[Homer Simpson]

Hello INFPs,

I did a Myers-Briggs personality thingy and came out INFP. Made me feel pretty good about myself and sometimes still does.

But today I came here to ask you for help:sad:.
I am a rather idealistic person... and I think I was led to believe in the wrong ideals. I put a lot work, time and effort and also a lot of emotions into pushing some political ideals that I now do not believe in any more... actually "do not believe in anymore" is an understatement, for I now think those ideals are dangerous for the world.

I did not want to belive in the wrong kind of things again, so I tried having no ideals at all... did not work out. It left me feeling empty and useless.
I am also feeling very bad about myself for pushing the wrong kind of ideals. I even lied to do so. Well, I did not feel bad about me then. I thought I was aiding humanity, but now I do feel bad about me and think I am a failure and worthless.

I just thought you might understand.

 

[WhatIMeantToSayWas]

I certainly know the shame of a political U-turn, fortunately i have my age at the time to blame, i dont think i did any real harm on that account. I wonder if one day ill U-turn again, but you know the faith you have in your ideals is unshakeable... that is until someone gets you all shook up. Im still young anyway.

I couldn't imagine living without any ideals. Say for example you were a "green", and you now think that green policies are bad in some way, this value judgement of your old ideals must be made relative to new ones. Which? As such i dont believe you dont have values, i think to even think you dont have values is a sign you need to clear your mind a little. And don't so much focus on the past.

It's the same with any sort of value change i guess, just buyer's remorse, but i appreciate its a very bad kind, given that you've affected other people.

 

[Homer Simpson]

Thank you so much for your answer. I do not know how to give that "official thanks" (the little hearts), but that is what I want to do now.
Let me be a little bit more specific about my situation.
I used to be a member of a socialist political party (joined when I was a teenager). When I however talked to persons, who had been living in a socialist country that really affected my opinion about socialism. I now think that is a good idea in theory, but in reality leads to a lot of bad things.

However, I would never call myself a right wing person or a conservative. I was just trying to have no ideals anymore. Don't know if that makes sense.

Do you want to tell me more about your U-turn?

 

[rbgj]

I'd say it's a clash between reality and ideals rather than an inherent fault of ideals. I know that feeling. :laughing:

 

[SLeigh]

Don't spend time re-hashing over and over what you felt you did wrong (easier said than done I know). Instead, look forward and see all the new possibilities you have to do the right thing. It's kind of exciting in a way because you have a whole different perspective open to you to explore. I have this weird thing I do when self-defeating thoughts plague me. In my mind I say, "hushhhhh" dragging out the "shhhh" until my mind goes blank. Then I think about something positive.

I don't know anything about politics but I did have my own conflict similar to this. I grew up a christian. I was still young enough to go to Sunday school when I started asking people questions that they couldn't answer. "How can God love us and still throw us to the pit of hell for minor infractions?", "Why is God a guy in the sky not a woman?", "If people wrote the bible how can we be so sure it's true?". Yeah, the adults didn't appreciate that very much. As I grew up, I noticed things I didn't like about this whole christian deal. Why is the pastor driving a Mercedes when he doesn't have a job? Why are women flirting with the pastor and talking bad about each other? Why did the pastor say everyone MUST contribute $100 next Sunday? Why are people clapping for that? LOL! It led me to believe that these people are either faking Christianity or they are brainwashed. Either way, I knew that was something I didn't want any part of. I got out. I started teaching my children about the spiritual side without all of the bull they try and scare you with. It never occurred to me that I may be wrong. I'm certain that this is what's right for me.

It looks like your certain about what you don't believe in anymore. So now the fun begins in exploring and finding what you DO believe in.

 

[freerace]

Hi, I hope you don't mind if I speak my mind on this matter. Me, I'm an INTP but only just so I know about the anguish you torment yourself with. This is my take on what you've said. I'm not an expert or qualified in any way that gives real gravitas to your issue but I am honest and my thoughts are time spent.

The F in me helps me understand you but the T in me has helped me deal with it, not that INTPs have the answer to everything by any means.

Einstein said it best when he said " a man should look for what is and not for what could be". Obviously, the word 'man' is fairly substituted, these days, by 'person'; the meaning is the same.

1. I think idealism is a kind of selfishness; anything else is wrong!
2. we must not confuse the ideal with the right; they are often different.
3. There is no such thing as a straight line; stop looking for it.
4. Being fluid is a way to survive but being rudderless is suicide.

All very vague and maybe interesting but for what it's worth, the best tip I ever had from my F point of view is.............
..............PAUSE..............24......7...............!!

Give yourself time for the impulses to subside and normalise. Give yourself time to adjust and don't be too impatient with your imperfections; you probably have fewer than you think. Just treat yourself as though you were your best friend; you'll be fine but above all...........................PAUSE.

FR

 

[Michael82]

Why is the pastor driving a Mercedes when he doesn't have a job? Why are women flirting with the pastor and talking bad about each other? Why did the pastor say everyone MUST contribute $100 next Sunday? Why are people clapping for that? LOL!

You should do stand-up comedy, LOL. With all do respect for people who have faith, I can see faith disconnected from religion (the not brainwashed part).

I really like the replies here, and I want to add that following one political party is not our thing because we are very authentic. Nothing more, nothing less. If politics were made up of subjects instead of parties then INFP's would excel for sure. We and I believe society, is not being treated correctly because politics should not be about political parties (unless they involve drinks, dancing and social thingies), politics should be about subjects that have been brought forward by ideas, science, observations, etc.

What we really want in the Western world is to be free from power-addicted politicians and their political parties and to make macro-economic decisions based on society instead of power. We actually don't want the national borders anymore even, I dare to say. We want to see a region where one can live and breathe without having to think of working on things that make no sense at all.

Okay I've had a long day I need to sleep

 

[gestalt]

What about Norway? Those guys seem to be doing all right.

Even australia, to a certain extent, has socialist policy. The problem is that there isn't enough of it. If ideas of equality were implemented the way they should be, we'd be up there with norway.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that neither Russia, China, East Germany, or Czech are examples of socialism but rather a corrupt form of dictatorship or oligarchy at best.

 

[Homer Simpson]

Thank you all. Your replies are helping me a lot! Really!!!

You are so right, when you tell me to stop re-hashing this over and over. I should focus on something new... it is just so very hard.
It's like I cannot forgive myself, when I make a mistake... while I think that everybody else deserves a second chance.

Freerace, you told me, I should treat myself as if I were my best friend. That is a good idea. Try to be a friend to myself.

My question is: how can I stop thinking that thoughts and focus on something new and not feel bad about me anymore? Your advice is really appreciated. Thanks.

 

[neologismaker]

1. I think idealism is a kind of selfishness; anything else is wrong!

Lusting after children is twisted. Raping a little kid is beyond evil. Genocide is beyond evil. 2 + 2 = 4.

You wanna argue? Let's do it. Tell me that I'm incorrect on any of these points.

As far as the actual thread @Homer Simpson: ... It happens. To all of us. The important thing is that you've resurfaced out of ignorance, so if you feel like you've done damage, you can make efforts to un-do it. Otherwise, you are free with your new knowledge.

 

[krentz]

You wanna argue? Let's do it. Tell me that I'm incorrect on any of these points.

Okay, fine. Let's have at it!

Lusting after children is twisted.

How so? That depends, I believe, on your opinions of the nature of paedophilia as a phenomenon. I hold that paedophilia, along with any other paraphilia and/or aspect of human sexuality, is inherent to the individual and an involuntary response. Thus a person could conceivably be attracted to, and even 'lust after', a child, but due to their rational faculties and empathy towards people, would restrain themselves from acting. Terms like 'twisted' are simply subjective value judgments which depend on an individual's criteria. To me, the most important thing is one's actions, and that people are not harmed; therefore I cannot hold thoughts as evil in and of themselves. The same goes for potential murderers and such. The human psyche, for all its recurring patterns and apparent simplicity, is an unfathomably complex beast, and has many dark and unexplored crevices yet.

Raping a little kid is beyond evil.

Much like 'twisted', 'evil' is also a moral judgment. However, in this case, as the harm done to the individual is real and undeniable, I would agree with your assessment. Above and beyond that, from a rational perspective, the damage done to the child's psychological development is often devastating, and carries with it the potential to cause an individual to lash out at others for the abuse they have suffered, perhaps become abusers themselves, or perhaps against the odds they will conquer the trauma and use it to fuel future success; such people are rare. Nevertheless, it is entirely unjust and one of the purest forms of apathy and selfishness I can conceive.

Genocide is beyond evil.

Well, now, I don't know about that. I would quite happily sanction the genocide of a large portion of the criminal population, who have perpetrated unspeakable horrors against their fellow man and whose genetics, upbringing and psychological profile show they are beyond hope of redemption. I'm only half joking, you know. But I know that in reality it would be a horrible thing, as well as utterly impractical.

But again, genocide... I would consider to be the most repugnant act on this list. One is merely a thought; it harms nobody. Another slashes at a person's very being, leaving a devastating wound that will never fully heal. But genocide is... an unspeakable abomination. You know, when I look at statistics on a sheet of paper, when I see that a million people have died, it doesn't really affect me emotionally at all, because I'm incapable of comprehending such magnitude. I was playing a war game the other day, though, that showed scenes of the D-Day Normandy landing. Normally it doesn't bother me, but I saw them, these people, during the cinematics, talking of hopes, of dreams, and of focus, rushing onto the beach, only to be mowed down on the spot. It wasn't just one, or two... but tens, even hundreds of people, mowed down so mercilessly. Even though they were only game characters, I knew that something like this must have happened. I stopped to think that these people could have had sons and daughters, brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers... and how brightly their life's flame might have burned, leaving its mark on the world, were it not for the freakish storm that blew them all out at once. To think that any one person can instigate such thoughtless, ruinous destruction... words fail me. For them, Hell is too kind a thought.

Right, now that that's done, @Homer Simpson, these are my words to you. It's not about the specifics, but the principles. It's unfair of you to be so hard on yourself for things you didn't know in the past. Ignorance is no great sin when one is able to freely admit their shortcomings and learn from them, and I am certain that, had you known then what you know now, you would have agreed with yourself in the present. Perhaps you had the facts wrong, you were a little misinformed... but you were fully committed to your cause, your heart in the right place. The principle is the same. If I were you, I would be able to hold my head up high. Rather than dwelling on what you didn't and perhaps even couldn't have known, I would instead look to the future and see what you can do next.

 

[neologismaker]

You wanna argue? Let's do it. Tell me that I'm incorrect on any of these points.

Okay, fine. Let's have at it!

Lusting after children is twisted.

How so? That depends, I believe, on your opinions of the nature of paedophilia as a phenomenon. I hold that paedophilia, along with any other paraphilia and/or aspect of human sexuality, is inherent to the individual and an involuntary response. Thus a person could conceivably be attracted to, and even 'lust after', a child, but due to their rational faculties and empathy towards people, would restrain themselves from acting. Terms like 'twisted' are simply subjective value judgments which depend on an individual's criteria. To me, the most important thing is one's actions, and that people are not harmed; therefore I cannot hold thoughts as evil in and of themselves. The same goes for potential murderers and such. The human psyche, for all its recurring patterns and apparent simplicity, is an unfathomably complex beast, and has many dark and unexplored crevices yet.

Raping a little kid is beyond evil.

Much like 'twisted', 'evil' is also a moral judgment. However, in this case, as the harm done to the individual is real and undeniable, I would agree with your assessment. Above and beyond that, from a rational perspective, the damage done to the child's psychological development is often devastating, and carries with it the potential to cause an individual to lash out at others for the abuse they have suffered, perhaps become abusers themselves, or perhaps against the odds they will conquer the trauma and use it to fuel future success; such people are rare. Nevertheless, it is entirely unjust and one of the purest forms of apathy and selfishness I can conceive.

Genocide is beyond evil.

Well, now, I don't know about that. I would quite happily sanction the genocide of a large portion of the criminal population, who have perpetrated unspeakable horrors against their fellow man and whose genetics, upbringing and psychological profile show they are beyond hope of redemption. I'm only half joking, you know. But I know that in reality it would be a horrible thing, as well as utterly impractical.

But again, genocide... I would consider to be the most repugnant act on this list. One is merely a thought; it harms nobody. Another slashes at a person's very being, leaving a devastating wound that will never fully heal. But genocide is... an unspeakable abomination. You know, when I look at statistics on a sheet of paper, when I see that a million people have died, it doesn't really affect me emotionally at all, because I'm incapable of comprehending such magnitude. I was playing a war game the other day, though, that showed scenes of the D-Day Normandy landing. Normally it doesn't bother me, but I saw them, these people, during the cinematics, talking of hopes, of dreams, and of focus, rushing onto the beach, only to be mowed down on the spot. It wasn't just one, or two... but tens, even hundreds of people, mowed down so mercilessly. Even though they were only game characters, I knew that something like this must have happened. I stopped to think that these people could have had sons and daughters, brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers... and how brightly their life's flame might have burned, leaving its mark on the world, were it not for the freakish storm that blew them all out at once. To think that any one person can instigate such thoughtless, ruinous destruction... words fail me. For them, Hell is too kind a thought.

I love an argument where everyone agrees about pretty much everything. xD

For sake of my own boredom, mostly~ Evil is a moral judgement, yes. As exemplified by the horrendous consequences of many mal-intentioned actions, evil exists. It is not a creepy shadow with glowing eyes who hides under our beds. Evil is acting upon dark desires and thoughts. I feel no shame in judging child molestation and genocide as evil. Sure, you could say a thought harms no one.

No one, that is, except the thinker. Our thoughts are the food of our minds. When we have poisonous ideas, we become poisonous. I don't mean to say that we should all be burned at the stake or taken to Room 101 for our inner darkness--but, at the same time, it is important to recognize what potential we each individually have to do terrible things. Only the individual can protect themselves from acting upon their thoughts. The more frequent the thought the stronger the urge to act upon it. If a person lusts after children, what would prevent them from finding child pornography if the person did not have a conscience? And what is a conscience if not a person's own moral judgments? When a company wants people to buy a product, they show frequent commercials to put French fries on the brain. Think about education, how children were once brain-washed by their textbooks into thinking this or that race of children just like them, was evil. The mind is humanity's most dangerous and powerful weapon. When we do not attempt to reject dark thoughts, we open ourselves to acting upon them. I chose "twisted" over "evil" because no, you're right, no child would be affected by mere thought unless that thought were connected to a reckless, selfish person's body.

 

[krentz]

I love an argument where everyone agrees about pretty much everything. xD

Hahaha, I read that over again and I kind of did agree with everything, didn't I? It just kind of came out of me. What can I say, I'm tired, that's my excuse. But just to refer back to what you said:

If a person lusts after children, what would prevent them from finding child pornography if the person did not have a conscience? And what is a conscience if not a person's own moral judgments?

That's just it: nothing would. However, I would be far more condemning of a person for their lack of conscience than I ever would for any thoughts they may have that I do not agree with. I also believe that, although the existence of child pornography is in itself a horror as for such a thing to exist, the events must have taken place, simply viewing it is, as far as criminal acts go, fairly innocuous. You deem those thoughts to be poisonous; I ask of you, do you consider your attraction to men as poisonous? If you were told you had to take a vow of celibacy this instant, what would happen? If you were told that not only were you unable to think about men in a sexual way, but that such thoughts would ultimately be your undoing, and would compel you to launch yourself on someone to relieve your sexual frustration, how would that make you feel? I know you can't really compare the two, as the power differentials and innocence that frequently accompanies childhood is vastly different to two adults, but it's the closest comparison I can come up with.

If I were put in that situation, though, I'll tell you - I wouldn't even allow myself to feel guilt - I'd balk at the suggestion. I believe that repression is more dangerous because it is essentially a denial of a part of yourself and that will manifest itself in either persistent depression or an explosion somewhere down the line where you really can't control your actions. In my opinion, embracing one's inner darkness, even when uncomfortable, allows for greater understanding, and thus, greater control. I really don't think that this sits on the same level as brainwashing, owing to my belief that sexual feelings are more inborn, whereas brainwashing and other forms of psychological manipulation are learned. That said, I do not deny that there is also a subset of people who, feeling as they do, are also deluded into thinking that their actions are not harmful. In such cases I am torn, as although I denounce their ignorance, I am not entirely without sympathy.

I also love how impressionistic my arguing and writing style is getting lately. I guess I'm just allowing my feelings more leeway; being persistently logical is hard work sometimes. Hopefully no factual errors result.

 

[neologismaker]

I believe that repression is more dangerous because it is essentially a denial of a part of yourself and that will manifest itself in either persistent depression or an explosion somewhere down the line where you really can't control your actions. In my opinion, embracing one's inner darkness, even when uncomfortable, allows for greater understanding, and thus, greater control.

I absolutely agree--in fact, this is the approach I (attempted to and possibly failed to~ xD) take in my argument: that only the indivual can edit themselves, and allowing lust to run wild can definitely be dangerous.

You deem those thoughts to be poisonous; I ask of you, do you consider your attraction to men as poisonous? If you were told you had to take a vow of celibacy this instant, what would happen? If you were told that not only were you unable to think about men in a sexual way, but that such thoughts would ultimately be your undoing, and would compel you to launch yourself on someone to relieve your sexual frustration, how would that make you feel?

I'm probably not a good example, as I've considered the nunnery xD However, that description is how the Church and other religious institutions have seen both male and female sexuality throughout history. I don't have a source but conjecture that cultural suppression of these instincts has let to the starved, unhealthy sexual culture today, where one is barely human if one's not consummating one's desires nightly. When unchecked, sexual thoughts and desires can cause unhealthy obsession and even loneliness because they are pleasurable, natural, and made to be acted upon with another person. When the focus of sexuality is sexuality, family units can fall apart because a spouse becomes unfaithful to meet their "need." Long-term relationships become superficial. Even in this scenario, raw sexual desire can be dangerous when "embracing" is translated to mean "fixating." It is the responsibility of every person to keep themselves from fixating on, anything, really--any kind of fixation is not only unhealthy but is also just as "learned" as brain-washing. Fixation, however, is self-imposed bombardment of information. I don't think fixation is any more unhealthy than suppression, but I don't see how it is any less healthy, either.

I also love how impressionistic my arguing and writing style is getting lately. I guess I'm just allowing my feelings more leeway; being persistently logical is hard work sometimes. Hopefully no factual errors result.

I don't say this because I originally made the statements: some morals are true to the point of being factual, for we can feel to the point of knowing. Morality is postulation: provable only in that it is difficult to disprove.

Meh, debate can be annoying when it becomes a question of "who" rather than "what" is right... sometimes--I love playing Devil's Advocate as much as the next person. xD

 

[DDrokenss]

It's okay to be wrong. Don't be stuck in indecision because of a fear of being wrong. The more times you are wrong, the more times you can correct it and grow. When I was 13, I was a fundie Christian and a right winger(These things were wrong for me personally, just going with family and people around me). Now I am 19 and am nowhere near either of those affiliations. It's a journey, just listen to your conscience.