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Is there necessarily an inverse relationship between EQ and IQ though? I've met people who have certainly been high in both. Also, is there any evidence that ESFJs have average IQ or is that just an observation by you?
I wasn't intentionally implying that, I'm sorry if you thought that's what I meant. It's just based off my observations of the ESFJs that I know (less than 10 of them), which does not represent the whole population.
 

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Apparently, it's a stereotype, and it makes no sense to me. I understand how different personality types have different strengths and weaknesses, but how can you blame a person's level of intelligence on their personality? I think anyone could be a genius; it just depends on how hard they work and their willingness to learn. My mother, brother, and best friend are all ESFJs, and they are all very bright, intelligent people. I also know of an ESFJ who graduated valedictorian in a class of over 400.

Yes, when they get emotional or stressed, they don't really use logic or reasoning, but that's just because they are emotional. They aren't like that on a regular basis. This whole thing just confuses me.
No one is using logic when they're stressed. That's why they're stressed. Stress comes into being when you find yourself in the split of the here and now but wanting to be in the future. And everyone is doing it. The insanity and how tiresome.

A better question would be "why do people judge"?
 

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I don't remember hinting at that. I explained why the stereotype was so prevalent, I didn't justify it.
Stupidity isn't necessarily irrationality. And irrational as some SFs are, intelligence remains a wildly ranged variable.
The bound between irrationality and stupidity sometimes can be very sharp. I think that a mature and healthy ESFJ can be very rational and logical. I think that there could be irrational people from every type, not just from types with the inferior thinking function.
However if the stereotype is linked to that, why are just ESFJs seen in this way and not also the other types with the inferior thinking function?
 

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The bound between irrationality and stupidity sometimes can be very sharp. I think that a mature and healthy ESFJ can be very rational and logical. I think that there could be irrational people from every type, not just from types with the inferior thinking function.
However if the stereotype is linked to that, why are just ESFJs seen in this way and not also the other types with the inferior thinking function?
Of course. There are exceptions to every rule. We're talking in general terms, and my personal experience as well as the description of the type covers that rationality isn't the ESFJ's driving force. My best friend is an ESFJ, and he often preserves his opinions when contemporaneously accepting that their lack of logic, and then admitting that this pretty much defines ignorance.
Because in ESFJ, you have 3 letters that aren't (as much) associated with intelligence. They point to an action-orientated, fun-loving, lively and sociable person. The common weakness in rationality is compensated for by an ESFJs many lovable values, it's not a decisive negative to not belong to the most prestigious type by intellect. A quick mind is only one of many keys to success.
 

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I wasn't intentionally implying that, I'm sorry if you thought that's what I meant. It's just based off my observations of the ESFJs that I know (less than 10 of them), which does not represent the whole population.
Ah, I'm just curious as to what actual studies have shown, as opposed to just observations by people here. Also, are you quite certain that the people you think are ESFJs are actually ESFJs? Have they taken any kind of test or are you just typing them in your head? As I said in my earlier post, I have known quite a few intelligent ESFJs, but that is because I work in a field where almost everyone is highly educated. There are smart people of every type represented in my workplace.

This question is kind of moot anyway. I think in the end, it comes down to the fact that ESFJs (and other SFs) are smart in a way that NTs don't value or appreciate. We can spend all day arguing about it, but I think there are going to be inherent differences in the way we think, and that's fine. In an ideal world, we would learn to work together and combine our different types of intelligences rather than scorn each other.
 

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Well my mom is an ESFJ and she has always been my hero even though I'm likely an NT. I have looked up to her for strength and confidence and doing the right thing
 

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It seems to be that bias against S-and-F-types manifesting.

Really is a shame though--all personalities have valuable things to offer.
 

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Here's my observation.

Almost all the SP replies in this thread have either restated or expanded the premise, or asked additional questions.

The Ns have tried to answer those questions or construct theories.

Perhaps this feeds into the notion that S are "dumb" because they don't try to concoct a theory. They just want to know the answer so they can apply it.
 

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Apparently, it's a stereotype, and it makes no sense to me. I understand how different personality types have different strengths and weaknesses, but how can you blame a person's level of intelligence on their personality? I think anyone could be a genius; it just depends on how hard they work and their willingness to learn. My mother, brother, and best friend are all ESFJs, and they are all very bright, intelligent people. I also know of an ESFJ who graduated valedictorian in a class of over 400.

Yes, when they get emotional or stressed, they don't really use logic or reasoning, but that's just because they are emotional. They aren't like that on a regular basis. This whole thing just confuses me.
on MBTI forums like these, it seems to be the "cool" and "hip" thing to hate on SFJs, particularly (maybe I'm wrong) by many IxTxs. the constant irrational betching and insult throwing is tiring and stupid. for as illogical as we supposedly aren't and you supposedly are, I see quite a reversal of that in reality.

plus society tends to have a very hypocritical bias: it favors logic but acts completely irrational and emotional about it. "OMG LOGIC IS THE WAY TO GO STFU WITH YOUR STUPID WHINY EMOTIONS, ILLOGICAL PERSON! HAHAHAHA COLD HARD LOGIC FTW PWNNNNN". it seems to me that the most irrational people are the most obsessed with being "logical" and hating on others who aren't terrified as they are about being emotionally open, which is not the same as being emotionally crazy.
 

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I think NF and NT people have begun developing biases against SJ's and Sp's because of how the NT's and NF's tend to be minorities and therefore misunderstood and marginalized
really? I NFs and NTs seem quite common here and usually agreed with on things, hardly misunderstood. But I agree there's definitely a bias,
 

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really? I NFs and NTs seem quite common here and usually agreed with on things, hardly misunderstood. But I agree there's definitely a bias,
What I mean is that while growing up, it always seems like NTs and NFs have trouble fitting in a society dominated by SJs and SPs. People tend to think of us as weird. Our intelligence and our lack of interested in many material things makes us have a harder time feeling human. That's what I was referring to
 

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Any type can be smart (socially, street, science... etc.) or even intelligent... just like any type can be stupid and not even have any kind of common sense. It's all about the functions. And my dear, ESFJs use Fe as their first function... for many that is a hill one must go over first order to make logical decisions. They have the same functions that an INTP uses, but it's more or less the order. Fe, Si, Ne, and Ti. First it's emotions and relationship decision making (Fe), then (Si) it's recalling already read information and data that's been stored in that people friendly brain.

Next the ESFJ uses Ne which must be mustered in that haze of emotions (fe) and that erg to make everyone happy, then that data bank of information (Si) you've heard and read from books which will help in conversation. Then they will start using your Ne to try and pick up patterns that they may or may not be able to systemize due to the thick haze of emotions and overflow of proper etiquette according to Family Home Magazine... because categorizing people and things is a no no, it is not love, and is NOT trust.
The poor Ne will lay in the back of the ESFJ's head giving warning and wanting to help... but poor Ne is treated like a dirty word and the ESFJ treats it like it doesn't exist... poor poor Ne... poor poor lonely and neglected Ne, how it was born with a purpose but god forbid it be treated like it was born of evil.

The Ti is the last function and can be used... and sometimes pops out when least expected, usually when things get quiet.

Look ESFJs aren't dumb, leave that to the SFPs...

:wink:
 

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I think ESFJ and ESFP are thought as stupid because they are the opposite of the oh so smart INTP and INTJ.

MINDFUCK!
Funny since INTPs and INTJs are the groups who do the most irrational betching about other types too. the ESFJs (I'm not sure about ESFPs, haven't seen many here yet or noticed them) seem pretty practical.

Not trying to have an SFJ bias, just going by what I've noticed here and on other mbti forums.

Plus logic-obsessed people love to think they're the only smart ones in the room, and anyone who isnt like them is an overly emotionally-driven fool. but they love getting passionate about stuff like politics or video games.


kinda skeptical look gif.jpg

edit: I didn't even realize you the speaker were one of those. I hope that didn't sound snarky and personal. :blushed:

'nother edit for anyone to answer: why is every gif and pic I post tiny? and how do I fix it? :angry:
 

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emotionally-driven fool. but they love getting passionate about stuff like politics or video games.
They like to argue about politics and video-games….and everything else. I doubt you'll find an NT that will tell you how much they find playing Call of Duty an emotionally gratifying experience and makes them feel accepted and loved.
 

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In the end though all the types are needed in society. My analogy is like this. An Idealist king presides. His Rational advisers and generals great strategies to carry out the Idealistic visions in a way that can be effective in both cost and maximized benefit. The Guardians maintain law, order and shared cultural traditions and customs and keep people from being harmfully deviant. They also take care of the how much and how many and how to build and what to build in society which is guided by the vision of the king and the advisers. The Artisans allow us to look at the fun and aesthetic side of life. They add finesse to the work we do and also provide entertainment and enjoyment that can be consumed so as not be overwhelmed with task after task. They show us to sometimes stop building and imagining and just smell the roses for a while
 

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In the end though all the types are needed in society. My analogy is like this. An Idealist king presides. His Rational advisers and generals great strategies to carry out the Idealistic visions in a way that can be effective in both cost and maximized benefit. The Guardians maintain law, order and shared cultural traditions and customs and keep people from being harmfully deviant. They also take care of the how much and how many and how to build and what to build in society which is guided by the vision of the king and the advisers. The Artisans allow us to look at the fun and aesthetic side of life. They add finesse to the work we do and also provide entertainment and enjoyment that can be consumed so as not be overwhelmed with task after task. They show us to sometimes stop building and imagining and just smell the roses for a while

Society doesn't need NTs or NFs at all. Scientists are Artists are options….just look at the pre-Stone Age societies.
 
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