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What would a better society look like to you?

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Discussion Starter #1
How can we learn to understand each other in today's divided society? And what role can idealists (or NF types) play in creating more unity? Let me know what you guys think!

 

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Wow, somehow I think that NF could just work on any of those options!

Basically, I feel that NFs are needed to "humanize" an environment.

But personally, I feel that for now we could use more NFs on the education sector.
 

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Political pundits only create division. Although revolutionizing corporate culture sounds fun, I think the correct answer here is education.
 
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What I've accepted is that nobody can truly be like me completely genetically, physically, emotionally, and mentally. Another thing I've accepted is that people are unique in their own ways. However, the point is that unity can be tricky considering that there are people that come from different subcultures, different cultures, different countries, and different experiences who have personal interests and personal lifestyles. Good luck unifying everyone.
 

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I agree with the title. I was not so long ago reflecting on this statistic I saw once a few years ago, that INFJs are the least of all types to have a happy, successful career and the least likely to have a happy marriage. On top of that, INFJs are the rarest type (and therefore misunderstood and not bothered about). I eventually started to think that it is society's fault that INFJs are unsuccessful in these departments. Our society has values that simply do not coincide with the INFJ ego, potential and general image. By and large it is a capitalist society that values people who can keep the wheels churning. INFJs can play their robotic role like everyone else if they wish, but it often doesn't even seem to work out for us if we try. For example, INFJs are said to make great psychologists (drug pushers, in the end), but psychology is a pretty tragic profession for an INFJ, I think. And why would a one size fits all assessment of an individual's (and then an entire type's) career prospects possibly be of any real value?! MBTI is used to manipulate people to choose certain careers, or at least consider them and think them valuable. In the end this is a completely valueless system and I honestly think many people suffer from it. At the end of the day, education does little more than ruin children's lives... In a similar vein, too many people seem to follow the analogy that Hitler was an INFJ. Mistyping Hitler is one problem, but mistyping Hitler for the purposes of using some kind of collective scapegoat is another problem... "Pick on the weak ones and rig them that way" (I think Hitler was an ENFJ and I will hold to that belief until this terrible night is over, but this is another, entirely different discussion for another occasion). It's like as if people just can't behave! And sorry to bring that up, but the Nazis are bound to come up in every conversation that lasts for a considerable length, because it has been pre-determined in some horrible, iNtuitive way by Nazi physics, because the essence of human thought itself has been shattered to pieces by this history. Identity politics is a smaller issue in many ways, but people will take the fall for everything it involves. I simply do not know if there is a cure anymore.
 

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Our society has values that simply do not coincide with the INFJ ego, potential and general image. By and large it is a capitalist society that values people who can keep the wheels churning.
This is what happens when people sell their souls for greed instead of being decent people that make their systems accommodate people with compassion. Which is why there is a rise of sweatshops, obesity, suicide rates, depression, anxiety, the breaking of the family unit, neglected children, feminazis, alcoholism, etc. This is what happens when people are going out of control because of greed rather than creating civilised societies. Civilised societies don't exist anymore, especially since the popular social media platforms are being controlled by cancel culture psychopaths who are silencing refugees, activists, and journalists to benefit the rich and powerful dictators who control the world through central bank cartels, online surveillance, military terrorism, wealth inequality, abusive international trade policies, and censorship.
 

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unifying everyone
before unifying you need to actually dividing people first..there's a lot of people who are actually good being labelled as bad and vice versa..the good/truth and the bad/falsehood are in mix together..weak people are in mix with actually strong people..you want to know who is strong? the one who is strong is the one who can lend an ear to your harsh truth..the other who is not strong will abandon you.
 

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55 year old INFJ and staunch capitalist here. I believe people would be happiest if they would accept the world on the world’s terms. Stay informed, but recognize that most news is inactionable and will only make you mad, if you let it.

There are really good people in all locations on the globe, in all segments of society. Many will even have opposing political viewpoints. Be friends anyway. The better society already exists, you just have to recognize it. An NF can choose any of the paths mentioned in the survey and advance that better society, all while improving their lot in life.
 

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I haven’t read the replies yet. I just posted something in the politics forum before I saw your thread because I need to understand the other side. I want to understand them. It’s like we all got a book with the same cover and we go to our book club and try to discuss what we’ve read but all our books had different content. “Wait! When did that happen? That’s not in my book.”

So actually I think the USA just elected an ENFP. I think Bernie Sanders might be an ENFP as well, although at this moment I’m slightly less certain. Joe so obviously is one. He already has started to connect us back to really worthwhile world organizations. Already today getting us back into the Paris agreement, putting out a National Mask mandate, and he is working on the WHO... thank God. I think what he has chosen to do first says so much about him. That he wants to join with the world to improve things and immediately work to protect us here... yay!


Luckily NFPs are already huge into the humorous and educational programs on the democratic side. Stephen Colbert (INFP). John Oliver (ENFP) Samantha Bee (NFP). Trever Noah and John Stewart are Ne doms, I’m not sure on ENFP or ENTP... I don’t care... they are spreading the word on the concepts that work. Jimmy Kimmel is either SFP or NFP, bless him. I’m not caring so much tonight about their exact type... I just want people with vision and understanding.

Yeah...education in schools is just so important. Donald Trump at one point was talking about teaching American Exceptionalist from a young age. That could ruin democracy right there. Also kids need to be taught critical thinking skills. Without critical thinking I think people drink the cool-aid.
 
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kids need to be taught critical thinking skills.
by questioning the things that they are learning and not just believing everything blindly for the sake of obtaining high grade in exam..i mean that's usually a Ti thing to do if they had the chance to do it..but i think you already knew this education is based upon a Te (Si is a plus ) construct and primarilly for a high Te user..that's why Te user always get the highest grade compared to a Ti user..but i would hope that education will be more of an NP+NJ construct rather than an SJ construct of education.. i think it will be more flexible if that actually happens worldwide
 

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by questioning the things that they are learning and not just believing everything blindly for the sake of obtaining high grade in exam..i mean that's usually a Ti thing to do if they had the chance to do it..but i think you already knew this education is based upon a Te (Si is a plus ) construct and primarilly for a high Te user..that's why Te user always get the highest grade compared to a Ti user..but i would hope that education will be more of an NP+NJ construct rather than an SJ construct of education.. i think it will be more flexible if that actually happens worldwide
I think the USA has STJ values in general and most educators are SJs before college. I heard from an MBTI certified person that S function is usually preferred in high school but that in college N is preferred. I do remember one ENTJ girl getting really good grades in college— the teachers thought she could do no wrong—, but I got good grades too.... plus I learned so much more about my multiple interests and Js often learn mostly what is put in front of them or one or two other things with their focus. I wouldn’t give any of my interests or personal learning up... eventually all the multiple interests just make us more inventive as NP. Our validvictorians were both INTPs I think, in high school.

Anyway, I think many people in the MBTI world associate critical thinking with TI but I actually think critical thinking is a skill apart from MBTI . Like playing the piano, any type can learn. But it needs to be taught and right now from what I understand, questions that take critical thinking don’t usually happen until Master’s level in college. That was also my experience, btw. Or writing. Writing develops critical thinking skills.
 

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You can't unify a society where people neither respect nor care about others. Most of my friends are liberals, and while that's fine, the thing that makes me not take them seriously is when they mock "the other side" with impunity. I have one friend who's always hating on religious people. I never told her I used to be religious. She acts like they're all insane. And obviously you see the same kind of behavior with conservatives. Both people on both sides indulge in willful blindness where they convince themselves that they're alright, it's the other side that needs to change.

Well, maybe the other side DOES need to change. But what good does yelling at them or spreading memes about them do? It just makes them dig in their heels, because they feel attacked. A basic understanding of psychology, or hell, even manners would go a long way toward breaking this vicious cycle.

It's like a really dysfunctional family. The kind where nobody can stand each other but for whatever reason can't get away from each other. Which is what happens in a country, or when you happen to all inhabit the same planet... So what's the solution?

When siblings fight their mother knocks their heads together and forces them to make up. And when things go right they grow up always forgiving each other and making peace even when they don't agree. Because the bond between them is greater than their individual wants.

Now that sounds corny but I think that's the answer, not critical thinking. Within a society, no two sides should be at a place where they would be willing to accuse the other of being worthless or evil, let alone draw guns on each other. When that happens in a family, the family usually falls apart for good.

If NFs could do anything, I think the best thing would be to be the best versions of themselves in whatever positions they occupy. Show the world how to be kind - to build bridges, not burn them. The exact industry doesn't matter, any field would benefit from a good example.

Critical thinking is useful, but only up to a point. A knife is only as good as the person wielding it. IMO the average person is better off listening to experts rather than trying to reason everything out themselves. This is how anti-vaxxers and flat earthers come into being.
 

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I think the USA has STJ values in general and most educators are SJs before college. I heard from an MBTI certified person that S function is usually preferred in high school but that in college N is preferred. I do remember one ENTJ girl getting really good grades in college— the teachers thought she could do no wrong—, but I got good grades too.... plus I learned so much more about my multiple interests and Js often learn mostly what is put in front of them or one or two other things with their focus. I wouldn’t give any of my interests or personal learning up... eventually all the multiple interests just make us more inventive as NP. Our validvictorians were both INTPs I think, in high school.

Anyway, I think many people in the MBTI world associate critical thinking with TI but I actually think critical thinking is a skill apart from MBTI . Like playing the piano, any type can learn. But it needs to be taught and right now from what I understand, questions that take critical thinking don’t usually happen until Master’s level in college. That was also my experience, btw. Or writing. Writing develops critical thinking skills.
it's funny that people still says that education still happen after getting out of college of somekind..the truth is critical thinking is needed everytime..but i can see that research-based master and phd would be much tougher atleast in academia
 

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@letsrunlikecrazy. I agree with your post and enjoyed reading it except that Critical thinking includes listening to the opinion of experts. Critical thinking isn’t my answer for everything... it’s just that people don’t learn to critically think and learning to would help them listen to experts. Maybe people think just forming an opinion is critical thinking? it’s much bigger. It’s reasoning that helps you discard improbable information, but anyway I agree and flat-earthers are one of the most disturbing manifestations of the disregard for science that is sweeping this country.
 

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You can't unify a society where people neither respect nor care about others. Most of my friends are liberals, and while that's fine, the thing that makes me not take them seriously is when they mock "the other side" with impunity. I have one friend who's always hating on religious people. I never told her I used to be religious. She acts like they're all insane. And obviously you see the same kind of behavior with conservatives. Both people on both sides indulge in willful blindness where they convince themselves that they're alright, it's the other side that needs to change.

Well, maybe the other side DOES need to change. But what good does yelling at them or spreading memes about them do? It just makes them dig in their heels, because they feel attacked. A basic understanding of psychology, or hell, even manners would go a long way toward breaking this vicious cycle.

It's like a really dysfunctional family. The kind where nobody can stand each other but for whatever reason can't get away from each other. Which is what happens in a country, or when you happen to all inhabit the same planet... So what's the solution?

When siblings fight their mother knocks their heads together and forces them to make up. And when things go right they grow up always forgiving each other and making peace even when they don't agree. Because the bond between them is greater than their individual wants.

Now that sounds corny but I think that's the answer, not critical thinking. Within a society, no two sides should be at a place where they would be willing to accuse the other of being worthless or evil, let alone draw guns on each other. When that happens in a family, the family usually falls apart for good.

If NFs could do anything, I think the best thing would be to be the best versions of themselves in whatever positions they occupy. Show the world how to be kind - to build bridges, not burn them. The exact industry doesn't matter, any field would benefit from a good example.

Critical thinking is useful, but only up to a point. A knife is only as good as the person wielding it. IMO the average person is better off listening to experts rather than trying to reason everything out themselves. This is how anti-vaxxers and flat earthers come into being.
So, so, so well put here..! One thing I would say here is instead of knocking heads with anti-vaxxers and flat earthers (neither of which I personally am), I like to think of them as bringing an important contribution to a debate which does not take place in a fair way. We all have our easy-to-understand rules in our societies, but in the end what takes place on a daily basis does not follow those rules. The only way for people to get through to the world is to create an absurd response. Often, it's the reason behind this which is really what's at stake. No one actually wants to sound insane. Insanity is the last door for people. If you're insane, nothing you say has any value at all. Everything nowadays is all about a little bit of manipulation.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Wow, somehow I think that NF could just work on any of those options!

Basically, I feel that NFs are needed to "humanize" an environment.

But personally, I feel that for now we could use more NFs on the education sector.
It's interesting that basically everyone voted for that option. I think the education system is a great start. I think neurodiversity needs to be taken into account in building an education system that leverages the unique strengths of each individual
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Political pundits only create division. Although revolutionizing corporate culture sounds fun, I think the correct answer here is education.
Yup, they are somewhat connected since the government has some level of control over the education system, but if an NF were to provide consulting to individual schools, they may be able to influence the micro-culture of the school
 

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Discussion Starter #19
What I've accepted is that nobody can truly be like me completely genetically, physically, emotionally, and mentally. Another thing I've accepted is that people are unique in their own ways. However, the point is that unity can be tricky considering that there are people that come from different subcultures, different cultures, different countries, and different experiences who have personal interests and personal lifestyles. Good luck unifying everyone.
I totally agree with you. Humans have arguments and disagree on things, that is normal. What I'd like to see if less perpetuation of people's differences in opinion and more of an effort to at least achieve some level of understanding of other people's differences, even if your opinion is different.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
I agree with the title. I was not so long ago reflecting on this statistic I saw once a few years ago, that INFJs are the least of all types to have a happy, successful career and the least likely to have a happy marriage. On top of that, INFJs are the rarest type (and therefore misunderstood and not bothered about). I eventually started to think that it is society's fault that INFJs are unsuccessful in these departments. Our society has values that simply do not coincide with the INFJ ego, potential and general image. By and large it is a capitalist society that values people who can keep the wheels churning. INFJs can play their robotic role like everyone else if they wish, but it often doesn't even seem to work out for us if we try. For example, INFJs are said to make great psychologists (drug pushers, in the end), but psychology is a pretty tragic profession for an INFJ, I think. And why would a one size fits all assessment of an individual's (and then an entire type's) career prospects possibly be of any real value?! MBTI is used to manipulate people to choose certain careers, or at least consider them and think them valuable. In the end this is a completely valueless system and I honestly think many people suffer from it. At the end of the day, education does little more than ruin children's lives... In a similar vein, too many people seem to follow the analogy that Hitler was an INFJ. Mistyping Hitler is one problem, but mistyping Hitler for the purposes of using some kind of collective scapegoat is another problem... "Pick on the weak ones and rig them that way" (I think Hitler was an ENFJ and I will hold to that belief until this terrible night is over, but this is another, entirely different discussion for another occasion). It's like as if people just can't behave! And sorry to bring that up, but the Nazis are bound to come up in every conversation that lasts for a considerable length, because it has been pre-determined in some horrible, iNtuitive way by Nazi physics, because the essence of human thought itself has been shattered to pieces by this history. Identity politics is a smaller issue in many ways, but people will take the fall for everything it involves. I simply do not know if there is a cure anymore.
I hear your frustrations. I too have found myself thinking similar thoughts. But I think the key for NFs is to come to a place of acceptance of society. Yes we are the minority, but I also believe our purpose is centered around changing the world for the better and improving others. We may have less value in the capitalist system, but not in the world on a grand scale. We have to shape our own paths. Many careers may not fit us, but we use our innovation and creativity to find ways to generate income that work for us and actually make a difference in the world. I wouldn't say psychology is a bad profession for an INFJ if they have a handle on their own emotions. Psychiatrists are the ones prescribing meds but as someone who has seen many therapists during my life, meds are only an option (and can actually be beneficial in certain cases).
 
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