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For what it's worth, let me start by saying that I'm fairly sure I'm xSFJ (most likely ESFJ) myself, so I have no bones to pick with ESFJs. ;-)

Based on observing myself and other people who I'm positive to sure are ESFJs, I would say that ESFJs are clearly among the least intellectual types. That doesn't mean ESFJs are stupid. In fact, if one measures intelligence in an encompassing way (i.e. including EQ), I'd assume most types would rank around the same. But rational thinking is not the strong suit of ESFJs, and if "stupid" refers to an inherent weakness in rational thinking, I'd agree that ESFJs are comparatively (i.e. compared to other types) stupid, based on their cognitive make-up:
- Emotional considerations by nature use up a huge amount of our processing power which cannot be employed in other places (like rational thinking) at the same time.
- ESFJs have an innate difficulty (if not outright inability) to identify, let alone dissasociate from emotions
- ESFJs have a dominant feeling and an inferior thinking function.

I can think of a couple of real life examples (no statistical validity, of course). I've seen presumed ESFJs (including myself) do very well in school and even university but their critical thinking and rational decision-making in real life is usually poor. It's not that these persons couldn't, it's that they don't, unless they make a conscious effort and expend a lot of energy. And if things get emotional, it's much worse. I don't know any other type that uses their brain power more inefficiently in terms of rational thinking and decision-making than ESFJs.

ESFJs are primarily wired for social interaction, not rocket science. That doesn't mean they are inherently unable to do it, but it's not exactly their natural inclination and capability. There are smart and intellectually-minded ESFJs of course, but I bet they are not your run-of-the-mill ESFJ (insofar as such a thing exists in the first place). At any rate, a smart ESFJ would almost surely be significantly smarter by conventional standards if their brain were wired like, say, an INTJ or "even" an ESTJ (they would sacrifice EQ, of course). I'm fairly certain part of the reason for the "stupid" tag actually has some -- operative word "some" -- valid basis. However, much of it might simply come from ignorance (of other people and cognitive functions) and hurt feelings by perceived ESFJs.
 

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Society doesn't need NTs or NFs at all. Scientists are Artists are options….just look at the pre-Stone Age societies.
While I compare that, you try comparing the rate of growth of those societies compared with the rate of growth of a more mixed society
 

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Notice how about 90% of the people on Stormfront is an INTJ? What is your personality type? [MBTI] - Stormfront This is no coincidence that they would score as an INTJ, considering that they get the traits that are generally considered to be a non-sexual turn-on in this day of age. These losers got the INTJ score, because they sought out that label, and to use that label as an excuse to generally pull themselves away from the actual reality that they are the losers, that are inferior in both their intellectual capabilities, as well as the general quality of their own being.

ESFJ is just what they call all of the people who are the "common liberal" who buys what the jew tells them. While they also project their own "jewish domination" onto that ESFJ sexual frustration toy, who they wish to rape for rejecting them. Despite the fact that the "jewish" overmasters are also raping them in the ass, because they have not realized, that in the mental wall that they have created for themselves, generally blocks out who the real "jews" are. Even though the average hater of ESFJ is not a national socialist (they are however often libertarians), it is apparent to me that they are national socialist in their very own hearts. Spiritually at least. That they forget the fact that amongst the ranks of the "Ns" who reside in this land, that there are many ESFJs who are mistyped as well. Though this is something that is not a very original statement though, so I have no comment if it is actually real or not. It just sounds like it is.

I could however just simplify what I say here, as saying those that hate ESFJs are like selfish lovers. They don't really actually care about the ESFJ archetype that they are hating on. They just want to relieve whatever negative feelings they have with society into that archetype (as they are generally used a shorthand for being some sort of "sheeple" type girl, who buys whatever society shits on her face).

I know this sounds a tad disjointed and not a very well thought out reply (because it doesn't actually warrant that, so fuck you grammar), but I hope you people get the very basic spirit of this. As I am not very good with forming intelligent words, for people to understand very well. Also incredibly redundant.
 

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Of course. There are exceptions to every rule. We're talking in general terms, and my personal experience as well as the description of the type covers that rationality isn't the ESFJ's driving force. My best friend is an ESFJ, and he often preserves his opinions when contemporaneously accepting that their lack of logic, and then admitting that this pretty much defines ignorance.
Because in ESFJ, you have 3 letters that aren't (as much) associated with intelligence. They point to an action-orientated, fun-loving, lively and sociable person. The common weakness in rationality is compensated for by an ESFJs many lovable values, it's not a decisive negative to not belong to the most prestigious type by intellect. A quick mind is only one of many keys to success.
But if you reason in these terms, you should admit that every type that does not have the T or the N, since it seems to me that you believe that just these two letters are linked to intelligence, generally, hasn't a genius for intelligence. So there are just few types that tend to be smart while the others have to compensate their lack of intelligence by other characteristics.
I don't think in these terms, I believe that there could be a lot of stupid NTs and a lot of smart SFs. Maybe the percent of NT is a little more high compared to that of SF but that not allows you to say that SFs are generally more stupid than NTs, and that the SFs smart are justexceptions.
 

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But if you reason in these terms, you should admit that every type that does not have the T or the N, since it seems to me that you believe that just these two letters are linked to intelligence, generally, hasn't a genius for intelligence. So there are just few types that tend to be smart while the others have to compensate their lack of intelligence by other characteristics.
I don't think in these terms, I believe that there could be a lot of stupid NTs and a lot of smart SFs. Maybe the percent of NT is a little more high compared to that of SF but that not allows you to say that SFs are generally more stupid than NTs, and that the SFs smart are justexceptions.
You're not fathoming my proportions. It's a rule. A norm. A majority. A trend. A pattern. You could have a genius level SF, but I would expect it more of NTs.
They are more linked to intelligence than the other functions. You can't deny that. That's what makes it the rule and not the exception. SFs are generally more practical, NTs more cerebral. If you're going to argue this, do so with facts. Thinking especially is a far more cerebral function, how can't you see that?
 

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You're not fathoming my proportions. It's a rule. A norm. A majority. A trend. A pattern. You could have a genius level SF, but I would expect it more of NTs.
They are more linked to intelligence than the other functions. You can't deny that. That's what makes it the rule and not the exception. SFs are generally more practical, NTs more cerebral. If you're going to argue this, do so with facts. Thinking especially is a far more cerebral function, how can't you see that?
It's not a norm\rule that NTs are generally smarter than SFs. MTBI says just functions, it doesn't talk about the specific characteristics of every type. And even if a NT has the thinking function as his main function while a SF has thinking as his last function, there could be a lot of dumb NTs and a lot of smart SFs, or on the contrary. There's not a specific rule\norm that could says that.
Maybe you could say that NTs are more ease to be more intelligent because they are more focused on their thinking function, but that not allows you to say the smart SFs are just exceptions!
 

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It's not a norm\rule that NTs are generally smarter than SFs.
Okay, after this I'm done with you. I have a low tolerance for those who ignore what verities contradicts their opinions, while embracing anything to suit their own. You are a testament to the rule.

Maybe you could say that NTs are more ease to be more intelligent because they are more focused on their thinking function, but that not allows you to say the smart SFs are just exceptions!
Uhm, if something is the majority, then what else there is the exception to a rule. Most SFs, the vast majority I'd wager, are action orientated. I'm not arguing that they are unintelligent, I'm arguing that they possess more practical functions, which in turn suggests why they are SEEN as unintelligent. Again, I'm not justifying the stereotype but explaining it's theorizing and acceptance.
 

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I think my ESFJ friend is super intelligent. However sometimes I don't appreciate her style of communication and the fact that she talks about herself all the time. She's simple in her tastes, that doesn't make her stupid. And also being "soft" I think most people think that quality is stupid. I believe sensitivity is necessary to open oneself up to a life of compassion and ability to help others.
 

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Okay, after this I'm done with you. I have a low tolerance for those who ignore what verities contradicts their opinions, while embracing anything to suit their own. You are a testament to the rule.



Uhm, if something is the majority, then what else there is the exception to a rule. Most SFs, the vast majority I'd wager, are action orientated. I'm not arguing that they are unintelligent, I'm arguing that they possess more practical functions, which in turn suggests why they are SEEN as unintelligent. Again, I'm not justifying the stereotype but explaining it's theorizing and acceptance.
I have just said that probably NTs are more ease to be intelligent, but that doesn't mean that the majority of them would be smart.
SFs are not ease to be intelligent almost because they have the thinking function at their last, but that doesn't mean that the majority of ESFJs are dumb and there are just some exceptions of smart ESFJs.
I'm Italian but I don't understand why you are so convict that I'm contradicting myself while I'm not doing it.
 

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Ah, I'm just curious as to what actual studies have shown, as opposed to just observations by people here. Also, are you quite certain that the people you think are ESFJs are actually ESFJs? Have they taken any kind of test or are you just typing them in your head? As I said in my earlier post, I have known quite a few intelligent ESFJs, but that is because I work in a field where almost everyone is highly educated. There are smart people of every type represented in my workplace.
I type them according to their hobbies, their interests and their strengths and weaknesses. You then match it to the MBTI theory, and that's their most likely type. That's how I determine their type, and I suppose that's what you mean by "in my head". I have clarified this twice already, so maybe you aren't paying attention to what I said earlier. I have no data to support because this is based on my experience. Of course, my judgment may not be 100% correct because there's a likelihood that they're are putting on a facade in everyday life.

What makes you think that all the ESFJs that you know represent the entire population of the type? As you said, all the people in your workplace are smart, so your colleagues consists of many other types as well. Have all of them taken the MBTI test personally? "Smartness" is relative. There's street-smarts and book-smarts, for example.


Your argument is equally unproven, because it's also unsupported by data; you're also "typing people in your head", so our argument comes to a stalemate. Just because ESFJs are more suited for medical fields does not mean the colleagues you're referring to are definitely ESFJs, unless all of them have taken the MBTI test themselves.

Therefore, you need to ask yourself the same questions:
Also, are you quite certain that the people you think are ESFJs are actually ESFJs? Have they taken any kind of test or are you just typing them in your head?

That's the problem, none of us have concrete data of the IQ and EQ of all ESFJs, so nobody can come to a conclusion. I suppose it's the same the other way round. I know very well that not all INTJs are well accepted in this society. You're wrong to say that NTs are the majority in here; the NFs are the majority, specifically INFPs. http://personalitycafe.com/enneagram-personality-theory-forum/85323-enneagram-type-mbti-type-compared-statistics.html

This is probably the most annoying ESFJ stereotype. I've seen it perpetuated the most by NT types (especially here on PerCafe, where you guys seem to be the majority) who describe us as close-minded and unable to use logical reasoning. We also tend to be portrayed as gossips, more interested in other people's lives than in higher intellectual pursuits. Like others have pointed out here, it's the people who believe this of all ESFJs who are the dumb ones. I'm an ESFJ who was valedictorian of my 400+ person high school class and have spent most of my academic career in the sciences (not where most people would think to find ESFJs). There are tons of ESFJs in medical school; the ones I know are very smart and just as capable as their other-type classmates. I worked under an ESFJ scientist for many years who was one of the smartest people I've ever known. Yeah, there are dumb ESFJs, but you're going to find some stupid in every type.
It also seems that you're prejudiced against NTs, and you're also generalising about us yourself. No, just because individuals who are NTs say so does not mean that all of us think like that. Just because some ESFJs are gossips does not mean that all people of the same type are. You have a tendency to generalise and stereotype, and that's why I am not able to respect your opinion. That's typism.

This question is kind of moot anyway. I think in the end, it comes down to the fact that ESFJs (and other SFs) are smart in a way that NTs don't value or appreciate. We can spend all day arguing about it, but I think there are going to be inherent differences in the way we think, and that's fine. In an ideal world, we would learn to work together and combine our different types of intelligences rather than scorn each other.
I am not scorning at anyone, so don't jump to conclusion. :rolleyes: You need to stop scorning NTs first before you say that. You aren't appreciating that I came here to defend that not all ESFJs are stupid, are you? Before we can cooperate, you need to dispel your negative opinion towards all NTs. Otherwise, all you're going to think of is "All NTs are jerks who think that ESFJs are stupid."

Most of the ESFJs I have met are of average intelligence and I am in good terms with them. There's one exceptional ESFJ who's quite intelligent with her studies and is very hardworking, but she has very poor EQ. She enjoys bringing me down with snide remarks and occasionally instigates her friends to join her in bashing me without them realising. I think that she has little respect for people who are younger than her. She's friendly with others (except me), but is not a very helpful person.

Most well-balanced ESFJs have good EQ and average IQ. They are not stupid, it's just that they place more importance on emotions and the welfare of others when making decisions.
The person I mentioned is only one example of all ESFJs. Intelligence has nothing to do with MBTI type. It seems like you're taking the opportunity to subtly scorn my type instead, or am I being oversensitive?


Edit: I'm sorry about what I said. It's just that I have had several bad experiences with a few ESFJs picking on me, so the way I phrase it may sound like I was generalising. From what I observed of the few individuals, they are kind, supportive and helpful to others, but judgmental and manipulative towards me (but in a civil way). I know that not all of you are like that.

However, speaking on an individual-to-individual level, I am still not pleased that you're generalising us NT types. Bottom line is: I agree with you that there can be ESFJs who have both high IQ and EQ, but you should learn how to respect us NTs and stop picking on us before you can earn our respect.
I've seen it perpetuated the most by NT types (especially here on PerCafe, where you guys seem to be the majority) who describe us as close-minded and unable to use logical reasoning.
Even though there are only some individuals who are NTs branded ESFJs as stupid, you are putting words into the mouths of other NTs who never said that. Those individuals are the jerks, but not all of us are. I find what you said in that statement very typist, so you need to apologise to us.

Personality Cafe Forum Rules
12. No Discriminatory Remarks
Discriminatory remarks are unacceptable. This includes racism, sexism, offensive remarks about (or against) religion*or gender identity, physical attributes (size, height, etc.), and homophobic remarks. I'd like to take this a step further and coin a new term called typism. We will not tolerate broad generalizations and/or individual attacks that are meant to degrade by type. Joking is acceptable but should a member take offense they should ask that line of joking to stop. If it does not cease at that point, corrective actions will be taken.

Definition typism (adj. n.):

1. A pejorative where a person is denied a service or opportunity based on their personality type.
2. A form of discrimination and an attempt to explain, validate and excuse their negative behavior.
3. Assigning negative or insulting stereotypes based on typology with little to no verification.

* - This refers specifically to insults or degradations against groups or specific members of any religion or non-believers (or those who do not subscribe to any label). This rule does not apply to the ideas of any religion or non-belief, and as such, debating those or even speaking against those ideas is fair game.
 

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Because N and T are generally thought of to be the "intellectual" functions, what IQ tests focus on etc, and people are generally most competent with their dominant and auxiliary functions, hence when neither of those is N or T, they tend to not be very competent in an intellectual sense. I guess it depends on how you would define stupidity, though. Perhaps you could say intelligence is the degree to which you competently utilise your functions overall, regardless of what those functions are, hence an ESFJ could be smart because they're good at using Fe/Si, but if we are to take the general consensus of NT functions predominantly being the indicators of intelligence, then you can understand why SFs would be seen as stupid.
Why ESFJ in particular? I guess because EJ makes them more outspoken and confident that they are right. Couple this with SF, and you have, in theory, someone who doesn't produce very apparently intelligent thoughts, but spouts them off ceaselessly with absolute confidence that they are right, and then you have the classic ideal of a bigoted idiot that everyone loves to hate.

If this doesn't sound like you, feel free to consider yourself an exception to the theoretical typical manifestations and trends I list, rather than bother me with self-righteous indignation.
 

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I have just said that probably NTs are more ease to be intelligent, but that doesn't mean that the majority of them would be smart.
SFs are not ease to be intelligent almost because they have the thinking function at their last, but that doesn't mean that the majority of ESFJs are dumb and there are just some exceptions of smart ESFJs.
I'm Italian but I don't understand why you are so convict that I'm contradicting myself while I'm not doing it.
Uhm, that's very correlative. If it's easier to be intelligent, you most likely will be more intelligent. If everyone had the brain of Einstein, the capability to reach that level of intelligence, most of us would be.

You're stating it as if I said smart ESFJs come once in a blue moon. I'm not. You're getting my proportions wrong; I think the majority of ESFJs are more suited to less cerebral roles, but I'm not saying the extremely vast 99% gargantuan majority follows that rule.

You're confusing stupidity with simply not being intelligent. I'm not saying that ESFJs are particularly dumb, but that they are average, and that the most intelligent people very commonly belong to NT(J) types. Not being the most intelligent doesn't render you stupid.
 

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To me (INFP) ENFJ's are great as long as you don't get into a deep discussion or expect them to create something from their gut. My INTJ husband can't stand them because they refuse to use logic and cling to outdated traditions without understanding why they are even doing them. They can be frustrating...loving, but frustrating.
 

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Uhm, that's very correlative. If it's easier to be intelligent, you most likely will be more intelligent. If everyone had the brain of Einstein, the capability to reach that level of intelligence, most of us would be.

You're stating it as if I said smart ESFJs come once in a blue moon. I'm not. You're getting my proportions wrong; I think the majority of ESFJs are more suited to less cerebral roles, but I'm not saying the extremely vast 99% gargantuan majority follows that rule.

You're confusing stupidity with simply not being intelligent. I'm not saying that ESFJs are particularly dumb, but that they are average, and that the most intelligent people very commonly belong to NT(J) types. Not being the most intelligent doesn't render you stupid.
You know the proverb:" To have the means but not the know-how"? You could have the right attributes but not being aware or interest of them, while others even if don't have thinking that generally could help them could decide to give importance to the characteristics linked to intelligence.
I don't think that the majority of ESFJs are average more than every other types, but that's just my current opinion.
I find your statement "I've done with you. I have a low tolerance for those who ignore what verities contradicts their opinions, while embracing anything to suit their own. You are a testament to the rule." pretty arrogant and judging. Since we have different points of view I think it would be important trying to respect each other belief even if it would be the dumbest thinking of the world, at least before being sure of what the other means.
I think that this aspect too is a sign of intelligence. But maybe you could consider it as just a part of emotional intelligence and so an inferior point to consider.
 

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The person I mentioned is only one example of all ESFJs. Intelligence has nothing to do with MBTI type. It seems like you're taking the opportunity to subtly scorn my type instead, or am I being oversensitive?
Oh thank you! I think the same. It's just what I'm trying to say. @Pyromaniac
 

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Oh thank you! I think the same. It's just what I'm trying to say. @Pyromaniac
Well, actually, IQ shows very strong correlation with N type, and lesser correlations towards I and T. I think J/P is more or less irrelevant.

Of course, you can then start arguing about whether or not IQ properly represents intelligence, and how we define intelligence, but to dismiss things off hand because you don't like the idea of them is just reinforcing the ignorant stereotype they had in the first place, confirming their perceptions.
 

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You know the proverb:" To have the means but not the know-how"? You could have the right attributes but not being aware or interest of them, while others even if don't have thinking that generally could help them could decide to give importance to the characteristics linked to intelligence.
I don't think that the majority of ESFJs are average more than every other types, but that's just my current opinion.
I find your statement "I've done with you. I have a low tolerance for those who ignore what verities contradicts their opinions, while embracing anything to suit their own. You are a testament to the rule." pretty arrogant and judging. Since we have different points of view I think it would be important trying to respect each other belief even if it would be the dumbest thinking of the world, at least before being sure of what the other means.
I think that this aspect too is a sign of intelligence. But maybe you could consider it as just a part of emotional intelligence and so an inferior point to consider.
What? Please rephrase that.
Again, rephrase. "I don't think that the majority of ESFJs are average more than every other types", average more on what, and if intelligence, you're arguing against what A. hasn't been proposed and B. is relative to the view you support.
Learn your English. Arrogance is supporting the image of one's self, not defaming your opposition's, which is what I performed in said quote.
I have enough information to judge that you either cannot comprehend basic principles or deliberately misconstrue them, both of which making you foolish.
I disagree. You do not have a right to ignorance. I can cope with falsities due to lack of information, but you seriously need to sort out your interpretations and stop bandying baseless accusations.

Oh thank you! I think the same. It's just what I'm trying to say. @Pyromaniac
I disagree with Avril. Of course, it isn't a deciding factor at all, but (above average) intelligence is correlative to most NT types.
 

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Umm... What's going on here?
A little debate. Don't worry, I don't want to involve you too in. I just wanted to quote some NT phrases that could explicate what I think, hoping that in that way my belief would be considered a little more seriously.
 
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