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Discussion Starter #1
I'm just wondering why people pin ESFJs down as being one of the most unbearable types because, personally, I don't see anything about you guys' functions that would make you unlikable.

Fe--group oriented, like to make everyone feel welcome, empathetic, caring
Si--remember little sensory details
Ne--explores possibilities
Ti--not so great at applying subjective logic?


Obviously, my description of the functions ^ was extremely watered down, but even so, whats so offensive about that combination?

I don't get it.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
hey everybody seems great in a laboratory setting, it's in real life that they get obsessed, possessive, controlling and other words with double letters in em
true, but doesn't that go for all types? i mean, what makes people pin it on the ESFJs mostly? personally, i think people are just typing all of the people they don't like as esfjs and that gives them a bad stereotype. maybe its because theres not enough esfjs here to defend themselves so its one of the easier types to talk smack about online.
 

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I can't speak for others, but for me it is extroverted feeling, it wears me out. I find it to be smothering. Just my two cents. I don't have anything against ESFJs as a type, I just know my personal experiences with a few ESFJs hasn't been pleasant - I don't blame it entirely on them, but rather on the fact that I don't mesh well with those people, it is on both parties in my case anyways.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I can't speak for others, but for me it is extroverted feeling, it wears me out. I find it to be smothering. Just my two cents. I don't have anything against ESFJs as a type, I just know my personal experiences with a few ESFJs hasn't been pleasant - I don't blame it entirely on them, but rather on the fact that I don't mesh well with those people, it is on both parties in my case anyways.
do you think you could give me an example of Fe being smothering? I'm just curious. :)
 
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do you think you could give me an example of Fe being smothering? I'm just curious. :)
Well for one, my mom will force food on me I do not want. She will tell me the best way to take care of my health, my daughter, etc. Her intentions are good, she is looking out for my welfare, but she will not allow me to make my own decisions or be my own person. She tells me how I am feeling, and that is a big no no (especially because she is usually wrong). Those are just a few things.
 

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I'm also surprised that people don't like them much.
I have an ESFJ friend and she a very sweet person and usually has good intentions. The most things I don't like about her is that she talks way too much about almost anything which is extremely annoying and that she kinda close-minded.. but no one's perfect, right?
But maybe the unhealthy ESFJs (exteremly controlling and manipulative) are unbearable.
 

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I'm also surprised that people don't like them much.
I have an ESFJ friend and she a very sweet person and usually has good intentions. The most things I don't like about her is that she talks way too much about almost anything which is extremely annoying and that she kinda close-minded.. but no one's perfect, right?
But maybe the unhealthy ESFJs (exteremly controlling and manipulative) are unbearable.
Yes, I think being unhealthy is the crux of it (and that goes for any type). I don't put it all on my mother, I just don't interact well with her, it is on both of us and we need to meet in the middle. Only problem is, she doesn't recognize this easily.

My mom talks a LOT and about inane things, and she is definitely close-minded. I am fine with that as long as she doesn't try to impose upon me. I am still working out my boundary issues :)

FWIW I don't dislike ESFJs.. I just find it difficult to relate to them
 

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I'd have to agree with Fe being overbearing and thus, easily annoying to others. I'm an Fe user myself, but I think having Ti as my tertiary helps me balance out my Fe use a great deal. ESFJ's don't have Ti as readily available, and will rely on their Si and Ne to back up their decisions. My mother is ESFJ and she drives me up a wall. I love her and respect her way of thinking, but it's not something I easily relate or agree with.
 

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Well for one, my mom will force food on me I do not want. She will tell me the best way to take care of my health, my daughter, etc. Her intentions are good, she is looking out for my welfare, but she will not allow me to make my own decisions or be my own person. She tells me how I am feeling, and that is a big no no (especially because she is usually wrong). Those are just a few things.
That's me when I was extremely unhealthy and recovering from my accident. Basically, for me I think it was due to a reverse of my Ni-Fe which was causing the lack of trust and faith in other people. I did become demanding and controlling -- but it was different from an SF in that my demands were longer term plans and achievements (which seem unrealistic and unrealizable now in retrospect) rather than minute details of day-day living.

Personally, I've never met another Fe-user IRL --- but I kinda wish I did. There was a time when I really needed it - I would've been less miserable and therefore more inclined to trust other people.

Oh well, bygones. Time to learn from one's mistakes .. and really hearing the other types about their feelings regarding Fe-usage is keeping mine in check.
 

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If the world was based on intentions, the ESFJ would easily be seen as one of the greatest types. This is not the case, so they are often seen as insufferable! I personally like that though. I like to be told what to do about things I couldn't possibly care less about.
 

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As an INFP with an ESFJ sister, we have sibling fights a lot, but when we're "plying nice" then things are great. It's an interesting dynamic, but for the most part I just stay out of her way when she's in a bad mood and that tends to solve the problem. (what I can't STAND is when she invites a bunch of her friends over. Then I just go hide in my room.)
 

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I'll try to break it down. Almost every single ESFJ I've ever met completely lacks an internal compass. They do what the masses are doing and that's it. Because of this quality they are complete conformists and if they didn't have the pleasure of growing up in a good environment they will do the worst things and really have no way of realizing that what they are doing is bad/ridiculous. They love venting about their problems to others, but don't want other people to offer their advice, they just want to listen. And if you should happen to give them any advice that doesn't support their position on the issue they throw a huge fuss.

Extroverted feelers have Introverted thinking as a function, but they completely suppress it. This means that every conclusion they reach, no matter how logical it is will be rejected at the outset if it disturbs their feelings. That is why they tend to 'shoot the messenger'. They don't like bad news, and if you tell them something that makes them unhappy, they will hold you responsible for the change in their feelings that the bad news causes, even if in your mind you are looking out for them. They will even go as far as to convince themselves that the person who gave them bad news, or gave them an opinion that 'bursts their bubbles' had malicious intentions. Jung describes the logical thinking of this type to be 'infantile, archaic, and negative thinking'. Their logic is a slave to their feelings at any given moment.

I've read that they're good at manipulating but I've only met one who was even well liked. The rest did enough to fit in, but everyone could see through them and I've actually found this type to be very unpopular with their peers, especially after lengthy exposure to them.

This is an excerpt from personalitypage.com,

"With Extraverted Feeling dominating their personality, ESFJs are focused on reading other people. They have a strong need to be liked, and to be in control. They are extremely good at reading others, and often change their own manner to be more pleasing to whoever they're with at the moment.

The ESFJ's value system is defined externally. They usually have very well-formed ideas about the way things should be, and are not shy about expressing these opinions. However, they weigh their values and morals against the world around them, rather than against an internal value system. They may have a strong moral code, but it is defined by the community that they live in, rather than by any strongly felt internal values.
"

What is appealing about any of that? I want to be liked, but my confidence comes from within. It seems their entire characters revolve around other people's opinions/approval. People who are around these types of individuals long enough surely pick up on these traits and the way they define their values externally can really be a disaster with this type. I'll elaborate more on that but first read this excerpt from personalitypage:

"ESFJs who have had the benefit of being raised and surrounded by a strong value system that is ethical and centered around genuine goodness will most likely be the kindest, most generous souls who will gladly give you the shirt off of their back without a second thought. For these individuals, the selfless quality of their personality type is genuine and pure. ESFJs who have not had the advantage of developing their own values by weighing them against a good external value system may develop very questionable values. In such cases, the ESFJ most often genuinely believes in the integrity of their skewed value system. They have no internal understanding of values to set them straight. In weighing their values against our society, they find plenty of support for whatever moral transgression they wish to justify. This type of ESFJ is a dangerous person indeed. Extraverted Feeling drives them to control and manipulate, and their lack of Intuition prevents them from seeing the big picture. They're usually quite popular and good with people, and good at manipulating them. Unlike their ENFJ cousin, they don't have Intuition to help them understand the real consequences of their actions. They are driven to manipulate other to achieve their own ends, yet they believe that they are following a solid moral code of conduct."

Combine this with the fact that they often don't like to have their opinions questioned and things can get really bad. What are traditional values to you or I are not going to be the same traditional values present everywhere, so in societies with messed up traditional values (like parts of the middle east or sub-saharan Africa) having these types of people there I would imagine can cause many of the problems present in those societies. It seems to them, "what everyone else is doing is surely correct, why else would everyone be doing it?". I imagine there are a ton of ESFJ's in gangs and serving in the armies of dictators all over the world. Fe completely suppresses logic, and Si is by nature a very subjective function. Fe Si users are some of the least objective types according to Jung (only surpassed by Si Fe).

I've really disliked most ESFJ's I've come across, and many of the ones I've gotten to know on a personal level have turned me off even more. I was a jock in high school and there were a lot of ESFJ's at my school who wanted me to like them, even if I wasn't nice to them. It seems their entire opinions about people are shaped by popular opinion. Even if they grew up with someone, if public opinion is "that person is uncool, or no longer 'well liked'" they will drop them like a bad habit. And strangely enough in their minds people who aren't well liked deserve less respect than their enemies, who they usually treat with the utmost respect and care. The only ESFJ's I've really hung around are the ones who have made themselves useful to me, and even then it was very hard. Anyway, many of the qualities they exibit strike me as very 'fake', I can't imagine it being that hard for others to pick up on.

Anyway, I've found that I can actually enjoy situations with ESFJ's but anything more than a superficial relationship with them is mind numbing.
 

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I'll try to break it down. Almost every single ESFJ I've ever met completely lacks an internal compass. They do what the masses are doing and that's it. Because of this quality they are complete conformists and if they didn't have the pleasure of growing up in a good environment they will do the worst things and really have no way of realizing that what they are doing is bad/ridiculous. They love venting about their problems to others, but don't want other people to offer their advice, they just want to listen. And if you should happen to give them any advice that doesn't support their position on the issue they throw a huge fuss.

Extroverted feelers have Introverted thinking as a function, but they completely suppress it. This means that every conclusion they reach, no matter how logical it is will be rejected at the outset if it disturbs their feelings. That is why they tend to 'shoot the messenger'. They don't like bad news, and if you tell them something that makes them unhappy, they will hold you responsible for the change in their feelings that the bad news causes, even if in your mind you are looking out for them. They will even go as far as to convince themselves that the person who gave them bad news, or gave them an opinion that 'bursts their bubbles' had malicious intentions. Jung describes the logical thinking of this type to be 'infantile, archaic, and negative thinking'. Their logic is a slave to their feelings at any given moment.

I've read that they're good at manipulating but I've only met one who was even well liked. The rest did enough to fit in, but everyone could see through them and I've actually found this type to be very unpopular with their peers, especially after lengthy exposure to them.

This is an excerpt from personalitypage.com,

"With Extraverted Feeling dominating their personality, ESFJs are focused on reading other people. They have a strong need to be liked, and to be in control. They are extremely good at reading others, and often change their own manner to be more pleasing to whoever they're with at the moment.

The ESFJ's value system is defined externally. They usually have very well-formed ideas about the way things should be, and are not shy about expressing these opinions. However, they weigh their values and morals against the world around them, rather than against an internal value system. They may have a strong moral code, but it is defined by the community that they live in, rather than by any strongly felt internal values.
"

What is appealing about any of that? I want to be liked, but my confidence comes from within. It seems their entire characters revolve around other people's opinions/approval. People who are around these types of individuals long enough surely pick up on these traits and the way they define their values externally can really be a disaster with this type. I'll elaborate more on that but first read this excerpt from personalitypage:

"ESFJs who have had the benefit of being raised and surrounded by a strong value system that is ethical and centered around genuine goodness will most likely be the kindest, most generous souls who will gladly give you the shirt off of their back without a second thought. For these individuals, the selfless quality of their personality type is genuine and pure. ESFJs who have not had the advantage of developing their own values by weighing them against a good external value system may develop very questionable values. In such cases, the ESFJ most often genuinely believes in the integrity of their skewed value system. They have no internal understanding of values to set them straight. In weighing their values against our society, they find plenty of support for whatever moral transgression they wish to justify. This type of ESFJ is a dangerous person indeed. Extraverted Feeling drives them to control and manipulate, and their lack of Intuition prevents them from seeing the big picture. They're usually quite popular and good with people, and good at manipulating them. Unlike their ENFJ cousin, they don't have Intuition to help them understand the real consequences of their actions. They are driven to manipulate other to achieve their own ends, yet they believe that they are following a solid moral code of conduct."

Combine this with the fact that they often don't like to have their opinions questioned and things can get really bad. What are traditional values to you or I are not going to be the same traditional values present everywhere, so in societies with messed up traditional values (like parts of the middle east or sub-saharan Africa) having these types of people there I would imagine can cause many of the problems present in those societies. It seems to them, "what everyone else is doing is surely correct, why else would everyone be doing it?". I imagine there are a ton of ESFJ's in gangs and serving in the armies of dictators all over the world. Fe completely suppresses logic, and Si is by nature a very subjective function. Fe Si users are some of the least objective types according to Jung (only surpassed by Si Fe).

I've really disliked most ESFJ's I've come across, and many of the ones I've gotten to know on a personal level have turned me off even more. I was a jock in high school and there were a lot of ESFJ's at my school who wanted me to like them, even if I wasn't nice to them. It seems their entire opinions about people are shaped by popular opinion. Even if they grew up with someone, if public opinion is "that person is uncool, or no longer 'well liked'" they will drop them like a bad habit. And strangely enough in their minds people who aren't well liked deserve less respect than their enemies, who they usually treat with the utmost respect and care. The only ESFJ's I've really hung around are the ones who have made themselves useful to me, and even then it was very hard. Anyway, many of the qualities they exibit strike me as very 'fake', I can't imagine it being that hard for others to pick up on.

Anyway, I've found that I can actually enjoy situations with ESFJ's but anything more than a superficial relationship with them is mind numbing.
But like everybody else you are only quoting what you want to here, the "poorly developed ESFJ" and not the one who was raised with good values.

I've really disliked most ESFJ's I've come across, and many of the ones I've gotten to know on a personal level have turned me off even more. I was a jock in high school and there were a lot of ESFJ's at my school who wanted me to like them, even if I wasn't nice to them. It seems their entire opinions about people are shaped by popular opinion. Even if they grew up with someone, if public opinion is "that person is uncool, or no longer 'well liked'" they will drop them like a bad habit.
I don't think I've ever heard something like that... I think that the last thing an ESFJ would do was drop somebody because they were "uncool" or no longer "well liked". It's sort of pertinent to point out that the defining trait or description of the ESFJ is "The Helper" or "The Caregiver", not the "Uncaring asshole". That description is quite Opposite what a "caregiver" is.

I'm going to be blunt in this post because there is a lot of this when most people seem to describe the "unhealthy" ones.
These are from here: ESFJ - The Helper
They gain the respect of others because of their helpfulness, pleasantness, and ability to get things done. They carry out their commitments and are often in charge of events. Mature ESFJs often structure both their work and personal lives so that they can meet the needs of others.
ESFJ's generally don't take no for an answer when somebody refuses help or says they don't want to be friends, especially if the SJ function which is quick to judge decided that they were an OK person.

ESFJs are hurt by indifference and need to be appreciated both for themselves and for the abundance, typically in the form of services, they give to others. [...] Values in an ESFJ may take the form of shoulds and should nots and may be freely expressed. Conscientious and orderly, ESFJs may become restless when isolated from people.
They are hurt by indifference, and once again "discarding" or not talking to somebody because they're "not cool" is not a general trait of the ESFJ.

Generally upbeat and popular, people are drawn towards them
(From the Personality Page)

You're also ENTP which differs quite a bit form ESFJ, J and P and N and S are quite big differences in the way that people see the world, and whilst I won't say you have, a lot of people gloss over this point ignoring the fact that ESFJ's are generally entirely based around feelings.
 
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