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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Why do you base your life on the group (Fe) when the group is so often wrong?

Don't you think that your private beliefs are better than everyone elses?

Why would you put the group first or equal to yourself?

That being said, I would like to be able to, but...

I am Fi Te when it comes to my J.

I use people for learning, but not about my values. I know my values more than anyone could usually ever possibly understand.

Well, I haven't met one person that understood all of me.

So how could I ever rely on Fe more than Fi?

Do you all understand Fi?

What am I missing?

Harsh criticisms definitely allowed in this case.

Thanks much. :)

As a trade, I offer you this:
 

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I admit it would sometimes be easier not to be so easily influenced by other people's feelings, and sometimes it can indeed go wrong, but why do you feel it is "so often" wrong? At in least in my life the ability to resonate with other people's feeling has helped me to make better decisions, decisions that fit better with my values.
Of course sometimes I feel a bit put upon when nobody seems to consider my feelings while I am bending over backwards to be accomodating, but that usually does not last long.
 

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I think it's not that extreme, to the point of not having any free will or an own opinion. Maybe you didn't have good experiences with ENFJs. But I adimit that that's the downside of Fe, because it watches the inmediate reality of the people and place involved, sees all side of the issues, or negatively the sides that the Fe user wants to see because it brings out the best state of harmony that is perceived as good.

I don't have a great understanding of introverted feeling, more than a judgement of people and their personal situations bases on an inner set of standards, values and expectations in behavior, etc, but I see that it recognizes and sees the authenticity of each people, as they have their own set of standards that must be seen and compared with the dom Fi user. Fe analyzes more and tries to get all the stances and points of view together, so it can be organized and make decisions taking everyone's roles and stances.

But that doesn't mean we are robotic in our use of Fe, that we just absorb all and adapt to it. We also have personal rules and codes of behavior generally built from our family background that may clash with what is seen and we can assert ourselves if we think it's the best to mantain the harmony of the people and situations. It's not all about adapting, but also using strength and courage to challenge those who we see are attempting to harm the delicate interconectedness between people and POV's.

So it's our way of making decisions but we don't dwell rapidly into submission. I think you're missing the importance of setting a strong and set relationship between people, their grounds and circumstances as a decisive and strong factor for making decisions in life. Sure it's important to be independent, but there's also a big importance of your environemnt and how to approach it to its best.
 

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Don't you think that your private beliefs are better than everyone elses?
One reason why people get so caught up and isolated from society is because they value their opinion, their values and beliefs above everyone else's, and if others can't match it, they frown.

This is the worst attitude you can take, unless you want to be alone and miserable most of you're life.

Who's to say who's values are better? To each their own. Debate it and learn to agree to disagree without holding any grudges. Too often in my experience have INFPs been angered over the most trivial of things, causing more damage, not only to themselves but to others around them, that could have simply, rather been, laughed away.

You should never put anybody above or below you, we're all equal. No matter how ignorant someone might be... people have their pros and cons. When I first meet someone I try to understand them before I get them to understand me - that way I'll know what world they're coming from and in which way I could explain myself to resonate with their worldview.

You have to seek to understand before you decide to walk away.

As far as values go. I learn the most about myself when I learn about others. Gives me contrast and a further perspective on where I stand.

As far as groups go, I generally hate groups and stray from them like the plague.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
But that doesn't mean we are robotic in our use of Fe, that we just absorb all and adapt to it. We also have personal rules and codes of behaviorm generally from our family background that may clash with what is seen and we can assert ourselves if we think it's the best to mantain the harmony of the people and situations. It's not all about adapting, but also using strength and courage to challenge those who we see are attempting to harm the delicate interconectedness between people and POV's. .
Who's to say who's values are better? To each their own. Debate it and learn to agree to disagree without holding any grudges. Too often in my experience have INFPs been angered over the most trivial of things, causing more damage, not only to themselves but to others around them, that could have simply, rather been, laughed away..

Its just weird that Fi starts from within, and Fe starts from without. They both just seem wrong lol. If I went more outward though, what if they are wrong and I follow someone off a cliff? Yet, if I don't go outward, I miss the whole purpose of humanity possibly. Its just rough.

So, its not about whos values are right or wrong, as you are saying would be the worst attitude to take, but its more of a lack of faith in either other people or possibly just in general. Am I supposed to be more open to people? People jump off bridges all the time. They all try to gain acceptance and validation for whichever of the disgusting habit they are doing. And so do I.

Perhaps it comes down to what is better for people. Being alone, or working with others, but sometimes I wonder if being a hermit or even just knowing one or two people in your life, could sustain you. Its interesting. Does a Fe user always seek more group consensus? When does it stop? How can you maintain your values when in a group of people that don't share yours?

You should never put anybody above or below you, we're all equal. No matter how ignorant someone might be... people have their pros and cons. When I first meet someone I try to understand them before I get them to understand me - that way I'll know what world they're coming from and in which way I could explain myself to resonate with their worldview..
Yea I agree with this too. Even sick murderers are only doing so because of their need to "express their art" based on how they feel.
Who am I to judge? Its not that I'm judging. I'm really not. I'm just afraid of people's influence over me. How soon until I am also okay with murder, and partaking?

You have to seek to understand before you decide to walk away.

As far as values go. I learn the most about myself when I learn about others. Gives me contrast and a further perspective on where I stand.

As far as groups go, I generally hate groups and stray from them like the plague.
I hear ya, but perhaps face to face conversations are just too much for me to filter right now. I actually lose focus, can't remember my points, and can't think, probably because I just need to work on basic social skills. I am plenty social with some people, but no where near where I'd like to be obviously. I totally agree about contrast. It is an interesting comment you made about groups though. Hmmm
 

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Its just weird that Fi starts from within, and Fe starts from without. They both just seem wrong lol. If I went more outward though, what if they are wrong and I follow someone off a cliff? Yet, if I don't go outward, I miss the whole purpose of humanity possibly. Its just rough.

So, its not about whos values are right or wrong, as you are saying would be the worst attitude to take, but its more of a lack of faith in either other people or possibly just in general. Am I supposed to be more open to people? People jump off bridges all the time. They all try to gain acceptance and validation for whichever of the disgusting habit they are doing. And so do I.
Compare and contrast... if something makes sense, great, but if jumping off a bridge isn't for you, then question & find out why they're doing it.

I would say make as much contrast in you're life as possible, as long as you're not hurting anyone. Rather make as much contrast while making others happy.

Does a Fe user always seek more group consensus? When does it stop? How can you maintain your values when in a group of people that don't share yours?
I seek nothing from others. I act and I respect others for who they are. The only time I'll seek someone's consensus is if I need them to help me with something.

If no one shares the same values, find out what they believe in and why, and explain to them what you value and why. Debate mindfully.
 
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When you, I and everyone speak about values (as traits that award moral excellence), that's not the only thing Fe takes into account, not even Fi in my opinion. It's also about the person's personality, capacities, relationship with other people, their reactions, what they are good and what they are bad at, opinions, ways of thinking, all of that counts too.

And not only people, but also the place you are right now, what is it done in that place, where it is, the things that surround it, that we want to see it all, all the sides, the people and the interaction between them, that is how we approach to conclusions and make decisions (remember that F and T are decision making functions). These decisions are for a desire of harmony and achievement to all parties, and correction and recognition of mistakes for those we think are wrongdoers or who display a bad system of thoughts and judgements, even if the wrongdoer is us, the ENFJs.

As for the original statement of the group being wrong, yes maybe our way of reasoning can and does clash with the others way of reasoning. Depending on the people and situations around them, we decide how do we react in front of this clash of thinking. Possibly we may assert, fight and convince of what is wrong or adapt and see what can I learn from that, how do I apply it into my lifestlye and how to apply it for their sake, while trying to mantain part of our original point of view. I can't give a direct pattern since every ENFJ has a different way of thinking and a different upbringing which can give different opinions.

It would be of great help if you asked this to the ESFJs, maybe they can give us more details about Fe!
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Okay, so the true problem ends up being the opposite of what I've shown here. It is about acceptance.

I agree with everything you've said. I just have recently jumped into a lot of contrasting situations that require a lot more patience and focus on my part.

*shrugs. Just hard to be patient where focusing can't give a quick fix.

Thanks for the comments. .
 

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Neither is worse than the other and both are important.

Lets look at it like this - Fi is responsible for Hitler and Fe is responsible for the entire country that followed him. Which is worse? A man alone cant do anything but without the man, there is no problem. But you cant just get rid of Fi. Everything is always changing and Fi is the thing that keeps society in line. Its the reason for the womens rights movement and anti-slavery movement. Fi is what says "hey, this is stupid." So then what, get rid of Fe? Well we cant really do that either. Without Fe everyone would get together based on what they thought was right and argue constantly with who they thought was wrong. There would be never ending war and no one would ever agree. So whats worse, endless conflict or society falling off a cliff?

Both are equally important and have their advantages and faults.


Edit: both happen anyways but I guess its on a much lesser scale than what it would be without Fi or Fe...
 

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Although I'm an ENFJ, I'm still opinionated and have my own personal values. I do have a strong Fe but that's because I don't always consider my own opinions and values to be correct all the time. I'm open to other people's opinions other than my own because it's my way of learning how society thinks and functions. I might even consider their opinions and values to be right at times. It's good to be self-righteous but only to a certain point. I need to learn from other people in order to grow as a person myself, but at that same time I still value my stance on certain issues.
 

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Although I'm an ENFJ, I'm still opinionated and have my own personal values. I do have a strong Fe but that's because I don't always consider my own opinions and values to be correct all the time. I'm open to other people's opinions other than my own because it's my way of learning how society thinks and functions. I might even consider their opinions and values to be right at times. It's good to be self-righteous but only to a certain point. I need to learn from other people in order to grow as a person myself, but at that same time I still value my stance on certain issues.
Right, everyone has both. Just because someone is Fe dominant does not mean they do not have opinions just as someone who is Fi dominant does not mean that they dont care about others. I care very deeply about other people, just as I expect you to have opinions. Its a matter of dominance not amount.
 

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Why do you base your life on the group (Fe) when the group is so often wrong?

Don't you think that your private beliefs are better than everyone elses?

Why would you put the group first or equal to yourself?

That being said, I would like to be able to, but...

I am Fi Te when it comes to my J.

I use people for learning, but not about my values. I know my values more than anyone could usually ever possibly understand.

Well, I haven't met one person that understood all of me.

So how could I ever rely on Fe more than Fi?

Do you all understand Fi?

What am I missing?

Harsh criticisms definitely allowed in this case.

Thanks much. :)

Personsally, I don't give into the Fe, group mentality. I always think for myself. I still get along in the group, though. I have what I believe on the inside and generally do not share while adhering to the society in which I live. Usually, the external does not violate the internal. When it does, I am forced to do my own thing, or feel like total shit on the inside. Sometimes the later if I believe that my feelings are not as important as the larger picture. I guess I am always weighing things from other people's points of view as well as my own. This may cause me to derive a conclusion and course of action that I do not like, but I can see the value in from my attempt at an objective standpoint.

As for ENFJ's specifically, they get overboard with it, yeah. >.> Though, very often they are the ones defining the group mentality when they are able.
 
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As for ENFJ's specifically, they get overboard with it, yeah. >.> Though, very often they are the ones defining the group mentality when they are able.
Hmmm. Not really. No. I hate being in groups - and have never tried to influence group behaviour until and unless it's expected of me, or if I'm told to do so. What you're describing is an unhealthy extrovert, and it could be any of EXXX types. Not specifically ENFJ, no.
 

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Maybe it's just me, but I have always been under the impression that Fe was more of a tool to use while dealing in social situations...? At least for me, my goal has always been to make other people happy, and to be able to sort of "sense" the little nuances and idiosyncracies of a particular social situation is very useful. It can guide you on how you should act and what the group deems appropriate, which is a good thing if your life is centered completely around other people - which I think a lot of ENFJ's can relate to. I feel that if I can understand the workings of the social circle, I can better understand how to connect to each individual within it.

For me, I can't say that I always follow the group, but I can almost always sort of "know" what the group expects and what it deems socially acceptable. Just because I use my Fe often doesnt mean I am a slave to it.

*edit: Like Jawz said in a related post, the attitude above probably has a lot to do with Ni as well so... maybe thats more where i'm coming from haha :)
 

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Its just weird that Fi starts from within, and Fe starts from without. They both just seem wrong lol. If I went more outward though, what if they are wrong and I follow someone off a cliff? Yet, if I don't go outward, I miss the whole purpose of humanity possibly. Its just rough.
See, I think the difficulty, with understanding Fe and Fi if you are the opposite, is that there are similar pitfalls with both, but the source of each is so so different.

Self-doubt is my biggest obstacle, which is why I tend to rely on my Fe...I should be working towards Developing my Fi in order to be a healthy ENFJ. If there is a decision to be made or a path to be followed, I may have my own ideas (gut instinct) on which way to go, but all it takes is one strong person (usually someone with a strong Fi!!!) to tell me I'm wrong and everything goes topsy turvy, because if this person is quite insistent that they are right and start listing off lots of very objective (ugh!) reasons why they are right then my very subjective reasoning begins to seem quite selfish and immature, I'll follow their lead, all the while waiting for it all to go wrong (because I don't really trust their way, but I trust my own way even less)...if it does go wrong then I get extremely angry and blaming...the person I've followed or am about to follow has no idea why I'm so angry, because they think I've admitted to myself I'm wrong and they are right...whereas what I'm feeling is "I know deep down I'm right, but I don't trust my judgement well enough just yet so I'll dip my toe into their way of doing it and see what happens" The other problem is that sometimes there way is actually right, but I'm constantly on the look out for when its going wrong that sometimes I'm overly cautious and will back out even if its not going wrong but I think its about to go wrong. Oh very complicated I'm sorry!!!

Of course, all of this would be fine if I (and all ENFJ's) could listen to our inner feelings a bit more. INFP's tend to have a very very strong set of values, it almost defines them, sometimes to the point where it becomes unhealthy. ENFJ's are almost the opposite, we have our personal values, but lack the courage of conviction to stand by them sometimes, so we need to strenghthen our faith in our values and sometimes some INFP's need to let go of the faith the have in their values...both I'm sure are equally as tough and seem equally as alien to both types.
 

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If there is a decision to be made or a path to be followed, I may have my own ideas (gut instinct) on which way to go, but all it takes is one strong person (usually someone with a strong Fi!!!) to tell me I'm wrong and everything goes topsy turvy, because if this person is quite insistent that they are right and start listing off lots of very objective (ugh!) reasons why they are right then my very subjective reasoning begins to seem quite selfish and immature, I'll follow their lead, all the while waiting for it all to go wrong (because I don't really trust their way, but I trust my own way even less)...if it does go wrong then I get extremely angry and blaming...the person I've followed or am about to follow has no idea why I'm so angry, because they think I've admitted to myself I'm wrong and they are right...whereas what I'm feeling is "I know deep down I'm right, but I don't trust my judgement well enough just yet so I'll dip my toe into their way of doing it and see what happens" The other problem is that sometimes there way is actually right, but I'm constantly on the look out for when its going wrong that sometimes I'm overly cautious and will back out even if its not going wrong but I think its about to go wrong. Oh very complicated I'm sorry!!!
I could probably thank this post a million times and it would still not be enough to show just how amazingly accurate this is.
 

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I'm not sure if I want to wholeheartedly accept the basic premise of this discussion (that the group is so often wrong), but, for the sake of fun, let's suppose that it is nearly or completely correct.

I would say that the basic way of examining this question needs to be re-examined itself: Rather than being Fe in spite of the flaws of the group, let's suppose that ENFJs may actually be Fe because of the flaws of the group. Though on this forum ENFJ is called giver, I've also seen it referred to as the Teacher as well; both names lend to the idea that ENFJs are about educating or improving the group, even if it might not necessarily be of direct and tangible benefit to themselves.

I think part of the premise and aim of at least some, if not many ENFJs is that yes, group dynamics can, at times, be very unpleasant, misled and many other things, and, rather than, for example, a more ENTJ-like approach of managing that unpleasant situation in a rational and calculating way, given what we have to work with, our approach is more idealistic in that it involves believing that we can help individuals to become their best selves, more responsible members of society, and bring the group to a point where it is something to model one's self after, rather than something to look at as a liability.

Obviously this is oversimplified a little, but I hope that gets the jist of my idea across.
 
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