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Discussion Starter #1
Some people say that women have high expectations of men.
Lets just say this is true (no judgements here, just accept it as fact), does this not inspire men to live upto these expectations?

If women did not have such high expectatons, would the world be a better place if men were not rising to it?
 
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What exactly are the high expectations that you're referring to?

I feel like, in order to know if MY expectations are high, I have to know what the average man isn't capable of in the first place. It's not like I'm expecting them to have so much money they're literally throwing it away at a dump, or holding every door open for me even when they're not around.

Also, the 'fact' is, you don't know what every woman expects of every man. And it's because you don't that this is hard to respond to.
 

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Some people say that women have high expectations of men.
Lets just say this is true (no judgements here, just accept it as fact), does this not inspire men to live upto these expectations?

If women did not have such high expectatons, would the world be a better place if men were not rising to it?
What we see in places that get the data to analyze (usually online dating apps) is that women naturally recreate unofficial polygamy - I don't remember the exact numbers but I think i was something like the top 30% of men fuck around the top 70% of women? It was something like that. You can individually rise up to live up to those expectations, but the relative nature of it means that men as a group can not, if all men rise no man rise, and if all men fall then the one who is falling slower is doing the rising.

Whether it's good or bad, eh... it's not something worth whining about, kind of like how women of certain ideologies whine about how men judge them unfairly for how they look, I don't think you can out-socially-engineer human sexuality to benefit society anyway because society is itself an expression of human sexuality.

I can say how it impacts me personally: On one hand I am a sucker to the ego stroke that is knowing someone chose me over tons of other options she saw me as better then... But on the other hand I am increasingly more vigilant of the need to filter and be picky and even shit test before making any real commitment, because frankly I don't want to get divorced again, and yet being a man doesn't exactly give you the best vantage point to do that... What is it that PUAs say? "The man never chooses the woman"? It's not entirely true - it's usually men who choose whether to see her again after the 3rd date - but it means you need to put forward your own sales pitch when you aren't sure yet whether you are interested just to buy some time and feel out if a relationship with her is an offer worth considering, and this is the cause for a lot of the frustrations both genders experience.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
What we see in places that get the data to analyze (usually online dating apps) is that women naturally recreate unofficial polygamy - I don't remember the exact numbers but I think i was something like the top 30% of men fuck around the top 70% of women? It was something like that. You can individually rise up to live up to those expectations, but the relative nature of it means that men as a group can not, if all men rise no man rise, and if all men fall then the one who is falling slower is doing the rising.
Theres some law regarding that, I cant remember what its called.... I will look into that later.

I get what you are saying, if men as a group rose up, then that level would become the new mediocre so no-one would stand out.

... What is it that PUAs say? "The man never chooses the woman"? It's not entirely true - it's usually men who choose whether to see her again after the 3rd date...
Ah yes, "The man never chooses the woman, all he can do is put his best self forward". Thats referring to initially meeting a woman, PUA has a dreadful cut off, as to what happens after sleeping with a woman. That said a lot of PUA coaches are rebranding themselves as relationship caches nowadays. I know for a fact that several of the big names do not cover this what so ever, its all good in as far as getting into bed with a woman, but after that, there is nothing. One of my personal big gripes with PUA, its great for cold approach mentality (Im really not a fan of techniques and tactics, Im more an inner game person myself), but it only covers that, nothing more. Which I guess is great if a guy really does just want to goto a bar and/or club every night to meet women, or run around shopping Mall's all day just doing solid day game, but personally I believe there is more to life and relationships than just doing that. Also if thats what a guy does with his life, then I cant honestly see women sticking around for long as they will realise that is all there is to him. That said, Im not dissing Cold Approach as in my eyes its a useful skill if someone does not wish to spend their time on online dating or as in my case has moved to new cities on more than one occasion where i have known nobody and had to build my social life from the ground up (and not gonna lie, I did have a big ego stroke when I realised it wasnt just fluke or me getting lucky the first time it happened as I have repeated the process).

Anyway I could probably write an essay on my views on PUA and where I believe certain schools of thought are lacking, but I can also see merit's as well so Im not.
 

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You know, we all have High expectations.. It actually depends on us.

So if we think we're efforting in life then we tend to choose a partner who's seems like got.. Joke jk.. XD
 

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If women did not have such high expectations, would the world be a better place if men were not rising to it?
No, in fact we as humans wouldn't have progressed nearly as far as we have if high expectations weren't pushing men towards being better in all areas.

However I will say that by my view the modern era is presenting quite a complicated challenge on multiple fronts that aren't being addressed in the capacity they need to be and it's causing all manner of chaos right now.

First off the number is something like an 80 - 20 split. Where the top 20% of men fuck and pursue the top 80% of women.

Back in the day without the internet, social media, dating apps etc this 80 -20 split was present in the regions that person navigated in and would be restricted geographically.

Therefore you had a fixed subset of men vying for the favor of a fixed subset of women. Now however that number has opened up exponentially to include millions of people. Not only that but the top 20% of men are being pursued by a vastly higher number of women than before.

So what about the other 80% of men around the world? Well that is why we see a strengthening in the number of men functionally isolating themselves in groups like MGTOW, getting swallowed up in identity politics of both the right and left, concerning themselves with their hobbies and interests.

The competitive margins that we used to operate in are overburdened with individuals. So those men who were unfortunate enough to be in the 80% have to try exponentially harder to compete. Not only that but because we are spoilt for choice it is a lot harder to trust and make judgements not just for ourselves but about the people we are picking.

The expectations back in the day also made sense in the cultural/social context that it was relevant to. Men were the primary breadwinners to support a family unit eventually so it made sense for women to hold men to high expectation when it came to things like that.

But now just look at the qualities that are asked for in men. You would be hard pressed to find even 10 men who fulfill all these qualities who are single and not just playing the field and actually looking for a serious relationship.

15 Things Women Look for in a Man Before Falling for Him

https://www.elitedaily.com/dating/gentlemen/7-things-every-guy-can-do-to-be-perfect-for-her

I think in order to survive we as individuals need to reassess our motivations for having such expectations, figure out what we can offer in a relationship and figure out if it is valid to have in contrast with the expectations and understand that expectations can only go so high before you are making life so much more harder for yourself.

This means women need to reevaluate how they come to their expectations and whether it is valid for them to do so and men especially the ones who stopped trying need to at the very least develop themselves to a point where they can be relatively competitive.
 

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I'm uncomfortable generalizing over 3 billion people.

There's women with high expectations, but there's ones with low expectations and men with either high or low expectations. I don't know if there are more women with high expectations than lower, but it's possible I guess? It might also be a classic case of confirmation bias on your part.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
No, in fact we as humans wouldn't have progressed nearly as far as we have if high expectations weren't pushing men towards being better in all areas.

However I will say that by my view the modern era is presenting quite a complicated challenge on multiple fronts that aren't being addressed in the capacity they need to be and it's causing all manner of chaos right now.

First off the number is something like an 80 - 20 split. Where the top 20% of men fuck and pursue the top 80% of women.

Back in the day without the internet, social media, dating apps etc this 80 -20 split was present in the regions that person navigated in and would be restricted geographically.

Therefore you had a fixed subset of men vying for the favor of a fixed subset of women. Now however that number has opened up exponentially to include millions of people. Not only that but the top 20% of men are being pursued by a vastly higher number of women than before.

So what about the other 80% of men around the world? Well that is why we see a strengthening in the number of men functionally isolating themselves in groups like MGTOW, getting swallowed up in identity politics of both the right and left, concerning themselves with their hobbies and interests.

The competitive margins that we used to operate in are overburdened with individuals. So those men who were unfortunate enough to be in the 80% have to try exponentially harder to compete. Not only that but because we are spoilt for choice it is a lot harder to trust and make judgements not just for ourselves but about the people we are picking.

The expectations back in the day also made sense in the cultural/social context that it was relevant to. Men were the primary breadwinners to support a family unit eventually so it made sense for women to hold men to high expectation when it came to things like that.

But now just look at the qualities that are asked for in men. You would be hard pressed to find even 10 men who fulfill all these qualities who are single and not just playing the field and actually looking for a serious relationship.

15 Things Women Look for in a Man Before Falling for Him

https://www.elitedaily.com/dating/gentlemen/7-things-every-guy-can-do-to-be-perfect-for-her

I think in order to survive we as individuals need to reassess our motivations for having such expectations, figure out what we can offer in a relationship and figure out if it is valid to have in contrast with the expectations and understand that expectations can only go so high before you are making life so much more harder for yourself.

This means women need to reevaluate how they come to their expectations and whether it is valid for them to do so and men especially the ones who stopped trying need to at the very least develop themselves to a point where they can be relatively competitive.
Found it, its the Pareto principle. It applies to more than just dating, in fact it applies to most things:

The Pareto principle (also known as the 80/20 rule, the law of the vital few, or the principle of factor sparsity) states that, for many events, roughly 80% of the effects come from 20% of the causes.
 
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Found it, its the Pareto principle. It applies to more than just dating, in fact it applies to most things:
I'm familiar with it thanks to Jordan Peterson. Definitely applies in fields of work with an achievable tiered goal that can be striven towards.

Can be applied to relationships as well, though I fear that because of humans being social animals requiring companionship, the fact that it is present among the dating spheres presents a problem of formulating an environment where a larger majority are unhappy and challenged with discontentment.

Not to mention that we have to acknowledge that beyond a certain point nature limits us and our environments limit our other potentials as well to the degree that force us to fight against them to be better constantly.

Also in terms of the principle itself it is backward if applied to women. If 80% of women are vying for the attention of the top 20% of men that is a lot of dissatisfied women and 80% of men with no motivation to be better since they do not have any women in their life challenging them to be better for them.
 
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Is difficult to talk about this when we don't have something as a reference, it's at this moment undefined. But We all have some common idea.

Some people say that women have high expectations of men
Yes, some have high expectations, some have unrealistic expectations. I've seen how many salesmen type of guys get away with it... without even proving anything, it's just convincing them, all pure lies. Back to the main point of expectations... seems dangerous to me. If any given woman has unrealistic or too high expectations the only thing that can come out from there is failure. Why? she has a problem and starts affecting other people.

When you are an adult with some experience you understand is not how high you can jump, is how high you can jump every day: I mean stability, something repeatable, something you and others can depend on.

Who puts this ideas on them? mother? father? first let me say it makes sense at some extent... during pregnancy the woman might experience some limitations so it makes sense to try to find someone who can deal with most things while she is there. "Not me?", said by many who ended up having a risky or delicate pregnancy... having to stay in bed for months. Then you can start asking yourself "we men, do we ask too little? should we ask for more?" this is where it gets interesting, many women in my region have problems during pregnancy, diagnosed by their doctors as having poor nutrition. So perhaps we men should also draw lines on expectations, but in reality many men fail at this because they don't even ask anything.

Parents... I remember past relationships where I wanted to fit some standard, most of it given by their parents, only to stop trying to make sense of it: father? your father is a cheater, corrupt business, etc and wants a saint for her daughter? you must be fucking kidding. I mean there are cases where the parents want something they are far away from.


Some people say that women have high expectations of men.
Lets just say this is true (no judgements here, just accept it as fact), does this not inspire men to live up to these expectations? If women did not have such high expectatons, would the world be a better place if men were not rising to it?
Please focus in the bold. As far as my own experience goes, and many of experienced friends (males), many women live in dreams, forget men, forget high expectations about men... many (yes I said many) women have unrealistic expectations when it comes to starting a business. The usual conclusion is... when you are on a relationship: don't get involved if she starts a business, things will usually FAIL and she will demand, expect and request things from you only to paint blame on you. "oh you don't believe in me", yes dear but I see reality and this will fail, it's not me who is punching you in the face, is life.

I have friends who made fun of my words, only to come later and said "fuck man you were right". If you (woman) thinks previous words mean women are bad for businesses, then you are a living proof of bad reading.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
I'm familiar with it thanks to Jordan Peterson. Definitely applies in fields of work with an achievable tiered goal that can be striven towards.

Can be applied to relationships as well, though I fear that because of humans being social animals requiring companionship, the fact that it is present among the dating spheres presents a problem of formulating an environment where a larger majority are unhappy and challenged with discontentment.

Not to mention that we have to acknowledge that beyond a certain point nature limits us and our environments limit our other potentials as well to the degree that force us to fight against them to be better constantly.

Also in terms of the principle itself it is backward if applied to women. If 80% of women are vying for the attention of the top 20% of men that is a lot of dissatisfied women and 80% of men with no motivation to be better since they do not have any women in their life challenging them to be better for them.
I translate it as 20% of men get 80% of the results (women).

However I also believe that this is subjective to the environment in which it is being observed.
 

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I translate it as 20% of men get 80% of the results (women).

However I also believe that this is subjective to the environment in which it is being observed.
Some of those men do not just get it, they work for it hard. But yes, it does come to then in a large majority.

By my experience it is observed in both western and eastern countries and cultures.
 

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Odd I am often shocked by the the low standards of women when it comes to men.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Some of those men do not just get it, they work for it hard. But yes, it does come to then in a large majority.

By my experience it is observed in both western and eastern countries and cultures.
Im not saying its handed to them on a plate.

Ive seen it in Meetup groups a few times, where most the guys are ignored or are just plain wierd. Then theres that one guy who seems to date and/or sleep with most the women one by one. Same as at School, theres the few popular guys and so on. I guess if this is observed from a larger scale (geographically) it probably would be 20% of the guys approx.
 
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Odd I am often shocked by the the low standards of women when it comes to men.
I used to be, but when I learnt that women are generally not as visual, the fact that women would date fat guys stopped being such a mystery.

Then I started asking myself "What traits do these guys posess".
 

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I don't think women have high expectations in general. It varies a lot.
This is also like saying that men have next to no expectations either and depend on the women to make something for themselves. But the truth is not like this at all, either. I don't see how generalizing like this serves anything good.
 

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Many women are delusional, lost contact with reality and have unrealistic expectations.
 

Bonnie is in the middle of a divorce, she says for years supported her family including husband. "I paid everything" were her words, her self image is one of success, over achiever, of "I can do everything" yet her divorce is proving different. Making numbers reveals the guy paid for almost everything (not her), in fact her own sallary can't paid for things now, should be easier now that she is not living with the lazy guy or paying rent (living with her sister), the simple conclusion is the numbers don't add up, her past doesn't match her words. Still she said wante a guy who wasn't a lazy bum, wants a guy who mirrors her in some way (success).

I know her, been there, was my GF years ago, she is getting it wrong. But the post is not about her, is about the many women like her getting a divorce facing reality that they are not as successful as they thought, specially about their unrealistic expectations. What makes this so valuable is me having an exGF who is a lawyer/attorney and couldn't believe her eyes when she worked on all those cases. Some are true, yes, but the amount of women failing to cope with reality was... devastating. We had arguments about this only to win by the numbers, each case after another proved many women don't have their feet on the ground. You woman reading this take offense? is not about you ok??? unless you fit the scenario.

In my region it is very rare for women to do everything, despite the so common victimism spread by the media. The usual case is men work and give their sallary, women work and it's for them (their sallary), that's the usual dominant scenario.

In many of those cases the journey begins when they (women) are left alone.


I was about to marry this woman and expectations were a problem, until she got promoted and then said "sorry, I complained about many things and used to work half as you, now that I work full day seems like I just can't handle what you experienced for years", we still talk about this, like 14 years later.

 

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Discussion Starter #19
I don't think women have high expectations in general. It varies a lot.
This is also like saying that men have next to no expectations either and depend on the women to make something for themselves. But the truth is not like this at all, either. I don't see how generalizing like this serves anything good.
OK question for you.

Ive read a few articles online, written by women about the hardships of being successful and how this seems to reduce the dating pool. One thing that is mentioned, is that guys now a days seem to be more interested in playing video games and getting high/drunk as opposed to studying and getting high paid jobs.

Now on a personal level this isn't something I relate to, Im not a gamer and Im not a druggie. However, assuming these guys are not on benefits. Why should there be this expectation, as men are not the breadwinner anymore just because they are the guy. So why do they need to be pushing themselves so much when there is no need?

Not sure if Im derailing my own thread here. But its something thats been puzzling me.
 

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I used to be, but when I learnt that women are generally not as visual, the fact that women would date fat guys stopped being such a mystery.

Then I started asking myself "What traits do these guys posess".
Not just fat guys but slobs. The guy who can't hold down a job because he is too busy keeping it 100% real on his sixth smoke break of the day. Sucking his teeth for 20 minutes after eating because ya know it's all about him. Soap is optional. The slime who plays who can degrade his wife in public the most with his loser friends, ect, ect ... Why do women put up with that yuck of a human being? There is Netflix.
 
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