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And then just chose the one that you admire more in the book, haha.

I'm not sure actually about Tom Condons style. He changes quiet a bit in the last part of the interview. Becomes livlier, and what I also noticed is, that he never needs long to reflect before talking.
 

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Could you tell me more why you can definetely rule out the idea of Jackie being a four?
I'll note first that I just checked what Katherine Fauvre has Jackie at, she chose 5 for her too: Enneagram Personality Type 5: The Observer

The first thing I look for in a 4 is a pattern of emotionality. Jackie's mother described her as a person who would "cover her feelings". She was the opposite to someone who needed to "take care of emotional needs before attending to anything else" so 4 is not a possibility. When I type I prefer to positively identify traits (and only bother doing a final other-type ruling out step if absolutely necessary). To me Jackie is so obviously not a core 4 I don't see the point in fully negating it in detail -- I'm lazy efficient like that.

I happen to know quite a bit about the 3 sx (having that influence in my own tritype) so she is immediately recognizable to me as a 3 sx (for many reasons). To double check, since others put her at 5 due to her distinct emotional reserve (and a 3 fix is possible), I look for how much image mattered to her. The answer is yes, absolutely image mattered to her, a lot actually. So I call her as a 3w4 not a 5w4. "Threes are diplomatic and poised, but can also be overly concerned with their image and what others think of them. At their best: self-accepting, authentic, everything they seem to be—role models who inspire others." [from Enneagram Institute]

 
Type Three Overview
We have named personality type Three The Achiever because when they are healthy, Threes really can and do achieve great things in the world. They are the "stars" of human nature, and people often look up to them because of their graciousness and personal accomplishments. Healthy Threes know how good it feels to develop themselves and contribute their abilities to the world, and also enjoy motivating others to greater personal achievements than others thought they were capable of.

Threes are often successful and well liked because, of all the types, they most believe in themselves and in developing their talents and capacities. Threes act as living “role models” and paragons because of their extraordinary embodiment of socially valued qualities. Healthy Threes know that they are worth the effort it takes to be “the best that they can be.” Their success at doing so inspires others to invest in their own self-development.
Type Three—Levels of Development
Healthy Levels
Level 1 (At Their Best): Self-accepting, inner-directed, and authentic, everything they seem to be. Modest and charitable, self-deprecatory humor and a fullness of heart emerge. Gentle and benevolent.

Level 2: Self-assured, energetic, and competent with high self-esteem: they believe in themselves and their own value. Adaptable, desirable, charming, and gracious.

Level 3: Ambitious to improve themselves, to be "the best they can be"—often become outstanding, a human ideal, embodying widely admired cultural qualities. Highly effective: others are motivated to be like them in some positive way.
I specifically see her as the 3 sx:
 
Sexual Threes (according to Beatrice Chestnut)
The Sexual Three - "Charisma"
In this Three, vanity is not denied (as with the Self-Preservation Three) or embraced (like the Social Three); rather, it's somewhere in between, being employed in the service of creating an attractive image and promoting important others.

The Sexual Three is sweet and shy and not as extroverted as the Social Three-especially when it comes to speaking about himself. It's hard for these Threes to promote themselves, so they often put the focus on others they want to support.

Although Ichazo called this type "Masculinity/Femininity," Naranjo explains that this is not Hollywood-style masculinity or femininity, or even necessarily a very sexualized masculinity or femininity This type is more concerned with having an attractive presentation as a man or a woman-and, subtly at times, with pleasing others by being attractive in a classically masculine or feminine way. And while Threes are heart types, in this subtype the pleasing may occur less through emotional connection or sexual seductiveness and more through a mental connection or enthusiastic support. Naranjo changed the name to "Charisma" to reflect the special way Sexual Threes motivate and excite the admiration of others through a quality of "personal magnetism."

Sexual Threes achieve within relationships. These Threes are pleasers and helpers; they tend to work hard in support of someone else, expending a lot of energy in promoting others. Sexual Threes can be very ambitious and hardworking, but it’s always to make someone else look good. Often this Three doesn't seem like a Three because they are not so focused on their own status and achievement, but for them it's more about being attractive and supporting others-it's enough for them to be beautiful; they don't have to achieve to get love. It's the pleasing that brings approval or love, so they don't have to be conventional achievers.

These Threes tend to be oriented toward pleasing others in the sense of having a family or team mentality. They may focus narrowly on what is good for the family (at home or at work) and project the image of someone who is good in this way

Because so much depends on their being attractive to others, Sexual Threes think they need to be good and perfect to be loved. They tend to be very helpful to prove their lovability-they aspire to have the image of the "best lover" or the "perfect wife."


Okay so I don't exactly have a horse in the race for if Jackie was a 3, 4 or 5, however... She was not all fluffy. I do feel like she was a withdrawn type which learned to present an image of femininity as a protective mechanism and a power move to support her husband's platform.
Aside from the word 'withdrawn', ^this is the 3 sx.

Now I know the assassination of ones husband is going to be a pretty extreme scenario, but when I think of Jackie I think of the following:

In Death of a President, William Manchester wrote: ”The Lincoln flew down the boulevard’s central lane; her pillbox hat, caught in an eddy of whipping the wind, slid down over her forehead, and with a violent movement she yanked it off and flung it down. The hat-pin tore out a hank of her own hair. She didn’t even feel the pain.

At the hospital, several people asked the former first lady to change her gore-soaked pink Chanel suit. But, Jackie, obviously still in shock and in the fist phase of grieving, assertively refused, saying:Oh, no … I want them to see what they have done to Jack.

Despite all the efforts that people around her did to convince her to take off the blood-stained suit, Mrs. Kennedy continued to wear the Chanel suit, ... alongside Vice President Johnson as he was sworn in as the 36th President of the United States. Lady Bird [Johnson] recalled:Her hair [was] falling in her face but [she was] very composed … I looked at her. Mrs. Kennedy’s dress was stained with blood. One leg was almost entirely covered with it and her right glove was caked, it was caked with blood – her husband’s blood. Somehow that was one of the most poignant sights – that immaculate woman, exquisitely dressed, and caked in blood.[1]

The drama of that image sticks with me. What it says about Jackie's type? Hard to say; but there is a simmering aggression in the refusal to remove her bloodied clothes which does, on some level, highlight a deep attachment to dark or dangerous aspects. In that moment, the authentic appearance of the blood that had been shed took prescient over any notions of conventional femininity that would shy away from gore. Take from that what you will!
I don't see "simmering aggression" so much as someone who believes in the power of image -- her immediate/reflexive instinct in that convertible car that fateful day with her now dead husband was to cover his bloody/broken body with her own so the public couldn't see (bc images matter). Her sensitivity to images was such that, after his death, she had to have images of Jack's face (photos/paintings) removed from sight in her house. Images were very meaningful/powerful to her.

Nor do I see what she chose to do while in shock "a deep attatchment to dark/dangerous aspects". Let's not forget this was her beloved husband's body/blood, not random 'gore'.

Then again I'm always at a loss when people associate femininity with weakness. If Jackie taught us only one thing it's that femininity and strength are not mutually exclusive. I love that she was called Jack's "one-woman Praetorian Guard" (against the doctors, the political antagonists, the journalists, even against anyone in his own circle who, to her perception, had ill intent). The woman spoke four languages and received the same award her husband gave his military advisors after the Cuban missile crisis.

She was a 'doer' in addition to avid supporter (classic 3). She continued to build memories and monuments in Jack's name after his assassination --> it was all about striving, support & image with her. In case anyone is curious to know more about her, this is a good overview highlighting her 'achiever' nature (note the way she was behind-the-scenes-active/supportive yet was not 'withdrawn'):
 
Occupation after Marriage:
Although Jacqueline Kennedy remarked at her wedding that she wished to write a novel, her marriage suspended her writing ambitions. Nevertheless, as a Senator's spouse she found an outlet in responding to constituent mail, translating articles, drafting her husband's 1956 endorsement statement of Adlai Stevenson, and acting as something like a coordinating editor for his Pulitzer Prize-winning book Profiles In Courage. She made short speeches in Italian, French and Spanish to ethnic constituents during his 1958 re-election campaign.

Presidential Campaign and Inauguration:
Since she was pregnant for most of the 1960 presidential campaign, Jacqueline Kennedy played a limited public role in it; she wrote a column "Campaign Wife," mixing personal stories with Democratic Party policy views on the aged and education that was distributed by the national party; she participated in television and newspaper interviews; she taped campaign radio commercials in foreign languages. Privately, she supplied her husband with numerous literary and historical examples and quotations that he used in his speeches. Jacqueline Kennedy influenced her husband to invite numerous artists in all disciplines to his 1961 inaugural ceremony as a symbol of the new Administration's intended support of the arts. Her appearance in a large pillbox hat for the swearing-in ceremony, however, eclipsed this news and began a popular millinery style.

First Lady (1961, January 20 - 1963, November 22):
Jacqueline Kennedy entered the role of First Lady by declaring that her priorities were her young children and maintaining her family's privacy. Nevertheless, during the weeks before the inauguration, she began her plans to not only redecorate the family quarters of the White House but to historically restore the public rooms. She created a committee of advisors led by Americana expert Henry Dupont, with sub-committees led by experts on painting, furniture and books. By March 1961, Jacqueline Kennedy was scouring government warehouses in search of displaced White House furnishings, and soliciting the nation to donate important historical and artistic items. As part of this effort, she successfully pressed Senator Clint Anderson and the 87th Congress to pass what became Public Law 87286 that would make such donated items the inalienable property of the White House. Since the restoration project was privately funded, she helped to create a White House Historical Association, an entity which was able to raise funds through the sale to the public of a book she conceived, The White House: An Historic Guide. She also successfully pressed for the creation of the federal position of White House Curator to permanently continue the effort of protecting the historical integrity of the mansion. Her legacy of fostering an national interest in historic preservation extended to her own "neighborhood," when she reversed a previous federal plan to destroy the historic Lafayette Square across from the White House and helped to negotiate not only a restoration of old buildings there, but a reasonable construction of new buildings with modern use.

Jacqueline Kennedy also sought to use the White House to "showcase" the arts. She became the most prominent proponent for the establishment of the National Cultural Center in the nation's capital, eventually to be named for her husband. At the White House she hosted performances of opera, ballet, Shakespeare and modern jazz, all performed by American companies. After her meeting with French Minister of Culture Andre Malraux in May of 1961, he made a loan to the U.S. from France of the Louvre Museum's famous Mona Lisa painting, and Jacqueline Kennedy presided over the unveiling. From Malraux, she developed ideas on the eventual creation of a U.S. Department of the Arts and Humanities, an undertaking she discussed with Rhode Island Senator Claiborne Pell and one that she anticipated would emerge with the creation of a presidential arts advisor and advisory board in 1961. The eventual creation of the National Endowment for the Humanities and the Arts achieved her goal, she later reflected.

Contrary to the image of "lovely inconsequence" that her friend, historian Arthur Schlesinger characterized her as feigning, Jacqueline Kennedy had an intense interest in the substantive issues faced by the Administration; she kept this covert, however, believing that public knowledge of her views would distract from the uncontroversial historic and arts projects she adopted. Privately, she was known to provide the President with withering assessments of political figures with whom he was negotiating, whether it was Pentagon brass or the Soviet Politburo. After the Bay of Pigs, Jacqueline Kennedy made a speech in Spanish, in Miami, December 1962, to the brigade of Cuban fighters who had landed in Cuba to carry out the ill-considered operation. Throughout the days of the Cuban Missile Crisis, she remained at the President's side and he kept her informed of each top-secret move that the U.S. and Soviet Union were making; afterwards, in thanks for the emotional support she provided to him, he presented her with one of the same silver calendars commemorating the crisis that he gave to his military advisors who had helped him.

As the fight for civil rights of African-Americans gained momentum, the First Lady illustrated a subtle support for it; when she created a kindergarten in the White House for her daughter and a few select youngsters, it was racially integrated and photographs of the group were publicly released. Jacqueline Kennedy made more international trips than any of her predecessors, both with the President and on her own: France, Austria, England, Greece, Venezuela and Colombia in 1961, India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Italy and Mexico in 1962, Morocco, Italy, Turkey, Greece, France in 1963. On many of these trips, she forged personal friendship with world leaders, including France's Charles DeGaulle, India's Jawaharlal Nehru, Pakistan's Ayub Kahn, England's Harold McMillan, subtly furthering the interests of the President and the U.S. In South American nations, for example, she made speeches in Spanish hailing the promise of the Administration's Peace Corps. Believing that Kennedy's most important accomplishment was his 1963 Nuclear Test Ban Treaty, days after his assassination she penned a remarkable letter to Soviet Premier Nikita Khrushchev, calling on him to remain committed to nuclear arms reduction and urge smaller nations to do likewise.

Often sketching designs for her clothing as First Lady, Jacqueline Kennedy fashion immediately drew international attention; more than any other First Ladies her style was copied by commercial manufacturers and a large segment of young women. While she appeared largely in the media in unauthorized wire service photographs and "paparazzi" snapshots, White House photographs were more frequently issued to the press than ever before and the role of the official in-house photographer was instigated as a result of Jacqueline Kennedy's own interest and instruction. She also made several television appearances, the most prominent being A Tour of the White House with Mrs. John F. Kennedy, aired on CBS on February 14, 1962. It was the first glimpse into her restoration project and the most sustained exposure the nation had to this youthful and unique First Lady. The television special only further fueled media attention on her and she soon became the first First Lady to find herself on the cover of thousands of popular magazines. The first First Lady to also have her own press secretary, her visibility would permanently forge the media interest in the activities of the presidential spouses.

Post-Presidential Life:
As the president's widow in late 1963, Jacqueline Kennedy successfully sought President Lyndon Johnson's support for several measures she considered important to her late husband, including the revitalization of Pennsylvania Avenue. After living in Washington for several months, she moved to New York. Although raising her two young children was her priority, she also focused on the creation of the John F. Kennedy Library and became intricately involved in the architecture and landscaping, as well as the academic direction of the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard University.

From: Jackie Kennedy Biography :: National First Ladies' Library
 

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@Dare, this is beautifully written and positioned! Yes, yes, I'm feeling you are right. Thank you for sharing, this maybe deserves a longer response but I've not the time this morning - it just felt essential to thank you with words too!
 

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Thank you @Dare for you answer. I can follow your typing prcedure very well. I can understand fully that you have some types that you reckognize intuitevely because you have it yourself or someone close to you has.

It's also very helpful for me to see that there are also women experts or trainers whon typed Jackie a five. Let's hope that they both thought that she was a very clever woman, because she really was.

Unfortunately I cannot follow you into the n-fix and tritype discussions. I haven't read anything about it. You're the first person here who proves such in depth knowledge about those aspects of the Enneagram I have knowledge myself that I'm now for the first time considering to take these to me unknown ideas more serious in the future.

Last but not least I thank you for connecting me to Tom Condon. I didn't know about him. I've just watched a short introduction by him on the head types and the five especially. I would love to learn from such an Enneagram trainer myself.

Regarding the four emotionality-core, you mention. What is it that we can observe in Tom Condon what makes clear that he has the four style? I somewhat get that he has a calmness, an observing power and does very well with words that aren't those of the five. But he seems so collected emotionally that I really cannot observe anything what I would describe as an emotional core.


I'd really appreciate when fours might want to explain.
 

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I have watched this beautiful video interview with Meryl Streep who is typed as a 4w5 by Tom Condon. I just saw that he has Kurt Cobain exactly there too. Interesting. To me Meryl Streep and Kurt, they're from two different planets.


The interview is very interesting for other reasons too. Streep in this interview from 1998 is playing a sweet and harmless girl while talking about acting roles for women who are not girls anymore. She looks like she'd belong more to the generation of Jaqueline Kennedy in some of the videos above than to a generation of women that is still wandering the planet alive 20 years later. We all seem to have changed a lot these 20 years.

I actually got a much better understanding of the four over the weekend because when writing and reading about it I realized that I have a friend who is a four who I always thought to be a nine in a bad shape and therefore showing more of a sixish reactivity and belligerent stance.

I looked my mistake up in the Essential Enneagram by David Daniels and Virginia Price because you can find there a very to the point discrimination of all the types with each other:

It says: "Romantics and Mediators can be considerd to be look-alike-types because they are both relationship-oriented, caring and empathic. Both can get lost or absorbed in their circumstances, feel deficient, become self-deprecating, and lose their impetus for action. They differ in that Mediators are oriented toward others and like to blend in and keep life steady in order to feel comfortable and avoid conflict. Romantics, by contrast, are oriented toward themselves, are attached to being special or extraordinary, and readily go to extremes or depths of emotions in order to feel vital or alive." (64)

I also instantly realise how different this results in their respective styles as listeners. Because they're both good listeners. Fours are really not afraid to follow you emotionally when you explain why you were hurt very much in a situation. They know how to accompany you there and intuitively tell you supporting and comforting things. This pseudo-nine friend, the four, she helped me so much when about a year ago I had in a very short time very difficult situations to manage at work, and with a bad therapist. She really helped me to feel. An area where it is very difficult to get on my own because I'd wish so hard I could all resolve it in my 5-head. She came as a very fine support just in a time when I began to try to get into my anger to finally learn to process pain despite all the shame and anxiety I had around it, and still have of course. But I'm doing so well.

With the nines it's totally different. They're no great help in processing anything. They're no natural born processors themselves. ; ) Just like fives. But they're still so lovely and worthy friends to have. They can support you at a different stage. They see what is beautiful and likeable about you. That's a very welcome thing for depressed fives. I had to learn to realise myself in meeting them because they're not able to help you stop talking relentlessly when you're actually in need to find your way through to emotional release, go a level deeper into what is driving your talking, the place where the pain can be found and held and felt. It's interesting that it is said that they are the paradigm of the good counselor in some schools of therapeutic work. David Fauvre says that at one point in the big teacher's meeting they did on Youtube.
 

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But my idea is actually to now continue with the discrimination of the types four and five in The Essential Enneagram by Daniels and Price. Because this is the Why Is Kurt Cobain an Enneagram Five thread in the end, isn't it?

"Types four and five. Romantics and Observers look alike because as wings of each other they share some of the same personality traits. Both can be analytical, introspective, internalized, sensitive, and shy (yet appear superior). Depending of how much their wing influence them, some Romantics will appear more detached and some Observers appear more in touch with their feelings. However, Romantics are the most feeling and emotional type – they want more from others and have difficulties keeping their personal boundaries. In contrast, Observers are the most detached type – they want less, stay more self-contained, and keep clearer personal boundaries." (63)

So it is something about showing and express emotions vs. anxiously withdraw and being not quiet present to others. It's very difficult actually to write about personality styles, indeed.

I have found another video I would like to show here because we have here another self-assessed four in Enneagram teacher David Fauvre. What I instantly realize when watching him is that James Safechuck from Leaving Neverland is also a four or David Fauvre has also grown up in Simi Valley. I think the first is true.


And I realise that maybe just like I see many fours doing it here when they think that Kurt Cobain is a four that I had seen in James Safechuck, David Fauvre, and also Tom Condon all fives first. But now I begin to get into the more subtler areas of the four and five discrimination. I suppose that it makes it difficult for a 5w4 and vice versa to not confuse the other types with one's own because you feel that you can connect to something that your personalities share and you of course think that it is your core type.

Is it possible that especially male fours try to some extent to disguise their emotionality and suppress being overly emotionally expressive, because of fear of being called effeminate?

I'll close with this for tonight.
 

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A very funny thing happened today. After I had studied the four all week I went to a yoga and meditation place for an introduction by the main teacher, it turned out, he's also an Enneagram coach, and a FOUR. He is really somewhat a radiant four. A 4w3 to be more precise. I think I feel that strong urge to "type him "down" immediately because he explained that he was teaching the Enneagram in a very special and never seen way where it wasn't necessary to type people because you could work on every fix so to say because we have them all in a certain way.

I have never seen such an eagerness in proofing one's specialty like in his four expression. He was also in a way elitist. He was clearly not comfortable with himself in a way. On the other hand. Fours have such precious insights into the world's workings from their outsider position. I was very impressed how he explained the pressures of being forced to hold a job down and how you lose your independence in many ways in doing so.

Unfortunately he didn't find a way over all to not treat me like a beginner in yoga and meditation which I really am not and which felt weird.

But I'll get back to this thread's theme. The more I get into the four the less I can possibly see the four in Kurt Cobain. And I begin to see the differences in 4w3 and 4w5 better slowly.

The 4w3 is in any way not very intelligent from a five's point of view. I cannot connect to them at all in my heady style. I intuitively feel that just like with my old flatmate. I'm definitely sure now that she had a 4w3 dominance when I read in Tom Condons website that they can look like sevens. But I think that it's only one of the subtypes that looks so vivacious, maybe the self-pres.

Riso and Hudson have given them the aristocrat title. And the 4w5 they call the bohemian respectively. I didn't find these titles helpful so far. I made a real beginners mistake when I typed a very flamboyant but calm four who dressed like the best dressed bohemian you have ever seen as a bohemian when he was clearly a 4w3 in hindsight.

These 4w3's I have met so far are among the worst listeners I have ever met when met personally. And they have great skill I believe as therapists. But the problem for their clients is for sure their lack of reliability in showing up ( I mean of course not physically but with their awareness.) They seem to be very obsessed with other things. I'm curious what that might be. The book says they're lost in tracking the emotions that are stirred up by their thinking, judging and sensing inner world.

I think that I didn't get the four because I thought that this process was somehow to be seen from the outside. But that seems a very wrong idea.

What I found very interesting is that Condon writes about the 4w3 that their true feelings are hidden. I shared some of my feelings about the evening he had led us through. It was like the teacher was shut down.
 

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I am preparing now for my first qualified argument for the identification of Kurt Cobain with the five rather than the four style.

I am going to begin with excerpts from this interview


I picked it for the main reason that I find it an informative and often very funny interview. And what I find especially nice about it is that I find that Kurt Cobain really is at ease with being interviewed by this young Canadian music journalist. She is a very well informed and also very respectful, non-intrusive interviewer for the most of the time.

I think that is for myself as a five very important because I get stressed myself when I watch others in a relationship when boundaries are constantly violated to provoke reactions or just because of unawareness.

At the same time the video offers one situation where the interviewer is potentially hurting Kurt's boundaries so that we can have an analysis of the way of reaction that Kurt takes and describing it as one typical Ennea strategy.

The last thing before I start is that I would like to say something about my motivations and also the intention from where I would like to do this little Ennea training and research project:
 

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What's my motivation to get more into the Enneagram:

I realise well on the one hand that being obsessed with the Enneagram is just that sort of trap the theory states that fives most likely get in to. On the other hand I am simply good at theorizing and therefore like to do it.

>> Ph.D.

... to be continued. Going for a walk first.
 

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I know very little about the man so I have no opinion on his type except to acknowledge he certainly seems at first glance to be a 4. To help with the question about why people have typed him as a 5: I recall seeing part of an interview once where he described his favorite book, a book he couldn't stop rereading and carried it with him in his pocket. It's Perfume by Patrick Suskind. He described it as being about a guy who traveled far away from people, isolating himself bc he is disgusted by humans and wants to hide and stay away from them to which Cobain said he could relate. That seems 5-ish but the 5 influences that people see in him could be explained by a wing and/or tritype influence. He also mentioned how that book made him feel in the context of him rereading it which is a very 4 thing to do (he seemed to enjoy sitting in the emotion it made him feel). Perhaps he's a 4w5.

Kurt Cobain's Favourite Book & More | Are You Surprised? | Numéro Cinq
I’m a 4w5 and have felt the strongest connection to him since I was 7 years old, the year he passed. I became really enraptured by Kurt and remain so to this day, because I remember feeling as though there actually was someone on the planet that I could relate to, even if he was labeled as “troubled” or “depressive” or “weird.” I was and still am all of those things but, in my own weird 4 way, have and still continue to integrate, accept and love all those parts of myself- after all, to be without an identity in this world truly is a massive fear of 4s, and I think Kurt was no exception to that rule. Thankfully, his legacy persists to this day, hopefully in the way that would satisfy him! A TRUE 4w5!
 

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Kurt was a clear 4w5 period. I'm actually not open to discussion when it comes to this subject. Everything about him screams core 4 and I think the people who came up with core 5 as an option for him are nuts.

Creating songs about how you hate yourself is not typical 5 behavior; 5s don't introject the rejection and abandonment they perceive on the environment this way. 5s detach (this is the more typical defense mechanism of a 5, at least) instead of giving up to a sense of hopelessness and despair based on a defective self-image.

I actually think Kurt is a posterboy for 4w5s. Few people are better examples than he is of this subtype.
 
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