I do. With these types it can often be that they place value on more cerebral activities, whatever it may be, and less on how they present themselves. There's a fine subtlety to some people that you may miss if you only care about how they present themselves through looks. Then there's definitely true slobs as you say. It's a spectrum. I agree that the odds of your niceguy as you describe them don't exactly increase the odds of getting what they want.
 
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Not everyone is out after influencing others, and looks is but one way to do it. It's a very good way though. For instance if you work out and take care of your body it will boost your confidence, and having that is one of the biggest ways to attract or influence people. Something interesting are these rare cases when you have someone who's rather unimpressive physically, but they have this huge presence, humor or way of talking that draws people in. It can be a conscious choice though, for example Bill Gates who despite being one of the richest people, dresses in a quite simple way - to connect with people. In that way, you can also "bring yourself down" to achieve what you want. If he was always suited up for speeches, then I suspect people would view him differently. It might trigger a sense of jealousy in people, they could think he thinks he's above them. Instead he's comes off as more of a normal guy, just through the choices in clothing.
Yeah, that's the luxury of being a rich nerdy man and having the luxury to do that. Most people can't go through life wearing cargo short(s) and sandals to the office except maybe a nerdy white or Indian male.

What's your instinct stacking? So/Sp? I think what you say about Sx-doms is interesting, being one myself. For me professional image and career are very separate from my romantic life. The way I dress at home is very relaxed and comfortable, that's when I can truly be myself. It's natural to me to not care so much about what other people think of me and what I wear. I'm definitely conscious of it to some extent, but not as much as other people maybe. For instance my wife will often tell me that I can't go out wearing something that I'm currently wearing. She cares about it alot more than I do, but then ISFPs have this way of expressing themselves through what they wear. She wants to look like she has her shit together. While for me, and you can see this in INTPs as well as INTJs, I don't care if others don't always think I have my shit together - it doesn't change the fact that I do. With these types it can often be that they place value on more cerebral activities, whatever it may be, and less on how they present themselves. There's a fine subtlety to some people that you may miss if you only care about how they present themselves through looks. Then there's definitely true slobs as you say. It's a spectrum. I agree that the odds of your niceguy as you describe them don't exactly increase the odds of getting what they want.
I am SO/SX.

Obviously at home it is a different story, but going out I like to look a certain way and am completely uncomfortable if the guy doesn't match my energy and enthusiasm. His indifference/apathy is off-putting and tells his "comfort" is more important than representing me as my partner as I do and would do for him.

I do not agree that type(s) that are more externally motivated are less cerebral, we just create balance everywhere and think outside ourselves.
 

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Yeah, that's the luxury of being a rich nerdy man and having the luxury to do that. Most people can't go through life wearing cargo short(s) and sandals to the office except maybe a nerdy white or Indian male.
I am a nerdy white man. You got me pinned to the rock here. ;)

When I go to work I often go in soft pants and a t-shirt, because my only exposure to the world is front door to car, car to locker room where I change to work clothes, then back again. Once there was an after work party which I totally forgot was on that day in particular and I came dressed in the above mentioned. It was okay, I know my coworkers and it was very relaxed, but I was embarassed about it. Normally I'd wear nice pants and fancy shirt, y'know. If I'd have a job where I wear the clothes I go in, I would never wear soft pants. I don't want to be improfessional at work, but I can be elsewhere.

I am SO/SX.

Obviously at home it is a different story, but going out I like to look a certain way and am completely uncomfortable if the guy doesn't match my energy and enthusiasm. His indifference/apathy is off-putting and tells his "comfort" is more important than representing me as my partner as I do and would do for him.
I remembered there being Sx in the mix. Would you say that you are comfortable in all kinds of social situations?

I do try to stay up to my partner's standards and respect her in public by what I wear. In a sense partners are extensions of eachother in that way, so I see why that kind of thing bothers you.

I do not agree that type(s) that are more externally motivated are less cerebral, we just create balance everywhere and think outside ourselves.
I was going to edit this, but too late. I realized that what I wrote may be interpreted as people who care about looks are less cerebral, which is not at all what I was after. Fashion takes alot of brains. What I meant was that some people focus on more purely abstract things, whereas externally motivated activites can be a combination. Such a cerebrally motivated person, let's say, are more likely to forget about caring for themselves and their exterior presentation.
 

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It is often the case that, while good looks are not that relevant, looks themselves are relevant. What I mean by that is that when you really like someone, the way that they look just gets to you. Even if they do not look particularly conventionally good looking. As others have pointed out, initial attraction is often based on a je ne se qua.
 

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I struggle to understand my stance on physical attraction. Very rarely do I feel magnetically pulled to someone based on appearance. I usually find myself falling in love based on intellect, or a shimmering depth encompassing the aura of somebody. Very rarely have a purely felt love for somebody based on their appearance. However, sometimes I do feel physically attracted, and it's strange. It fills my heart with a sense of yearning. I don't think physical attraction captures a person's worth whatsoever. I would rather devote my life to somebody who does not initially physically attract me but pulls on my heart, rather than somebody who infuses my eyes with lust but then shatters me with an ignorant or lacking personality. My feelings of physical attraction sometimes disturb me and make me feel guilty. I don't want my heart to gravitate towards something as shallow as pure physical appearance. Sometimes it can be tantalizing, but other times I feel attracted to someone entirely based on their intellect and personality. I find the concept of initial attraction very intriguing, however. I wonder if it has to do with psychological associations-what the brain perceives as pleasant, familiar, or comforting. I know the theory that people are often attracted to those that look like themselves or their parents, because of the familiarity it psychologically invokes- but I'm not quite sure in my experience. As for being cerebrally or aesthetically motivated, I feel I am somewhere in between? Intellect dazzles me and strikes me in a way that appearance cannot, but I do feel pulled towards aesthetics. I cherish a beautiful sunset because it pleases my eyes and my heart, but I also find meaning in drowning in a mentally fascinating book. But I really couldn't spend the rest of my life with somebody with an ugly or deformed heart but a pleasing appearance. Looks can pull at the mind in spellbinding ways sometimes, but I need to feel something more.

I'm also particularly struggling because I do feel physically dazzled by one of my future classmates on social media, but I barely know him. It's extremely rare for me to feel compelled towards someone in such a purely physical way. He also has a kind and sentimental persona, at least from what I can glean from his posts, but part of me still feels I only feel magnetically drawn because of his appearance. I don't want to become one of those humans fixated merely on lust, it is very unlike me. But I am in a conundrum right now. I don't know. Maybe I am overanalyzing or misinterpreting my emotions.
 

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I used to be part of a forum where misogyny, lookism and PUA culture ruled with an iron fist. These were the guys who would make fake online dating profiles to catfish Chads and deceive women into flirting with them.. Afterwards, they would post the results to prove that the world revolves around beautiful people. It got to the point where I was drinking everyday (hard liquor) and fell deeper and deeper into the throws of depression. I got sick of it and eventually pulled the plug. It's not that I didn't agree with them. I simply grew so sick of it all, I just walked away. The way our culture is designed now, it's ruled by a constant need to be validated. People don't care about quality over quantity anymore. They care about quantity over quality. And it's cripplingly frustrating if you let it consume you. Most of the girls on these dating sites are IG girls promoting their platforms. The rest are bombarded by pick up artists and perverts.
Just get off the internet. People in the real word are not as crazy as they sometimes seem online.
 

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Because good looks are attractive. Same way high intelligence is attractive. Or talents are attractive. Nothing wrong with people knowing what they like and being upfront about it. It doesn't make them fake. Fake would be pretending that they don't care about looks when they do, getting with someone they find ugly, only to make themselves and their partner miserable.
 

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I think any person who says "they don't care about looks" is frankly lying.
I think it is pretty obvious that everyone cares about looks to some extent. I can certainly tell a lot by the way a person cares about their appearance, how they dress, conduct themselves, etc.

I don't think it's strictly a problem for the "young" either. A person's personality shines through how they present themselves externally. Young and old can both see it.
Your morals and ideas may change over time, but you'll be attracted to people who reflect those ideas by how they look. The ideas in the principle may change, but the overall principle stays the same.
I agree people that say looks don't matter to them are lying, their has to be attraction and looks are what pervoiks that.
Maybe it's safer to say that one's tastes, perceptions, and preferences influence whether a person finds some... 'thing' attractive or not(duh!). So, externally generated senses and 'superficiality' do matter, but aren't limited to looks only.

Ironically, the blind don't have the luxury of being what's stated as 'sincere'; even though you'd think their 'real' relationships would be some of the most sincere. Of course, I'm sure within that group there are probably many an outlier where a partner is kept or chosen in order to boost social perception of one's status and worth...
 
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