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this rant had absolutely nothing to with what i said....i dont know if it was intended to or what....
shrugs

I'm just tired of being told to empathize with incels. And yeah--I get that you aren't necessarily saying that. They need to empathize with other people, themselves--especially with people of the gender they allegedly want love from (if I understood you right).

There are lots of people who want love. I really don't see how demanding sex makes sense--and why don't they just have sex with a prostitute then, anyway. That's apparently some kind of great privilege women have, right? That some men want sex so much they might pay them to have sex with them? I mean, if that's not love I don't know what is.
 

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shrugs

I'm just tired of being told to empathize with incels. And yeah--I get that you aren't necessarily saying that. They need to empathize with other people, themselves--especially with people of the gender they allegedly want love from (if I understood you right).

There are lots of people who want love. I really don't see how demanding sex makes sense--and why don't they just have sex with a prostitute then, anyway. That's apparently some kind of great privilege women have, right? That some men want sex so much they might pay them to have sex with them? I mean, if that's not love I don't know what is.
i dont understand what youre saying

i said what they want is love and think sex is the answer... therefore they will demand sex thinking that is love... because the need for love is human nature and rejection causes physical pain and we are living in ever growing isolationist and less empathetic times. its not that you have to feel sorry for men who dont have sex. those are just the facts of reality

i mean you can have sex with different women for a while and not pay them anything if the sex is good but eventually, yes, you probably have to pay if you want to keep having sex with a specific woman...but im awful at dating so i dont understand anything....

"I mean, if that's not love I don't know what is." i dont know what this means, i assume its sarcasm but i dont understand how it fits into what youre trying to say, which i dont really get yet
 

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i dont understand what youre saying

i said what they want is love and think sex is the answer... therefore they will demand sex thinking that is love... because the need for love is human nature and rejection causes physical pain and we are living in ever growing isolationist and less empathetic times. its not that you have to feel sorry for men who dont have sex. those are just the facts of reality

i mean you can have sex with different women for a while and not pay them anything if the sex is good but eventually, yes, you probably have to pay if you want to keep having sex with a specific woman...but im awful at dating so i dont understand anything....

"I mean, if that's not love I don't know what is." i dont know what this means, i assume its sarcasm but i dont understand how it fits into what youre trying to say, which i dont really get yet
Why would they think sex is the same thing as love? You can't buy love but you can buy sex. You can't force someone to love you either. And even if they did think sex was love, it doesn't excuse their behavior--especially violent behavior such as shooting up yoga studio.

It is understandable that if someone believes that demanding sex has anything to do with love, that yes--they probably would end up having to pay someone to have sex with them, because most people who also want love (or to love) feel disrespected by that type of behavior.

I don't have a problem feeling sorry for men who don't have sex when they would prefer to. No one likes sexual frustration.

I do have a problem with men who demand sex, commit violence, and spread hatred against those who they supposedly "want love" from. Empathizing with them doesn't fix that behavior--it encourages it. Some people might want to believe that love and empathy can solve anything, but it is not reality--people have to want to make better choices.

For many people, empathy can help them learn to empathize. But if someone is going to choose hate, rather than it just being ignorance, then it is up to them to choose not to hate. No one can do it for them.
 

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Why would they think sex is the same thing as love? You can't buy love but you can buy sex. You can't force someone to love you either. And even if they did think sex was love, it doesn't excuse their behavior--especially violent behavior such as shooting up yoga studio.

It is understandable that if someone believes that demanding sex has anything to do with love, that yes--they probably would end up having to pay someone to have sex with them, because most people who also want love (or to love) feel disrespected by that type of behavior.

I don't have a problem feeling sorry for men who don't have sex when they would prefer to. No one likes sexual frustration.

I do have a problem with men who demand sex, commit violence, and spread hatred against those who they supposedly "want love" from. Empathizing with them doesn't fix that behavior--it encourages it. Some people might want to believe that love and empathy can solve anything, but it is not reality--people have to want to make better choices.
i didnt excuse their behavior, im explaining why it happens. because we live in a highly sexualized society that says "if you dont have sex youre an incel and something is wrong with you" instead of letting people know you dont need sex for self worth or to prove youre worthy of love and acceptance into society. if you really care about the shootings you would spread more education on the topic of self love, instead of equating the reason everyone who shoots people is just because they couldnt have sex.

if men dont get female love by buying it then how do they get love? 🤔

theres billions of women in the world. i dont feel sorry for them. just follow the formula. to have sex with women you just need money, or social status or learn how to manipulate their minds into thinking youre the kind of guy they like by memorizing the right words and dont say the wrong ones... its very simple

"I do have a problem with men who demand sex, commit violence, and spread hatred against those who they supposedly "want love" from. Empathizing with them doesn't fix that behavior--it encourages it. Some people might want to believe that love and empathy can solve anything, but it is not reality--people have to want to make better choices."
how can they do this without teaching those men about love and empathy? its not 'tell them what they are doing is okay', but 'teach them the okay way to do it'

unless you have a better solution?
 

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i didnt excuse their behavior, im explaining why it happens. because we live in a highly sexualized society that says "if you dont have sex youre an incel and something is wrong with you" instead of letting people know you dont need sex for self worth or to prove youre worthy of love and acceptance into society. if you really care about the shootings you would spread more education on the topic of self love, instead of equating the reason everyone who shoots people is just because they couldnt have sex.
I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but I do not only think it is an issue of self-love, but also loving others.

How am I supposed to counter sexist hate when apparently I am not even rational enough to be worthy of listening to, according to sexist propaganda.


if men dont get female love by buying it then how do they get love? 🤔
The same way women get love--by luck.

theres billions of women in the world. i dont feel sorry for them. just follow the formula. to have sex with women you just need money, or social status or learn how to manipulate their minds into thinking youre the kind of guy they like by memorizing the right words and dont say the wrong ones... its very simple

how can they do this without teaching those men about love and empathy? its not 'tell them what they are doing is okay', but 'teach them the okay way to do it'

unless you have a better solution?
How are women supposed to teach men who are convinced of their inferiority, and who hate them, anything? Men who view them as sexual objects?

You are saying the incels believe those they view as brainless sexual objects or immoral gold diggers should be their teachers?

The okay way to do it is to accept the humanity of the other person, to make friends who are female, and to see who would be compatible.

I have explained these things to incels plenty, and none of them listens to me. They do not believe women can teach them--they listen to sexist red pill men instead. I do believe the ones who can get out of that community should, and they should make female friends to try to de-program themselves from the propaganda they consumed.
 

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shrugs

I'm just tired of being told to empathize with incels. And yeah--I get that you aren't necessarily saying that. They need to empathize with other people, themselves--especially with people of the gender they allegedly want love from (if I understood you right).

There are lots of people who want love. I really don't see how demanding sex makes sense--and why don't they just have sex with a prostitute then, anyway. That's apparently some kind of great privilege women have, right? That some men want sex so much they might pay them to have sex with them? I mean, if that's not love I don't know what is.
Most incels just want to be desired and loved, but they find it difficult to admit this to themselves, let alone someone else. They are well aware that prostitution is an option if they want to get laid - but to pay someone to have sex with them would only reinforce their sense of inadequacy. Telling an incel to go see a prostitute is much like telling someone who is lonely to go see a therapist. It won't solve the fundamental problem they have.

The reason incels obsess over sex is that they want to feel physically desirable, and frequent sexual activity is concrete evidence that someone else finds you attractive. At a subconscious level, chronic lack of sexual contact awakens a man's existential fear that he'll be unable to reproduce, which is a very big deal and shouldn't be mocked.

I should clarify that I don't think that anyone has a "right to sex", because such a right imposes a duty upon someone else to meet it. Nonetheless, incels use the same reasoning to argue for a right to sex that feminists do for a right to free contraceptive pills and abortions.

Tbh, I think the main reason lefty activists hate the incel community so much is that it exposes the shallowness of their rhetoric about equality.
 
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Most incels just want to be desired and loved, but they find it difficult to admit this to themselves, let alone someone else. They are well aware that prostitution is an option if they want to get laid - but to pay someone to have sex with them would only reinforce their sense of inadequacy. Telling an incel to go see a prostitute is much like telling someone who is lonely to go see a therapist. It won't solve the fundamental problem they have.

The reason incels obsess over sex is that they don't feel physically desirable, and frequent sexual activity is concrete evidence that someone else finds you attractive. At a subconscious level, chronic lack of sexual contact awakens a man's existential fear that he'll be unable to reproduce, which is a very big deal.

I should clarify that I don't think that anyone has a "right to sex", because such a right imposes a duty upon someone else to meet it. Nonetheless, incels use the same reasoning to argue for a right to sex that feminists do for a right to free contraceptive pills and abortions, and I dislike their hypocrisy.
I don't actually think incels should go see prostitutes--I was just saying that to show the absurdity of conflating sex with love. I do think it would be helpful for some of them to see a therapist though. And I believe that there should be sex therapists available for people who have been so isolated that they are having trouble developing social skills, since this society is increasingly isolated.

I don't agree that sexual activity means someone finds you attractive--people can have sex with fleshlight and other objects, even though they do not find them attractive.

I think the reason why some people advocate for free birth control is because it's a reasonable way to help prevent unintended pregnancies, not out of some desire for free birth control. I am sure there are many feminists and other people who can afford contraceptives just fine, but consider that not everyone can and the people who cannot might be the ones who are least prepared to support a family.

The idea that someone has a right to force another person to have intimate physical contact and risk exposure to diseases and pregnancy is not comparable with the idea that contraceptives should be available for anyone. The motivations are completely different as is the rationale.
 

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I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but I do not only think it is an issue of self-love, but also loving others.

How am I supposed to counter sexist hate when apparently I am not even rational enough to be worthy of listening to, according to sexist propaganda.




The same way women get love--by luck.



How are women supposed to teach men who are convinced of their inferiority, and who hate them, anything? Men who view them as sexual objects?

You are saying the incels believe those they view as brainless sexual objects or immoral gold diggers should be their teachers?

The okay way to do it is to accept the humanity of the other person, to make friends who are female, and to see who would be compatible.

I have explained these things to incels plenty, and none of them listens to me. They do not believe women can teach them--they listen to sexist red pill men instead. I do believe the ones who can get out of that community should, and they should make female friends to try to de-program themselves from the propaganda they consumed.
Yeah, but you can’t love others without loving yourself. So it has to start somewhere

Well, to sum up what you said. I don’t think it’s only womens jobs to educate men but society as a whole. I think we can all agree that with urbanisation, there’s has been a general shift towards isolation from each other and everyone is more lonely. So it’s up to everyone to be a bit more compassionate....

For example talking about this topic, you keep using the word “incel” that is the same as me starting a discussion about women by calling them “b*****s and gold diggers”. You can’t expect people to listen to anything you say after that.

I don’t know if you’re a feminist or anything so don’t take this the wrong way, but women are PHYSICALLY inferior to men 98% of the time. That doesn’t mean looks. I mean bigger, faster, stronger. Men created a world where women can be more educated and make more money and have freedom but the actual practical sense women are inferior. When it comes to logic. It’s not that men or women are less logical. But because the desires of most men and women are different, what is logical for men and women is different.

For example it’s logical for a man to want as much sex with as many people as possible but it is not logical for most women to have as much sex as possible. I mean, not to me, I think everyone should bang as much as they can. But there are social stigmas, risk of pregnancy, and the decline of fertility in women earlier if they want children that makes it ‘not logical for her to have sex with as many guys as she can’ it’s more logical for her to selective. Where as a man would want to sex as many girls as he could.

so when people talk of logic they don’t mean “women are stupid”. They mean “women can’t see the perspective from a mans point of view”

when it’s comes to the sexual objects part....it sounds harsh but that’s just reality. It’s evolution. Men don’t need women for anything apart from sex. Unless you can say otherwise?

Where as women look at men for social status, financial stability, taking care of the manual labour, (now enforced monogamy because love and sex are seen as the same where it’s for most of human history sex outside of marriage was accepted), women are hypergamous so they don’t date below a certain “standard”. (He has to be this tall, or have this much money, or get so much attention)....I could go on but I just woke up 😂

The standard for a man is simple “is she pretty, is she nice?” But the list for women is far longer than just “is he attractive, is he nice?”

So when you say, “you just see us as sexual objects”. The logic in men and women differs because men WISH it was just as simple as being sexy to find a partner

that sentence in itself “the same way women get love, by luck” shows the disconnect in logic. Men can’t luck themselves into sex or love. At least not in my country. You can’t just go sit somewhere, anywhere in public and get “lucky” but a woman just has to dress nice, go outside and the more attractive she is the more attention she gets. Now....women don’t even have to go outside, they just take a nice picture and she instantly will have guys trying to talk to her.
So the reality in which men get love in the same way as women just doesn’t exist. You mean luck as in getting “the guy she wants” which is the most high value man her and her friends have artificially decided has value. And that man that has the most value didn’t get that value from being “lucky”

I mean, you just said “put yourself in the friend zone and see if any one them want to take you out of it” or am I not getting what you’re saying?

Well, I’ve had mostly close female friends. I lived with mostly only girls at university 90% of the time....I saw them lie about things and cheat on their boyfriends and they told me a lot tricks about how women think and which women are crazy and which women had value. So there are two sides to having female friends at least in my experience.

I don’t really know what you mean about red pill propaganda. What is that? I don’t know much about it
 

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Yeah, but you can’t love others without loving yourself. So it has to start somewhere

Well, to sum up what you said. I don’t think it’s only womens jobs to educate men but society as a whole. I think we can all agree that with urbanisation, there’s has been a general shift towards isolation from each other and everyone is more lonely. So it’s up to everyone to be a bit more compassionate....

For example talking about this topic, you keep using the word “incel” that is the same as me starting a discussion about women by calling them “b*****s and gold diggers”. You can’t expect people to listen to anything you say after that.
I probably don't visit some of the parts of the internet you might, but my understanding is that incels call themselves that. Whereas most women do not call themselves "bit*hes and gold diggers" (that's what angry men tend to call them).

I am calling them incels--not an insult. They call themselves that--I am using the name they prefer.

I also don't have a problem with incel as a concept, except that it seems like it's bad for both the boys who get sucked into it (because the incel culture tends to really grind into them that they are inferior and it teaches them even worse social skills than they already had) and it's also bad for the people in society that they target with their anger and blame (women.) Plus, it's probably some kind of recruiting ground for extremist groups like white nationalist, which is also bad for everyone.

I don’t know if you’re a feminist or anything so don’t take this the wrong way, but women are PHYSICALLY inferior to men 98% of the time. That doesn’t mean looks. I mean bigger, faster, stronger. Men created a world where women can be more educated and make more money and have freedom but the actual practical sense women are inferior. When it comes to logic. It’s not that men or women are less logical. But because the desires of most men and women are different, what is logical for men and women is different.
I am just going to disagree with your choice of language. Women are physically adapted for childbirth--this means that they may tend to be less robust or have larger hips, and obviously they also have breasts which could be considered "inferior" but it also means they are meant to store fat and can survive longer without food (because again--feeding babies). Female fetus tend to be a bit more resilient than males and develop a bit faster...so during times of great stress, more women tend to be born.


For example it’s logical for a man to want as much sex with as many people as possible but it is not logical for most women to have as much sex as possible. I mean, not to me, I think everyone should bang as much as they can. But there are social stigmas, risk of pregnancy, and the decline of fertility in women earlier if they want children that makes it ‘not logical for her to have sex with as many guys as she can’ it’s more logical for her to selective. Where as a man would want to sex as many girls as he could.

so when people talk of logic they don’t mean “women are stupid”. They mean “women can’t see the perspective from a mans point of view”

when it’s comes to the sexual objects part....it sounds harsh but that’s just reality. It’s evolution. Men don’t need women for anything apart from sex. Unless you can say otherwise?
I will say that humans are social creatures. Just because an individual in a human society can get away with some behavior doesn't mean that is necessarily how people evolved. Supporting our communities went further to support our individual lives as well--and women are part of the community and historically have done much of the work. In more prehistoric communities, I also doubt that women would have been regarded as "only good for sex."

That's more modern and military--it's not based off of how humans evolved in smaller groups. Everyone was valuable and helped support the communities--people are weak and mostly hairless creatures who take decades to even reach maturity. It is the community working together that allowed humanity to survive.


Where as women look at men for social status, financial stability, taking care of the manual labour, (now enforced monogamy because love and sex are seen as the same where it’s for most of human history sex outside of marriage was accepted), women are hypergamous so they don’t date below a certain “standard”. (He has to be this tall, or have this much money, or get so much attention)....I could go on but I just woke up 😂
If someone wants to have a family, in modern times, they need to be able to financially provide for the family and it is not easy--usually both parents must work at jobs that really do not give two shits about their familylife (if you live in the US). So it makes sense that anyone seeking to start a family would want to choose a partner who is financially stable.

You are generalizing women about valuing these things. The attention thing isn't about women--it's human nature that many people have shallow values and they don't know what they want, so they value things that other people value.

That is fashion. That is supply and demand (some economic principle or whatever--that scarcity is value). Many people just want to want "the right" thing that they are told to want, and that means that they follow the herd--if one man is seen as desirable, then perhaps he is safer (this is they only rational reason I can think of).

If one woman is considered desirable to a man someone looks up to, perhaps she will give the man higher status in the eyes of those who view him--if she is a trophy partner. This has nothing to do with "female nature" but with the nature of shallow people who don't bother to figure out what they want as individuals, and who follow the fashions and whatever they think they are "supposed to" want, based on the society around them and impressing peer groups.


The standard for a man is simple “is she pretty, is she nice?” But the list for women is far longer than just “is he attractive, is he nice?”
This is not the standard for all men--and many men are attracted to women who aren't particularly "nice." But if the woman is going to be carrying a pregnancy that leaches minerals out of her bones, and taking care of a dependent for a couple decades, it makes sense she would want to be discerning, especially if a society has more income inequality and she risks falling into poverty (as that is one person's lower income feeding two mouths--it is not hard to fall into poverty while caring for a dependent, especially on the average woman's wages).


So when you say, “you just see us as sexual objects”. The logic in men and women differs because men WISH it was just as simple as being sexy to find a partner
I was talking about incels and the things they say--not men in general. Though I can see how some men might wish that women did the objectifying things to them, because that might make it easier for them to see if a woman was attracted, and because they don't understand the dangers that women are subjected to.

that sentence in itself “the same way women get love, by luck” shows the disconnect in logic. Men can’t luck themselves into sex or love. At least not in my country. You can’t just go sit somewhere, anywhere in public and get “lucky” but a woman just has to dress nice, go outside and the more attractive she is the more attention she gets. Now....women don’t even have to go outside, they just take a nice picture and she instantly will have guys trying to talk to her.
So the reality in which men get love in the same way as women just doesn’t exist. You mean luck as in getting “the guy she wants” which is the most high value man her and her friends have artificially decided has value. And that man that has the most value didn’t get that value from being “lucky”
It is meant more philosophically--you can't make anyone love you. As I said--sex and love are not the same thing. Obviously, people can be raped, but you cannot force someone to love.

Being attractive doesn't make people love you--unless you consider physical attraction love, which I do not. Physical attraction is also a poor indicator of relationship happiness and success.

Love is a gift that no one can buy or force. There are children born to unloving families and the child did nothing--they were unlucky. Just as their are children born to loving families and their only merit is that they were lucky. You are lucky if someone loves you--that is all I am saying. It's not rare, but it's nothing you can force--it is only something you can be grateful for and try to earn...by "earn" I moreso mean to try to live up to. Like trust. You can try to be trustworthy and you can try to be a good person to not hurt those who love you, but you cannot force anyone to love or trust you. It is always a gift.


I mean, you just said “put yourself in the friend zone and see if any one them want to take you out of it” or am I not getting what you’re saying?

Well, I’ve had mostly close female friends. I lived with mostly only girls at university 90% of the time....I saw them lie about things and cheat on their boyfriends and they told me a lot tricks about how women think and which women are crazy and which women had value. So there are two sides to having female friends at least in my experience.

I don’t really know what you mean about red pill propaganda. What is that? I don’t know much about it
No...putting one's self in the friendzone will help you choose women you can learn from, women who may help you develop social skills and greater understanding (this is for the isolated people I talked about).

Would you choose your male friends based on their character or their physical attractiveness? If you choose male friends that are honest, trustworthy, wise, kind etc. then why not choose women for that? That would also save you from pursuing a woman who ends up hurting you, which seems to be another source of the incel pain (and sexist mens' pain in general).

You wouldn't choose a male friend because his ass and smile (I assume if you are heterosexual), as you would know it is poor grounds for a friendship. If you choose a woman for these qualities then you are more likely to be hurt. If you choose female friends--you are more likely to learn more and to find someone who is trustworthy and supportive and perhaps can take the social skills you develop when engaging with friend women and then apply them to relationships in the future with women who are more than friends.

If you had a lot of female friends, perhaps that is why you don't struggle the same way that incels do (as you have said you do not feel it's that difficult to find a sexual partner). Yes--many people lie and while men still cheat more than women, and they still cheat as much as they used to--women have started catching up to them in statistics. So it makes sense you might have had female friends who cheated. Perhaps you can use that info about them as individuals to avoid choosing a partner like that if you do not want to be cheated on...unless you want to try to idk...reason with them. I think it's easier to just choose someone who wouldn't cheat though than try to figure out exactly what conditions might influence that (though I guess both are useful).

Redpill propaganda comes from a movie about the transgender experience but weirdly has been twisted to symbolize rejection notions about people having value or being equal despite being a different gender or race. So I've noticed a lot more redpiller propaganda throws a wedge between the genders, making it harder for young men to find partners if they are only using what they were told by redpill, rather than their own experience (which is why I said to make friends who are female and form your own opinions, rather than just swallowing a pill someone gives you). Obviously, I don't like redpill, though I am sure there are men who've found some benefit from some parts of it. I've never been involved in the community.
 

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I probably don't visit some of the parts of the internet you might, but my understanding is that incels call themselves that. Whereas most women do not call themselves "bit*hes and gold diggers" (that's what angry men tend to call them).

I am calling them incels--not an insult. They call themselves that--I am using the name they prefer.

I also don't have a problem with incel as a concept, except that it seems like it's bad for both the boys who get sucked into it (because the incel culture tends to really grind into them that they are inferior and it teaches them even worse social skills than they already had) and it's also bad for the people in society that they target with their anger and blame (women.) Plus, it's probably some kind of recruiting ground for extremist groups like white nationalist, which is also bad for everyone.



I am just going to disagree with your choice of language. Women are physically adapted for childbirth--this means that they may tend to be less robust or have larger hips, and obviously they also have breasts which could be considered "inferior" but it also means they are meant to store fat and can survive longer without food (because again--feeding babies). Female fetus tend to be a bit more resilient than males and develop a bit faster...so during times of great stress, more women tend to be born.




I will say that humans are social creatures. Just because an individual in a human society can get away with some behavior doesn't mean that is necessarily how people evolved. Supporting our communities went further to support our individual lives as well--and women are part of the community and historically have done much of the work. In more prehistoric communities, I also doubt that women would have been regarded as "only good for sex."

That's more modern and military--it's not based off of how humans evolved in smaller groups. Everyone was valuable and helped support the communities--people are weak and mostly hairless creatures who take decades to even reach maturity. It is the community working together that allowed humanity to survive.




If someone wants to have a family, in modern times, they need to be able to financially provide for the family and it is not easy--usually both parents must work at jobs that really do not give two shits about their familylife (if you live in the US). So it makes sense that anyone seeking to start a family would want to choose a partner who is financially stable.

You are generalizing women about valuing these things. The attention thing isn't about women--it's human nature that many people have shallow values and they don't know what they want, so they value things that other people value.

That is fashion. That is supply and demand (some economic principle or whatever--that scarcity is value). Many people just want to want "the right" thing that they are told to want, and that means that they follow the herd--if one man is seen as desirable, then perhaps he is safer (this is they only rational reason I can think of).

If one woman is considered desirable to a man someone looks up to, perhaps she will give the man higher status in the eyes of those who view him--if she is a trophy partner. This has nothing to do with "female nature" but with the nature of shallow people who don't bother to figure out what they want as individuals, and who follow the fashions and whatever they think they are "supposed to" want, based on the society around them and impressing peer groups.




This is not the standard for all men--and many men are attracted to women who aren't particularly "nice." But if the woman is going to be carrying a pregnancy that leaches minerals out of her bones, and taking care of a dependent for a couple decades, it makes sense she would want to be discerning, especially if a society has more income inequality and she risks falling into poverty (as that is one person's lower income feeding two mouths--it is not hard to fall into poverty while caring for a dependent, especially on the average woman's wages).




I was talking about incels and the things they say--not men in general. Though I can see how some men might wish that women did the objectifying things to them, because that might make it easier for them to see if a woman was attracted, and because they don't understand the dangers that women are subjected to.



It is meant more philosophically--you can't make anyone love you. As I said--sex and love are not the same thing. Obviously, people can be raped, but you cannot force someone to love.

Being attractive doesn't make people love you--unless you consider physical attraction love, which I do not. Physical attraction is also a poor indicator of relationship happiness and success.

Love is a gift that no one can buy or force. There are children born to unloving families and the child did nothing--they were unlucky. Just as their are children born to loving families and their only merit is that they were lucky. You are lucky if someone loves you--that is all I am saying. It's not rare, but it's nothing you can force--it is only something you can be grateful for and try to earn...by "earn" I moreso mean to try to live up to. Like trust. You can try to be trustworthy and you can try to be a good person to not hurt those who love you, but you cannot force anyone to love or trust you. It is always a gift.




No...putting one's self in the friendzone will help you choose women you can learn from, women who may help you develop social skills and greater understanding (this is for the isolated people I talked about).

Would you choose your male friends based on their character or their physical attractiveness? If you choose male friends that are honest, trustworthy, wise, kind etc. then why not choose women for that? That would also save you from pursuing a woman who ends up hurting you, which seems to be another source of the incel pain (and sexist mens' pain in general).

You wouldn't choose a male friend because his ass and smile (I assume if you are heterosexual), as you would know it is poor grounds for a friendship. If you choose a woman for these qualities then you are more likely to be hurt. If you choose female friends--you are more likely to learn more and to find someone who is trustworthy and supportive and perhaps can take the social skills you develop when engaging with friend women and then apply them to relationships in the future with women who are more than friends.

If you had a lot of female friends, perhaps that is why you don't struggle the same way that incels do (as you have said you do not feel it's that difficult to find a sexual partner). Yes--many people lie and while men still cheat more than women, and they still cheat as much as they used to--women have started catching up to them in statistics. So it makes sense you might have had female friends who cheated. Perhaps you can use that info about them as individuals to avoid choosing a partner like that if you do not want to be cheated on...unless you want to try to idk...reason with them. I think it's easier to just choose someone who wouldn't cheat though than try to figure out exactly what conditions might influence that (though I guess both are useful).

Redpill propaganda comes from a movie about the transgender experience but weirdly has been twisted to symbolize rejection notions about people having value or being equal despite being a different gender or race. So I've noticed a lot more redpiller propaganda throws a wedge between the genders, making it harder for young men to find partners if they are only using what they were told by redpill, rather than their own experience (which is why I said to make friends who are female and form your own opinions, rather than just swallowing a pill someone gives you). Obviously, I don't like redpill, though I am sure there are men who've found some benefit from some parts of it. I've never been involved in the community.
You perspective is very fascinating and engaging. I’ve learnt a lot thank you

I’m not really going to push back just ask some more questions and clarify what I meant because you’ve made me see things differently which I appreciate very much

I don’t understand how calling yourself an incel can be a compliment? Maybe they call each other that so they feel sort of part of a group to feel some kind of collective identity within their loneliness, but I don’t know. I’ve never heard a guy call himself that. Only heard it used as an insult.
Women don’t call themselves that but they call other women that 🤔

When I say inferior, I’m not talking about value or functions in society. The way I see it women are more valuable because they are the ones who continue our race. I only mean inferior in physiological sense of men being bigger, faster and stronger therefore more capable at things like building, fighting, protecting and leading when it comes situation that require physical dominance to be successful.

Both parents have to work. But on an individual level. Women are less likely to choose a man who makes less money than them. Men don’t really care about that. Men won’t not choose a woman because of lower income or occupation. It’s more likely that a man works and women stay at home. Even in today’s society. If a man said I want to be a house husband for a living he would be seen as less attractive to most women. But if a woman said she wants to stay at home and raise the kids...It’s more likely to find a man willing to accept that.

Generalising doesn’t mean wrong 😂

when I talk of status. I mean it is more likely that a rich man marries a poor woman and raises her standard of living than it is likely that a rich woman marries a poor man to raise his standard. Women usually go for someone equal or the same status in western white hierarchical systems for the most part. I can’t speak for every culture but usually in ours the woman won’t marry below her tax bracket.
What you’re talking about is perception of attractiveness and worth. Not actual status.
the attractive woman is an indicator of a mans status but he most likely achieved the status and then got the beautiful woman and not the other way around. In general. From my understanding

What do you mean men aren’t attract to nice women?

the gender pay gap exists for many reasons besides just gender, but that’s not really the topic 🤔

yeah, women have to be be more careful who they have sex with for many reasons

I agree with you philosophically
I assume we are talking consensual sex

Being attractive makes it easier for someone to love you. At least gives you a better chance to find love. Love itself is a deep philosophical enigma. It’s looks different for everyone and there are many different love languages.

For example: I can think if someone gives me great sex and quality time then I will love them. But if they want words of affirmation and I don’t provide that then the love is one sided. Not because I don’t love them but because the style and how I view love is different from them therefore making us incompatible
You’re right it’s not just physical but it’s hard to love someone if you don’t find them physically attractive to your eye

So relating to the family and children one. The idea of love can be one thing, for example providing and educating to give your offspring the best chance at survival. But it’s possible to neglect the emotional needs. Does that mean that it’s not real love? Or it’s just not understanding what type of love is needed?

Hmmm, okay...

I mean....🤔 I’ve never thought about how I choose my male friends and why they chose me, that’s a good question....
....men and women make friends differently. With my guy friends it’s things you have in common. I just so happen to be into sports and education. So that means most of my friends happen to be fit, good looking and intelligent people because that’s who I hang around with for the most part. Some of them aren’t as physically attractive as others on the surface level but because we all do the same things and have similar traits we don’t have issues finding women who are attracted to us. Whether that is a conscious or subconscious choice I actually don’t know. I’m sure people have been friends with me because “you’re a good athlete” and the perception of what associating with me could bring to their life

I don’t choose women for the same reasons I choose male friends 🤔

Yeah you’re right about the value of good female friends. But I don’t choose them because I can play ball, and talk about girls with them. I choose my female friends because they are nice to me, same thing with guys I suppose. I’m not the type to be friends with someone for what they can provide though bout I know others do. Like networking.
But that’s just not something I do personally.

I value people on if they treat me with respect and if I can learn from them. But I don’t think that criteria applies to everyone

I mean....I find it difficult to find someone willing to have sex with me. But after I had sex with women that were more beautiful than I could ever imagine I realised it didn’t give me the same satisfaction it gave my other friends. I would still feel empty. That’s one of the reasons I got into typology and psychology. To figure out why I feel differently. Realised I’m a sapiosexual. So physical attractiveness has little impact on my satisfaction. Not little but it’s just not as important. I just wrote that to explain that it’s not hard to find a girl who thinks I’m hot, but it’s hard to THE RIGHT sexual partner where I’m happy 🤔 well....it’s been lockdown so I might be exaggerating the difficulty but you know what I mean hopefully

Okay, I’ve never heard of it really but sounds interesting. Just in passing and reference but I didn’t know what it was
 

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I don’t understand how calling yourself an incel can be a compliment? Maybe they call each other that so they feel sort of part of a group to feel some kind of collective identity within their loneliness, but I don’t know. I’ve never heard a guy call himself that. Only heard it used as an insult.
Women don’t call themselves that but they call other women that 🤔
I think incel is just supposed to be an abbreviation and description--sort of like feminist. Incels are involuntary celibates, and they call themselves that. I don't think anyone should just call any celibate people that though--I've been celibate for a decade and imo it's involuntary, even if I do have the option to have sex of course (just like most incels could if they really wanted). However I don't call myself an incel. I do call myself a feminist, even if to some people that word would be used as an insult.


Both parents have to work. But on an individual level. Women are less likely to choose a man who makes less money than them. Men don’t really care about that. Men won’t not choose a woman because of lower income or occupation. It’s more likely that a man works and women stay at home. Even in today’s society. If a man said I want to be a house husband for a living he would be seen as less attractive to most women. But if a woman said she wants to stay at home and raise the kids...It’s more likely to find a man willing to accept that.
It may be more to do with society and culture than with biology though (though of course it is shaped by biology).

Men make more than women--many women don't make enough to support a family as a head of household. More men do.

Also, it's traditional to have the woman the domestic sphere and men in the work sphere--and many people are traditional.

With cheating, the numbers are leveling out. I do think if economics leveled out and women made more, they would probably have more stay at home husbands. I have known wealthy women who have poorer men like that. I also know modest income people who have the husband stay at home for a while because it makes economic sense. So while it does tend to be the way you describe, it could change.

What you’re talking about is perception of attractiveness and worth. Not actual status.
the attractive woman is an indicator of a mans status but he most likely achieved the status and then got the beautiful woman and not the other way around. In general. From my understanding

What do you mean men aren’t attract to nice women?
That is a good point about status and how status symbols work.

For both men and women, being "nice" isn't actually correlated with wealth. Nice people aren't necessarily the most seductive either, because seduction requires energy and probably sort of an enterprising nature, which isn't present in all nice people.

Imo, in the US, "niceness" isn't considered valuable by the larger culture. Seductive is. Enterprising is.

There are probably reasons why Mother Theresa took care of the sick and elderly and was married to "God" (I assume) but she's def. not going to be lusted over like Kim Kardashian. Many people prefer entertainment and seduction to niceness--it's just a quality that really has nothing to do with eroticism for most people.

Of course it makes sense that you would be more attracted to someone nice to you than not, but just because someone is being nice to you doesn't mean they're actually a nice person in general.

Valuing niceness might be rarer than you think, even if it makes sense to you.

And it's not like partners have to value in the partner what they value in themselves, but they do have to respect and understand it, I think. But there can be complementary relationships that work well too.


Being attractive makes it easier for someone to love you. At least gives you a better chance to find love. Love itself is a deep philosophical enigma. It’s looks different for everyone and there are many different love languages.

For example: I can think if someone gives me great sex and quality time then I will love them. But if they want words of affirmation and I don’t provide that then the love is one sided. Not because I don’t love them but because the style and how I view love is different from them therefore making us incompatible
You’re right it’s not just physical but it’s hard to love someone if you don’t find them physically attractive to your eye
Yeah--and I think it also comes down to values. Sometimes people can have different values but they are compatible. For example, a rich man and a very attractive wife. That can work if they both value materialism--so the rich man values the attractiveness of his wife and how she is a status symbol to him (to reinforce how great he is for himself), and the wife can value the rich man for how wealthy he is.

But I think people tend to get more bitter when they aren't appreciated for what they value in themselves. For example, if the rich man really values...um...being understood or something. Or that's what he wants--and his wife doesn't really care to understand him because she only values him for his money.

Or alternately, the wife is beautiful, but she values being appreciated for her simplicity and ability to smile through anything and never complain. If he doesn't value her for that then she might feel disappointed. Though I mean...I would assume he would.

That's a bit different than love languages, but I think sometimes it can work to have different values if they are compatible, just like having different love languages if both know what the others is and that is still compatible.

But relying too much on generalizations and assumptions isn't good because then you might ignore individuals--like if you value physical touch and sex, and you get into a relationship with someone who has very low libido just because you assume all women do, that's kind of a poor fit imo, when there are women who also value sex. Plus she would probably also be unhappy and might prefer to be with a more asexual man that understands her.


So relating to the family and children one. The idea of love can be one thing, for example providing and educating to give your offspring the best chance at survival. But it’s possible to neglect the emotional needs. Does that mean that it’s not real love? Or it’s just not understanding what type of love is needed?
I believe that if someone is doing their best to provide what their child needs, but they aren't capable of understanding or giving them something, it is still love--it is just not the type of loving action the child needed.

Hmmm, okay...

I mean....🤔 I’ve never thought about how I choose my male friends and why they chose me, that’s a good question....
....men and women make friends differently. With my guy friends it’s things you have in common. I just so happen to be into sports and education. So that means most of my friends happen to be fit, good looking and intelligent people because that’s who I hang around with for the most part. Some of them aren’t as physically attractive as others on the surface level but because we all do the same things and have similar traits we don’t have issues finding women who are attracted to us. Whether that is a conscious or subconscious choice I actually don’t know. I’m sure people have been friends with me because “you’re a good athlete” and the perception of what associating with me could bring to their life
It sounds like you value athletics--that it's part of what fulfills you as a person. I think that you would probably fit better with a woman who is also passionate about athletics, rather than just someone who is nice or attractive. Or at least someone who is understanding and accepting of athletics.

It's not uncommon for hobbies to cause conflict in relationships that aren't that great. My ex boss threw a fit enough times that her husband quit his hobby of rowing. I think that's sad because to me, hobbies can be really important and I've also been in a relationship with someone who threw a fit about me being into art a lot of times. My ex was passionate about athletics and while I could accommodate to him, he didn't accommodate to my interests and instead condemned them...and he couldn't bother taking an interest in things like museums. So ultimately we were incompatible unless I was to completely sacrifice my personality outside of his interests.

So I do think it's important to look at compatibility and be honest about things like valuing athletics--a girl can be cute and attractive--it doesn't means she's going to be down with you playing basketball with your friends (or whatever you do) later on, when you have a kid together, it she doesn't understand that passion. Same for how some men act.

Sometimes it can work--another old coworker I had was a very nice person and her husband was an athlete. It worked fine--she respected his hobby and passion and he probably liked how nice she was though she was incredibly self-sacrificing. But she wasn't very athletic and that didn't matter to him.

I don’t choose women for the same reasons I choose male friends 🤔

Yeah you’re right about the value of good female friends. But I don’t choose them because I can play ball, and talk about girls with them. I choose my female friends because they are nice to me, same thing with guys I suppose. I’m not the type to be friends with someone for what they can provide though bout I know others do. Like networking.
But that’s just not something I do personally.

I value people on if they treat me with respect and if I can learn from them. But I don’t think that criteria applies to everyone

I mean....I find it difficult to find someone willing to have sex with me. But after I had sex with women that were more beautiful than I could ever imagine I realised it didn’t give me the same satisfaction it gave my other friends. I would still feel empty. That’s one of the reasons I got into typology and psychology. To figure out why I feel differently. Realised I’m a sapiosexual. So physical attractiveness has little impact on my satisfaction. Not little but it’s just not as important. I just wrote that to explain that it’s not hard to find a girl who thinks I’m hot, but it’s hard to THE RIGHT sexual partner where I’m happy 🤔 well....it’s been lockdown so I might be exaggerating the difficulty but you know what I mean hopefully

Okay, I’ve never heard of it really but sounds interesting. Just in passing and reference but I didn’t know what it was
Your situation is probably more familiar to a lot of women than men. I'm not saying you are feminine, but many women do get frustrated when they are valued for something superficial like their appearance, and not for something they value about themselves. Some like the attention. Some don't. It's probably similar to the anxieties more men might experience, about being valued for wealth.

There are also women who view being attractive as power. So it's not like all women are the same and there's no wrong/right here imo.

I have always sensed that beauty doesn't give satisfaction. I think it can help to feel confident about one's attractiveness to have good sex, but I also know too many attractive people who've been miserable in a relationship that might have looked good on the outside.

I've also known people who were nothing close to the conventional definition of attractive, who had loving, fulfilling relationships--probably because they matched in love language and values.
 

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I think incel is just supposed to be an abbreviation and description--sort of like feminist. Incels are involuntary celibates, and they call themselves that. I don't think anyone should just call any celibate people that though--I've been celibate for a decade and imo it's involuntary, even if I do have the option to have sex of course (just like most incels could if they really wanted). However I don't call myself an incel. I do call myself a feminist, even if to some people that word would be used as an insult.




It may be more to do with society and culture than with biology though (though of course it is shaped by biology).

Men make more than women--many women don't make enough to support a family as a head of household. More men do.

Also, it's traditional to have the woman the domestic sphere and men in the work sphere--and many people are traditional.

With cheating, the numbers are leveling out. I do think if economics leveled out and women made more, they would probably have more stay at home husbands. I have known wealthy women who have poorer men like that. I also know modest income people who have the husband stay at home for a while because it makes economic sense. So while it does tend to be the way you describe, it could change.



That is a good point about status and how status symbols work.

For both men and women, being "nice" isn't actually correlated with wealth. Nice people aren't necessarily the most seductive either, because seduction requires energy and probably sort of an enterprising nature, which isn't present in all nice people.

Imo, in the US, "niceness" isn't considered valuable by the larger culture. Seductive is. Enterprising is.

There are probably reasons why Mother Theresa took care of the sick and elderly and was married to "God" (I assume) but she's def. not going to be lusted over like Kim Kardashian. Many people prefer entertainment and seduction to niceness--it's just a quality that really has nothing to do with eroticism for most people.

Of course it makes sense that you would be more attracted to someone nice to you than not, but just because someone is being nice to you doesn't mean they're actually a nice person in general.

Valuing niceness might be rarer than you think, even if it makes sense to you.

And it's not like partners have to value in the partner what they value in themselves, but they do have to respect and understand it, I think. But there can be complementary relationships that work well too.




Yeah--and I think it also comes down to values. Sometimes people can have different values but they are compatible. For example, a rich man and a very attractive wife. That can work if they both value materialism--so the rich man values the attractiveness of his wife and how she is a status symbol to him (to reinforce how great he is for himself), and the wife can value the rich man for how wealthy he is.

But I think people tend to get more bitter when they aren't appreciated for what they value in themselves. For example, if the rich man really values...um...being understood or something. Or that's what he wants--and his wife doesn't really care to understand him because she only values him for his money.

Or alternately, the wife is beautiful, but she values being appreciated for her simplicity and ability to smile through anything and never complain. If he doesn't value her for that then she might feel disappointed. Though I mean...I would assume he would.

That's a bit different than love languages, but I think sometimes it can work to have different values if they are compatible, just like having different love languages if both know what the others is and that is still compatible.

But relying too much on generalizations and assumptions isn't good because then you might ignore individuals--like if you value physical touch and sex, and you get into a relationship with someone who has very low libido just because you assume all women do, that's kind of a poor fit imo, when there are women who also value sex. Plus she would probably also be unhappy and might prefer to be with a more asexual man that understands her.




I believe that if someone is doing their best to provide what their child needs, but they aren't capable of understanding or giving them something, it is still love--it is just not the type of loving action the child needed.



It sounds like you value athletics--that it's part of what fulfills you as a person. I think that you would probably fit better with a woman who is also passionate about athletics, rather than just someone who is nice or attractive. Or at least someone who is understanding and accepting of athletics.

It's not uncommon for hobbies to cause conflict in relationships that aren't that great. My ex boss threw a fit enough times that her husband quit his hobby of rowing. I think that's sad because to me, hobbies can be really important and I've also been in a relationship with someone who threw a fit about me being into art a lot of times. My ex was passionate about athletics and while I could accommodate to him, he didn't accommodate to my interests and instead condemned them...and he couldn't bother taking an interest in things like museums. So ultimately we were incompatible unless I was to completely sacrifice my personality outside of his interests.

So I do think it's important to look at compatibility and be honest about things like valuing athletics--a girl can be cute and attractive--it doesn't means she's going to be down with you playing basketball with your friends (or whatever you do) later on, when you have a kid together, it she doesn't understand that passion. Same for how some men act.

Sometimes it can work--another old coworker I had was a very nice person and her husband was an athlete. It worked fine--she respected his hobby and passion and he probably liked how nice she was though she was incredibly self-sacrificing. But she wasn't very athletic and that didn't matter to him.



Your situation is probably more familiar to a lot of women than men. I'm not saying you are feminine, but many women do get frustrated when they are valued for something superficial like their appearance, and not for something they value about themselves. Some like the attention. Some don't. It's probably similar to the anxieties more men might experience, about being valued for wealth.

There are also women who view being attractive as power. So it's not like all women are the same and there's no wrong/right here imo.

I have always sensed that beauty doesn't give satisfaction. I think it can help to feel confident about one's attractiveness to have good sex, but I also know too many attractive people who've been miserable in a relationship that might have looked good on the outside.

I've also known people who were nothing close to the conventional definition of attractive, who had loving, fulfilling relationships--probably because they matched in love language and values.
Sorry for the late reply, life unfortunately needs to be lived

I don’t understand in reality with 3 billion women how you can be an involuntary celibate....but anyway
That’s because the modern day feminism want both to keep the benefits of special treatment of being a woman while also having the benefits that come with the freedom of being a man. I don’t think most sane people view actual feminism as an insult or negative

Jesus, I can go along time without sex but I don’t think I could go a decade 😂

Like I said thought the pay gap is more than just “you’re a woman you get less/you’re a man you get paid more” for example women often don’t need to make as much as men because their partners usually do. Also, women are not judged on socio economic status. So don’t push as hard for it.....lots of other reasons

I think you’re giving examples of exceptions i the rule. Which proves my point. I like how you went ‘most people are traditional, but I also know these non traditional people’

most people are SJs...so Kim kardashian appeals to most people’s SJ side.
Seduction doesn’t make for long term happy relationships (I’ve never had one so I wouldn’t know) 😂 I could be wrong

Women go for the “he’s bad but he’s nice to me sometimes” thing all the time. I think niceness is a bigger factor for men. (I could be wrong about that too but personally a mean girl is a massive turn off and I don’t know many mean girls that can keep a man) she must at least me nice to him.

I don’t think it’s rare. The people with most friends are the kindest most selfless people. I don’t mean people who pretend when it’s convenient. I mean genuine care about other people a lot. Which is rare. So it’s not the valuing it that is rare. But the the people who are truly nice that are rare. For example I’m nice, even go over the top for the people I like, but I just don’t like many people.

I think the best relationships are those where the other person provides something the other person doesn’t have or can’t give themselves.
intrinsically, less extrinsically.

It has to be deeper than that for me. Because the rich man can get any pretty woman and the pretty woman should be be able to get a “rich man” (depending on what she consider rich)

yeah you’re right, I don’t think it would work if the thing the person want to be loved for isn’t being felt. Sometimes it’s felt but not expressed in the right way.

I think almost every woman wants lots of sex if it’s the right guy. If she doesn’t want to have sex with you all the time it’s not her, you’re just not the guy. And that could be for millions of reasons.

I think if the child tells them and they still don’t want to fix that then it’s not not love. It’s some sort of selfish ego boost. Like a symbol. “Look at all the things I can provide for my child/look at how smart (or capable) my child is”
Without any consideration for emotional happiness of that child (but I could be projecting 😂)

I don’t value sports, but I have to be with someone who respects what I like/do. Passion isn’t a requirement. I suppose it would be easier to get on with someone who did. Maybe I’ll try that 🤔

yeah I feel you. That sucks. Art I feel is disrespected by society in general so you can’t be with someone who doesn’t like it.

I mean. Play basketball all the time so that’s a non starter. I don’t see how you could like me and not like what I do. I think what a person does and how well they do it is most of who they are as a human

Yes. It’s one of the reasons I have had more close female friends than male friends. I can’t stand being around guys who only think about sex all the time. But it’s just because being a sapio and intuitive means I don’t get the same stimulation from looking at a totally gorgeous woman. Which sucks but it is what it is.

But I like being valued for me appearance and what I can do and being a good person. Most women aren’t visual so appearance rarely keeps a woman. Women do love capability so I don’t mind that. Very few women will sleep with you for being kind. But being a good person might be the most important thing to me in life. Not always making others feel good in the moment, but doing the right thing

being attractive IS POWER

Yeah attractiveness doesn’t make you happy but it eliminates one problem (I find some of the best looking people are most insecure about their Looks)

If physical attractiveness isn’t important to you then it’s not needed to have a good relationship. But in an SJ world that isn’t the case for most people
 

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Sorry for the late reply, life unfortunately needs to be lived

I don’t understand in reality with 3 billion women how you can be an involuntary celibate....but anyway
That’s because the modern day feminism want both to keep the benefits of special treatment of being a woman while also having the benefits that come with the freedom of being a man. I don’t think most sane people view actual feminism as an insult or negative

Jesus, I can go along time without sex but I don’t think I could go a decade 😂
I am actually really happy about going without--it's been a good period to reflect on how I identify sex and what it means to me, personally, with no one else to consider.

I definitely miss physical intimacy. But at the same time, I have the knowledge of what it is and I am also so weirded out by some of the beliefs that circulate around groups of men, about sex. I read that now they like to rate women with numbers and people choke each other and there's so much weird leftover sexist stuff...I worried that I would accidentally sleep with someone who thinks like that.

Because you know, you cant totally tell how mean a person is for a while, or how kind they are. So I can look back on a decade of not regretting sleeping with some guy who I then find out is a complete tool.

I don't think there are more men who are not kind or good people, necessarily, but men aren't really encouraged to be respectful about sex in the same way women are, perhaps. I'm not into the having sex with people while also disparaging them, which seems to be more commonly expressed as a positive thing in between men. I have been horrified by how I've heard it talked about though, and it makes me less interested in casual sex.

So there is something nice about having that stretch of time that is just me and my thoughts, and not having to consider the thoughts of a sexual partner--whether they are fantasies or opinions and beliefs.


Like I said thought the pay gap is more than just “you’re a woman you get less/you’re a man you get paid more” for example women often don’t need to make as much as men because their partners usually do. Also, women are not judged on socio economic status. So don’t push as hard for it.....lots of other reasons
This is commonly used as the excuse, but there are also many times when women have greater expenses than men, like if the woman is left as a single mother.

One explanation is that women tend to accept lower wages because that is what is available, but also because women are used to working for free since a lot of traditional work done by women--domestic, childcare, etc. are "free."

That the woman takes the low wage, and she continues to build off that in her life. The other is that pregnancy tends to disrupt a woman's career trajectory...so create gaps in employment. And then there is the very real thing of discrimination against parents in some work cultures--having a child means you might have to take a sick day for the child etc.

Then there are also the industries that women occupy tend to pay a lot less--and part of that is because they are just not profitable (aside from prostitution and adult industry), but like teaching isn't going to turn some huge profit since you are just helping a child grow, or caregiving where you're taking care of an elderly person.

I think you’re giving examples of exceptions i the rule. Which proves my point. I like how you went ‘most people are traditional, but I also know these non traditional people’

most people are SJs...so Kim kardashian appeals to most people’s SJ side.
Seduction doesn’t make for long term happy relationships (I’ve never had one so I wouldn’t know) 😂 I could be wrong

Women go for the “he’s bad but he’s nice to me sometimes” thing all the time. I think niceness is a bigger factor for men. (I could be wrong about that too but personally a mean girl is a massive turn off and I don’t know many mean girls that can keep a man) she must at least me nice to him.
What's the "he's bad but he's nice to me sometimes thing"?

Women are socialized to smile more, to care for relationships more. I guess maybe I think of niceness as being more specific, but women tend to act nicer and I do find there are a lot less women who embrace sexist or racist ideas too--maybe part of being pro-social. So I think I understand how you see it.


I don’t think it’s rare. The people with most friends are the kindest most selfless people. I don’t mean people who pretend when it’s convenient. I mean genuine care about other people a lot. Which is rare. So it’s not the valuing it that is rare. But the the people who are truly nice that are rare. For example I’m nice, even go over the top for the people I like, but I just don’t like many people.
Yeah--I guess it depends on what you mean by kind. I've known people who are always networking and forming relationships and maintaining them, who are very kind, but was also thinking of people like idk Jane Goodall or others who go off on their own to do the right thing according to their beliefs.

It sometimes brings enemies and it doesn't always lead to the same popularity, though maybe the friendships formed while doing what one believes in could be deeper...or at least with people of matching values (I'd say the latter).

I try to be kind, but I am pretty unstructured and sometimes bitchy--you can volunteer somewhere for the external structure and channeling your energy--like for example, walking dogs at an animal shelter. Another example of how it's not necessarily going to make you more friends than like going out to brunch with friends, because homeless dogs aren't people to network with.

But it could still be a "kind" thing, and for the dogs--I haven't done it in years though. You could meet some prisoners from the penitentiary lol and make friendships (I'm sort of joking, but that's who they use the labor from here, as well, for the animal shelters--which I do think is good also since that allows them to give back to the community and the animals need it too). But I guess my point is that you could be kind to homeless dogs, which I would consider "kind" but it might not translate into greater popularity with humans that exactly.

I think the best relationships are those where the other person provides something the other person doesn’t have or can’t give themselves.
It makes sense--that is more like the idea of love by Plato in The, Symposium. That it's about what you are not.

Though I think similarities are important for compatibility as well.

It has to be deeper than that for me. Because the rich man can get any pretty woman and the pretty woman should be be able to get a “rich man” (depending on what she consider rich)

yeah you’re right, I don’t think it would work if the thing the person want to be loved for isn’t being felt. Sometimes it’s felt but not expressed in the right way.

I think almost every woman wants lots of sex if it’s the right guy. If she doesn’t want to have sex with you all the time it’s not her, you’re just not the guy. And that could be for millions of reasons.
I've not really heard that from other women--maybe just after women have children and stuff, I have heard more women get exhausted from working and doing the domestic labor and childcare at home, getting less interested in sex the more stressed and overwhelmed they feel. Financial stress and house work seem inhibitive of libido for many people when they are in a relationship. I think sometimes couples neglect romance--and if they didn't they'd probably be happier.

I've heard women who express they want their male partner to do some of what they do--like an ISFJ who wanted him to set up a romantic evening. But then my (NT I think) friend was like "these outdoor showers allowed me to have 15 orgasms because of the smell of other men and humans aren't evolved for monogamy" lol so yeah...different ranges of what gets people going and different libidos I think. I also know women who have very little libido, but I don't think that's that uncommon.

I think if the child tells them and they still don’t want to fix that then it’s not not love. It’s some sort of selfish ego boost. Like a symbol. “Look at all the things I can provide for my child/look at how smart (or capable) my child is”
Without any consideration for emotional happiness of that child (but I could be projecting 😂)
Sometimes it's harder to change one's behavior than it is to understand how it's harmful, but I agree with you that it is loving to avoid even indirectly hurting a loved one.

I don’t value sports, but I have to be with someone who respects what I like/do. Passion isn’t a requirement. I suppose it would be easier to get on with someone who did. Maybe I’ll try that 🤔
Well I guess you have it covered with "niceness" since a nice person shouldn't demand that you stop playing sports. Though sometimes people act nicer at first. lol

yeah I feel you. That sucks. Art I feel is disrespected by society in general so you can’t be with someone who doesn’t like it.

I mean. Play basketball all the time so that’s a non starter. I don’t see how you could like me and not like what I do. I think what a person does and how well they do it is most of who they are as a human
I agree. I am not sure--he liked what I did in the beginning. He even took an art class himself. But he was insecure--he thought that I would meet an art student and he said "artists are perverts" because of nude drawing. But it's really the English majors that are the perverts, I'm telling you. WAY more perverted discussions going on in English lit classes rofl Artists are mostly just working in class.

Yes. It’s one of the reasons I have had more close female friends than male friends. I can’t stand being around guys who only think about sex all the time. But it’s just because being a sapio and intuitive means I don’t get the same stimulation from looking at a totally gorgeous woman. Which sucks but it is what it is.

But I like being valued for me appearance and what I can do and being a good person. Most women aren’t visual so appearance rarely keeps a woman. Women do love capability so I don’t mind that. Very few women will sleep with you for being kind. But being a good person might be the most important thing to me in life. Not always making others feel good in the moment, but doing the right thing

being attractive IS POWER

Yeah attractiveness doesn’t make you happy but it eliminates one problem (I find some of the best looking people are most insecure about their Looks)

If physical attractiveness isn’t important to you then it’s not needed to have a good relationship. But in an SJ world that isn’t the case for most people
Yeah--if you want someone to appreciate you for you, too, then it's important to be true to what is important to you in life--like being a good person. Even if it's not evident to everyone just by looking at you.

I think attractiveness is good--if not taken to extreme, I think it's just kind of a reaction to health...which is good for people to be physically healthy. I am sure there is something about being confident in one's appearance translating to being more confident sexually.
Though I agree that body image doesn't always work like that.

I am not pleased with my physical appearance (I've never really been, but I have good reason not to be now, imo lol...though I don't feel like going into detail about how unhappy I am lol), but I find the idea of focusing on my health and happiness a lot more helpful for motivating myself to get into a healthier lifestyle (I've been dealing with quitting drinking for one thing), which makes most sense to me. But fitness can also affect the things you enjoy--I enjoy foraging for mushrooms and ideally a lot of different outdoor activities, but I can't do them alone safely, so they haven't been much of a motivation for fitness anyway. But I think in general, it is important not to forget about the body, especially for intuitives. It is how we live on earth.

I haven't ever been a ball game kind of person--I dislike groups, including team sports.

I was always this guy
(actually more like Crybaby Carl):

 

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Male anger comes from a lot of places because anger can come from a lot of places and it has little to do with gender or sex besides social influences. But blaming male anger on women is what social workers like to call "abuse culture." It's a straight up abuse tactic designed to control and dominate women through sexism and victim blaming, etc etc. A literal threat of violence if they don't put out, while blaming them for it. It gets perpetrated through society as less openly blatantly toxic memes that are supposed to be white washing, but idk how "if you don't sleep with me I'll get angry and it'll be your fault" is even white washing... it's pretty openly rapey / abusive.
Just out of curiosity, I wonder if it's called "abuse culture" when women sit in a corner and rationalize all the ways that everything is men's faults and how giving men a cerfew sounds like a good idea to them.
 

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I am actually really happy about going without--it's been a good period to reflect on how I identify sex and what it means to me, personally, with no one else to consider.

I definitely miss physical intimacy. But at the same time, I have the knowledge of what it is and I am also so weirded out by some of the beliefs that circulate around groups of men, about sex. I read that now they like to rate women with numbers and people choke each other and there's so much weird leftover sexist stuff...I worried that I would accidentally sleep with someone who thinks like that.

Because you know, you cant totally tell how mean a person is for a while, or how kind they are. So I can look back on a decade of not regretting sleeping with some guy who I then find out is a complete tool.

I don't think there are more men who are not kind or good people, necessarily, but men aren't really encouraged to be respectful about sex in the same way women are, perhaps. I'm not into the having sex with people while also disparaging them, which seems to be more commonly expressed as a positive thing in between men. I have been horrified by how I've heard it talked about though, and it makes me less interested in casual sex.

So there is something nice about having that stretch of time that is just me and my thoughts, and not having to consider the thoughts of a sexual partner--whether they are fantasies or opinions and beliefs.




This is commonly used as the excuse, but there are also many times when women have greater expenses than men, like if the woman is left as a single mother.

One explanation is that women tend to accept lower wages because that is what is available, but also because women are used to working for free since a lot of traditional work done by women--domestic, childcare, etc. are "free."

That the woman takes the low wage, and she continues to build off that in her life. The other is that pregnancy tends to disrupt a woman's career trajectory...so create gaps in employment. And then there is the very real thing of discrimination against parents in some work cultures--having a child means you might have to take a sick day for the child etc.

Then there are also the industries that women occupy tend to pay a lot less--and part of that is because they are just not profitable (aside from prostitution and adult industry), but like teaching isn't going to turn some huge profit since you are just helping a child grow, or caregiving where you're taking care of an elderly person.



What's the "he's bad but he's nice to me sometimes thing"?

Women are socialized to smile more, to care for relationships more. I guess maybe I think of niceness as being more specific, but women tend to act nicer and I do find there are a lot less women who embrace sexist or racist ideas too--maybe part of being pro-social. So I think I understand how you see it.




Yeah--I guess it depends on what you mean by kind. I've known people who are always networking and forming relationships and maintaining them, who are very kind, but was also thinking of people like idk Jane Goodall or others who go off on their own to do the right thing according to their beliefs.

It sometimes brings enemies and it doesn't always lead to the same popularity, though maybe the friendships formed while doing what one believes in could be deeper...or at least with people of matching values (I'd say the latter).

I try to be kind, but I am pretty unstructured and sometimes bitchy--you can volunteer somewhere for the external structure and channeling your energy--like for example, walking dogs at an animal shelter. Another example of how it's not necessarily going to make you more friends than like going out to brunch with friends, because homeless dogs aren't people to network with.

But it could still be a "kind" thing, and for the dogs--I haven't done it in years though. You could meet some prisoners from the penitentiary lol and make friendships (I'm sort of joking, but that's who they use the labor from here, as well, for the animal shelters--which I do think is good also since that allows them to give back to the community and the animals need it too). But I guess my point is that you could be kind to homeless dogs, which I would consider "kind" but it might not translate into greater popularity with humans that exactly.



It makes sense--that is more like the idea of love by Plato in The, Symposium. That it's about what you are not.

Though I think similarities are important for compatibility as well.



I've not really heard that from other women--maybe just after women have children and stuff, I have heard more women get exhausted from working and doing the domestic labor and childcare at home, getting less interested in sex the more stressed and overwhelmed they feel. Financial stress and house work seem inhibitive of libido for many people when they are in a relationship. I think sometimes couples neglect romance--and if they didn't they'd probably be happier.

I've heard women who express they want their male partner to do some of what they do--like an ISFJ who wanted him to set up a romantic evening. But then my (NT I think) friend was like "these outdoor showers allowed me to have 15 orgasms because of the smell of other men and humans aren't evolved for monogamy" lol so yeah...different ranges of what gets people going and different libidos I think. I also know women who have very little libido, but I don't think that's that uncommon.



Sometimes it's harder to change one's behavior than it is to understand how it's harmful, but I agree with you that it is loving to avoid even indirectly hurting a loved one.



Well I guess you have it covered with "niceness" since a nice person shouldn't demand that you stop playing sports. Though sometimes people act nicer at first. lol



I agree. I am not sure--he liked what I did in the beginning. He even took an art class himself. But he was insecure--he thought that I would meet an art student and he said "artists are perverts" because of nude drawing. But it's really the English majors that are the perverts, I'm telling you. WAY more perverted discussions going on in English lit classes rofl Artists are mostly just working in class.



Yeah--if you want someone to appreciate you for you, too, then it's important to be true to what is important to you in life--like being a good person. Even if it's not evident to everyone just by looking at you.

I think attractiveness is good--if not taken to extreme, I think it's just kind of a reaction to health...which is good for people to be physically healthy. I am sure there is something about being confident in one's appearance translating to being more confident sexually.
Though I agree that body image doesn't always work like that.

I am not pleased with my physical appearance (I've never really been, but I have good reason not to be now, imo lol...though I don't feel like going into detail about how unhappy I am lol), but I find the idea of focusing on my health and happiness a lot more helpful for motivating myself to get into a healthier lifestyle (I've been dealing with quitting drinking for one thing), which makes most sense to me. But fitness can also affect the things you enjoy--I enjoy foraging for mushrooms and ideally a lot of different outdoor activities, but I can't do them alone safely, so they haven't been much of a motivation for fitness anyway. But I think in general, it is important not to forget about the body, especially for intuitives. It is how we live on earth.

I haven't ever been a ball game kind of person--I dislike groups, including team sports.

I was always this guy
(actually more like Crybaby Carl):

From what you’re saying I’m taking it you’ve never had great sex. I hear that is actually a common thing with women. Because you said intimacy. And not the raw physical pleasure that comes with it. I could be wrong 🤷🏿‍♂️

Everything in life is about sex, apart from sex. Sex is about power.

Well men and women are totally different. A man who sleeps with 100 women is totally different than a woman who has sex with 100 men. For many reasons....

I’ve been far more disgusted by listening to women talk about sex than how my guy friends talk about it. Men don’t actually give as much detail. But everyone’s experienced different things.

men don’t care about how you think about sex or what you think about their thoughts of sex are. 😂

It’s the woman’s choice if she wants a child. Women shouldn’t be responsible for their own “expenses”? You really are a feminist 😂
Key word is “accept”.
that is the laws of supply and demand
Yes because a woman can function just fine on a relatively “low wage” because society will not judge her on her money
Personal matters and business matters don’t mix. Why should the business suffer because of someone’s non work related personal choices? It’s up to the parents to understand the rules of society before they have children and adjust their life accordingly.
my parents worked night and day to avoid the issue of sick days and that kind of thing for most of my life. Sacrificing many nights together. They don’t love each other that much so I’m sure it wasn’t that big of a deal.

but there are other benefits to teaching other “high income” jobs don’t provide.

Women like bad boys. That’s what the “nice to me thing” means

Yes,women are encouraged to act a certain way but men are also becoming more feminine to be able to operate in today’s society

By kind I mean that rare type of person who goes out of their way to help others regardless of what they can do for them and when no one is watching.

yeah, being nice to animals is different than humans.

Women like men who walk dogs so maybe that’s something 🤔

Of course common ground is needed for any relationship but it’s like chemical bonds. They bond and react because of the missing pieces to each ones individual structure. (I’m not a a scientist but I hope you get me)

well women can’t just go round and test driving every mans penis so you won’t hear it from women because they won’t know for the most part. I was best friends with one girl who said her ex thought she didn’t like sex but she left him and slept with every guy she liked and loved to experiment. So your view on sex just depends on your past experiences. Women can feel one way then have sex with the right guy and feel totally different.

yeah sex is different for everyone. But libido works inversely for men and women as they age. As women get older they want more sex and men need less.

there are external factors that get in the way but it just depends of how much sex a priority. Romance naturally decreases with time but you have to just make time for it like anything else.

some people don’t even try to understand. Just say the words and repeat the mistakes

I once dated a girl who liked me for being a good athlete but was suicidal because I wouldn’t spend all my time with her....that was fun at 15 😂

everyone’s a pervert just some people are better at hiding it

it correlates that if you don’t care about physical activity, don’t feel comfortable with your image and don’t like sex that all those things can be related.

yeah intuitives can get too stuck in our heads a lot

No one used to pick me because I’m black (I know, counter intuitive) but I just went and played anyways. One of the reasons I love basketball is because you can get really good by yourself
 

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Why would they think sex is the same thing as love?
harlequinn novels, talk shows, reality tv and romantic comedies?

it's a common trope for many.

though personally, I'd lend it back to the purity ring craze of the 2000s which ras actually less about chasity than the religious reich trying to prevent the ghey... which started off a reboot of anal among the hetero crowd, in particular, the religious youth crowd in wide sweeping numbers.. enough so even the mainstream was able to interject it into storylines in its era - though it was split 50/50% between the usual fear mongering about teen sex vs the fear mongering about religion.

while over the next decade it would be a thing for str8 young people to film themselves coming out to their parents and guardians about eating booty.

(unable to locate the originating viral exchange between mother and daughter with mother reeling, chanting yo nasty before inevitably questioning how she can be such a picky eater and still do that. so, suffer this instead:)


and yet in this same time period, we saw the left grow increasingly authoritarian, arguably 'conservative' across the board as sjw'ism came to look much like the religious reich of the late 70s to 90s.

but to OP's header...

for the same reason that women, even self described feminists, say something that goes against the popular beliefs of the moment.. are frequently accused of being dickmatized or men (even from the so called normie feminazis, though it's more common with the terf variety.)


also because every supremacy group has a mythos/origin story, and to be superior, requires a scapegoat.. a particularly villainous villain that almost seems superior because of their privilege and ability to oppress but totes isn't because they stole it from the once glorious kingdom of ol' and how we all must work together to achieve a new utopia that ignores the whataboutisms of history where such conspiracies go unmentioned.


@TheUnnecessaryEvil honestly mate, you might be better off with kiwi, TiA, KiA, StormfrontorSJW, or any circlejerk where people know the difference between 4 and 8 or can recognize the similarities in neckbeards and legbeards.

after a woman is just a woman but a fig newton is fruit and cake


---

all in all, I blame the lack of courtship rituals...


and the hypocritical, blatantly confused messages in the sociopolitical farce that is known as feminism inc - feminist inc which may be separated from feminism, however feminism cannot be separated from it.. much like gen x vs all things cringey renamed eXtreme

chalking up where male anger comes from is one such confused message... feminism inc discounts men's issues as inherently misogynistic or non-existent, prvilege and therefore not important, men's tears=feminism, or only solved through compulsory membership with feminism. so, there really can't be any other reason for men's anger than misogyny. therefore, that's why you need feminism. and why women continue to need feminism because MEN.

so, no ever transcending such issues. works the same for incels/mgtow too.
 

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From what you’re saying I’m taking it you’ve never had great sex. I hear that is actually a common thing with women. Because you said intimacy. And not the raw physical pleasure that comes with it. I could be wrong 🤷🏿‍♂️

Everything in life is about sex, apart from sex. Sex is about power.
Well that sounds horrible. Glad to be celibate then. Also--I understand physical pleasure. I just don't think it's as important as other things.

Well men and women are totally different. A man who sleeps with 100 women is totally different than a woman who has sex with 100 men. For many reasons....

I’ve been far more disgusted by listening to women talk about sex than how my guy friends talk about it. Men don’t actually give as much detail. But everyone’s experienced different things.

men don’t care about how you think about sex or what you think about their thoughts of sex are. 😂
Sounds kind of like a double standard. But I don't really care how people judge or view women or men who've had more/less sex.

It’s the woman’s choice if she wants a child. Women shouldn’t be responsible for their own “expenses”? You really are a feminist 😂
I don't view children as dollar signs. I view them as human beings. And yes--a human being that needs to be supported by a community (as a child does) is a human being...not an "expense" in my eyes. Though I can see how for a woman who is faced between homelessness or...um...homelessness, would understand that children's needs are expensive.

But no--I don't view humans as dollars or "expenses" that should be brushed aside and forgotten about so I can profit.


Key word is “accept”.
that is the laws of supply and demand
Yes because a woman can function just fine on a relatively “low wage” because society will not judge her on her money
Personal matters and business matters don’t mix. Why should the business suffer because of someone’s non work related personal choices? It’s up to the parents to understand the rules of society before they have children and adjust their life accordingly.
my parents worked night and day to avoid the issue of sick days and that kind of thing for most of my life. Sacrificing many nights together. They don’t love each other that much so I’m sure it wasn’t that big of a deal.

but there are other benefits to teaching other “high income” jobs don’t provide.
shrugs Yeah...people who work poverty wages "function" because that's what it takes to survive. There are benefits of teaching jobs--like that they tend to be family friendly, and in the US, some of them (the govt. funded ones) offer health insurance and vacation time, while those in the private sector rarely do.

Women like bad boys. That’s what the “nice to me thing” means

Yes,women are encouraged to act a certain way but men are also becoming more feminine to be able to operate in today’s society

By kind I mean that rare type of person who goes out of their way to help others regardless of what they can do for them and when no one is watching.

yeah, being nice to animals is different than humans.

Women like men who walk dogs so maybe that’s something 🤔
Yes...kindness being someone who helps others regardless of what others do for them--it's not going to give the same "return" socially or financially. People with higher levels of agreeableness in big 5 tend to be poorer for example, and it doesn't translate into having more sex, but actually less. Could be many reasons why, but my point is that being "nice" doesn't translate as some boon to men or women...being "nice" in the way you describe "regardless of what they get back."

However, I am aware it's popular now days to pretend like women have all kinds of privileges men don't have--nice women are always rewarded with the things nice men are deprived of, women never have to struggle financially or work hard, sex is always a walk in the park for women--no such thing as rape or sexual assault etc. Not trying to have a pissing contest, but I personally think "being nice" doesn't correlate much with being rewarded for either gender, though it is more socially acceptable for women so I guess that's something.

Of course common ground is needed for any relationship but it’s like chemical bonds. They bond and react because of the missing pieces to each ones individual structure. (I’m not a a scientist but I hope you get me)

well women can’t just go round and test driving every mans penis so you won’t hear it from women because they won’t know for the most part. I was best friends with one girl who said her ex thought she didn’t like sex but she left him and slept with every guy she liked and loved to experiment. So your view on sex just depends on your past experiences. Women can feel one way then have sex with the right guy and feel totally different.
Yes--I agree that it is different with everyone.

yeah sex is different for everyone. But libido works inversely for men and women as they age. As women get older they want more sex and men need less.

there are external factors that get in the way but it just depends of how much sex a priority. Romance naturally decreases with time but you have to just make time for it like anything else.

some people don’t even try to understand. Just say the words and repeat the mistakes

I once dated a girl who liked me for being a good athlete but was suicidal because I wouldn’t spend all my time with her....that was fun at 15 😂
That sounds like a difficult thing to deal with at 15.

everyone’s a pervert just some people are better at hiding it

it correlates that if you don’t care about physical activity, don’t feel comfortable with your image and don’t like sex that all those things can be related.

yeah intuitives can get too stuck in our heads a lot

No one used to pick me because I’m black (I know, counter intuitive) but I just went and played anyways. One of the reasons I love basketball is because you can get really good by yourself
There are asexual people. And there are people that are further on that scale too, but not quite asexual. There are people who don't value sex that much as well.

Sure--they could be related. I've never cared for my image because of a lot of complex reasons. Some being about resentment at being valued for my body, which I think happens to some women. Some women love attention and some women do not.

I tend to care about physical activity for health and also because it allows me to do the other things I want to do, since I do like the outdoors. But I am not an athlete who's going to race to climb every peak. It's just not my thing. I also don't really want to attract most people, but that's not really a good reason not to care for one's body, imo.

That sucks that no one picked you for that reason--you must have lived in a place that didn't have a lot of black people...?
 

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Just out of curiosity, I wonder if it's called "abuse culture" when women sit in a corner and rationalize all the ways that everything is men's faults and how giving men a cerfew sounds like a good idea to them.
Is that sincere, or sarcastic and rhetorical?
 
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Well that sounds horrible. Glad to be celibate then. Also--I understand physical pleasure. I just don't think it's as important as other things.



Sounds kind of like a double standard. But I don't really care how people judge or view women or men who've had more/less sex.



I don't view children as dollar signs. I view them as human beings. And yes--a human being that needs to be supported by a community (as a child does) is a human being...not an "expense" in my eyes. Though I can see how for a woman who is faced between homelessness or...um...homelessness, would understand that children's needs are expensive.

But no--I don't view humans as dollars or "expenses" that should be brushed aside and forgotten about so I can profit.




shrugs Yeah...people who work poverty wages "function" because that's what it takes to survive. There are benefits of teaching jobs--like that they tend to be family friendly, and in the US, some of them (the govt. funded ones) offer health insurance and vacation time, while those in the private sector rarely do.



Yes...kindness being someone who helps others regardless of what others do for them--it's not going to give the same "return" socially or financially. People with higher levels of agreeableness in big 5 tend to be poorer for example, and it doesn't translate into having more sex, but actually less. Could be many reasons why, but my point is that being "nice" doesn't translate as some boon to men or women...being "nice" in the way you describe "regardless of what they get back."

However, I am aware it's popular now days to pretend like women have all kinds of privileges men don't have--nice women are always rewarded with the things nice men are deprived of, women never have to struggle financially or work hard, sex is always a walk in the park for women--no such thing as rape or sexual assault etc. Not trying to have a pissing contest, but I personally think "being nice" doesn't correlate much with being rewarded for either gender, though it is more socially acceptable for women so I guess that's something.



Yes--I agree that it is different with everyone.



That sounds like a difficult thing to deal with at 15.



There are asexual people. And there are people that are further on that scale too, but not quite asexual. There are people who don't value sex that much as well.

Sure--they could be related. I've never cared for my image because of a lot of complex reasons. Some being about resentment at being valued for my body, which I think happens to some women. Some women love attention and some women do not.

I tend to care about physical activity for health and also because it allows me to do the other things I want to do, since I do like the outdoors. But I am not an athlete who's going to race to climb every peak. It's just not my thing. I also don't really want to attract most people, but that's not really a good reason not to care for one's body, imo.

That sucks that no one picked you for that reason--you must have lived in a place that didn't have a lot of black people...?
I don’t understand what sounds horrible 😂 but okay. I’ve never heard anyone say “I understand physical pleasure but it’s not important”....interesting statement

Well. In a world where a woman who is decent looking can have sex whenever she chooses....and men can only have sex when women see him as high value...there is a double standard. It’s not about judging (you’re a perceiver anyway 😂) it’s just about understanding the different realities men and women live in

I just used expense because you used the word.

‘relative poverty’ not necessarily real poverty for the most part. But in the rare case in the western world women would be faced with real poverty she would have to give up her child for not being able to provide for it. But many women just either use the government or the court system to get the man to pay.

I think their is a social return to kindness. People are more likely to help you when you are down because they remember when you helped them. Many people are evil leeches and don’t return the favour but some will. Don’t know if you believe in Karma but there’s that too.

I wouldn’t say I’m referring to agreeableness but I get what you mean. I would say kindness can lead to sex sometimes. At least in the male reality. If you have lots of female friends and they really like you because you’re a kind and genuine person....they Will tell their friends and it makes you seem less threatening and easier for women to talk to because they know you’re not dangerous and women like to be treated with kindness from time to time. It’s not the only factor but it can definitely get you browny points you didn’t know about because of how people talk about you when you’re not in the room.

women have always had privileges men don’t have. I feel like speaking in absolutes like “always” and “never” is disingenuous. There are often times women have those things. Like men pay for the first date. The man has to be the provider. Women get custody of the children. It’s more likely for a woman to marry a rich man and be a housewife. If all else fails she can just sell her vagina for money (only fan culture and the like). Sex is a walk in the park for women. Sex for men is literally a war zone in the jungle like the Vietnam war😂. Rape and sexual assault are awful and disgusting...I have nothing to say about that but it’s not even like women can rape men or would have to...

I don’t know what it’s like to be raised like a woman but I guess conforming to societal expectations is more important to be accepted into the modern world as they more dependent than men on “the tribe”

There are people who don’t value sex but those are the minority or the trauma victims.
Women don’t provide emotional support for men so what else would men value women for apart from their sexual pleasure and baby making. If I open up and tell a woman about my problems she’s going to treat me like I’m weak and lose respect for me. Men don’t have as many needs. Emotional satisfaction/Physical pleasure are the only two things men want from others. Women only provide those things with their bodies. You can resent it but it just is what it is.

if you don’t want to be valued for just your bodies then start listening to men’s problems without the “am i your mother” mentality and just be a friend. But that’s just not how women’s brains are wired

I dunno, it depends on your physical make up. Most women don’t like to exercise as much. I mean....when I was young I didn’t care how I looked. My body was awful but I was happy that it wasn’t priority to stress about. Most women care about their appearance but I guess if you don’t it can be like a weight off your shoulders.

Yeah I live in a village in the north of England, it doesn’t get much more white than that 😂
 
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