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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I am having a hard time understanding something that maybe some 9s can explain. Why don’t 9s feel the need to apologize for negative impacts of tuning out or emotional detachment in a relationship? I don’t understand how you can hold resentment towards another person for not meeting your needs when you are neither making your needs clearly known(being vague to avoid conflict) nor are you working toward any resolution(being immovable)...why is sitting still and being immovable (by choice to avoid conflict) seen as ok, or not realized how damaging that behavior can be. That behavior will just lead to frustration and more conflict, as people don’t usually respond well to being stonewalled. Also, I mean no offense by this post and I know every person acts differently, it’s just confusing that 9s shut down and pull back, then get mad bc they are in a shut down retreated state. Do 9s ponder deep things or do you prefer to just not think about how actions can impact others?
 

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Why don’t 9s feel the need to apologize for negative impacts of tuning out or emotional detachment in a relationship?
Why don’t 1s apologise for having high standards? Why don’t 2s apologise for being manipulative in order to receive love? Why don’t 3s apologise for hiding behind an image of success?

Apology is irrelevant here, not tuning out is the growth path for a 9. To be engaged and deliberate in the moment, to state your needs and welcome conflict. If a 9 is engaged enough to know they need to apoligise, they will be engaged enough for that kind of situation not to occur in the first place. Meanwhile, if a 9 is numbing they are unable to put attention into their neglect. It's about growth, not atonement.

I don’t understand how you can hold resentment towards another person for not meeting your needs when you are neither making your needs clearly known(being vague to avoid conflict) nor are you working toward any resolution(being immovable)...
It's our stress reaction, no one would claim it’s present in the healthy levels but it is automatic. I’ve written about our journey with anger here.

It takes work for a 9 to learn that it’s okay to have needs, it’s okay to speak out without knowing if it will lead to conflict, and that being passive and going along with what other people want isn’t a kindness especially when it leads to resentment the other person will not see coming.

why is sitting still and being immovable (by choice to avoid conflict) seen as ok, or not realized how damaging that behavior can be.
It’s not okay, but it is a stress reaction, and by it’s very nature, is ignored. The 9 stress reaction is to numb, it’s not like a problem is noticed, understood, then ignored. A bad feeling, or sign of discomfort arises so the numbing reaction kicks in, this avoids good and bad and does not pay attention to the problem to determine if avoiding is more damaging than facing it, there’s no triage, it’s just numbed. “I don’t care, whatever you want” can often mean I’m not paying attention to my feelings because I’m angry but don’t feel entitled to anger so I’m shutting down and pretending it doesn't matter. The very nature of numbing means this isn't a conscious process.

That behavior will just lead to frustration and more conflict, as people don’t usually respond well to being stonewalled.
Yes, and like 1s need to learn that imperfection can be beautiful, 2s need to learn that they must give unconditional love and find self love within themselves, or 3s need to learn that their value is in who they are not what they do; 9s need to learn that giving up your needs and going along with others even when you know it’s not what you want is not okay, that you need to remain present with conflict and state your needs.

Also, I mean no offense by this post and I know every person acts differently, it’s just confusing that 9s shut down and pull back, then get mad bc they are in a shut down retreated state.
Yes. And I can feel your frustration so I expect you realise there is nothing you can do to change a 9, the post I linked in may be able to help you understand what their internal experience is though.

Do 9s ponder deep things or do you prefer to just not think about how actions can impact others?
That’s a totally different question. 9s have no greater or lesser tendency for deep introspection, the issue for 9s is indolence, psychologically inertia, a refusal to put your attention where it should be, and a secondary issue of not taking action as it could lead to discomfort.
 
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I am having a hard time understanding something that maybe some 9s can explain. Why don’t 9s feel the need to apologize for negative impacts of tuning out or emotional detachment in a relationship? I don’t understand how you can hold resentment towards another person for not meeting your needs when you are neither making your needs clearly known(being vague to avoid conflict) nor are you working toward any resolution(being immovable)...why is sitting still and being immovable (by choice to avoid conflict) seen as ok, or not realized how damaging that behavior can be. That behavior will just lead to frustration and more conflict, as people don’t usually respond well to being stonewalled. Also, I mean no offense by this post and I know every person acts differently, it’s just confusing that 9s shut down and pull back, then get mad bc they are in a shut down retreated state. Do 9s ponder deep things or do you prefer to just not think about how actions can impact others?
The way you've worded the questions gives me the impression that you're talking about being hurt by a specific person in specific situations. They may be completely oblivious. Fight or flight isn't a usual healthy response when dealing with regular conflict between people, so there's probably more going on. You ask why a person responds a certain way, or thinks it's ok to respond a certain way, but instinctual reactions by definition aren't arrived at by reason. You are fully justified in not understanding, because it doesn't and won't make sense, that's what causes the frustration.

Being a 9, and having gone through much work to get where I am today, it's clear that the person you're speaking of is probably not very self-aware. Inaction is an act of self-preservation. Sounds contradictory, I know, but until I was able to see my own operation that way, I didn't realize that not reacting to a situation had an impact on those around me. Life just happened. Of course, that isn't true, but that was my subconscious narrative. Think of it like living life staring at the shock waves from a rock dropped into a pool, not realizing that you are the rock that disturbed the water's surface.

I'm not saying that I've "arrived", but I can say that at this point in time I'm able to better rely on my instinctual reaction to present situations because I've confronted and identified emotions from the past. Do 9s ponder deep things? I would say that 9s ponder many deep things, they just don't tend to chose themselves as a subject to investigate. Try not to take the resentment and detachment personally. It has probably been there for a very long time. Are you familiar with the Enneagram songs by Sleeping At Last? The one for type nine uses an elephant as the symbol. An elephant has a long memory. The noise/static of stuffed emotions from previous incidents often overwhelms the ability to react properly to conflict in the present. Doing the work of dealing with all of that noise will help them engage more properly in the present.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
The way you've worded the questions gives me the impression that you're talking about being hurt by a specific person in specific situations. They may be completely oblivious. Fight or flight isn't a usual healthy response when dealing with regular conflict between people, so there's probably more going on. You ask why a person responds a certain way, or thinks it's ok to respond a certain way, but instinctual reactions by definition aren't arrived at by reason. You are fully justified in not understanding, because it doesn't and won't make sense, that's what causes the frustration.

Being a 9, and having gone through much work to get where I am today, it's clear that the person you're speaking of is probably not very self-aware. Inaction is an act of self-preservation. Sounds contradictory, I know, but until I was able to see my own operation that way, I didn't realize that not reacting to a situation had an impact on those around me. Life just happened. Of course, that isn't true, but that was my subconscious narrative. Think of it like living life staring at the shock waves from a rock dropped into a pool, not realizing that you are the rock that disturbed the water's surface.

I'm not saying that I've "arrived", but I can say that at this point in time I'm able to better rely on my instinctual reaction to present situations because I've confronted and identified emotions from the past. Do 9s ponder deep things? I would say that 9s ponder many deep things, they just don't tend to chose themselves as a subject to investigate. Try not to take the resentment and detachment personally. It has probably been there for a very long time. Are you familiar with the Enneagram songs by Sleeping At Last? The one for type nine uses an elephant as the symbol. An elephant has a long memory. The noise/static of stuffed emotions from previous incidents often overwhelms the ability to react properly to conflict in the present. Doing the work of dealing with all of that noise will help them engage more properly in the present.
wow, that is beautifully explained and very helpful. The analogy with the pool and rock example is heavy. How did you come to realize that you were the “rock”? Or come to the understanding that inaction does indeed impact others? To your point, my post is indeed about a select person and no matter how many times I’ve tried to explain what the impact of inaction felt like, yet it isn’t accepted as a valid experience
 

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I'm not sure exactly at what point I made that realization but it was after a pity party due to realizing that life hadn't quite turned out the way I expected or really wanted. I made a lot of choices like a bachelors degree and a couple jobs out of college based on an image of what I thought other people expected of me/what would be a "good career" rather than what I actually wanted. The thing is, that was my choice and I still had a level of resentment towards others because of it. I think I'm more of a 9w1 because I of the idealization factor.

I had to realize that it wasn't selfish/wrong to want to live based on what I really wanted to do, especially since my resentment as an affect of my not doing things on my own terms caused more harm than the perceived good of "going along to get along."

If you want to help this person, when you ask them their opinion, give them some time to decide, and try not to assume what they want or push them toward a specific decision. Work with them on setting some long term goals, and let them create a plan of ways to get there. Encourage them to do things that they truly do like to do. Maybe figure out some things they enjoyed as a kid. Ultimately, growth has to be something they want for themselves. Pushing them in a direction of growth when it's not their own idea could be counterproductive. Once they start down a path of self-awareness, you may discover that this person is not exactly who you thought you knew, but they will be a happier and healthier version of themself. Be forewarned also that a 9 that truly knows what they want will not be nearly so compliant or apathetic as a 9 at lower levels. I mean essentially that some people befriend a 9 because of their easygoing nature, and when they finally find a voice it could take some getting used to; for example, they may suddenly let you know that they really don't like a restaurant, even though you've gone there with them for years.

It's all about inertia.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Thank you again for the comments, it’s been very helpful to try and understand the reasoning behind the mechanisms
 

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“I don’t care, whatever you want” can often mean I’m not paying attention to my feelings because I’m angry but don’t feel entitled to anger so I’m shutting down and pretending it doesn't matter. The very nature of numbing means this isn't a conscious process.
Holy biscuits. I haven't come across a post on PerC that has struck me to my core quite like this response. 😳 This section & the bolded specifically caught me off guard & is something I hadn't really realized until I read it. Thank you for sharing your insight.
 

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?? I over-apologize!

If I get upset about something but am not in touch with what exactly made me upset, I am very, very sorry about that. I doubt my own saneness. Surely I should know why I'm upset... Otherwise I shouldn't be upset—but I am. In fact, now the only thing making me upset is that I don't know and that's making you upset. I agree wholeheartedly with your upset-ness because I too want to fix the problem. You deserve to be upset. "I'm sorry" is all I can say. I'm sorry for taking up space. I'm sorry that you have made the choice to be attached to me. Your choice isn't what I would have chosen, knowing that I can be like this. I try not to say "I'm sorry" for who I am. No one would believe that apology (because they would expect a change), and I like to keep it a secret that I dislike myself. Maybe if I never say anything about it, I can keep it a secret from myself too.

Other people get upset because there is a real reason. It's easy to find their reasons, even if they are unknown to them. Their reasons would make me upset too. But I get upset when there is not a reason—at least it seems like that. I can't pinpoint the problem. Therefore I don't deserve to be upset, like the people who actually have a reason. Yet I am. It doesn't make sense...
 

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I am having a hard time understanding something that maybe some 9s can explain. Why don’t 9s feel the need to apologize for negative impacts of tuning out or emotional detachment in a relationship? I don’t understand how you can hold resentment towards another person for not meeting your needs when you are neither making your needs clearly known(being vague to avoid conflict) nor are you working toward any resolution(being immovable)...why is sitting still and being immovable (by choice to avoid conflict) seen as ok, or not realized how damaging that behavior can be. That behavior will just lead to frustration and more conflict, as people don’t usually respond well to being stonewalled. Also, I mean no offense by this post and I know every person acts differently, it’s just confusing that 9s shut down and pull back, then get mad bc they are in a shut down retreated state. Do 9s ponder deep things or do you prefer to just not think about how actions can impact others?
Why would they? You're looking at it from your perspective. I suggest perhaps you need to try and look at it from theirs instead.

To them, this is "normal behavior." They aren't doing it with the intent of hurting anyone. They are doing it because they were somehow wounded as a child and this is the strategy that worked best for them at the time. That's at the root of our types. Each of us was traumatized differently, and each of us found our own response to that trauma, which correlates to one of the 9 types.

It is no different than asking why 1s seek goodness, 2s seek love, 3s seek recognition, 4s seek authenticity, 5s seek knowledge, 6s seek loyalty, 7s seek adventure, and 8s seek justice. As with any type, the healthier they become, the less their unhealthy traits rule them and the more they are able to see how their unchecked behaviors affect others.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
When I say apologize I don’t mean for their mechanism which I’m sure are every subconscious, I More mean around that if a 9 makes themselves small, and goes along to get along then resents others for it.. why is hard to recognize that the box is self imposed and not imposed by others..and therefore the resentment is unjust and should not be directed towards others.
 

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When I say apologize I don’t mean for their mechanism which I’m sure are every subconscious, I More mean around that if a 9 makes themselves small, and goes along to get along then resents others for it.. why is hard to recognize that the box is self imposed and not imposed by others..and therefore the resentment is unjust and should not be directed towards others.
I don't think they realize they are doing that either. They do it because that's what they feel they should do and they don't realize they are resenting the results of their own actions. This is unhealthy 9 behavior, so there's less self-awareness going on.
 

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Thanks Tans.. is there anyway to highlight this to a 9 to make them see that the resentment is being aimed at the wrong place or is that just self awareness that has to happen on its own? I often find when trying to have any type of “difficult” (what I would consider normal) conversation this person just seems to “run” away and not want to have any sort of discussion.. they like to share their side then not listen to any other side..i just don’t see how 9s can get beyond hard times if they aren’t willing to engage in the conflict.
 

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I don't think they realize they are doing that either. They do it because that's what they feel they should do and they don't realize they are resenting the results of their own actions. This is unhealthy 9 behavior, so there's less self-awareness going on.
Thanks Tans.. is there anyway to highlight this to a 9 to make them see that the resentment is being aimed at the wrong place or is that just self awareness that has to happen on its own? I often find when trying to have any type of “difficult” (what I would consider normal) conversation this person just seems to “run” away and not want to have any sort of discussion.. they like to share their side then not listen to any other side..i just don’t see how 9s can get beyond hard times if they aren’t willing to engage in the conflict.
I realize I’m being ridiculous & unfair so I don’t say anything I just keep that shit locked in ALWAYS AND FOREVERRRRRRRrrrer very healthy behavior. The super healthiest.😬


➡ came back to say @Eagles0025 - refer again to what Sonny said up above. That is the most accurate & applicable (for myself) explanation I have ever come across. Especially the part I bolded in my response. Does that not explain it for you? Help you better understand it? Crumb, I’m not sure how to better explain it than that.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
So basically you realize on some level that the behavior is ridiculous and totally unjust to others yet you simply don’t care bc you “finally” decide to do as you wish, with no regard for others.. so you just burry it?
 

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So basically you realize on some level that the behavior is ridiculous and totally unjust to others yet you simply don’t care bc you “finally” decide to do as you wish, with no regard for others.. so you just burry it?
I can’t tell if you’re being a bit passive aggressive here or not. If I’m mistaken, please tell me. I could very well be overthinking the “finally” BECAUSE IT’S WHAT I DO.🥴 I believe you’re triggering anger in me. I think that’s what it is. Of which, ironically given the topic, I don’t feel justified. Because I’ve seen you be thoughtful in this thread & I know you’re just trying to understand. Thus that triggers me to feel shame for feeling anger towards you. Normally I’d ignore the anger & not even mention it, but I’m being completely transparent here in hopes it may help you better understand.

Where I recognize I’m being ridiculous is not expressing my negative emotions. I know I should. I know that ultimately it’s not fair to the other person. However, as mentioned by Sonny & what I bolded, I do not feel entitled to them thus I will ignore my own wants/needs. Because I will always see their side. Which will always trigger guilt in me for having negative feelings. I’m not sure how to explain beyond that. Does resentment build up over time? Yes. Do I know It’s not fair to feel resentment because I made the choice to not express my wants/needs? Yes. If you think I’m running around ignoring & resenting everyone, you’re wrong. For myself, that is the numbing part. I numb out all of it & proceed as normal. It’s the conflict bit you mentioned. Negative emotions & hurt are too much for me to handle. It’s like a vault I really, really do not want to open.You want to just shove that door (of a 9. Not me, specifically. To clarify) open. You have no idea what you are asking.

I am being honest here- the unhealthiness of 9s is not expressing emotions- so again, I’m trying to be vulnerable here & do that for you as an example. I am feeling a bit upset with you right now & how judgemental you are being towards 9s. What is your coping method? Would you like to be criticized for how you handle your weakness when it’s something you’re aware of & trying to work on?

Finally, I feel guilt for even being the slightest bit mean anywhere in here because you seem like a good person who just wants to understand. But you’re poking trigger buttons & that is dangerous territory.
 

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Wow, that is really honest and I appreciate it. To your point I’m just trying to understand. I am a 3 and I see that 3s have similar Unhealthy mechanisms.. we wear a mask to not show our vulnerability and appear competent then we get resentful when we feel like people only love the mask version of ourselves... if all we show is the mask what do we expect.. my point is I was very unhealthy before and didn’t see my own issues but now after a lot of help I’ve realized my own hand in my “box”.... I guess any person or type who attempts to become self aware will realize their own things. I appreciate your openness and I wasn’t trying to trigger anything, and I’m sorry for anything that was insensitive. I just feel Iike as a 3 I’m open to self awareness and improvement and the person of who I speak (not meant to be a 9 generalization) isn’t so eager to perform such inward looking activities.
 

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Wow, that is really honest and I appreciate it. To your point I’m just trying to understand. I am a 3 and I see that 3s have similar Unhealthy mechanisms.. we wear a mask to not show our vulnerability and appear competent then we get resentful when we feel like people only love the mask version of ourselves... if all we show is the mask what do we expect.. my point is I was very unhealthy before and didn’t see my own issues but now after a lot of help I’ve realized my own hand in my “box”.... I guess any person or type who attempts to become self aware will realize their own things. I appreciate your openness and I wasn’t trying to trigger anything, and I’m sorry for anything that was insensitive. I just feel Iike as a 3 I’m open to self awareness and improvement and the person of who I speak (not meant to be a 9 generalization) isn’t so eager to perform such inward looking activities.
It was a lot of words. I’m sorry. I don’t think I know any 3’s, but yes, that does sound a bit similar. You weren’t insensitive, as mentioned I can tell you’re just trying to understand. It just seems a bit like you want to force the issue, and I hope you understand there could be a lot of trauma you don’t realize hiding behind her behavior.😣

In regards to improvement & self-awareness, do you know her MBTI type? Everyone will place different value on it. I know it’s high for myself, but I can say that this is 1 topic (9 issues) I have been very hesitant to approach.

I guess I’d just encourage you to be as safe & encouraging with her as you can. Handle it as gently as you can. Smother her in love (or care if it’s not that kind of relationship) so she feels safe exploring this territory with you.

I went back & reread your post & I can understand why you’d be frustrated. For myself, I can run away from conflict, but when it’s forced on me I don’t have a problem listening. It’s not reasonable of her to not give you a voice. I guess this is where I’d be as gentle as possible in hopes that she’ll slowly let you in & feel safe in conflict resolution. My husband is a 9 too though, so neither of us are confrontational. We really don’t communicate well.:oops:
 

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Thanks Tans.. is there anyway to highlight this to a 9 to make them see that the resentment is being aimed at the wrong place or is that just self awareness that has to happen on its own? I often find when trying to have any type of “difficult” (what I would consider normal) conversation this person just seems to “run” away and not want to have any sort of discussion.. they like to share their side then not listen to any other side..i just don’t see how 9s can get beyond hard times if they aren’t willing to engage in the conflict.
I suspect it will be difficult until they are ready to hear it. Pretty much everyone is like this regardless of type. It's the old: "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink" sort of thing.
 

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Evolution hardwires us for survival. Pain is usually a signal that immediate survival is threatened, so we're wired with fear to avoid it. And we're wired to seek love and belonging, because for early humans, separation from the group was much deadlier.

When the needs of Nines conflict with others, they perceive that they have two basic choices to meet their needs: 1) choose to not comply, which is terrifying, or 2) choose to comply, which is enraging.

As a child, having conflicting needs with my parent was met by immediate physical pain (which conflicted with the instinct for safety) or a complete withdrawal of love (which conflicted with the instinct for belonging to the group). The nervous system evolved to keep us alive, so it's hardwired to prioritize feeling safe above all else. It rewired my nervous system (consider spending a few hours reading about trauma if you haven't already) and conditioned me to associate having needs with my basic needs going unfulfilled, which caused my nervous system to respond as though my survival were in immediate danger. In other words, in order to feel safe I had to choose to give up my control.

And because meeting basic needs is driven by instincts programmed into the nervous system, this process is not going on in the conscious mind. Someone can't consciously stop something that they're not conscious is happening.

Until we encounter models to explain this to us (trauma, Enneagram, etc.) and learn the language to communicate the concepts, we may not know it's going on. Once we do, it still takes time, developing the new-found understanding, and deliberate practice just to identify the process because it's running in the background. That's why you encounter a lot of entry-level advice to just observe without judgment.

Unhealthy Nines feel like they are constantly walking around vulnerable to the threat of having autonomy stripped from them at any moment, because they often don't even realize they have the option of not giving it up in the first place. It can feel like they have as much control over their life as a slave does. If that was your experience of the world, how would that make you feel? Would anger be somewhere in that mix of emotions?

As a child, I had no way to understand this, no language to address it, and no help in deconstructing it. So I have a lifetime of shutting down my needs, especially when they conflict with those of others. It makes me angry at my needs, angry at myself for having needs, angry at others for having needs that conflict with mine because it triggers my automatic response of shutting down my own, and angry that I have no voice. As a child, anger more than any other emotion was met with immediate and harsh physical and emotional pain. Pain triggers survival responses of the nervous system. Having needs means my survival is at stake, so I give up my needs. Giving up my needs makes me angry, and having anger triggers a survival response because my body knows what follows anger. So I stuff the anger down, which makes me more angry...this happens over and over and over again without you noticing until you have an understanding of it, and by that time that pattern of seeing having needs as a choice between fear and anger is burned into deep grooves in our neural pathways. Forming new grooves and making them the default can take months or years, even with the help of a mental health professional. And it certainly won't happen as though they're able to just flip a switch and shut off the coping mechanisms that helped them survive whatever messages and threats they received at a time when they didn't have the understanding or tools to respond in a mature and appropriate way.

So while you may have all the reason in the world to be frustrated that a Nine can't fix what's obvious to you, it's a bit like being frustrated at a fish not being able to describe water. Unfortunately none of us get to clearly see the behind-the-scenes processes that have historically served us well in staying alive, at least not out of the gate. We can't control what we don't realize needs controlling. Until we are presented with a model for understanding what's happening (such as the Enneagram), taking the time to build that understanding, learning how to work with it, building a deliberate and active practice to identify and address what we would otherwise be unaware is happening, and getting support and direction when we need it, change will likely not happen.

I would caution you to be very, very careful in addressing this, because it sounds like you might be considering pushing the issue because you believe they should change (you very well might not be, I can't tell for sure, I just get the feeling you might). An unhealthy or unaware Nine may not be in a place to understand the damage they're doing. Even if they are, they may not be in a place where they can be receptive to the information (our personalities are constructs for us to make sense of our survival mechanisms, and our personalities are identity-level stuff; the nervous system is rather lousy when it comes to distinguishing between threats to our physical self and threats to our conceptual sense of self—consider spending a few hours learning about ego defenses if you haven't already). If you try forcing it on them before they're ready to face it, it can make them interpret it as a threat, and that could shut down any openness to discussion they might have had.

And more than that, trying to force change on someone when they have not made that choice for themselves is a violation of their autonomy. As a Nine, I can tell you there are few transgressions as great as having autonomy taken from me. Please tread carefully and respectfully, and try to have compassion—you know how vulnerable your Type needs make you feel, understand that Nines feel that same vulnerability, just in a different way.
 
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