Yes, it is very stupid.
Why in the fuck are ENFPs regarded as the most introverted extraverts?
Seriously, it makes no sense. First of all they're feelers so they have more of a need to connect with people whether it's Fe or Fi, the vast majority of them are enneagram 7, arguably the most extraverted enneagram type, most are either So variant or Sx variant doms. They have ESFP levels of energy and talk just as much, their schtik is that they're random and off the wall but somehow they're supposed to be the most introverted extrovert.
I understand Ne is abstract and not really oriented towards people but rather ideas. But then why can't I say the same about Se? That it's just oriented to the outside world and not necessarily people? I understand ENFPs need alone time but this isn't unique to Ne doms, all extraverts need alone time to some degree.
If anything ENTJ or ESTJ should be the most introverted extravert considering they're Te doms and thinking is impersonal. Many look like introverts, are less excitable, can be cold. They display much more introvert traits than any other extravert. If we go by how extraverted a function is it should go Fe>Se>Ne>Te>Fi>Si>Ni>Ti so where does this idea that ENFPs are the most introverted extravert even come from? It fails from a theoretical standpoint and isn't true in real life either.
I understand Ne is abstract and not really oriented towards people but rather ideas. But then why can't I say the same about Se? That it's just oriented to the outside world and not necessarily people? I understand ENFPs need alone time but this isn't unique to Ne doms, all extraverts need alone time to some degree.
If anything ENTJ or ESTJ should be the most introverted extravert considering they're Te doms and thinking is impersonal. Many look like introverts, are less excitable, can be cold. They display much more introvert traits than any other extravert. If we go by how extraverted a function is it should go Fe>Se>Ne>Te>Fi>Si>Ni>Ti so where does this idea that ENFPs are the most introverted extravert even come from? It fails from a theoretical standpoint and isn't true in real life either.
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Spoken like a true ISTP. Introverted feeling and extraverted feeling don't necessarily yearn for the same thing. Feeling does not automatically equal social.
To be honest I think it is less about how ENFPs are perceived and more about how they internally view themselves. I think I come across as a lot more confident and outgoing than I actually think I am and that's mostly because ENFPs yearn for deep connection thanks to Fi but not a superfluous one. Fe cares a lot more for the average person. So a lot of us don't like social interaction with people other than our close friends. My partner is convinced I'm more ambiverted mostly comparatively 'outgoing' isn't a trait people associate with me, at least once they know me.
I've been trying to do more work on ennaegram. I think I'm 7 sp, which kind of contradicts itself, I don't relate to the hyper energetic and outgoing levels of the 7 but I do relate to the fears and goals of type 7. I wish there was as much out there for ennaegram as there is for MBTI.
To be honest I think it is less about how ENFPs are perceived and more about how they internally view themselves. I think I come across as a lot more confident and outgoing than I actually think I am and that's mostly because ENFPs yearn for deep connection thanks to Fi but not a superfluous one. Fe cares a lot more for the average person. So a lot of us don't like social interaction with people other than our close friends. My partner is convinced I'm more ambiverted mostly comparatively 'outgoing' isn't a trait people associate with me, at least once they know me.
I've been trying to do more work on ennaegram. I think I'm 7 sp, which kind of contradicts itself, I don't relate to the hyper energetic and outgoing levels of the 7 but I do relate to the fears and goals of type 7. I wish there was as much out there for ennaegram as there is for MBTI.
True. I don't even see those enfps as introverts, unless they're mistyped
The reason for the statement is that Ne-dominants tend to do a lot of their extraverting 'inside their heads'. I have an ENFP friend that spends most of his time on his own in his room. Making music, starting projects... stuff like that.
The problem is that the definitions for extravert and introvert are different for MBTI than for common speech. In common speech extravert means going to parties and always having other people around. For MBTI it means "leading with an extraverted function".
This means that an MBTI extravert can be someone who stays at home a lot and is in introvert in the common speech definition.
Honestly: I think we need better words for pretty much everything in personality theory.
The problem is that the definitions for extravert and introvert are different for MBTI than for common speech. In common speech extravert means going to parties and always having other people around. For MBTI it means "leading with an extraverted function".
This means that an MBTI extravert can be someone who stays at home a lot and is in introvert in the common speech definition.
Honestly: I think we need better words for pretty much everything in personality theory.
@Drecon I mean that sounds more like Te and when I use Se I'm not just acting, I'm thinking while doing. I really dont see why people attribute this to just Ne tbh
Well the difference here is that Se is acting whilst Ne isn't. And yeah, maybe you have a point, maybe an ENFP utilises Te when they are working on projects but they still lead with Ne which does not always lead to working on projects.@Drecon I mean that sounds more like Te and when I use Se I'm not just acting, I'm thinking while doing. I really dont see why people attribute this to just Ne tbh
@Falling Foxes I still don't see the difference. If I'm introspecting while acting then that's introverting. Acting in and of itself is not extraverting. Or else you can be an extravert without even needing or wanting to talk to people. Interacting with people would be extraverting. Also isn't working on projects and stuff as was mentioned a physical activity? And like Se don't you need to act in order to use Ne? Whether it be talking ideas out loud or exploring possibilities?
"Introverted extrovert" purely from typological perspective is meaningless - it cancels out. And the idea that certain extroverted functions are "more extroverted" has absolutely no use for anything.
The fact that words have different meanings in the theory than in the colloquial sense is not an excuse. Differentiating between (situational) sociability and (habitual) function attitude is not that difficult. If it is, introverted ENFPs might just as well type as INFPs.
If the meaning is to - by "introverted extrovert" or "extroverted introvert" - explain that one isn't clearly one or the other, the word "ambivert" exists.
The fact that words have different meanings in the theory than in the colloquial sense is not an excuse. Differentiating between (situational) sociability and (habitual) function attitude is not that difficult. If it is, introverted ENFPs might just as well type as INFPs.
If the meaning is to - by "introverted extrovert" or "extroverted introvert" - explain that one isn't clearly one or the other, the word "ambivert" exists.
I think I confused the thread with the beginning of my post. My main point was that extrovert and introvert mean something different when talking about MBTI than when talking to random people on the street.
The point is the contradiction is not whether Ne is an extraverted function but the contradiction between the definitions of extravert in MBTI and extravert in the social sense. MBTI extraverts lead with extraverted functions however too many tests rely on deciphering if you are more social extravert as opposed to an extraverted function dom.
What you say is right, we do say things outloud or explore the possibilities in some way but that doesn't always require another person to be present. Ne doesn't always need people to breathe (I suppose it's the same for all extraverted functions). But the point is more often than not you could just give a Ne-dom access to the internet or various tools and supplies in a room alone and they will be able to let their Ne run wild which is what makes us appear introverted.
What you say is right, we do say things outloud or explore the possibilities in some way but that doesn't always require another person to be present. Ne doesn't always need people to breathe (I suppose it's the same for all extraverted functions). But the point is more often than not you could just give a Ne-dom access to the internet or various tools and supplies in a room alone and they will be able to let their Ne run wild which is what makes us appear introverted.
Again, could say the same of Se users and Te users
don't be a haterSeriously, it makes no sense. First of all they're feelers so they have more of a need to connect with people whether it's Fe or Fi, the vast majority of them are enneagram 7, arguably the most extraverted enneagram type, most are either So variant or Sx variant doms. They have ESFP levels of energy and talk just as much, their schtik is that they're random and off the wall but somehow they're supposed to be the most introverted extrovert.
I understand Ne is abstract and not really oriented towards people but rather ideas. But then why can't I say the same about Se? That it's just oriented to the outside world and not necessarily people? I understand ENFPs need alone time but this isn't unique to Ne doms, all extraverts need alone time to some degree.
If anything ENTJ or ESTJ should be the most introverted extravert considering they're Te doms and thinking is impersonal. Many look like introverts, are less excitable, can be cold. They display much more introvert traits than any other extravert. If we go by how extraverted a function is it should go Fe>Se>Ne>Te>Fi>Si>Ni>Ti so where does this idea that ENFPs are the most introverted extravert even come from? It fails from a theoretical standpoint and isn't true in real life either.
only a NF could love a NT
it's NF's that keep the NT's from taking over the world and enslaving all ST's
"why in the fuck" are you so angry about it? calm down.
So really, in conclusion, Fe-doms are the only true 'extraverts'.Again, could say the same of Se users and Te users
True. In fact it goes for Fe-users too sometimes.Again, could say the same of Se users and Te users
I guess Ne-users are most commonly mistyped as introverts, compared to the other types, but that's just a statistical thing, not a truth about the type as a whole.
I agree that it would be better to forget the whole thing, although on the internet, that's easier said than done. There's millions of people interested in MBTI, socionics and stuff like that, all putting their own theories out there.
I'm not, a lot of stuff said about types just makes no sense
@Aluminum Frost
i think the issue here is that extroversion in the sense of MBTI is not meant in a social sense...
extroversion just means being focused on things in the outer world externally
introversion means being focused on things detached from the outer world and being focused internally
also extroversion = objectivity where as introversion = subjectivity
they don't really have much to do with being social which is why you can kind of have shy extroverts in MBTI and outgoing introverts. it's not about how social they are it's about where they are directing their focus
now when you are focused on the outside world predominantly your chances of coming across social is heavily increased but not necessarily guaranteed & vice versa for introverts
i think the issue here is that extroversion in the sense of MBTI is not meant in a social sense...
extroversion just means being focused on things in the outer world externally
introversion means being focused on things detached from the outer world and being focused internally
also extroversion = objectivity where as introversion = subjectivity
they don't really have much to do with being social which is why you can kind of have shy extroverts in MBTI and outgoing introverts. it's not about how social they are it's about where they are directing their focus
now when you are focused on the outside world predominantly your chances of coming across social is heavily increased but not necessarily guaranteed & vice versa for introverts
I've found that a lot of extroverts identify as introverts for varying reasons. I look at them and based on typing see a very obvious extrovert (in the MBTI sense). I think every person needs some degree of alone time and only a very unhealthy extrovert won't recognize this. And then once someone recognizes that they need some alone time, they proclaim themselves to be an introvert (meanwhile, I'm fighting the urge to laugh).they don't really have much to do with being social which is why you can kind of have shy extroverts in MBTI and outgoing introverts.
But as a few people already pointed out, having an extroverted function in the lead doesn't mean it has to be directed at people. A Te orders their environment and focuses on goals. An Se can go off on a long solo hiking trip. An Ne can climb on the internet. An Fe be contented in staying at home and only spending time with their immediate family. Extroverting in the traditional sense is more often than not a developed skill and not necessarily a born preference.
It really doesn't make sense since most of the ENFP's I've met can't shut up but it's rather that they are more "internal" so therefore more "introverted"? The Ne-Fi combination tends to be soul-searching and self-referential.
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