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Fair enough. I find, by context, that my preference changes and while attempting to quantify it numerically there isn't (so far) a clear inclination one way or another across my life. If this changes, I'm more than open to it.

Investigations are ongoing. Although if I'm not careful, Reckful will be along to tell me how wrong I am.
I would bet that you are already differentiated your functions enough to have a well-defined ego but have issues with your ability to make sense of it.
From a preliminary view I think what you write strongly correlates with intuitive Fi type, even by looking past of how overly dismissive and insecure you express yourself and self-contradict at times.
 

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Problem here is I'm kinda between both with a lean towards J so some things on the list irritates me while others I do myself.
 

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Hmm. IRl IDK most people's types so this kind of talk is mostly abstract to me. I tend to blame a certain type of common workplace struggle on 's types' or 'p people' more or less arbitrarily.

One thing that has always gotten the blankface from me is this thing of offering 'likes schedule' as some kind of easy-base instant key to identifying a judger. TBH most of this article seems to be simply that. 'judgers like to schedule, perceivers be all 'whee!' /endoftopic'. For one thing, I never felt like that represents me. And for another, even to the extent that it's true it doesn't feel to me like it really gets to the root.

That could be because I'm a particular subtype of judger, of course. I have significant and recurring struggles with certain teammates; in fact it's recurring right now. Not once [at least as I recall] has that struggle ever been about 'time'. The judgers-be-all-clock-fascists thing has alwYs felt to me like it misstates and undermines what the real issue is.
 

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I would bet that you are already differentiated your functions enough to have a well-defined ego but have issues with your ability to make sense of it.
From a preliminary view I think what you write strongly correlates with intuitive Fi type, even by looking past of how overly dismissive and insecure you express yourself and self-contradict at times.
When you say contradict, do you mean I contradict in what I say about myself? Or in behaviour? It's an interesting topic for me because from experience I see confidence as based on either an external system of approval or a bloody-minded internal system based in nothing but emotional content. Consistency in that area is luck-of-the-draw and based on what genetic material you spawned from.

And I'm most likely ESFJ.
 

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What's the correlation of these judging/perceiving traits with the eight functions of our personality type? Like how mbti types are simplification of the actual function theory, of Jungian. Is the J/P simplification like that?
I don't know if it is related to P/J but I assume it is; Helen Fisher said that Directors ( MBTI's Thinkers) has a deep, intense focus (due to Testosterone) while Negociators (Feelers) has web-thinking and can appear more scatter-brained (due to the influence of Estrogen & Oxytocin). These also tends to have a more difficult time making up their minds and live in a world of "it depends". But the need for stability, scheduals and rutine she connected with the Builders (SJ's, which behaviour is connected with Serotonine), and the curiosity and need to explore with the Exploreres (P's I assume, driven by Dopamine)
Also I wonder how much lifes surcomestances effects our tendency to to judge and persieve, for example the need for structure and planning would likely be different for a divorsed woman with 10 kids, a job and studies on the side, then for an unemployed, childless and married person.
 

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@Worriedfunction
When you say contradict, do you mean I contradict in what I say about myself? Or in behavior?
What you say with your behavior, mostly. I didn't read you thoroughly, though.

I see confidence as based on either an external system of approval or a bloody-minded internal system based in nothing but emotional content. Consistency in that area is luck-of-the-draw and based on what genetic material you spawned from.
Don't you find how such perspective harmoniously aligns with the hypothesis of you being a feeling type?
I view confidence as one of the many tools in my box, which can be fueled and oriented with all sorts of things potentially, not only via isolated emotion, blind belief, or someone else's approval.
The quality of genes may surely contribute to how efficiently such tool will be utilized, but so can many other factors.
 

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I don't know about that.
Perceivers don't drive me crazy, and I don't seem to drive my perceiver friends crazy either.
They seem to appreciate the structure I give, while I appreciate that they remind me to relax and enjoy the present.

That being said, rigid control-freaks and living messes drive everyone crazy, even their fellow control-freaks, their fellow living messes, or themselves.
 

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@Worriedfunction

What you say with your behavior, mostly. I didn't read you thoroughly, though.


Don't you find how such perspective harmoniously aligns with the hypothesis of you being a feeling type?
I view confidence as one of the many tools in my box, which can be fueled and oriented with all sorts of things potentially, not only via isolated emotion, blind belief, or someone else's approval.
The quality of genes may surely contribute to how efficiently such tool will be utilized, but so can many other factors.
In answer to the question: since all decisions have a basis in emotion in order to create a hierarchy of values, no. But I have no problem with being a feeling type. I don't see how confidence can be a tool when it appears to be an a priori assessment in phenomenological experiences, have you got some examples?

For example, confidence is known when seen and experienced, but the science of where it comes from is muddy at best and nearly all explanations fall back on it as a belief system with it's root in emotions.
 

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@Worriedfunction
have you got some examples?
Resistance to stress/failures generally, gains in creativity (as was shown by some studies, but I don't have links around me), protection from undesired external or internal emotional influence.
I don't see how it being a priory assessment has to necessarily be a problem, confidence can serve like attitude without distorting resulting judgments when employed carefully.
It can be affected by non-emotional content, where the strength of the influence would at some levels turn it into a basic preliminary anticipation/expectation about some properties of an object.

since all decisions have a basis in emotion
Not necessarily. Or, even if they do, that won't be a useful way of interpreting at things. We would require another set of words to differentiate primordial psychical drives from immediate feelings. And from "complex" non-immediate emotions of anticipations of emotions.
But I do agree that every thinking/decision necessarily relies on some set of a priori assumptions/beliefs.
 

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@Worriedfunction

Resistance to stress/failures generally, gains in creativity (as was shown by some studies, but I don't have links around me), protection from undesired external or internal emotional influence.
I don't see how it being a priory assessment has to necessarily be a problem, confidence can serve like attitude without distorting resulting judgments when employed carefully.
It can be affected by non-emotional content, where the strength of the influence would at some levels turn it into a basic preliminary anticipation/expectation about some properties of an object.
Interesting way of looking at it, however, it's difficult for me to operate from a perspective of imagination of 'what might be' as I tend to default to 'only what I already know'. This isn't great for growth, so I tend to rely on experience, and my experience hasn't shown me anything that would allow me to perceive your example. I do acknowledge that your experience may be completely different, though. So most people I've known who were confident, seemed to be so either on an immaterial basis that couldn't be quantified, just some vague sense of 'rightness' in their conception of their own actions. Or they had an attachment to an external sense of achievement, usually through commonly-held forms of status.

I just find it hard to see confidence as anything but a deeply internal motivation, which relates to your point about primordial psychical drives, but how one arrives at confidence I have no idea. It's like a cat trying to explain why it chases movement.

Not necessarily. Or, even if they do, that won't be a useful way of interpreting at things. We would require another set of words to differentiate primordial psychical drives from immediate feelings. And from "complex" non-immediate emotions of anticipations of emotions.
But I do agree that every thinking/decision necessarily relies on some set of a priori assumptions/beliefs.
In terms of what is useful, can it ever be synonymous with truth?

I do actually understand that emotions, unless confronted, can be an unending source of misery and that you don't necessarily solve emotional issues by indulging them.
 

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Hmm. IRl IDK most people's types so this kind of talk is mostly abstract to me. I tend to blame a certain type of common workplace struggle on 's types' or 'p people' more or less arbitrarily.

One thing that has always gotten the blankface from me is this thing of offering 'likes schedule' as some kind of easy-base instant key to identifying a judger. TBH most of this article seems to be simply that. 'judgers like to schedule, perceivers be all 'whee!' /endoftopic'. For one thing, I never felt like that represents me. And for another, even to the extent that it's true it doesn't feel to me like it really gets to the root.

That could be because I'm a particular subtype of judger, of course. I have significant and recurring struggles with certain teammates; in fact it's recurring right now. Not once [at least as I recall] has that struggle ever been about 'time'. The judgers-be-all-clock-fascists thing has alwYs felt to me like it misstates and undermines what the real issue is.
For me it is helpful to locate stress points that I might otherwise misattribute to another factor that is less useful. The shoe fits, so I wear it.

No one is “the same” over all contexts and lifespan in terms of behavior, but I sort of look at it like taking an average for what behavior tends to be the most disruptive/affecting in my day to day life, and how I tend to approach different circumstances before my experiential “wisdom” has a chance to make an impact within the different contexts.

The impulse towards rigidity and order, and subsequent fear/fascination/preoccupation with being “thwarted” by outer chaos, is a consistent undercurrent.
 

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For me it is helpful to locate stress points that I might otherwise misattribute to another factor that is less useful.
True dat. Which is why I try to dissociate from the clockbound image. Being clockbound or trying to accommodate someone who is. ... That's not the issue.

I don't believe it's about time. It's about ownership of the processes of my own mind because I need my own mind and my own processes in order to function well. It could be partly about the ni, which means it wouldn't apply for every judger.
 

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My biggest issue with a few P types I know is when they are perpetually late to everythinng. You'll be waiting for them to arrive at your house for an evening, for 1 1/2 hours! That is taking the p*ss. Now I am not a strong J so I can cope with people not being on time to the minute, but that is just too long and too rude.
Yeah, I am a P-type (I think) but I am like Jimmy Hoffa when it comes to being on time for an appt. If your late, you're saying something. It shows a lack of respect for the other party and their precious time. It is offensive. If your late, you are in effect saying, "my time is worth more than yours", or "I am more important than you are". It is selfish and immature.

I am with the J's on this — being laid back and or whatever is no excuse for not keeping your commitments.
 

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Yeah, I am a P-type (I think) but I am like Jimmy Hoffa when it comes to being on time for an appt. If your late, you're saying something. It shows a lack of respect for the other party and their precious time. It is offensive. If your late, you are in effect saying, "my time is worth more than yours", or "I am more important than you are". It is selfish and immature.

I am with the J's on this — being laid back and or whatever is no excuse for not keeping your commitments.
I am compulsively early. I can always bring a book.
 

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@Worriedfunction
as anything but a deeply internal motivation
I wouldn't describe a helpful sort of confidence as "deep", because, in my view, it has to be specialized, shaped by the object to an extent.
It would work similar if not equal to motivations, manifesting your belief on an emotional level that it would make sense to invest more of your resources into some endeavor, stimulating you effectively.
Attachment to an external sense of achievement, simply by being "attachment" already makes confidence "informed" in a way or sets the foundation for it.

How would one arrive at this confidence? Not directly.
Through self-evaluation, for example.
If it is an activity in relation to which confidence needs to be built, you might ascertain your average levels of performance in it. Or how such performance progresses over time.
Or may progress over time if you influence in a way some of its factors. Tap into similar experiences and related confidence levels and convert them to your case.
Afterwards, once you manage to collect enough material, you will necessarily arrive at some rough general estimation of your relevant qualities, or will see the outline of the path to develop satisfactory levels for them.
The emotional component of such generic estimation that transcends individual instances of activity in question is what will constitute your confidence, for better or worse.
Confidence can be low as well, and this may still be useful.

In terms of what is useful, can it ever be synonymous with truth?
Rarely. The utility is shaped by the definition of truth but isn't equal to it, I think, as it also concerns itself with application.
Truth is more like end in itself. As it is the case with isolated application of Thinking in the way Jung described it.
In our case specifically, the reductionist approach would be best viewed as just descent within a multi-leveled structure of "truth".
Indeed, our mind may be composed of excitations within a set of quantum fields, but such a level of discourse would move us no closer to understanding how the mind works.
 

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Why Judgers and Perceivers Drive Each Other Crazy
Only people who are unable to understand others have this issue.
 
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Discussion Starter #37
Only people who are unable to understand others have this issue.
Which is the entire reason for posting articles like this and giving people the opportunity to discuss the topic. It helps foster greater understanding.
 
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I don't agree with this, I don't plan out my future because I'm Ti dominant, most INTPs seem like eternal seekers/searchers in fact. They're trying to transpose J tendencies onto the "internal" world of IxxPs and it just doesn't make sense, it's just plain contradictory. In fact IxxP types seem to have a particularly hard time with structuring their lives even compared to ExxPs.

Judging and Perceiving are heavily correlated with trait Conscientiousness, but this is completely independent of introversion/extroversion. I think that most in this thread agree with this article is a sign of confirmation bias, many are interpreting this to fit with the commonly excepted understanding of cognitive functions. I personally don't feel externally or internally Judging and I don't observe this split in others either, most who are organized externally are internally organized.
 
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Discussion Starter #39
I dont' agree with this, I don't plan out my future because I'm Ti dominant, most INTPs seem like eternal seekers/searchers in fact. They're trying to transpose J tendencies into the "internal" world of IxxPs and it just doesn't make sense, it's just plain contradictory. In fact IxxP types seem to have a particularly hard time with structuring their lives even compared to ExxPs.

Judging and Perceiving are heavily correlated with trait Conscientiousness, but this is completely independent of introversion/extroversion. I think that most in this thread agree with this article is a sign of confirmation bias, many are interpreting this to fit with the commonly excepted understanding of cognitive functions. I personally don't feel externally or internally Judging and I don't observe this split in others either, most who are organized externally are internally organized.
I accept your perspective as equally valid as mine. This does not mean I have to always agree with your perspective, nor you with mine. We should be able to clearly articulate those differences and strive to make them understandable to those with whom we disagree.

I think that's what has to happen for us to bridge the gaps between P or J, E or I, or T, or F, or N or S. We just have to be able to acknowledge the validity of perspectives that are different from our own, even if we don't agree with them. Then we can construct a model of understanding that allows both perspectives to be acknowledged and a new level of understanding can be achieved.
 

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I am undoubtedly a Perceiver from these two checklists, but the older I get I sympathize with Judgers. I guess that fits with me being an IP type. I think there's a line between being irresponsible and preferring spontaneity and freedom. I make tentative schedules and itineraries sometimes, but keep them flexible and allow for different possibilities that may arise. Then we can just come up with an alternative. However, someone being consistently late so that the entire schedule gets thrown out the window I find irritating. To me that demonstrates immaturity and a lack of respect for the other people involved and their time. I don't like to feel rushed, so when I have the ability I always make sure I have the time I need to do something, which becomes important when you don't start right away like the ISTJs.
 
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