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Discussion Starter #1
+/- IM elements and valued/unvalued functions

a) Quality
"+" Maximizing the positive. Competence only in the field of positive properties. Avoidance, fear of negative.
"-" Priority to leave [move away from] the negative. Competence in both positive and negative fields.

b) Scale
"+" Close Up, locality, the detail in the limited area of competence.
"-" The general plan, globality, universality.

c) Direction
"+" Inside, into the area of responsibility. Protecting yours.
"-" Outside, capturing of new, influence.

d) Distance
"+" Close psychological distance.
"-" Large psychological distance.


Sensing of forms (-Si): harmony, aesthetics, beauty
Sensing of perceptions (+Si): cosiness, comfort, pleasant sensations
Material space (-Se): strength, power, control
Psychological (virtual) space (+Se): profit, benefit, gain
Intuition of Time (-Ni): destiny, prevision, fatefulness
Dynamics of actions (+Ni): topicality, timeliness, tendencies
Ethical intuition (-Ne): potential, personality traits, understanding, insight
Object intuition (+Ne): alternatives, possibilities, interpretation, guess, obviousness
Logic of learning (-Ti): system, regularity
Logic of management (+Ti): right, rule
Logic of processes (-Te): processes, technologies
Logic of objects (+Te): things, objects
Territorial ethics (-Fi): influence, rapprochement, repulsion
Ethics of understanding (+Fi): sympathy, affection, benevolent relation
Emotions of sensations (-Fe): emotional force, energy boiling, emotions passed over through tactile, taste or other sensor vocabulary (sour expression, sugary voice, he makes me sick...)
Emotions of events (+Fe): play of feelings, absence of sensory component in vocabulary


Verbal (discursive) functions, 1 2 5 6 (or overvalued) belong to clusters of ego and super-Id. They provide the active exchange of information between people. Information on these functions is interesting, and easily discussed. They tend to self-development.

Non-verbal (working, cooperative) functions, 3 4 7 8 - belong to the blocks of super-ego and id. Aspects of these functions are not negotiable, prefer to receive help through action, deeds. Activity is limited to immediate needs and demands of society.


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1) We have an outer world (Extroversion) and an inner world (Introversion). We take in information (Intuition, Sensing) and we make decisions (Feeling, Thinking). This covers all aspects of life.


2) ILEs are interested in technologies (-Te), SEIs like to decorate their homes (-Si) and ILIs like Socionics (=system, -Ti). Thus, it isn't possible to divide the IM elements in this way (see above). So what does +/- IM elements actually mean?

Max negative: -10..........Neither positive nor negative: 0......... Max positive: 10

There are two basic approaches to everything that we do; one either goes all-in (X) or one plays it safe (Y). If a person prefers (or values) X then he (or she) will experience max fun, pleasure... but also max sadness, misery... (10 to 6 and -6 to -10). If a person prefers Y then he will experience the "normal" life (5 to - 5). -1 to -5 will happen much more frequently than -6 to -10, so if he prefers Y then he will be competent in be both the positive and the negative fields. Another way of looking at this is that, to be able to avoid -10, he has to consider -5. For example, SLE actively seeks "action" or confrontation (negative) to "flex his muscles". Then SLE knows who is "bad", which gives him a sense of control and he avoids violence.

Scale, direction and distance logically follow from quality (a -> b, c, d).

X: Very few activities lead to "max fun" (10).
Y: A person is more likely to be indifferent since he has invested less time, energy and prestige.

5 to -5 = objective, realistic
10 to 6 = subjective, optimistic


3) Model A -> Model B

A person never prefers X AND Y, at least not at the same time (and he doesn't choose X or Y, but naturally prefers one or the other). Hence, he will always ignore some aspects of each IM element.

If someone prefers one approach, then he will be interested in discussions that correspond with this preference. For example, ILIs like heated debates (X) while LIIs like friendly debates (Y). Both types use Ti, but in different ways (personal vs impersonal, their logical inconsistencies vs my logical inconsistencies, law vs mathematics...)

He prefers X -> he is interested in X -> he discusses X -> X is a valued (or verbal) function.

Model A claims that SEE and SLE are interested in everything that belongs to Se.

Conclusion: Model A is incomplete.

Do you agree or disagree with this viewpoint? Why?
 

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Discussion Starter #2 (Edited)
4) An accurate model of the psyche must include the objective aspects (-) and the subjective aspects (+) of each IM element.

A) The functions aren't affected by the IM elements.

B) Socionics Model A is the correct eight-function model. MBTI claims that Ti....Fe // Fi....Te or
Ti....Fe // Te....Fi is correct.

Is it F, T, e or i that makes Ti and Fe conscious?

INTJ with +/- functions:

+Ni/-Ne
-Te/+Ti
-Fi/+Fe
+Se/-Si

INTJ with -Fi/+Fe as tertiary functions is obviously incorrect since ENTJ is more social.


C) If -Se is a weak function then +Se is also a weak function, otherwise ESE/SEI or ESI/SEE have Ti and Ne as ego functions.

D) Victor Gulenko:

+Ni = constraining their hot temper, these sociotypes prefer to advance gradually into the future, though they may sharply reject obsolete ideas, criticizing past mistakes. Advancing step by step, they generally believe in the linearity of development, i.e. according to their deep convictions, it is only necessary to remove obstacles, remnants of the past, and immediately this will open endless possibilities for growth. This quadra is not afraid of chaos and upheavals: they know how to conduct their work under conditions of change, risk and confusion.

-Te = business logic of risk and entrepreneurship. For them it is characteristic to reject that which is useless, insignificant, mundane. This aspect is valued as more important than accumulation and rational consumption. Gammas successfully operate in environments of economic scarcity, where in order to survive it is necessary to use something that may appear useless at first glace, but which is present in abundance.

These descriptions correspond with ILI and LIE. ILI: +Ni/?...-Te/?


E) i)
"We had an amazingly wonderful time on our vacation" (+Si).
"We had a nice time on our vacation" (-Si).
"I imagine an amazingly wonderful time on our vacation" (+Ni).
+Si annoys +Ni, but -Si doesn't.

ii) The duality relationship is a fact. ILI and ESE are NOT semi-duals or duals.

ILI

+Ni -Te
-Fe +Si
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-Fi +Se
+Ne -Ti


F) Is -Ne or +Ti a part of ILI's base function?

i)
Isabel Briggs Myers (Gifts Differing): The supremacy of one process unchallenged by the others is essential to the stability of the individual. Each process has its own set of aims and for successful adaptation, as Jung points out, the aims must be "constantly clear and unambiguous". One process needs to govern which way a person moves; it should always be the same process, so that today's move will not be regretted and reversed tomorrow.

Both +Ti and +Ni are subjective IM elements, so they are "rivals". This is analogous to E). Hence, +Ni/-Ne is ILI's base function.

ii)
Inducing: Ne
Theorizing: Ti -> subjective logic (not +/-), "I think a tiger shark is more dangerous than a blue shark"
Deducing: Te
Predicting: Ni

"Science proceeds from facts to laws to theories by a difficult-to-define process called induction. Induction includes pattern-recognition, brainstorming, tinkering, creative guessing and that elusive 'insight'. It is not a process of deductive logic."

“An algorithm may be viewed as controlled logical deduction"

"Deduction is drawing a conclusion from something known or assumed. This is the type of reasoning we use in almost every step in a mathematical argument. For example to solve 2x = 6 for x we divide both sides by 2 to get 2x/2 = 6/2 or x = 3. What we know or assume is that 2x = 6 and that you can divide both sides of an equation by any non-zero number and the equation is still valid. From these two facts we deduce that x = 3."

Socionics, Te -> external activity of objects: events (what, how, where), activity, behavior, algorithms

CognitiveProcesses: "In written or verbal communication, extraverted Thinking helps us easily follow someone else's logic, sequence, or organization. It also helps us notice when something is missing, like when someone says he or she is going to talk about four topics and talks about only three."


Accepting functions, 1 3 5 7 - These function as means of learning about the surrounding world. These are the first functions in the model to receive information from the outside. Their task is to obtain a model of reality, their goal - to understand what is transpiring.

Producing functions, 2 4 6 8 - These function as means of changing the reality. Being located in the model after the accepting functions, producing functions find solutions to the tasks set before them. Thus, they do not merely reflect the reality, as accepting functions do, but generate an altered, imagined picture of the world, which serves as a solution of their tasks

Thus,

LII (mathematician) has -Ti/+Te as base function.
ILI (scientist -> pattern-recognition) has +Ni/-Ne as base function.

ILI

+Ni,-Ne...-Te,+Ti
-Fe,+Fi....+Si,-Se
--------------------
-Fi,+Fe....+Se,-Si
+Ne,-Ni...-Ti,+Te
 

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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
5)
+ J > +P > +J > +P > + J....
More and more optimistic, which would ultimately kill the individual.

-J > -P > -J > -P > -J...
There would not have been any intellectual/technical progress.

ILI: +Ni, +Te..... AND -Ni, -Te.....
If +Ni and -Ni are equally strong, then we wouldn't notice a difference. If +Ni and -Ni aren't equally strong, then we must explain +Te!


6) Model A: +Ni, -Te, +Si, -Fe // -Se, +Fi, -Ne, +Ti

How do we explain duality with this?

Why are ILIs scientists? Why are LIIs mathematicians?

Doesn't ILI use +Ne at all?

+Ni -Ni... -Te +Te... If -Ni is a part of ILI's base function, shouldn't he or she recognize it?

"A. V. Bukalov, speaking at one of the Socionics conferences, and agreeing with the proposed by V. V. Gulenko arrangement of signs of mental functions in the superblock of mental model of TIMs, has commented, however, that the signs of functions in the vital ring should be, in his view, opposite to the signs of the corresponding functions of the mental ring, and should coincide with the signs of functions of the dual TIM. A. V. Bukalov did not forward an explanation of his concept."


7) Model B is correct, but...

i) How do we explain extroversion / introversion? Why does LIE seem more extroverted than LII? -Te /+Ti vs. +Te/-Ti...

ii) Each type has an A-side and a B-side, right? Or is there a better explanation (Hitta)?

iii) Socionics intertype relations chart... is it still valid?

iv) How do the functions interact?


i)
The descriptions of extroversion and introversion are flawed.

Myers-Briggs Foundation (E): I am seen as "outgoing" or as a "people person." I feel comfortable in groups and like working in them. I have a wide range of friends and know lots of people. I sometimes jump too quickly into an activity and don't allow enough time to think it over. Before I start a project, I sometimes forget to stop and get clear on what I want to do and why.

Isn't this more like F vs. T and J vs. P?

More extroverted (->): N -> T -> S -> F ???



model B.jpg
 

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I think you need to clarify the first paragraph of point 2.

Also, do you take X and Y to equate to - and +? I see some problems in what you're saying around this area. I'll read the rest in a bit.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I think you need to clarify the first paragraph of point 2.

Also, do you take X and Y to equate to - and +? I see some problems in what you're saying around this area. I'll read the rest in a bit.
Logic of processes (-Te): processes, technologies

Logic of objects (+Te): things, objects

LSE is more interested in things/objects and LIE is more interested in processes/technologies. This is a logical consequence of the negative aspects of '-' (-1 to -5). BUT this doesn't mean that -Te never deals with things and objects.

Yes, the X/Y approaches equate to +/- IM elements.
 
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