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The spirit of the spirits
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This is exactly what I was thinking for a while now. I was looking at how adults live and how I will have to live. At first I was only dissatisfied with how much apartments cost or any king of dwelling in city, which is pretty much a necessity for anyone. More or less I came to conclusion that most of them are highly overpriced, but then I looked at other things. It's not only that, but it seems that there is a strong culture pushing people to higher paying jobs, then people get them. The loop continues as you get your salary. Then you spend a lot on many overpriced things or things that you shouldn't even buy. As a person you always get poor deal for many things, but it seems that many people have either no sense or abysmal sense of what they need and what is a good deal. It seems that even dumb things sell well and average person is okay with wasting their own resources on crap. This is bullshit. At least in USA situation roughly looks like this:


The article says that after paying taxes, buying necessities, average American has 697 dollars left for anything they want. That's a lot of money, in other words you could buy a computer every month. And most of it goes to various things. Also it's not even that. It's not even about money, but about nearly everything. It can be money, time, food, clothes, cars and etc. And not really anything specifically American either. Pretty much every developed country has loads of people, who often overwork, waste their time on Facebook, have hardly any savings, are gullible to shitty ads, waste cash... It happens and it's a massive phenomena. It seems that managing yourself is somehow not done well or at all, even though everyone makes loads of decisions everyday. I just wonder why this happens, because it's frankly hardly comprehensible to me.
 

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1. Keeping up with Joneses
2. Diderot effect

I read this article a while back with some images about the amount of waste we as consumers are producing from returns to places like Amazon - where at times it's cheaper to dispose of the products opposed to re-certifying and reselling them. It's fucking tragic tbh. Especially when you consider how many people all over the world have to live with so little, and on top of that all this 'legal' trash, manufacturing or 'recycling' from first world countries is being dumped to them. Meanwhile you can easily browse online of people boasting about how they got this and that, and how they're still unsure if it's good enough, so they'll just hold onto it for a bit and buy another one and return the old one cause of generous return policies.

It's fucking crazy when you think about the amount of plastics, clothing, electronics and in general... crap, that is/are being mined/manufactured just to be thrown out after a few months or years, yet will sit in places for decades if not longer, to decompose, if even.
 

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Overindulgence. It feels good.
 

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The spirit of the spirits
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Discussion Starter #4
Overindulgence. It feels good.
Only to some. To me a bad decision no matter how much bad it is is never a good one. It's a mistake that must be rectified as soon as I can and as good as I could.
 

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Only to some. To me a bad decision no matter how much bad it is is never a good one. It's a mistake that must be rectified as soon as I can and as good as I could.
It feels good and that’s the reason for the overindulgence. I simply gave you one of the possible reasons, but never said it was necessarily a good decision.

I am definitely guilty of purchasing things I don’t need but want, overindulging especially when I’m at a low. Later on, with a clearer mind and in a better place, I’ll feel bad about it. I suspect it may be the same for others. Except some probably don’t even feel bad afterwards or ever think of how good/bad their decision was.

It’s good that you have great control over your indulgence. Urges and impulses can be very tempting.
 

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The spirit of the spirits
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Discussion Starter #6
1. Keeping up with Joneses
2. Diderot effect

I read this article a while back with some images about the amount of waste we as consumers are producing from returns to places like Amazon - where at times it's cheaper to dispose of the products opposed to re-certifying and reselling them. It's fucking tragic tbh. Especially when you consider how many people all over the world have to live with so little, and on top of that all this 'legal' trash, manufacturing or 'recycling' from first world countries is being dumped to them. Meanwhile you can easily browse online of people boasting about how they got this and that, and how they're still unsure if it's good enough, so they'll just hold onto it for a bit and buy another one and return the old one cause of generous return policies.

It's fucking crazy when you think about the amount of plastics, clothing, electronics and in general... crap, that is/are being mined/manufactured just to be thrown out after a few months or years, yet will sit in places for decades if not longer, to decompose, if even.
Where I live something like return isn't done casually. You can only return your thing if came to warranty repair for 3 times and only then you can finally get rid of it and get money back. But then again warranty sucks and it's shockingly hard to legally dispose electronic waste. I mean there are only like 2 places in a city with 300 000 citizens in it and annoyingly enough they work just like everyone else. From 8 to 5, meaning that you must arrange a whole day just for disposing of your e-trash. That's unbelievably fucked up.

But either way, I'm more interested in why people buy these things that they know they will not be used, be wasteful and aren't mindful of how much space they have. Just keeping up with society couldn't be such a strong reason. Especially for average 8-5 worker tired after work and walking in grocery store. It could only be sustainable in toxic friendships, but such phenomena isn't happening and especially not in huge masses.
 

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At least in USA situation roughly looks like this:


The article says that after paying taxes, buying necessities, average American has 697 dollars left for anything they want. That's a lot of money, in other words you could buy a computer every month. And most of it goes to various things. Also it's not even that. It's not even about money, but about nearly everything. It can be money, time, food, clothes, cars and etc. And not really anything specifically American either. Pretty much every developed country has loads of people, who often overwork, waste their time on Facebook, have hardly any savings, are gullible to shitty ads, waste cash... It happens and it's a massive phenomena. It seems that managing yourself is somehow not done well or at all, even though everyone makes loads of decisions everyday. I just wonder why this happens, because it's frankly hardly comprehensible to me.
You had examples from the US. I checked the cultural dimensions for the US and it points to short-term vision and overindulgence. The combination makes sense. Although, of course, this is merely an estimate based on generalisation—and no, not necessarily assumption because generalisation ultimately stems from some level of truth. There’s always going to be outliers in every population and culture, such as yourself, you may be an outlier in your country too. I just thought it was interesting.

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This, coupled with the US generally being a developed country that qualifies for high level of income... as you’ve also mentioned, there’s plenty of cash left at the end of the month. Makes it all the more easier to waste money on unnecessary things that feel good. I don’t think that this behaviour is so easy to emulate if you’re struggling to make ends meet in some underdeveloped country where you probably have better problems than where to put your money.
 

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The spirit of the spirits
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Discussion Starter #8
It feels good and that’s the reason for the overindulgence. I simply gave you one of the possible reasons, but never said it was necessarily a good decision.
Sorry

I am definitely guilty of purchasing things I don’t need but want, overindulging especially when I’m at a low. Later on, with a clearer mind and in a better place, I’ll feel bad about it. I suspect it may be the same for others. Except some probably don’t even feel bad afterwards or ever think of how good/bad their decision was.

It’s good that you have great control over your indulgence. Urges and impulses can be very tempting.
Well, I'm not yet living adult life, but it will come. Despite that I had an opportunity where I got 120 Euros per month and I could basically spend it however I want for 2 years (I think it was when I was 17-19 year old). At first I did some mistakes and basically had shitty spending habits. My own room got pretty quickly filled with things and like 20% of all I bought wasn't bringing any happiness and 10-5% of it was just complete waste. That isn't that bad. Somehow I saved 40% of all money I got and even then every month and hell every week I could buy pretty much any snack that I wanted, I could also buy electronics every 3 months. I also bough presents for relatives for birthdays and similar days). For working adult 120 Euros per month isn't much. In fact minimum wage is around 500 Euros (Euro is basically as valuable as US Dollar). But then after necessary expenses such person is still going to have more than me without those and for anyone other than bottom of the barrel worker that's even less money. But the thing is that 120 Euro budget was perfectly enough and actually a bit too much for living happily and feeling unrestrained financially. Meanwhile article says that people have 697 US dollars of disposable income, which 34% people spend it all without any of that left for savings. That is pretty crazy and all that is spent on unnecessary purchases, so that isn't food, taxes, car taxes, rent or anything of strong importance. Also article says than more than half of such people also have 2 car space garage filled with things that they hardly use and they have no space for a car to in garage which defeats the whole purpose of having garage in the first place. If 120 can buy you comfort, then twice that buys you luxuries and beyond that buys you a ton of waste. And it seems that similar things happen in any developed nation.

Thanks for your kind words, but I don't really have strong control over my urges. I quite often eat something unhealthy and I have bad habits, but those habits just don't become massive money sinkers. Now I have 5 Euros each week for extra purchases (mostly food) and I can still manage to save 1.50 Euros often, while remaining mostly satisfied. In fact last week I saved all 5 Euros and bought a book for myself this week. So it seems that you can save money no matter how low your budget is and then spend it wisely.
 

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This is exactly what I was thinking for a while now. I was looking at how adults live and how I will have to live. At first I was only dissatisfied with how much apartments cost or any king of dwelling in city, which is pretty much a necessity for anyone. More or less I came to conclusion that most of them are highly overpriced, but then I looked at other things. It's not only that, but it seems that there is a strong culture pushing people to higher paying jobs, then people get them. The loop continues as you get your salary. Then you spend a lot on many overpriced things or things that you shouldn't even buy. As a person you always get poor deal for many things, but it seems that many people have either no sense or abysmal sense of what they need and what is a good deal. It seems that even dumb things sell well and average person is okay with wasting their own resources on crap. This is bullshit. At least in USA situation roughly looks like this:


The article says that after paying taxes, buying necessities, average American has 697 dollars left for anything they want. That's a lot of money, in other words you could buy a computer every month. And most of it goes to various things. Also it's not even that. It's not even about money, but about nearly everything. It can be money, time, food, clothes, cars and etc. And not really anything specifically American either. Pretty much every developed country has loads of people, who often overwork, waste their time on Facebook, have hardly any savings, are gullible to shitty ads, waste cash... It happens and it's a massive phenomena. It seems that managing yourself is somehow not done well or at all, even though everyone makes loads of decisions everyday. I just wonder why this happens, because it's frankly hardly comprehensible to me.
Ok, so your title and your argument ARE NOT well related. That is very confusing. If you are so concerned about waste, why are you wasting our time? (<---- This is more of a joke than a serious comment)

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So, what the hell is waste anyway?

In a meta sense, waste is ONLY one thing. It does not matter how YOU define it, it matters what waste really is, what it means.

Waste properly defined is that which is discarded for any reason. Your thread and argument are about value judgments or moral choice. You DO NOT say this, which is strange in a sense.

Your argument is that people acquire and then discard things they do not need. You also seem to be caught up in thinking about money which has NOTHING directly to do with acquisition. Money is only indirectly related to acquisition.

We discard all manner of waste. Other people are waste. Ideas are waste. Very valuable items are waste. Things people need are waste. And of course classic garbage is waste. You seem to focus on a different category of waste which might be titled, 'things not needed in the first place that cost money'. That is an extremely narrow band of waste. But ok, accepting your quite limited scope, let's examine this issue.

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So your concern is NOT with waste. Your concern is with the failure of moral choice concerning the moral virtue of efficiency. You also seem admirably concerned with a sort of reflection of efficiency onto a health or healthy way of being virtue.

So every moral aim, every virtue is a vice if taken too far. That is over-expression. This means that your two specific virtues, efficiency and healthiness also can be taken to far. You might be prone to disagree. So I will try to argue that case.

All virtues have EQUAL value. You may disagree, but that is my premise. I consider for instance, the virtue of beauty. It is equally important to efficiency. So these virtues CONFLICT. They seem to be opposed to one another. They are not actually. But they seem to be. If one understands morality correctly, all virtues ARE NOT in conflict. They merge in perfect unison and integration amid the GOOD. The GOOD is perfection. The GOOD is not love, but rather the set of best choices all merged together into the single point of intentional perfection. So love is the whole system, allowing even evil. GOOD is perfection, perfect efficiency, which is also perfect health and perfect beauty. So that is the basis of any argument that makes sense. Any argument not based in this set of truths will fail. It will fail because it will over-express one virtue, perhaps efficiency, at the cost of all others, perhaps including beauty.

So, we have to examine the WHY people ... waste. In your case we have to examine the WHY people have 'things not needed in the first place that cost money'.

So one reason is image. People buy things because they think that thing will enhance their image. So their imagination, based in desire, is deluding them into thinking they will have even just slightly better lives with that thing. So, they buy it. This is the virtue of achievement, image. It is derived from the possibly moral desire of achievement. We MUST suffer the possibly bad moral choice in order to empower the GOOD moral choice. This is the essence of all further argument along these lines.

Thus waste, or ... the consequences of bad or immoral choices, is REQUIRED in order that the GOOD choices are even possible.

So there is your answer. We could delve into any number of WHYs and it would not matter. The answer, the correct answer, is the same. In order to support the earning of wisdom, the burden of free will, both bad and GOOD choices MUST be suffered. That is all.

This is a tautology explaining WHY we must in some way SUPPORT the possibility of all bad choices.

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What is the path to clarity and moral choice aimed at perfection and the GOOD?

There is only 1 path to that. Since GOOD is objective, and it is, we need to decide what GOOD is in all its parts. How efficient is GOOD? When does efficiency go too far? When does health pursuit go to far (immortality)? How can we correctly morally merge beauty and efficiency for instance?

Then when society decides what morality is, what the GOOD is, we make a system that catalyzes the GOOD. I want to point out that we will have to intentionally cause necessary suffering. Necessary suffering is required to earn wisdom. It is only unnecessary suffering we properly strive to avoid. So identifying what is and is not necessary is wise. Right now for instance, we DO NOT require much suffering that is necessary from people. Just as a singular consideration, I would require meat eaters (like me) to kill and eat an animal, to accept the moral responsibility for the deaths of animals they are eating. If you cannot do it, you cannot eat meat. And really, you need to do it. Morally, we all kill in order to live. We should know this and own it. This is just one example.

But such a society is not even well conceived of yet. It was hinted at by Socrates via Plato in the Republic, 2500 years ago and we all still struggle with highly immoral Capitalism even today. It's frankly a joke.

We allow unqualified people to make far too many serious choices that add up against all of us and the Earth itself. Democracy itself is a rank stupidity without equal. Most people are not qualified to vote, really. They lack even basic moral wisdom.

So much waste is based in immorality and that immorality must be suffered to allow moral choice. But amid Capitalism and Democracy, two institutions most people expect are wise and wonderful, waste that you refer to is Catalyzed and even PREFERRED as the life blood of the system. That is horridly immoral, and it will rot and destroy both us and the Earth, and these two failed ideologies have been doing so since they began.
 
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The spirit of the spirits
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Discussion Starter #10
You had examples from the US. I checked the cultural dimensions for the US and it points to short-term vision and overindulgence. The combination makes sense. Although, of course, this is merely an estimate based on generalisation—and no, not necessarily assumption because generalisation ultimately stems from some level of truth. There’s always going to be outliers in every population and culture, such as yourself, you may be an outlier in your country too. I just thought it was interesting.

View attachment 867286
This, coupled with the US generally being a developed country that qualifies for high level of income... as you’ve also mentioned, there’s plenty of cash left at the end of the month. Makes it all the more easier to waste money on unnecessary things that feel good. I don’t think that this behaviour is so easy to emulate if you’re struggling to make ends meet in some underdeveloped country where you probably have better problems than where to put your money.
Good point, but it's not like people in US don't have some really awful problems either. A typical American probably went to college and has a big debt to pay (which by the way is can be very easily avoided, but not completely). Then the same person probably has another debt for any kind of housing or at least a rent. Pretty much everyone there is a victim of overpriced health care. Half of America is obese. You can't go anywhere on foot or with public transport (which doesn't exist in most places at all), you are more likely to be forced to spend hours in transportation everyday. Then US has problem with mass incarceration and crazy spending on military shit, which is nearly useless. Sure money can't solve any problem in a country, but it can solve some. Just that US citizens choose to spend their money on something else.
 

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There is a great deal of peer pressure to have certain technologies, have a certain kind of clothes or car, etc., and these change quickly, requiring frequent replacements.

I have a pension that is less than minimum wage, and I pay rent, own a car, etc. I still manage to save 20% of my income and have a bit of money left for frivolous things. I think people who have larger incomes and huge debt are falling victim to keeping up with the Joneses.

I do have lots of stuff though (in my opinion). Most of it is in a small storage locker. Seasonal clothes, travel needs, car accessories, etc.
 

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Well, I'm not yet living adult life, but it will come. Despite that I had an opportunity where I got 120 Euros per month and I could basically spend it however I want for 2 years (I think it was when I was 17-19 year old). At first I did some mistakes and basically had shitty spending habits. My own room got pretty quickly filled with things and like 20% of all I bought wasn't bringing any happiness and 10-5% of it was just complete waste. That isn't that bad. Somehow I saved 40% of all money I got and even then every month and hell every week I could buy pretty much any snack that I wanted, I could also buy electronics every 3 months. I also bough presents for relatives for birthdays and similar days). For working adult 120 Euros per month isn't much. In fact minimum wage is around 500 Euros (Euro is basically as valuable as US Dollar). But then after necessary expenses such person is still going to have more than me without those and for anyone other than bottom of the barrel worker that's even less money. But the thing is that 120 Euro budget was perfectly enough and actually a bit too much for living happily and feeling unrestrained financially. Meanwhile article says that people have 697 US dollars of disposable income, which 34% people spend it all without any of that left for savings. That is pretty crazy and all that is spent on unnecessary purchases, so that isn't food, taxes, car taxes, rent or anything of strong importance. Also article says than more than half of such people also have 2 car space garage filled with things that they hardly use and they have no space for a car to in garage which defeats the whole purpose of having garage in the first place. If 120 can buy you comfort, then twice that buys you luxuries and beyond that buys you a ton of waste. And it seems that similar things happen in any developed nation.

Thanks for your kind words, but I don't really have strong control over my urges. I quite often eat something unhealthy and I have bad habits, but those habits just don't become massive money sinkers. Now I have 5 Euros each week for extra purchases (mostly food) and I can still manage to save 1.50 Euros often, while remaining mostly satisfied. In fact last week I saved all 5 Euros and bought a book for myself this week. So it seems that you can save money no matter how low your budget is and then spend it wisely.
You have to remember that what is enough for one person may not be for another. Plus, we all have different circumstances and health. It's all subjective at the end of the day. Even what is "waste" is different for everybody. It's best that you make purchasing decisions that stays true to your character and your values, but this does not necessarily mean that others who make opposite decisions are making bad decisions, per se.

Live your best life according to your own rules and you're likely to live happier than if you were to try to fit everybody into the same mould. That's just going to cause unnecessary frustration. Yes, if we all returned parcels less, used plastic less, spent less money on unnecessary wants, the world will be in a better shape, but sadly, you're likely going to wait a long time for that. Electrifying cars would cause less pollution and emissions, but what about the energy required to charge them? What about the nickel-mining involved with creating batteries? I'm happy every time I see changes in my local community, i.e. updated recycling/bin sorting and I support it. We can do our own part in different, little ways. But there's always going to be something we won't be satisfied with.

Good point, but it's not like people in US don't have some really awful problems either. A typical American probably went to college and has a big debt to pay (which by the way is can be very easily avoided, but not completely). Then the same person probably has another debt for any kind of housing or at least a rent. Pretty much everyone there is a victim of overpriced health care. Half of America is obese. You can't go anywhere on foot or with public transport (which doesn't exist in most places at all), you are more likely to be forced to spend hours in transportation everyday. Then US has problem with mass incarceration and crazy spending on military shit, which is nearly useless. Sure money can't solve any problem in a country, but it can solve some. Just that US citizens choose to spend their money on something else.
Problems exist everywhere, even in highly developed nations, of course. It's just that these problems are most likely larger and more needs-based in underdeveloped nations, i.e. a US citizen may worry over debt but otherwise can live day to day and even afford indulgences, but a person from somewhere with high poverty most likely would worry over their next meal. I simply based it off of quantified data that Americans can be generally overindulgent people with a short-term orientation, plus having an average salary that permits enough disposable income to "waste" them on random things that are not valuable to you but may be to them. This just points to one of the reasons why Americans are able to do this more than any other country that aren't as wealthy and developed. It is the same here in the UK. People are indulgent and the average person can generally afford to spend and so they do.

The world is simply not populated with conscientious people, but it doesn't stop you from being one.
 

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The spirit of the spirits
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Discussion Starter #13
So, what the hell is waste anyway?
Pretty much any resource used to achieve some kind of purpose, but it never does. An example would be gym. You can pay for it to become more fit, but surprisingly many people just fail to go there, let alone to get fit. Also there's a weird idea that you should go to gym to get fit. You can do that at home or outside and you really don't need anything to do that. In this case a gym is a waste, because it doesn't help you to achive your goal and you lost your resources (money). Similar logic with everything else.

So your concern is NOT with waste. Your concern is with the failure of moral choice concerning the moral virtue of efficiency. You also seem admirably concerned with a sort of reflection of efficiency onto a health or healthy way of being virtue.
Well kind. More precisely my problem is with people lacking focus, and understanding of themselves and thus resulting in various types of waste. Working in jobs that are too draining, lacking free time, spending too much money, having less than satisfying relationships...


So every moral aim, every virtue is a vice if taken too far. That is over-expression. This means that your two specific virtues, efficiency and healthiness also can be taken to far. You might be prone to disagree. So I will try to argue that case.
I will not disagree, however I lack insight to know what virtues exist in society that makes it behave that way. It's only clear to me that it's something very different to me and in many ways alien to me too, also in other ways disrespectful and just not very smart.

I read this yesterday, you should read it too. It was really insightful:


There is only 1 path to that. Since GOOD is objective, and it is, we need to decide what GOOD is in all its parts. How efficient is GOOD? When does efficiency go too far? When does health pursuit go to far (immortality)? How can we correctly morally merge beauty and efficiency for instance?
But isn't it weird how in so many different cultures what is good somehow ends up in same waste of income, time and other things? Despite being one of the richest society on Earth Japan has really bad problems of overworking, badly malfunctional social culture. And yet despite society in general being rich, Japan has way less people like Bill Gates, Elon Musk and etc. They work a lot, they don't gain a lot, thus their work value is actually low. Also they have shit ton of social issues. And then countries like Poland with again very substancially different cultural values have quite similar cycle of life. You work, you spend, some of that is a waste. Yet in both countries you can pretty much buy your dreams, somehow that doesn't happen. Lots of money ends up being spent on luxuries, there's a lot of waste and inneficient purchases, also typical person doesn't really have loads of free time (well much more than Japanese, but still 8-5 culture is standard). Just like in US many poor decisions are being made In Japan and in Poland.

So much waste is based in immorality and that immorality must be suffered to allow moral choice. But amid Capitalism and Democracy, two institutions most people expect are wise and wonderful, waste that you refer to is Catalyzed and even PREFERRED as the life blood of the system. That is horridly immoral, and it will rot and destroy both us and the Earth, and these two failed ideologies have been doing so since they began.
So you are basically saying that just like beauty, waste is in the eye of beholder? Thus in this case I'm a part of society with which I don't agree with, right? That doesn't say much and importantly if society is that way, then I should be somehow affected by it, but I'm not. That is weird. I couldn't possibly be against it for my whole life, that is unsustainable and hardly possible. And despite that, shouldn't it be valuable to masses to have some financial savings every month, despite of their values? Because you know nobody wants to spend time without any money left, nobody wants to be broke in case something happens and yet it happens and not to minorities, but to majorities. Just like US, in my country many people have zero savings and on average every citizen spends more than they can afford by several Euros. Despite what values you might have, that isn't sustainable and you will go bankrupt after some time. That also isn't smart and it seems that people aren't making truly good choices if that happens.
 

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The spirit of the spirits
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Discussion Starter #14
There is a great deal of peer pressure to have certain technologies, have a certain kind of clothes or car, etc., and these change quickly.
That is understandable, but it seems that most people tend to spend too much on things that they regularly use and even buy expensive things that end up being unused. You can have modern smartphone, but not spend 1 thousand for one. Same with car and etc. You can be quite peer pressure affected, but you can find more financially viable options for yourself that function and appear very similar to more expensive ones. But good point nonetheless, some people might really be extremely gullible.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
That's just going to cause unnecessary frustration.
That's mostly sustainable, however there are things like environment and things like voting. If everything is going to feel alien to you or highly disagreeable to you, then no matter how much you would like to ignore it, it will feel bad and you will end up feeling constantly discontent. That's the price of difference.


Electrifying cars would cause less pollution and emissions, but what about the energy required to charge them? What about the nickel-mining involved with creating batteries?
Just wanted to say that the main point of electric cars isn't to really reduce waste in general, but to reduce pollution in places with lots of people. Thus improving health of average person living the city and marginally do so in smaller settlements. Also because it's by far easier to control several energy plants and battery factories than millions of citizens, so that might be helpful in achieving end goal. Better health, less waste (through stronger control of polluters), less noise in urban areas. However, it's still arguable if things like hydrogen fuel wouldn't be even better than that (pretty much zero pollution and convenience of petrol). Ethanol failed completely tho.




Problems exist everywhere, even in highly developed nations, of course. It's just that these problems are most likely larger and more needs-based in underdeveloped nations, i.e. a US citizen may worry over debt but otherwise can live day to day and even afford indulgences, but a person from somewhere with high poverty most likely would worry over their next meal. I simply based it off of quantified data that Americans can be generally overindulgent people with a short-term orientation, plus having an average salary that permits enough disposable income to "waste" them on random things that are not valuable to you but may be to them. This just points to one of the reasons why Americans are able to do this more than any other country that aren't as wealthy and developed. It is the same here in the UK. People are indulgent and the average person can generally afford to spend and so they do.
Explains a lot, but pretty much no civilization yet spends their extra income to fund removing some obvious social problems. I wonder why. I think that there could be some demand for that.
 

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That's mostly sustainable, however there are things like environment and things like voting. If everything is going to feel alien to you or highly disagreeable to you, then no matter how much you would like to ignore it, it will feel bad and you will end up feeling constantly discontent. That's the price of difference.

Just wanted to say that the main point of electric cars isn't to really reduce waste in general, but to reduce pollution in places with lots of people. Thus improving health of average person living the city and marginally do so in smaller settlements. Also because it's by far easier to control several energy plants and battery factories than millions of citizens, so that might be helpful in achieving end goal. Better health, less waste (through stronger control of polluters), less noise in urban areas. However, it's still arguable if things like hydrogen fuel wouldn't be even better than that (pretty much zero pollution and convenience of petrol). Ethanol failed completely tho.

Explains a lot, but pretty much no civilization yet spends their extra income to fund removing some obvious social problems. I wonder why. I think that there could be some demand for that.
Oh, definitely, we will feel discontent one way or another. There's no way to please everybody. If it were up to me, I wouldn't give certain people the right to vote without proper testing, but that's another can of worms for another day lol... And yes, my electric car example is just to point out that we constantly try to "do better" but it's not always fool proof or perfect. There's always something "bad" it will cause. Sometimes it's about choosing the lesser evil, in this case electric cars.. despite still causing harm, it is the lesser of the two.

True. Even the wealthy donate money and do acts that appear altruistic but in reality, they just want to evade tax. It's a loophole that is legal. I definitely wish there would be less focus on military and indulgences and more focus on eradicating poverty and the likes, too, but well... it is often not the focus of most countries.
 

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The spirit of the spirits
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Discussion Starter #17
True. Even the wealthy donate money and do acts that appear altruistic but in reality, they just want to evade tax. It's a loophole that is legal. I definitely wish there would be less focus on military and indulgences and more focus on eradicating poverty and the likes, too, but well... it is often not the focus of most countries.
I only know that US spends a lot on military, that's a really rare thing. I think that it is wasteful not only for obvious reason, but also due to how unlikely that any bigger war could actually happen. I watched some YT video where dude explained that wars no longer really make any financial incentive. That's true, but what I think is even more true is that next big war won't be traditional, but it will be an IT war. Thus even if US thinks that they are well protected, in fact they are probably only in traditional way that may be truly useless. Meanwhile there are others countries like Lithuania, that constantly struggle to scramble even the minimum amount of volunteers and is constantly underfunding military. Due to that, last year a mandatory service was announced for young adults, who aren't studying, aren't working. This was further made stricter and now even busy people will have to do mandatory service. The only exception are unhealthy individuals, very high achievement individuals and some others that I can't remember anymore. That's pathetic that government must force this on people, but they have to do that in order to stay in EU. When volunteering was free I think they managed to get 1600 volunteers in a year for basic training. I'm not sure how many people there are in army, but it's probably so useless in any realistic situation, that it will be viped out in a first day. Then you get situation of nobody wanting to go there, government needing more soldiers, thus you get unfitting law for current society that makes many young adults dissatisfied with government. And guess what, corona pretty much ruined all this bullshit anyway. Even then this year they only managed to get around 4000 people. That's very low and again useless in any kind of realistic combat situation. Either way, military is mostly bullshit. We only need that, because some government twats can't be peaceful. And these days, when you are more or less forced to cooperate with many countries either way, you simply can't easily break international relationships or gang up to attack some other country due to how negatively it will impact your future relationships with them.
 

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You have not yet lived in the outside world, outside of your parents' creation, to understand where you really end up fitting in. You are not going to be who you think you are or will be, and having high expectations for other people's wastefulness or resourcefulness will be mirrored onto yourself through a thing called karma. It's just what adult life feels like. It seems hard to do, but things start falling into place and people start to become necessary and convenient and it can sometimes be a difficult thing to have to face. The reality of adult life away from your parents is the reason why so many choose to go back home and wait until they meet someone or something more plausible happens such as going back to school because perhaps the level of education required to make a certain amount of money or level of happiness wasn't enough. I'm 28 now and have lived on-and-off on my own and having single, lonely parents issues a ton of guilt into my heart that I really do feel lowers my ambition and heightens my inhibition because I want everyone to feel loved, safe, and wanted and whenever my true desire to live far, far away from the people of which I end up having to feed off of happens, I get super homesick and have a phobia of my parents getting sick and not being able to be there for them.
So adult life involves thought patterns that are going to be rather different from the stable sort of ones you have now. One thing starts to happen after another, and sometimes the cost of living ends up being the last thing you have to worry about. I suggest you choose a profession, not a college major, but something specific that is or has been on your mind for a long time, so you'll know precisely what it is you are studying to become, and perhaps are, in a lot of ways, already so that you won't have to face the difficulties of ambivalence later on in life when you're jobless and hungry and in the wrong relationships with people who are facing tough circumstances just as you are. You have to stick to one thing and not get swayed into anything else. Just stay on your path.

If you're worried about wastefulness, then perhaps you can go into environmental planning or engineering or urban development. There are many and vast arenas of concentration in the college experience that will give you a heads-up in life because you will physically meet people who will be your providers to get you to your careers simply by association. If you choose to put in the effort, you will be rewarded, and you won't have to worry about the perfection of wasting too much money.

On the other hand, if you're innovative, why not try being resourceful and actually make things using recycled materials that you can sell and start a business from? There are plenty of unconventional artisans that have everything out of nothing and don't have the college debt that's associated with going to art and design school.

Think about what wastefulness even is. If you get an allergic reaction and you need the injection to cure it immediately, all of a sudden a plastic cartridge that's thrown away into trash is no longer seen as wasteful material that needs to be recycled, because it can no longer be sanitized. It was used to help someone in an emergency situation and had to enter the individual's bloodstream to keep the person alive.

Sometimes when we speak of resourcefulness versus wastefulness we are speaking of matters of life and death. The human race in the animal kingdom usually has to be wasteful in order to simply keep ourselves healthy and breathing. Your task is to think about the amount of time you want to spend on doing something that will ultimately benefit you, and why that is something you want to do, and perhaps even analyze how you'll find the value of doing that said thing. You don't have to be a major risk-taker who takes out credit card loans to survive in an upscale apartment and many people don't even believe in owning such items that can wreak havoc on your ability to recuperate from perhaps not being able to pay off all the money on time.

People are changing. More and more individuals are striving to find the love of their lives rather than continue on with their individualistic, hedonistic, and lonely selves in apartments to create and build their own homes. Entire settlements of people who abhor the system of government are taking over parts of the country that are relatively becoming less and less hidden due to the amount of young people who want to feel free and live off the land rather than wear uniforms on a daily basis to feel overworked in a mall that feels like an impossible castle.

Are you a medical professional who wants to save lives? Do you know how much wastefulness is in the hospital systems in order to keep people alive?

Do you know how many people are killed in natural disasters on a yearly basis? Do you know how many people are killed from automobile accidents on a daily basis? Does that change the fact that there are billions of liquor stores all over the country and there is a culture based around drinking beer and eating chicken wings during the superbowl despite hypertension rises and car crash spikes?
Do you know people actually get mauled by bears?

It seems you need to start thinking about what you're good at, because before you know it, you'll be an adult who will be dealing with the issues you're worried about. Focus on your strengths and positive attributes and perhaps keep the weaknesses you're into doing but shy or unsure of as a hobby you can take on later. What's most important is that you will be able to rely on yourself for when it's really time for you to use your wings and reach those important destinations which will help you see the obstacles as spaces you can conquer and overcome. Remember, knowledge is what will keep you strong in mind, body, and spirit.
 

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Pretty much any resource used to achieve some kind of purpose, but it never does. An example would be gym. You can pay for it to become more fit, but surprisingly many people just fail to go there, let alone to get fit.
Actually, I myself and many of my friends do maintain memberships and go to the gym. Planet Fitness and similar low cost gyms have made the whole issue much more affordable. And humorously, people go when it's cheaper and skip when it's more expensive. It makes sense in a perverse way.

What is free or cheaper is something you do from genuine desire. When you pat a lot for something you have the ridiculous desire for it to work perfectly without any effort on your part. This backfires.

Human nature is quite interesting. It really just moral truth, and humans just happen to be the currently most capable moral agents.

Also there's a weird idea that you should go to gym to get fit. You can do that at home or outside and you really don't need anything to do that. In this case a gym is a waste, because it doesn't help you to achive your goal and you lost your resources (money). Similar logic with everything else.
Well, this is a problem with Capitalism, not waste, as mentioned. These pieces of helpful equipment should be simply made available to the public and paid for by society. People would be healthier. And no, nature cannot easily target specific muscle groups as well as a machine made for it can, and in the comfort of AC.

But I agree. I hike all the time. Hiked 12 miles and canoed 2 yesterday. If you know how to exercise nature is ready and willing to be a gym. It's just not as ready made and perfect as a gym is.

Well kind. More precisely my problem is with people lacking focus, and understanding of themselves and thus resulting in various types of waste. Working in jobs that are too draining, lacking free time, spending too much money, having less than satisfying relationships...
This is all exacerbated by Capitalism, which forces people to conflate their worthiness with their wealth, a horridly immoral thing. Think also about what this does to men.

Men are the more likely gender to face issues of depression and self doubt when faced with the requirement to express their competitive edge, their delusional maleness, via wealth. This translates rather directly to mate selection as women then become hypergamous as a response. Many chaotic men, desire or anger types, are deemed undesirable as mates. Women then also cuckold order men with progeny of chaos and anger men. Women for their part suffer the focus on beauty due to the competition to capture the attention of a man, offer mating to a man, with the most resources. If Capitalism were removed, it is likely that many worthy men would lose even more in the mating game. That is due not to the fact that wealth would no longer be the determining factor, but that unwise women would be even more free to choose poorly which men they mate with based on wasteful and severely outdated Neanderthal standards that do not serve moral truth. Desire is something women often see as 'just unavoidable feelings' and not their own choice, which is delusional. Efficiency is aided tremendously by society breeding BETTER humans, that is, more morally balanced. This is deeply affected by breeding practices and seems to lean towards some pretty scary ideas about planned breeding, licensed progeny, forced abortions and so on. And that is NOT waste. Its the reverse of waste. So where is the line?

I will not disagree, however I lack insight to know what virtues exist in society that makes it behave that way.
There is no reason to claim this. The Enneagram is complete. There is no emotion missing from it. If you can think of one, tell me. No one has ever responded properly to that challenge. I make it all the time. You really can't. The circle of the Enneagram is complete. It contains EVERY why in the universe. The list of virtues at that level of granularity is 9, and only and always 9.

It's only clear to me that it's something very different to me and in many ways alien to me too, also in other ways disrespectful and just not very smart.
I'm not sire what this means.

It might mean that you are over expressing chaos and believe too much in mystery. The proper expression of mystery IS NOT to deny that we can know. The proper expression is that healthy doubt is a good idea and that perfect knowing remains elusive. This does not mean that anything anyone thinks, does, or has experienced is alien to anyone else. It categorically IS NOT alien. We are all included. I do not believe that the pain of any experience is beyond the imagination of even a relatively average imagination. One of the STUPIDEST things ever said, and it is often said, is this line, 'more than you can possibly imagine'. Imagination is incredible. Even average imagination so exceeds most people's accurate awareness of their own feelings as to be simply out of reach. That is far more true than the blatant exaggeration error quoted.

But isn't it weird how in so many different cultures what is good somehow ends up in same waste of income, time and other things?
No, as explained in my previous post. There is NOTHING AT ALL weird about it. It is SUPER common and expected that this be so.

Despite being one of the richest society on Earth Japan has really bad problems of overworking, badly malfunctional social culture.
Japan is deeply emotionally unified alone 6/4/1 triptype. They are so strangely orderly. This is over-expression of order leading to bouts of chaos and anger training and dysfunction. Their assertiveness training and odd sexual expressions are world famous for VERY obvious reasons. Their perverse denigration of loudness and anger has led to the herbivore male quite obviously as it will always. The rest of the idiotic world be warned. Deny 1/3 of love at your peril.

The vast over expression of desire in the West is just as dangerous. Pandering to desire in all forms is now EPIC in pitch. Fear and reason are seen as 'Negativity'. Overt and self-indulgent immoral 'Positivity' are lauded, foolishly.

And yet despite society in general being rich, Japan has way less people like Bill Gates, Elon Musk and etc. They work a lot, they don't gain a lot, thus their work value is actually low. Also they have shit ton of social issues. And then countries like Poland with again very substancially different cultural values have quite similar cycle of life. You work, you spend, some of that is a waste. Yet in both countries you can pretty much buy your dreams, somehow that doesn't happen. Lots of money ends up being spent on luxuries, there's a lot of waste and inneficient purchases, also typical person doesn't really have loads of free time (well much more than Japanese, but still 8-5 culture is standard). Just like in US many poor decisions are being made In Japan and in Poland.
Order and work repress and devalue desire which is chaos and individualism, imagination and ACHIEVEMENT itself, enneatype 3. America has the reverse problem, excessive whoring and greed.

So you are basically saying that just like beauty, waste is in the eye of beholder?
Not at all. You misunderstood me entirely.

It's because you began with a faulty premise here. Beauty IS NOT and NEVER WAS in the eye of the beholder. That is delusional chaos apologist nonsense. Beauty is objective, like all virtue, like all truth. There is one right way to be, the GOOD. The Golden Ratio is real. Further, waste is objectively not waste. Bring in Mr Fusion. Waste is energy. But the truth is society needs to stop producing garbage products to support Capitalism.

Check out this type of thinking:

The Long Now

Thus in this case I'm a part of society with which I don't agree with, right? That doesn't say much and importantly if society is that way, then I should be somehow affected by it, but I'm not. That is weird.
No, that is not weird either.

Further you ARE affected, whether you admit it or not. But, what you are saying is that you are very qualified and willing to resist these affectations. That is wise. Moral truth is objective. It matters not how many morons choose immoral things, an immoral way of life, one should always strive for perfection, for the GOOD. This is another clear example of why Democracy is actually Idiocracy and it always was.

I couldn't possibly be against it for my whole life, that is unsustainable and hardly possible.
Incorrect. It is possible. I am making a go of it myself. To quote Jacques Fresco, 'This shit has to go!'

And despite that, shouldn't it be valuable to masses to have some financial savings every month, despite of their values?
Yes, but you are defaulting to the values of Capitalism. We SHOULD care for everyone, despite their 'contribution'. But to be proper, we SHOULD restrain bad breeding, and that is a hard choice to make, even if it is a moral one.

Because you know nobody wants to spend time without any money left, nobody wants to be broke in case something happens and yet it happens and not to minorities, but to majorities. Just like US, in my country many people have zero savings and on average every citizen spends more than they can afford by several Euros. Despite what values you might have, that isn't sustainable and you will go bankrupt after some time. That also isn't smart and it seems that people aren't making truly good choices if that happens.
Capitalism, the fractional reserve system is bonkers. It always was. It depends on the blood sacrifice of the many to exalt the few. It is deeply and inherently immoral.

Communism and RBE (Resource Based Economy) is clearly a more moral form of system. It is inherently less wasteful. The only issue I have with the The Venus Project et al is that they do not advocate for morality. Thus their system is corrupt from the start even with the best of 'non-moral' aims. Morality IS a law of nature, so there is hope for these left wing silly types. They need to respect the moral truth of fear and anger.
 

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The spirit of the spirits
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Discussion Starter #20
If you're worried about wastefulness, then perhaps you can go into environmental planning or engineering or urban development.
I'm already in Environmental Sciences at University. Completed 2 years already, soon 3rd year will start.

and don't have the college debt that's associated with going to art and design school.
Where I live you don't pay for education unless you are seriously dumb or unwilling to learn. There's no debt for that.

Do you know how much wastefulness is in the hospital systems in order to keep people alive?
Yes I know, but that's the other way around here. System sucks, lacks resources and at the cost of wellness of society tries to survive. During these times it's pretty much dead due to how closed off it became. People started to smash doors due to how unbearable situation is.


Do you know how many people are killed in natural disasters on a yearly basis?
Nearly nobody here. 1 person got hit by a roof during windy day, but besides that, no one.

Do you know people actually get mauled by bears?
Well, duh.

It seems you need to start thinking about what you're good at, because before you know it, you'll be an adult who will be dealing with the issues you're worried about. Focus on your strengths and positive attributes and perhaps keep the weaknesses you're into doing but shy or unsure of as a hobby you can take on later. What's most important is that you will be able to rely on yourself for when it's really time for you to use your wings and reach those important destinations which will help you see the obstacles as spaces you can conquer and overcome. Remember, knowledge is what will keep you strong in mind, body, and spirit.
I don't think that I asked for career advice.
 
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