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Wow. I've just read that we fall in love with our perceptions of people. Doesn't have to mean that they are accurate perceptions either. And that is why you will often hear people say "I thought they were so different...". I have to chew on this one for a while now and see how it all fits.
Right on the money. We fall in love with the vision/perception/ idea of what we think things are, how they should be. For ex: i told someone not long ago that they crushed my ideal of who they were...they initially appeared one way, ended up being another. Maybe this isn't what your saying, although if it is i can relate.
So is it hopeless? Are we reduced to praying for dumb luck, for hoping that the person we've fallen for just happens to be the person we think we've fallen for, even though there's no correlation between the two?

I would suggest not. I suspect you can hone your intuition. Even if you can't, you can take a long time getting to know someone before committing (or even "committing") to them.
 

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So is it hopeless? Are we reduced to praying for dumb luck, for hoping that the person we've fallen for just happens to be the person we think we've fallen for, even though there's no correlation between the two?

I would suggest not. I suspect you can hone your intuition. Even if you can't, you can take a long time getting to know someone before committing (or even "committing") to them.
Lol, hopeless, dumb luck...haha, smiles.
No no no :D Not in that way. I'll explain. The comment was based on someone i didn't know personally, at first. I observed things about them from a distance, without communication or interacting with them in anyway. My perceptions were correct, although my ideal wasn't. Once we formed a friendship, it confirmed everything i knew, and also tainted my vision of what my ideal was. Intuition can't read into the private lives of other people, especially if communication is non-existent .
 
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Lol, hopeless, dumb luck...haha, smiles.
No no no :D Not in that way. I'll explain. The comment was based on someone i didn't know personally, at first. I observed things about them from a distance, without communication or interacting with them in anyway. My perceptions were correct, although my ideal wasn't. Once we formed a friendship, it confirmed everything i knew, and also tainted my vision of what my ideal was. Intuition can't read into the private lives of other people, especially if communication is non-existent .
Be careful with that confirmation bias!
 

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But not all communication is verbal or conscious.
O.k...heh, i don't think i'm making myself clear ; ).....yes i know not all communication is verbal or conscious . Well i didn't want to go into details but ; D...cough * XD...they revealed something very private about themselves that no amount of intuition could have told me unless i knew them personally. Just like i have no idea who you are, or anything about your life. I may get vibes from you through text, or if i saw you, or spoke with you. I didn't do any of these things with this person. I've never them IRL, just virtual contact.
 
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Discussion Starter #46
Right on the money. We fall in love with the vision/perception/ idea of what we think things are, how they should be. For ex: i told someone not long ago that they crushed my ideal of who they were...they initially appeared one way, ended up being another. Maybe this isn't what your saying, although if it is i can relate.
I am not just talking about falling in love with our ideal. I'm talking about our attraction being based upon our own perceptions of the other person. There is only the reality of your perception. Since cognitive functions have a large part to do with how we perceive and process information, I am wondering if it even matters what the other person is like.

I'm still thinking this over for a bit.
 

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I am not just talking about falling in love with our ideal. I'm talking about our attraction being based upon our own perceptions of the other person. There is only the reality of your perception. Since cognitive functions have a large part to do with how we perceive and process information, I am wondering if it even matters what the other person is like.

I'm still thinking this over for a bit.
Good point, yes i wonder too. @pinkrasputin, i can't wait to hear your theory XD...hurry loL.
 
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I am not just talking about falling in love with our ideal. I'm talking about our attraction being based upon our own perceptions of the other person. There is only the reality of your perception. Since cognitive functions have a large part to do with how we perceive and process information, I am wondering if it even matters what the other person is like.

I'm still thinking this over for a bit.
This is where I get stuck in a going nowhere relationship sometimes.. I fall in love with an ideal easily.. and get giddy over it... almost like an addiction to the endorphin rush that happens when you are infatuated with someone..

When I am being forced to look at the limitations/realities of the person or situation it makes me very sad. I begin to have this inner conflict inside of me with my logic telling me to be realistic and my intuition telling me to stick with the feel good ideal that I want so badly to believe in, and fight for, and guide into full manifestation!!!

If I give into my logical understanding of what is possibly more realistic I feel like I've given into another persons perspective and accepted it without a fight.. But if I continue to believe in the potential in someone or the ideal that I fell in love with I can remain happy in that and work towards manifesting/developing it...

Can someone else relate to or explain this to me?

Does this sound like a disorder? Someone said I can be delusional... I tried not to listen to the person who said that because he was emotionally and mentally abusive. He often made me wonder if I was delusional and he was really the only one who could see truth and realistic logic. I now know that he was a manipulative liar though. But that's a whole other topic. Just explaining why I second guess myself a lot.
 

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Discussion Starter #49
This is where I get stuck in a going nowhere relationship sometimes.. I fall in love with an ideal easily.. and get giddy over it... almost like an addiction to the endorphin rush that happens when you are infatuated with someone..

When I am being forced to look at the limitations/realities of the person or situation it makes me very sad. I begin to have this inner conflict inside of me with my logic telling me to be realistic and my intuition telling me to stick with the feel good ideal that I want so badly to believe in, and fight for, and guide into full manifestation!!!

If I give into my logical understanding of what is possibly more realistic I feel like I've given into another persons perspective and accepted it without a fight.. But if I continue to believe in the potential in someone or the ideal that I fell in love with I can remain happy in that and work towards manifesting/developing it...

Can someone else relate to or explain this to me?

Does this sound like a disorder? Someone said I can be delusional... I tried not to listen to the person who said that because he was emotionally and mentally abusive. He often made me wonder if I was delusional and he was really the only one who could see truth and realistic logic. I now know that he was a manipulative liar though. But that's a whole other topic. Just explaining why I second guess myself a lot.
No, I don't think you are more delusional than anyone else. But I do think it's important to separate love from limerence. True love takes time. Also, taking care of yourself and your needs is important. When you are single, it is important to list out qualities you wish for in a mate. Then compare those qualities to the person you are currently dating. It will help you stay "realistic" and not taken away by their perspective. You need to be strong in your own wants and desires. We all have our specific needs.

In regards to loving relationships, here is something I read on relationships and posted it on a thread yesterday:
In addition to specific strengths, virtues, and other admirable qualities that stir up enough mutual admiration to lead to commitment, each partner or spouse brings to the relationship / marriage his own conflicts, sensitivities, and special needs. Significant incompatibilities may be present, which do not manifest themselves until some time after the marriage has begun, which may appear so insidiously that they are hard to recognize as such until both partners are suffering from profound irritation, and which make adjustment and compromise all the more difficult. Perhaps the state of "being in love" is responsible for much of this, the marvelous self-deception that persuades the young man that he has found the girl of his dreams, and the same for the young lady. Dream girls and boys do not exist this side of the Pearly Gates, yet young people in love insist on attributing the most angelic qualities to each other and expecting the same of themselves, a happy delusion that must somehow be worn away if they are ever to create a workable adult human relationship. Where mutual expectations are unrealistic, the letdown is cruel, and disillusion is painful when couples are confronted too abruptly with each other's frailties.
 

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No, I don't think you are more delusional than anyone else. But I do think it's important to separate love from limerence. True love takes time. Also, taking care of yourself and your needs is important. When you are single, it is important to list out qualities you wish for in a mate. Then compare those qualities to the person you are currently dating. It will help you stay "realistic" and not taken away by their perspective. You need to be strong in your own wants and desires. We all have our specific needs.

In regards to loving relationships, here is something I read on relationships and posted it on a thread yesterday:
I feel like it is bad to make a list and better to go with your intuition on these things. One thing I thought was funny relating to this was that I saw a list of traits ENTP's find attractive and you could literally correlate all of those traits to INXJ's so what is it your really finding attractive the traits or the cognitive functions?

Some people I know have these huge lists of qualities they need in a mate. The problem is when they eventually find someone that meets those qualities what do you know you don't line up with their list.
 

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Agree with the above post. I'm looking for traits that can be found in ANY type: energy, positive attitude, being happy, love children, etc. There isn't an MBTI type that tells me that this personality is lethargic or this personality hates children... I truly think that MBTI is probably 30% of the person's true personality, the rest has to do with local, economic, religious, family, etc. and national background. On INFP sites - I'm an INFP - there are those that are 'cup is half-empty' and 'half-full' types, which is another huge potential difference between characters.

I know 3 ENFP females (all lovely ladies). 1 has BIG big career dreams. 1 has never had a job (the oldest of the 3) - wants to be a trophy stay-at-home-wife. 1 loves working with animals at the local shelter. I would MUCH rather hook-up with the first and the 3rd one, but am stuck with the 2nd ironically.
 

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No, I don't think you are more delusional than anyone else. But I do think it's important to separate love from limerence. True love takes time. Also, taking care of yourself and your needs is important. When you are single, it is important to list out qualities you wish for in a mate. Then compare those qualities to the person you are currently dating. It will help you stay "realistic" and not taken away by their perspective. You need to be strong in your own wants and desires. We all have our specific needs.
Thank you for your feedback.

Funny you should mention the list thing. I do that all the time. I make lists for everything. I have a special list of pros and cons of being in a relationship with my SO. I revise it when dynamics change in our relationship.

Also, after my divorce and when I was ready to start dating again I knew I wanted to be wise about who I was going to invest time and emotion into. I made an actual list of traits that were the most important to me (must haves) down to traits that were just bonuses. When I met Chris we spent 3 weeks talking about who we are and what we'd been through and we both did sort of an interview session when we could tell that strong feelings for each other were developing. But because of this technique we both got out of the way quickly weather or not we both possessed the traits that we felt comfortable investing our love into.

That was only the beginning. Neither of us had any idea about some of the things that we are dealing with in each other now. Life happened and circumstances forced changes in our relationship.. but I still know that he possesses the qualities that I'm willing to work to keep. Partly because I've tried to learn to use my head and not just make rash moves based on how I feel.

It's a terribly hard balance. Especially since my head and heart argue a lot.. LOL
 

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Discussion Starter #53
I feel like it is bad to make a list and better to go with your intuition on these things. One thing I thought was funny relating to this was that I saw a list of traits ENTP's find attractive and you could literally correlate all of those traits to INXJ's so what is it your really finding attractive the traits or the cognitive functions?

Some people I know have these huge lists of qualities they need in a mate. The problem is when they eventually find someone that meets those qualities what do you know you don't line up with their list.
My suggestion to write a list was not advice for everyone. There is a reason why I offered that as a suggestion specifically to Heather. It's something I know about us ENFPs and our hyper ability to "take on" another person's perspective. Also, in my training with survivor groups, this is considered an incredibly important exercise. It fosters our "own voice" instead of getting ourselves into trouble seeing only the other person's side. It sets a boundary about our wants and needs. Someone else may not need to do this. But Heather had asked a specific question.

For some people, it might be an important start. That's why it is also important for some to stay on their own for a while to figure out what they want instead of "try everything". Especially if "try everything" gets them into trouble.
 

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For some people, it might be an important start. That's why it is also important for some to stay on their own for a while to figure out what they want instead of "try everything". Especially if "try everything" gets them into trouble.
and it did.. get me in trouble I mean.

I needed to be more proactive in my decisions instead of trusting fate so much. That's why the list helped me make what I still believe was an awesome decision in opening my heart to Chris... He deserved it from me. I wanted to make sure that the pure unconditional, deep, passionate love that I offer my SO was going to be offered to someone who qualified theoretically before I even took the risk of making it actuality.

Most of the time I can think things should be a certain way but in the heat of the moment I don't care if it's not that way just so I can enjoy it. Or I'll justify the fact that it's not the way I thought it should be (when I was using my brain and no emotion was involved) before I got involved. Because once my emotions are involved I can loose sight of what I know is right or logically beneficial. The list helped keep me on that track of what I needed to accept and not accept no matter how much Chris swept me off my feet. LOL

It helped me tremendously to do it that way. I'll not regret my decision to love him with all my heart even if it doesn't work out. Every other guy I've loved (only two others I can honestly say that about) I have regretted giving them my heart.

I'm glad that you advised and personalized this technique for me because it verified that I was doing it in a healthy/logical way... And I'd do it again.
 

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I agree with the point made here. I am quite choosy about romantic relationships as it is. I wouldn't evaluate a potential partner on MBTI. I'd instead go by how I fit with them, and it wouldn't really be an evaluation anyway.

Talked to an INTP recently who bored me and who was too ... something (serious? heavy? negative?) for me to stay interested. Went out with another INTP and had a fantastic time, he got my number and my dates don't usually get it that quickly. I've been speaking with an ENTP who hates debating, or seems to, or for some reason wants to be all tender towards me and hesitant in this way that's very cute because he's also known to be bold and brash and quick to throw a punch in certain circumstances (while also being a big softie, it's fascinating). I've gone on a few dates with an ISTJ who turned out to be a bit off, and who I'm going to ignore now, due to some manipulation on his part. I am waiting to see what sort of person a different ISTJ becomes around me but I'll have a few hours to find out this weekend.

So, it's not like ABCD always means x or y. There's a ton of variation. It's limiting to date based on type - least of all if you're choosy already. I work with the labels as shorthand or as details someone shares with me but they don't influence my choices. How I fit with a person, and where they stand on sources of common ground as far as values and interests, is just way way more important.
 

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I wouldn't evaluate a potential partner on MBTI. I'd instead go by how I fit with them, and it wouldn't really be an evaluation anyway.
Maybe i'm misinterpreting the whole thread, but this seems like a tautology. So you wouldn't evaluate someone on MBTI, but you'd assess the potential for relationship by goodness of fit -- but isn't that > 50% based on the same attributes as MBTI is trying to quantify anyway?*

So i think this is a false dichotomy. I couldn't care less whether my mate wears four letters on her forehead that match mine, but there's a very very high probability that she will at least somewhat match my attributes. Among the strongest of those are what MBTI calls N and F.

Also, how on earth would "go[ing] by how I fit with them" not be an evaluation?
So, it's not like ABCD always means x or y. There's a ton of variation.
Of course. It's not 100% deterministic. No one should expect it to be.

On the other hand, an anecdote about two different INTPs who strike you diffferent ways isn't too meaningful without some understanding of why. Maybe one is so strongly T that he causes conflict, and the other is borderline T/F. Maybe one has learned to compensate and see things from your point of view and will thus make a wonderful mate regardless of type. Or maybe one has learned to suppress traits that will come out 6 months or 5 years later.

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*Snip rambling that i moved to here:


Surely i can't be the only one who finds more affinity for, say, an INFP friend into anime (which i'm not), electronic music (which i'm not, really, much), or Harry Potter (which i'm not) than an SJ friend who listens to the same music and watches the same sporting events as me?

But then digging deeper.... how many SJs like not-quite-mainstream music with introspective lyrics? How many care about sports only when they can see it as a proxy for a narrative of the little guy or the unmet potential taking on the established power? How many spend time on a forum just so they can meet like-minded people?

 

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Maybe i'm misinterpreting the whole thread, but this seems like a tautology. So you wouldn't evaluate someone on MBTI, but you'd assess the potential for relationship by goodness of fit -- but isn't that > 50% based on the same attributes as MBTI is trying to quantify anyway?*

So i think this is a false dichotomy. I couldn't care less whether my mate wears four letters on her forehead that match mine, but there's a very very high probability that she will at least somewhat match my attributes. Among the strongest of those are what MBTI calls N and F.

Also, how on earth would "go[ing] by how I fit with them" not be an evaluation?


Of course. It's not 100% deterministic. No one should expect it to be.

On the other hand, an anecdote about two different INTPs who strike you diffferent ways isn't too meaningful without some understanding of why. Maybe one is so strongly T that he causes conflict, and the other is borderline T/F. Maybe one has learned to compensate and see things from your point of view and will thus make a wonderful mate regardless of type. Or maybe one has learned to suppress traits that will come out 6 months or 5 years later.
I don't evaluate goodness of fit based on MBTI traits. I evaluate that based on how I feel around the person. It's all quite nebulous, based on "vibe" and such.

I fit with lots of people, and I don't try to reverse engineer the reason behind the fitting experience. I mesh with Sensors and iNtuitives, I mesh with introverts and extroverts, I mesh with feelers and thinkers, I mesh with judgers and perceivers (though often clash a bit more often with the J stuff).

A person might tell me their MBTI, and you might even see me on these boards asking people questions based on an experience I have with a certain type (while also realizing the responses I get may or may not apply to the experience), but I don't evaluate relationship partners on MBTI. I don't go "ooh Keirsey says I will clash with x type so forget the fact that this person seems interesting I won't be receptive to them." It's not like that. I'm open to the new experience of various people, and yes personality has a place in whether I fit with them, but it's not the only factor.

...And I don't think I'd knowingly enter a partnership with an ESFP anyway. Less room for the pleasant or sometimes unpleasant pushback of difference if you enter a relationship with your own type - even if it might be easy there's no room to grow. You seem to assume I evaluate for a carbon copy of myself, when that isn't the case.

Speaking to your snipped aside, I prefer a blend of similarity and difference, but it isn't really based on shared interests for me anyway. More just... how I mesh with the person when I'm around them, shared values, plus practical concerns like emotional stability, education and the like.

I say it isn't an evaluation because it doesn't have the "purposeful act" quality that I usually ascribe to the word "evaluation." It IS an evaluation but it isn't so strict or intentional as that. I don't go down a list of traits or tendencies and say yes, no, no, yes, total = fail. That would be ridiculous to me. That's what I meant by evaluation. I don't decline a chance to interact with someone based on presumptions related to type. I open up to the experience and see how it works for me.
 

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]I don't go "ooh Keirsey says I will clash with x type so forget the fact that this person seems interesting I won't be receptive to them."

...I don't go down a list of traits or tendencies and say yes, no, no, yes, total = fail. That would be ridiculous to me. That's what I meant by evaluation. I don't decline a chance to interact with someone based on presumptions related to type.
I think many people in this thread are arguing against a straw man. Who rules out potential partners beforehand based on MBTI type? Who declines opportunities to interact socially based on type? (Well, some strong introverts might not feel comfortable interacting with someone without some assurance of being understood, but i would agree that social aversion to that extent is pathological.)

Oh, wait, except that apparently you do:

...And I don't think I'd knowingly enter a partnership with an ESFP anyway.
Well, that makes you the only person here making statements like this. I'm certainly not saying, "I don't think I'd knowingly enter a partnership with an ESTJ anyway." I'd say, "It would be unlikely for me to find the attributes that make for long-term compatibility in an ESTJ. If i found a wonderful woman who's ESTJ, i would want to make sure that she was capable of seeing the world from both points of view and that no long-term hidden issues would emerge before making a long-term commitment."

Moving on from the issue of ruling out candidates beforehand -- which no one other than you and a bunch of straw men have suggested doing -- i'm still quite convinced that the long-term health of a relationship correlates highly to the personalities involved, and the personalities correlate highly to MB types. Like all correlations less than 100% you can pick anecdotes that don't fit, like the people who pick a few cold days of winter to convince themselves global warming is a hoax.

Experimentally i'm quite sure that if you engineered 10000 INFP-INFP marriages and 10000 INFP-ESTJ marriages, randomizing everything except the sex and MB type of the participants, the former group would have more stable marriages after 10 years. Does anyone disagree?

To say, "I just go with the feel" is totally missing the point. Leaving aside short-term/long term issues (which should give everyone pause), the "feel" is largely a reflection of personality compatibility. Whether you assign MB letters to them or not, they're the same attributes.
 

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To say, "I just go with the feel" is totally missing the point. Leaving aside short-term/long term issues for the moment, the "feel" is largely a reflection of personality compatibility.
I don't really care to engage this sort of conversation with you. This isn't really a debate as you're taking issue with my words rather than with general ideas. I don't care if my argument or perspective seems consistent or logically sound, at all.

As for stability, well, I think it would have to mean marriage between two stable people. I love fun. Speaking practically, it helps that I'm usually the most fun-loving person in a social-relational situation. When I'm paired with someone who loves fun as much as I do, it doesn't always lead to the sort of experience I think would mark a stable marriage. I could just as quickly be proven wrong and find myself blown away by a person I later discover to be an ESFP - and it could or could not lead to any sort of stability. Besides that, you're the one who was speaking for valuing difference over sameness and now you change your argument.

I don't care if you agree with my approach or not. Random internet stranger snarking and nitpicking at the merit of my ideas. Wah.
 

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I say MBTI is a good place to start but to say I won't date someone who is ENFP/INTP/etc doesn't seem like a wise choice. Even within the same type ppl are different so I agreee I won't drop someone just because I found out our types usually dnt go together just seems more like a challenge and one I would happily accept.

lol my two cents
 
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