Personality Cafe banner

1 - 20 of 26 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
10 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
This is my first post on Personality Cafe :tongue:

German philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche is generally typed as an INTJ however upon studying his works and his personal life it becomes obvious that he is most likely an INFJ. This is not surprising as many male INFJ's are mistyped as INTJ's. Lets first look at Carl Jungs Typing of Nietzsche.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Psychological Types §242): The fact that it is just the psychological functions of intuition on the one hand and sensation and instinct on the other that Nietzsche emphasizes must be characteristic of his own personal psychology. He must surely be reckoned an intuitive with leanings towards introversion. His lack of rational moderation and conciseness argues for the intuitive type in general.

- Jung Considered Nietzsche Introverted and Intuitive IN__?

(Psychological Types §632): Just as we might take Darwin as an example of the normal extraverted thinking type, the normal introverted thinking type could be represented by Kant. The one speaks with facts, the other relies on the subjective factor. Darwin ranges over the wide field of objective reality. Kant restricts himself to a critique of knowledge. Cuvier and Nietzsche would form an even sharper contrast.

- Jung Considered Nietzsche to possess Introverted Thinking (Ti)

“[Nietzsche’s] main function is surely intuition, which would be up above, connected with the brain, with consciousness, and that is in opposition to that which is in opposition to the things below, namely the other three functions.” (Jung: Nietzsche’s Zarathustra, vol. I p. 1082)
“Nietzsche as an intuitive simply touches upon a thing and off he goes. He does not dwell upon the subject, though in the long run one can say that he really does dwell upon it by amplification. But he doesn’t deal with things in a logical way, going into the intellectual process of elucidation; he just catches such an intuition on the wing and leaves it, going round and round amplifying, so that in the end we get a complete picture, but by intuitive means, not by logical means.” – Jung: Seminar on Zarathustra (1934-39) vol. II p. 1083

- Jung Considered Nietzsche to be a (Ni) Dominant type

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So was Nietzsche INTJ or INFJ? Lets look at the functions.

INTJ:
Dominant: Introverted Intuition
Auxiliary: Extraverted Thinking
Tertiary: Introverted Feeling
Inferior: Extraverted Sensing

INFJ
Dominant: Introverted Intuition
Auxiliary: Extraverted Feeling
Tertiary: Introverted Thinking
Inferior: Extraverted Sensing

was Nietzsche an NT "Rational" or NF "Idealist"

"Thoughts.- Thoughts are the shadows of our feelings always
darker, emptier. and simpler."
Nietzsche (Gay Science Pg. 216)

“It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book.”
(Ni)

Ida von Miaskowski remarked in her memoir, published 7 years after his death:
"In the eighties, when Nietzsche's later writings containing some of the oft-quoted sharp words against women appeared, my husband sometimes told me jokingly not to tell people of my friendly relations with Nietzsche, since this was not very flattering for me. It was just a joke. My husband, like myself, always kept friendly memories of Nietzsche [...] his behavior precisely towards women was so sensitive, so natural and comradely, that even today in old age I cannot regard Nietzsche as a despiser of women."

Lou Andreas-Salomé, who knew Nietzsche very well, and claimed that he had proposed to her (according to her, she refused him) claimed there was something feminine in Nietzsche's "spiritual nature", and that he had considered genius to be a feminine genius.

Salomé begins with a firsthand account of his psyche and persona. Her main contention is that Nietzsche's personality was dualistic and that this in turn permeates a dualistic philosophy. This dual personality, furthermore, was occasioned by a tension between a fabricated, pretended outer shell and a genuine, forbidden inner element—the tension in which the artificial migrant was in a perpetual struggle to suppress and hide the restive native.

- This is an example of strong Fe displayed by Nietzsche. Wearing a social mask, a "dual personality". INTJ's are generally less inclined to social niceties because of Fi.

Then, in the midst of these dark and gloomy remarks, the reader's image of Nietzsche's bony, rugged features and Prussian military mustache is suddenly shattered by Salomé's description of a timid and terribly insecure person with a soft and clear voice, revealing hands, and feminine mildness (9–10). More specifically on this last characteristic, she writes: "Usually, he displayed great courtesy, almost feminine mildness" (24). Strangely enough, Nietzsche himself considered politeness as a feminine quality and notes its opposite, "rudeness," as its masculine antidote. For example, in Ecce Homo, he states, "You see, I do not want rudeness to be underestimated: it is by far the most human form of contradiction and, in the midst of effeminacy, one of our greatest virtues" ("Wise" 5). In addition, Salomé says, "In Nietzsche's spiritual nature was something—in heightened dimension—that was feminine" (29–30; see also 49, 54).

- Lou Salome arguably knew Nietzsche better than anyone (he proposed to her) and she described him as feminine, soft, and spiritual- all qualities more easily attributed to "NF" than "NT"

“And it is emphatically clear to us that the degree to which his self-immolation and moody withdrawal becomes more exclusive, the significance of the periodic masquerade also becomes deeper, so that the true being retreats ever more imperceptibly from the forms of expression and appearance. Already, in The Wanderer and His Shadow (HATH, 175), he points to ‘mediocrity as mask.’ ‘Mediocrity is the happiest mask which the reflective person can wear, because the great mass or mediocre do not think of it as a mask. And yet, he assumes that mask for their sake, in order not to provoke them and not seldom out of a sense of pity and goodness.’… [And in BGE] ‘occasionally folly itself is the mask for an unfortunate unholy all-too-knowing knowledge.’ … Only his idea-masks remain, like symbols and emblems, open to interpretation, while for us he has already become what he once signed himself as in a letter to a friend: ‘The eternally lost’ (July 8, 1881 in Sils Maria). (N. p.11).

"Ah, we lonely ones and free spirits. ... We wish for nothing more than truth and straightforwardness ... and despite our most ardent wishes we cannot help our actions being smothered in a cloud of false opinion, attempted compromises, semi-concessions, charitable silence, and erroneous interpretations. ... We hate more than death the thought that [such] pretense should be necessary, and such incessant chafing against these things makes us volcanic and menacing. From time to time we avenge ourselves for all our enforced concealment and compulsory self-restraint. We emerge from our cells with terrible faces, our words and deeds are then explosions, and it is not beyond the verge of possibility that we perish through ourselves. Thus dangerously do I live!"

- Said every INFJ ever


Greg Whitlock: "[In his work on the Pre-Socratics] Nietzsche dons the mask of classical philologist at one moment and then violates the accepted bound of that discipline the next. ... Nietzsches's command of Greek and Latin was less than masterful and sometimes even deficient, especially with regards to his indifference to participles. Finally, and perhaps most disturbing, at several places Nietzsche seems to have fabricated spurious quotations, while at many others he changes the Greek or Latin text without notification."

- (Ti) Has an internal rule set, external rules are bent and even ignored.

Nietzsche began his career as a classical philologist—a scholar of Greek and Roman textual criticism
- Nietzsche interested in arts and humanities not sciences which is more "NF"

Hardly anybody read or took an interest in Nietzsches work but he kept going!
- I think an INTJ would be rational enough to know when to give up.

Goethe (INFJ) was considered by Nietzsche to be the closest thing to his "Ubermensch" (Super-man/ideal-man)

Many INFJ men appear as INTJ's. They are usually outwardly cool calm and collected while inside they may be sensitive and full of emotion that tends to get repressed and not outwardly demonstrated. Nietzsche's emotion however appeared very strongly in his writing and poetry.

Nietzsche very interested in religion, spirituality, and self improvement which is more "NF". Intuitively understood the human psyche and what motivates people on a deep level "NF". Very Idealistic "NF". Was described by many to have feminine qualities (no offence to NF men but introverted NF types in general are usually quiet, sensitive and dreamy which can be seen as feminine). Hid those qualities. Deeply sensitive and romantic though again this is something he would largely suppress. He proposed to Lou Andreas Salome on the second date- Hopeless romantic. Was ultimately rejected and wrote love poems about her which got added into the second version of his book "The Gay Science." Went through periods of isolation however incidentally this is when he created many of his best works. (I think introverts in general do this but maybe Ni or Ti doms more-so) Often talked about and described as wearing social masks and creating a surface personality to hide his true personality "Fe". Ideas such as "eternal recurrence" with often zero validation on objective facts and widely held logic "Ti". He was likely quite non-confrontational "NF" as he made strong statements about individuals like Wagner but did this through writing and not really to their face "Fe." Considered by friends and students to be a warm friendly character and could chit-chat at great lengths "Fe"- an INTJ would not put on this charade. Has strong value systems "NF". Quiet and gentle. Most of his logic is emotionally driven "NF". Mystical and prophetic...


Nietzsches writing is emotionally driven. It oozes emotion and can be somewhat chaotic. He uses rich language, metaphor and a lot of exclamation points. To me reading Nietzsche feels like you are in his room having a conversation with him.

Here are some tips he gave on writing in a collection of letters to Lou-Salome. Basically he believed ideas should be felt and not just understood which I think may be what separates "NT" and "NF" writers.

- The richness of life reveals itself through a richness of gestures. One must learn to feel everything — the length and retarding of sentences, interpunctuations, the choice of words, the pausing, the sequence of arguments — like gestures.
- Style ought to prove that one believes in an idea; not only that one thinks it but also feels it.
- It is not good manners or clever to deprive one’s reader of the most obvious objections. It is very good manners and very clever to leave it to one’s reader alone to pronounce the ultimate quintessence of our wisdom.

One of the love poems he wrote about Lou-Salome:
Song of a Theocritical Goatherder
Here I lie with intestinal blight,
Bedbugs advancing;
Over there, still noise and light;
I hear them dancing.
She promised-she is late She
would be mine;
But like a dog I wait,
And there's no sign.
She swore again and again:
Was it by rote?
Does she run after all men,
Just like a goat?
You give yourself such airs:
Who gave you silk?
How do I know who shares
Your goatlike ilk?
We're poisoned by love when we wait,
It makes us barbaric:

Nietzsche was most likely INFJ 5w6 or 5w4.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
510 Posts
I disagree in general. I think you've picked and chosen evidences that are in line with your argument while overlooking ones that characterize him as who he was overall. Most aspects you've picked equally apply to myself also, which, in line with your reasoning, should make me an INFJ as well, which I am not.

I could buy your argument more if you've argued that he was a hyper-militant INTP (if such thing exists), but that is an unlikely possibility as well. I've never seen a Ti/Fe-user who was as cutting, authoritative, and idealistic as Friedrich Nietzsche was.

And please, do not consider great courtesy to be something solely feminine, and thus automatically NF. When his contemporaries talked about his "almost female like courtesy," you should keep in mind that they said such things based on their era and culture (late 18th century German society; and we all know how Germans felt about traditional gender roles in that era).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
448 Posts
@Amor_Fati
I can see your point, but I think that you do have to take into account that they are just aspects of his behavior, the cognitive functions are a theory after all, there is not always necessarily a way of talking or being that is specifically "Ne" or "Fi", and when one person looks at a text and thinks this is Si-Fe, another might find connections for Fi-ne, or Ni-Fe.

As for myself, I'm quite a sensitive person, and I always had the ability to read people quite well (well that is what they have told me), one could consider this Fi, by trying to place myself into their situation I can understand what they are going through, but I don't have to do that, I somehow already know, which lead me to think I had Fe, but then it seems I'm rather direct and others see me as a well-organized, someone who can hold his ground in a debate, someone who is logical, and then some see me as very emotional and sensitive. Some say I talk a lot about my personal view, and others tell me I can be objective and very impersonal. I would say all perspectives are pretty much correct, on different points in time, or taking into account the possible perspectives. Though I think that when you take me as a whole, there are so many things to take into account, my mood, recent events, the fact that I could change my mind about sometimes and take a new approach - this could make it incredibly hard to get a good grasp of someone, they could not show you everything, you could misread what they mean.

What I would like to say with all of this is that it's going to be hard to accurately type someone, especially if you have to do it indirectly going off of the opinions of others. Like Nox said, you could just be absorbing a bunch of information that is just not in conflict with your perception, while missing out on other possibilities. It's not impossible to type others accurately, but it does require making assumptions which could end up being completely wrong, you would be best off considering as much info as possible and at the same time being close to this person you're going to type could reduce the amount of assumptions you make too. But since we are typing a dead guy, that's not the most viable option.

I think that he is in fact an INTJ, though maybe one who runs his unfiltered Ni impressions too much through his Fi, spinning concepts too much around in his mind, losing a bit of contact with actual reality, but then again, that's just my perception.

Tangent:
 
But, the cognitive functions might be a very blurry lens to view people through, not that I'm an expert, but sometimes it does seem like I'm doing myself a disservice by looking at people through that lens, including me. It's a great point to start, though nowadays I find myself being far more attracted to the dichotomies, after all it has some scientific validity. Though even if the cognitive functions are just a theory, it's quite an interesting theory to dive into.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
583 Posts
I used to think Nieztsche was an Infj but now i am pretty sure he was an Intj. Just focus on his critique on realism and logic of language: that's clearly Te, and not Ti. Ti has a tendency to neglect facts or to coerce them into agreement with the idea, selecting only those that support idea; furthermore, Ti seizes upon the similarities of the concrete case, dismissing irrelevancies. And that's exactly what Nieztsche criticizes.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10 Posts
Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
Yes I think the big issue is Ti vs Te. I thought he was an Ni dom with strong Ti so I assumed INFJ and collected info based on that. I did not have a good grasp of the differences between Ti and Te when I wrote this post but now I can't edit it. I now consider him to be INTJ. His philosophy is actually very objective, most philosophers imprint a lot of their subjective feelings and personal thoughts into their work. Nietzsche viewed things very rationally and objectively (except for his views on women). Alot of Nietzsches work was based simply on examining widely held beliefs and tearing them apart. I would consider him a Te user and Ni dom now so INTJ makes sense.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
468 Posts
Okay let me begin by saying that as an INFJ, have always identified strongly with Nieztsche's writing. However, I do lean toward him being an INTJ...even though would gladly welcome him as a member of our own. ;) Sometimes...people even guess that I'm an INTJ even though my heart tends to win the battle over my brain. In class and at work, there is this tendency for me to use my head more and that could throw people off the trail. It's not intentional, nor am I trying to be a different person, it just happens due to the needs/tasks at hand.

At best, my opinion is that Nieztsche is an INTJ that was in touch with his emotions. That could be seen as being a "hybrid type" for lack of a better term. Overall, he does appear to have been quite philosophical, direct, independent, and yet deeply feeling at the same time. Although I rarely share a quote from Wikipedia...thought it might be good to do here:

"On 3 January 1889, Nietzsche suffered a mental collapse. Two policemen approached him after he caused a public disturbance in the streets of Turin. What happened remains unknown, but an often-repeated tale from shortly after his death states that Nietzsche witnessed the flogging of a horse at the other end of the Piazza Carlo Alberto, ran to the horse, threw his arms up around its neck to protect it, and then collapsed to the ground." - source Wikipedia

The above could occur with any type, but could see this happening to an INFJ due to us "taking on others feelings because we care so deeply. (whether this be a person or an animal) But again, he probably is an INTJ that has some leaning toward us. Could see him as a mixed type at best. For instance, if you mix a Labrador Retriever with a Poodle, you end up with an awesome dog called a Labradoodle. My son has had one for over 8 years now. :)

Thankfully, most people aren't pure types other wise it could cause dysfunction if we were 100% introverted or 100% extroverted and so on.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,331 Posts
Okay let me begin by saying that as an INFJ, have always identified strongly with Nieztsche's writing. However, I do lean toward him being an INTJ...even though would gladly welcome him as a member of our own. ;) Sometimes...people even guess that I'm an INTJ even though my heart tends to win the battle over my brain. In class and at work, there is this tendency for me to use my head more and that could throw people off the trail. It's not intentional, nor am I trying to be a different person, it just happens due to the needs/tasks at hand.

At best, my opinion is that Nieztsche is an INTJ that was in touch with his emotions. That could be seen as being a "hybrid type" for lack of a better term. Overall, he does appear to have been quite philosophical, direct, independent, and yet deeply feeling at the same time. Although I rarely share a quote from Wikipedia...thought it might be good to do here:

"On 3 January 1889, Nietzsche suffered a mental collapse. Two policemen approached him after he caused a public disturbance in the streets of Turin. What happened remains unknown, but an often-repeated tale from shortly after his death states that Nietzsche witnessed the flogging of a horse at the other end of the Piazza Carlo Alberto, ran to the horse, threw his arms up around its neck to protect it, and then collapsed to the ground." - source Wikipedia

The above could occur with any type, but could see this happening to an INFJ due to us "taking on others feelings because we care so deeply. (whether this be a person or an animal) But again, he probably is an INTJ that has some leaning toward us. Could see him as a mixed type at best. For instance, if you mix a Labrador Retriever with a Poodle, you end up with an awesome dog called a Labradoodle. My son has had one for over 8 years now. :)

Thankfully, most people aren't pure types other wise it could cause dysfunction if we were 100% introverted or 100% extroverted and so on.
INTJ does not = lack of emotions/feelings, deep or otherwise. INTJ = not spewing emotions/feelings all over the place publicly. Feelings/emotions are extremely personal and private to us. They are not, as a general rule, for the public's consumption.

I'd have not reacted the same as Nietzsche during this flogging of the horse, however. I'd have not ran up to the horse and wrap my arms around it to protect it. I would have ran to the person flogging the horse and wrapped my hands around their neck, however. I do not suffer injustice against innocents (such as animals, children, elderly, handicapped, etc) lightly.

As for Nietzsche being an INTJ or INFJ... I have no idea. I don't type others. But it seems you've all sussed it out fairly well. :wink:
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
16,000 Posts
Yes I think the big issue is Ti vs Te. I thought he was an Ni dom with strong Ti so I assumed INFJ and collected info based on that. I did not have a good grasp of the differences between Ti and Te when I wrote this post but now I can't edit it. I now consider him to be INTJ. His philosophy is actually very objective, most philosophers imprint a lot of their subjective feelings and personal thoughts into their work. Nietzsche viewed things very rationally and objectively (except for his views on women). Alot of Nietzsches work was based simply on examining widely held beliefs and tearing them apart. I would consider him a Te user and Ni dom now so INTJ makes sense.
I think he is subjective, which would fit with a Ni dom too I guess. He is like Freud. They see everything as a power struggle. Will to power is Ni-Se. Ni is an amplifier of the extroverted judging function of Fe or Te. INxJ are like armchair ESTPs, or SPs in general. They put down the power in idea the way that the SP does in action.

Malcolm X is listed as an ESTP. In his autobiography he talks about reading Nietzsche and other guys in prison. He said they talked too much, and didn't do anything. Malcolm X is a man of action. They implement the vision of the NJ. Malcolm X was the man of action in Elijah's Muhammad's dream. They go on the hero's journey. Not the NJ. The people on the quest are pawns in the NJ game of chess. Luke Skywalker, those hobbits, etc.

Hitler is similar to Nietzsche too. The will to power and deification of strength and will of nature. It is like forgotten magic that is dormant and decaying in man.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,140 Posts
I don't think someone who would come up with the Übermensch could be a Fe aux, his Fi his very much there throughout his work.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
347 Posts
He's a very Fi INTJ in my opinion, or more accurately, he was extremely aware of the limits of logic and objectivity and the fact that personal bias is inevitable. Instead of trying to hide that fact he plunged right through it and was very open about his bias. His ethics is very Fi, very anti-communal in my opinion.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,506 Posts
Nietzsche does not exercise Ni-Te. He uses Ni-Ti. Jung certainly thought so, and I mean... he doesn't exactly write about the kinds of things Te has access to. I don't see how anyone could think he arrived at his ideas with Te. How does one even think about such nebulous and abstract things in terms of compiling data and evidence? What data even is there to support ideas such as his?

INTJs use Ni-Te. INFJs use Ni-Ti. He would be an INFJ then.

I see the point everyone is making about Fi. It is confusing. One doesn't typically spot an INTJ by his Fi, though...

Nietzsche might sound like Fi throughout his writings, but consider his purpose for writing. Was he not writing in service of others? Did he not think of himself as a kind of messiah figure? He certainly seemed to flirt with the idea of himself as the counterpoint to Christ and Zarathustra, thus burdening himself with responsibility for mankind.

I would sooner believe he is a Ni / (tortured) Fe / Ti INFJ than a Ni / Te / (inflated) Fi INTJ.

And, again, Jung implied once (as OP pointed out) and outright stated once ("His aphoristic writings are expressive of his introverted intellectual side") that Nietzsche uses Ti, so you have that to reckon with as well.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
152 Posts
"His ethics is very Fi, very anti-communal in my opinion"

This is wrong. Nietzsche is extremely communal minded, he doesn't simply say this is what I feel and this shall be, rather he has a rigorous and coherent idea of what is right, wrong, and just.

Not only that, but being a political philosopher his knowledge doesn't come from the abstract eternal truth or data, but from analysing the minds of those around him.

Truth discovered in the souls of men.

Just because Nietzsche seems individualistic doesn't make him so. He was primarily concerned with the 'whole', with reality in its full sense, but grasped via human minds.

Nietzsche wasn't anti-justice, in fact he was pro-justice. Just not the justice common today.

He's definitely a Introverted Intuition user. I'm not quite sure if he's INTJ or INFJ.

But his whole work can be seen as defending the soul and life style (way of life) of the introvert against the extroverted masses.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
152 Posts
Nietzsche does not exercise Ni-Te. He uses Ni-Ti. Jung certainly thought so, and I mean... he doesn't exactly write about the kinds of things Te has access to. I don't see how anyone could think he arrived at his ideas with Te. How does one even think about such nebulous and abstract things in terms of compiling data and evidence? What data even is there to support ideas such as his?
"For psychology is once more the path to the fundamental problems"

"The human soul and its limits, the range of man's inner experiences hitherto attained, the heights, depths, and distances of these experiences, the entire history of the soul UP TO THE PRESENT TIME, and its still unexhausted possibilities: this is the preordained hunting-domain for a born psychologist and lover of a "big hunt""

For Nietzsche the act of philosophy (which is the act of finding the fundamental problems. Note: Nietzsche's Platonic language) must proceed first via psychology, via the minds of men.

Truth isn't apprehended from data, statistics, empirical science, etc. but from analysing the desires of the soul.

One needs to be able to empathise with the many different souls to understand what goes on in them (perhaps suggesting Fe?).

In any case Nietzsche's philosophy is derived from a sort of social psychology, truth extracted from the social consciousness.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15 Posts
I think Nietzsche was an INTJ 1w9 who went deep into his 4 depression quite often, but for whom the primary questions were of goodness, rightness, and evil. If any type can go "beyond good and evil" it is the 1, for whom the question of good and evil is most meaningful and most nuanced.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,965 Posts
No way. Nietzsche's rhetoric is so Ni-Fi that is so crazy. It's like free falling in a void.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,021 Posts
INFJ philosophers are systematic. If you look at people like Spinoza or Plotinus (both probably INFJs) they're all about explaining 'the world' in a thoroughly integrated way. Kant (probably an INTP) is like this too. Nietzsche's work isn't like that at all, he says different things at different times and it isn't at all clear how it is all supposed to fit together, it's fractured. This makes him seem clearly Te-Fi to me.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,858 Posts
I know he's Ni. I don't doubt it. But I'm honestly still on the fence between INFJ or INTJ. There's evidence for both, a lot of it.
 
1 - 20 of 26 Posts
Top