[Xen23]

Link your own experience, evidence and thoughts in the thread please

Hypothesis:

* IQ* might be related to MBTI type
* MBTI type might be pre-existing instead of learned, inasmuch as it might determine life path even from an early age.
* Nurture might not play such an important a role in one's destiny as one's MBTI type
* ExxP types are less likely to realize their genetic/intellectual potential in an overly structured environment

More research needed:

A wider pool of observation is needed to compare MBTI/IQ/Na.vs.Nu/work ethic.

-Does MBTI determine your role in society/career as hinted by MBTI stereotypical descriptions?
-Is there sufficient evidence to suggest that MBTI type and IQ are related?

​

Note: This is the same study that is quoted all over the internet, yet only relates to one sample taken of 16x16 students at a school in 1986.


My own evidence:

I can draw up an easy comparison between my brother and I in terms of personality (which can be classified using MBTI) and how we differ because of it, despite having the same genetic factors, similar range of IQ and upbringing.

I had a professional psychological examination when I was 9, since I was tested for ADD. They said I had an IQ of 147 at the time, and suggested that I was understimulated rather than having full ADD (borderline however lol) and put forward the idea that maybe I'd be better off in a different type of school.

Sadly, my parents did nothing about it, so I ended up not fitting in with the 'right' people, doing minimum work, skipping classes, drinking alcohol and still getting A grades, which basically gave me the green card to not try, never do homework, and to prioritize fun; doing/researching whatever I please instead (YOLO attitude).

-I'm ENTP

My younger brother, on the other hand, never distracted other kids in class by ceaselessly chatting and fooling around. He always did his homework too.
Same genetics, abnormally high IQ, but he's always just been introverted and preferred computers to people. Now, he's aced his master's degree (distinction), has the job he's always wanted, and is determined to reach the top in his career.

-He's INTx

-Whereas, despite being older, I'm back doing my undergrad for the second time LOL (dropped out the first time because I literally chose to party over study).

Similarities:

*NT type
*Both highly creative
*Both apparently statistically in top 1% ability-wise*
*Both prioritize intellectual content
*Both overly-analytical
*Both put science, statistics and technology above people
*Neither of us ever cry or get angry LOL

Differences

*Brother is focussed, I'm NOT. E.g. I have exams all next week and I'm typing this instead.
*Brother has direction; career goals and ambitions. My ambition is to travel the globe to as many exotic and varied locations as possible (I have a saving fund for a tour of Asia right now).
*Brother prioritizes work, I prioritize fun.

What's your experience?

*Do you think that MBTI is pre-existant or learned?
*Do you think MBTI indicates career direction and level of academic achievement?
*Do you think that MBTI and IQ are linked?

*IQ - Discriminatory test that does not take into consideration socio-economic or ethnic factors.
-I do NOT consider any IQ test done online as valid they are only indicative (the average IQ according to people wouldn't be 100, which it's meant to be, it would be like 130 or so if everyone believed online junk). Needs professional assessment.
-IQ test technique, like any exam technique, can be learned thus invalidating any test.
-'Mensa' is an elitist circle-jerk full of boring, obsessive, linear erudites, likely all INTJ and with Aspergers. Well IME.
-Was sent to some dumb 'gifted child' meetings as a child pretty much was so my mother could show off how smart I apparently was (ie what a great parent she was) it was all fake, pretentious BS. Lots of assumptions were made about me when I was young, which led to my family being severely disappointed in how much I didn't achieve.
-My IQ never helped me. I think far, far too much. More than is healthy. Therefore I don't perhaps experience the fullness of life as much as I could.
-I expect most people on internet forums that deal with intellectual concepts to have an above average IQ anyway, so it's biased here

 

[Turi]

Cool thread, I'm about to head out to work so can't really put up a decent response ATM.

Just wanted to say my IQ was 130 when I was tested in school, in spite of this I would absolutely destroy anyone at spelling and maths, specifically the kids who were supposed to have higher IQ than me (or so they said).

My brain was just quicker than theirs.


As for nature/nurture.. hard to tell, I had a dysfunctional family, pretty bad upbringing, moved 14 times.. changed schools like 10 times.. always been a bit reserved because of this.


Not to mention I have 6 sisters and 1 brother, so I've had to deal with that and that sorta softened me a bit I guess.

I'm not a manly man ISTP.

I was always told by weirdo psychics etc that I was "golden" or "gifted" etc which I remember thinking at the time was a bunch of crap, I just thought everyone else was dumb as hell, I didn't think I was intelligent.

So, here I am at 29 as a telemarketer still studying my law degree that I'm fast losing interest in, with no real idea of what I truly want to do outside of play music and provide for my family.


Because I was so reserved, I'd always be told something is up with me - that I have ADD or ADHD etc or some kind of disorder.


People also equated my intuition, or gut feelings, with intelligence for reasons I can't explain - I get hunches about things and people and they're always bang on.
I frequently have déjà vu.

This has nothing to do with intelligence but people always thought I was "special" because of it.



A small part of me feels like I've let those people down, the ones who thought I'd be somebody, a bigger part of me thinks they were just full of shit in the first place.

 

[Xen23]

Here's a really useful site with some perhaps relevant statistics. It's interesting to look into:

ENTP Inventor | Oddly Developed Types

-linked from my type, you can find yours at top row

 

[Jeffrei]

The whole theory can't tell us anything concrete (and unbeknownst to most people, statistics can't either). All it can tell us is x percent of the time person A will be functioning as type xxxx. This is because there is no such thing as someone who is 100% one type. So trying to claim that IQ is directly connected to personality type, that someone is assigned a type at birth, and that nurture does not/can not play a significant role is going to be pretty dang hard.

However, you can add this to your data pool. I'm an ESFP with an above average IQ that is doing administrative work (behind the scenes as they call it) for an international organization. My last five major projects I finished before my judger counterparts. Plus I'm still in college and scholarships have payed for everything except for my books thus far. The best part is, it's all thanks to my ESFJ mom and INTP dad raising me differently than most parents raise their kids.

The fact that people like me exsist (it is highly unlikely that I am a unique case) makes it near impossible to accurately say that type directly effects IQ and that nurture doesn't play a part.

Also, I have a quick confession. I mostly posted this out of spite for people trying to find "scientific" or "statistical" excuses to say they are superior to others. I am not saying that's your intention in posting this. I am simply saying that people have a track record of sucking.

 

[0.M.I.A.0]

I do not do well in school overall.
I was always told I was very smart but just did not meet my potential.
I tend to have lop sided strength and weakness with IQ stuff.
It usually takes me a while to retain and learn something but once I have retained it I tend be very proficient.
I do not think my type is in spite of nurture. (Lol or I probably would have leaned more Ni or Ne as that was what was predominant in my household). I think my enny was effected from life experiences tho however.
I tend to get a lot of slack from bosses and praise for work ethic. I tend to be able to find the most productive ways to meet everyone's needs and do the job sufficiently in usually record timing. So then that means because I get my shit done right away I usually have a lot more time for play, down time, and breaks. I am fast yes but I always work out in my head which routes save the most time etc. So I usually get praised for decent work ethic. Really I just find the most effective route and have speed.

I like gloating silently to kiss ass coworkers
"Why does she get to have a break"
Probably because it's half shift in and I did all my tasks and half yours as well as some random shit no one had to ask me to do. Whelp I will kick my feet up and watch you rush :tongue:

My mother overall made sure we were cared for and our basic needs were met.
She being Intj had an affinity for arts and language. So I guess I was put or encouraged more towards that stuff. I was classified as ADHD. My mother did not put me on meds (thank gawd)
But what I think she should have done was engage more of my heavy Se had she known mbti. She should have signed me up for Hockey etc and encouraged those physical outlets. I just think it could have curtailed some of my pent up nature and rebellion in my later teens. She was always heavily exposed to SP tho growing up and I think wanted to raise us more cultured. I will say tho I have developed skills because of my heavy exposure to language and arts. Etc. As far as photography, coordinator skills etc. And well I am a bit more cultured than many SPs based on exposure. So with what was loss there was also gain. Could have avoided some of my rebellion but then maybe I would not have developed some things which have proved beneficial in my adult hood. I took the hard rebellion route but I think a lot of that was many many factors. I did grow up as the eldest and had a lot of exposure which was negative young and some undesirable things happen. And I was always the responsible one in many ways. So I think some of it was just because I was tired of holding the bag for everyone. Was bound to rebel. Anyways I think it's provided wisdom tho in retrospect. I got over it. But yeah Se stimulation could have helped.

I know I try and stimulate each of my daughters dom functions.
My Se dom daughters is in a lot of physical activities
My Ne dom daughter is in Science/Math Camp, A fine arts program, And Piano
I follow more so their natural inclinations and what they voice

 

[brightflashes]

MBTI is a combination of nature and nurture. Temperament is usually dictated by nature. For example, I've always been restless since childhood and have always had issues going to sleep. Certain personality styles and characteristics tend to show how a person's behavior has molded to form certain patterns. Usually patterns are learned by reinforcers in the environment (and internal reinforcers).

I don't know if it matters or not, but my IQ is around 130 +/- 5. I took a break during my Bachelor's degree program and went back later. I don't think I was mature enough for University the first time around. Additionally, I had a pretty stressful adolescence and I think I needed more time to catch up developmentally.

Oh, as far as work ethics, I am very dedicated to my work. I have three jobs, one of them is my own business that I have had for 14 years.

 

[Xen23]

MBTI is a combination of nature and nurture. Temperament is usually dictated by nature.

@Behavioural genetics:

https://web.stanford.edu/~wine/202/g-and-b.html

You know, when I've got my exams done with, I might find time to do a proper investigation into this and other subjects questioned in PerC
I'll make posts here ofc

-My interest in psychology is quickly becoming a hobby

 

[brightflashes]

@Xen23 I thought seriously about going into cognitive neuroscience, but Forensic Psychology stuck for some unexplainable reason (I never meant to go into it - it just happened to be the job opening available)

 

[Xen23]

@Xen23 I thought seriously about going into cognitive neuroscience, but Forensic Psychology stuck for some unexplainable reason (I never meant to go into it - it just happened to be the job opening available)

That sure is interesting

It's odd, I'm coming at the same thing from a slightly different angle. Am right now studying Pharmacology (literally revising for exam- well meant to be at least ) and want to do my masters in neuropharmacology (I got my reasons since I got an older bro too who is unfortunately schizophrenic and zombified with meds).
I'm really interested in the human brain and behavioural functions anyway, from every perspective, so I guess my time wasted in PerC might not even be wasted in the long run

 

[brightflashes]

@Xen23

Aw man! They didn't have pharmacology at the University where I studied. I had a knack for neurobiology, but never really found a degree program that would work for that. If you end up being a pharmacologist, please look into more D2 receptors to manage psychosis and changing the structure of the neuron to help the brain rid itself of dead cells in neurodegenerative disorders instead of whatever they're using now. They need a new approach.

oh and PS, I'm a huge fan of bacteriophages/biophages. I bet they could do some serious awesomeness in the brain as well.

 

[Xen23]

@Xen23

Aw man! They didn't have pharmacology at the University where I studied. I had a knack for neurobiology, but never really found a degree program that would work for that. If you end up being a pharmacologist, please look into more D2 receptors to manage psychosis and changing the structure of the neuron to help the brain rid itself of dead cells in neurodegenerative disorders instead of whatever they're using now. They need a new approach.

oh and PS, I'm a huge fan of bacteriophages/biophages. I bet they could do some serious awesomeness in the brain as well.

Another thing that might be of interest, my brother (the one mentioned in this thread) studied AI for his masters, specifying in neural networking and patterns. Looked into cognitive functions from an AI perspective, looked into phenomena such as flocking, routing and techno-Darwinism, researched into developing artificial intelligence systems and programs organic evolution...
So that's another perspective/dimension/insight to it altogether.

I'll link my bro's degree (so proud of him, he's so much more focussed than I)

You never know, organic might not even be the way forward. Nanochips and bots could soon supercede conventional medicine.
I discuss with my brother ideas like hippocampal chips or designer viruses for example...
Our conversations are sometimes off-the-wall scary

Yeh I'm REALLY interested in the hows, whys and ifs of psychosis as a matter of fact.
Got some peculiar theories too that are shared theories.
My best friend is a counsellor and studied psychology, sadly when I ask her questions, she seems to say, "I don't know," or "I didn't cover that," and also that she doesn't morally agree with the idea of testing medicines on animals...
Like I said, she's far more interested in talking therapies, though.

 

[justMatt]

The whole theory can't tell us anything concrete (and unbeknownst to most people, statistics can't either). All it can tell us is x percent of the time person A will be functioning as type xxxx. This is because there is no such thing as someone who is 100% one type. So trying to claim that IQ is directly connected to personality type, that someone is assigned a type at birth, and that nurture does not/can not play a significant role is going to be pretty dang hard.

However, you can add this to your data pool. I'm an ESFP with an above average IQ that is doing administrative work (behind the scenes as they call it) for an international organization. My last five major projects I finished before my judger counterparts. Plus I'm still in college and scholarships have payed for everything except for my books thus far. The best part is, it's all thanks to my ESFJ mom and INTP dad raising me differently than most parents raise their kids.

The fact that people like me exsist (it is highly unlikely that I am a unique case) makes it near impossible to accurately say that type directly effects IQ and that nurture doesn't play a part.

Also, I have a quick confession. I mostly posted this out of spite for people trying to find "scientific" or "statistical" excuses to say they are superior to others. I am not saying that's your intention in posting this. I am simply saying that people have a track record of sucking.

I am also an ESFP, who also does administrative work (BBA MGMT major) and I have a above average IQ. ESFP`s get such a bad rap, since people think we want to party XD

 

[reckful]

MBTI stats indicate that N is the largest MBTI-related contributor to standard, academic-related aspects of "intelligence" — and by a substantial margin — but introversion is a significant secondary contributor. There are lots of personality characteristics that more than one of the MBTI (and Big Five) dimensions have an influence on — and depending on what specific kind of intelligence somebody's focusing on, I think it's probably fair to say that three or four of the MBTI dimensions can potentially end up coming into play.

Tables 11.5 and 11.6 of the 1998 MBTI Manual show the results of two collections of studies, one involving tests of aptitude (IQ, SAT, ACT, etc.) and one involving grades or class standing. Each collection totals over 21,000 students. The Manual notes: "With only a few exceptions, IN types consistently obtained ranks, as predicted from theory, as the highest four types for both academic aptitude and grades. ... Perceiving types tended to rank higher on aptitude and Judging types on achievement."

Here are the types in rank order from Table 11.5 (16 aptitude samples):

INTP
INFP
INTJ
INFJ
ENTP
ENFP
ENTJ
ENFJ

ISTP
ISFP
ISTJ
ISFJ
ESTP
ESFP
ESTJ
ESFJ

And here are the types in rank order from Table 11.6 (15 samples involving grades or class standing):

INTJ
INFJ
INTP
INFP
ENTJ
ENFJ
ENTP
ENFP

ISTJ
ISFJ
ISTP
ISFP
ESTJ
ESFJ
ESTP
ESFP

Both the aptitude and grades tables are in perfect order from the standpoint of a dichotomy-centric explanation that says:

• For aptitude, the preference contributors (in order) are N, I, P and T.

• For grades, the preference contributors (in order) are N, I, J and T.

The OP pointed to this study of 5,700 gifted adolescents, and here are the self-selection ratios for the types (i.e., the ratio of their percentage among the gifted population to their percentage of the general population) in that study:

INTP 3.4
INTJ 2.87
INFP 2.68
INFJ 2.67
ENTP 2.32
ENFP 2.03
ENTJ 1.49
ENFJ 1.26
ISTJ 0.99
ISTP 0.78
ESTP 0.49
ISFJ 0.40
ISFP 0.40
ESFP 0.28
ESTJ 0.26
ESFJ 0.24

The order isn't quite as tidy as for those two MBTI Manual tables (especially for the T/F and J/P dimensions), but with the exception of the ESTPs, all the other types are in perfect order in relation to primary-N, secondary-I contributions.

----------------------------------------------------------------

On the nature/nurture issue, both Jung and Myers believed that type was largely inborn, and decades of twin studies strongly suggest that genes account for around half (or more) of the kinds of relatively stable personality dimensions measured by the MBTI and Big Five. But the genetics is complicated: an introvert's identical twin brother would probably be an introvert, but they might have two extraverted parents.

The most counterintuitive conclusion that's been drawn from the cumulative data is that how your parents raise you has almost no influence on your basic temperament — e.g., whether you'll end up an INTJ. Identical twins raised in the same household are not significantly more alike (in terms of temperament) than identical twins raised in separate households.

For more, see this post.

----------------------------------------------------------------

I'd say my I, N, T and J preferences are all pretty clear, and I'm in the top 1% in terms of both aptitude test scores and academic achievement.

 

[Xen23]

MBTI stats indicate that N is the largest MBTI-related contributor to standard, academic-related aspects of "intelligence" — and by a substantial margin — but introversion is a significant secondary contributor. There are lots of personality characteristics that more than one of the MBTI (and Big Five) dimensions have an influence on — and depending on what specific kind of intelligence somebody's focusing on, I think it's probably fair to say that three or four of the MBTI dimensions can potentially end up coming into play...

Etc...

Thank you so much for this info. Appreciated.

 

[Shiver]

*Do you think that MBTI is pre-existant or learned?

While realistically I'd say that we don't have enough data to say for sure either way, I'd probably be inclined to imagine a combination of the two, with the preferences themselves being "fixed" and the way the preferences are expressed being influenced more by the latter.

*Do you think MBTI indicates career direction and level of academic achievement?

I think certain types are more or less likely to succeed in certain areas or roles due to the way our society and educational systems are organized (or not organized, as the case may be).

*Do you think that MBTI and IQ are linked?

Stats aside, I tend to consider IQ tests as not getting to the root of what it actually seeks to measure, also being something of an "intuitive test" in general.

The official MBTI gave me preferences for INTP.

 

[Eset]

* IQ* might be related to MBTI type

 

My own evidence:
I can draw up an easy comparison between my brother and I in terms of personality (which can be classified using MBTI) and how we differ because of it, despite having the same genetic factors, similar range of IQ and upbringing.

I had a professional psychological examination when I was 9, since I was tested for ADD. They said I had an IQ of 147 at the time, and suggested that I was understimulated rather than having full ADD (borderline however lol) and put forward the idea that maybe I'd be better off in a different type of school.

Sadly, my parents did nothing about it, so I ended up not fitting in with the 'right' people, doing minimum work, skipping classes, drinking alcohol and still getting A grades, which basically gave me the green card to not try, never do homework, and to prioritize fun; doing/researching whatever I please instead (YOLO attitude).

-I'm ENTP

My younger brother, on the other hand, never distracted other kids in class by ceaselessly chatting and fooling around. He always did his homework too.
Same genetics, abnormally high IQ, but he's always just been introverted and preferred computers to people. Now, he's aced his master's degree (distinction), has the job he's always wanted, and is determined to reach the top in his career.

-He's INTx

-Whereas, despite being older, I'm back doing my undergrad for the second time LOL (dropped out the first time because I literally chose to party over study).

This is biased, you are using your own personal experience for this generalization.
If you want to know if IQ is related to MBTI then your population size needs to be bigger than just you and your brother.

*Do you think that MBTI is pre-existant or learned?

This is a nature or nurture question;
If it's nature then you are predetermined and you will lack free will,
If it's nurture then the idea one cannot change type is invalid.

*Do you think MBTI indicates career direction and level of academic achievement?

There is no evidence to support this.

 

[Xen23]

 

This is biased, you are using your own personal experience for this generalization.
If you want to know if IQ is related to MBTI then your population size needs to be bigger than just you and your brother.

 

That particular question about IQ was in reference to the sample of 16x16 I posted, not my experience. My experience was to illustrate that maybe nurture was not as big of an influence on development as is MBTI type, since both my brother and I had the same 'base stats' but developed differently. This entire exercise is to collect data and other peoples experiences and ideas for a grand plan at a later point.

These are questions that I pose to others.
I will be looking into these things in detail later as this develops.
I love researching things to their literal photons

 

[Kaioken]

I think IQ and MBTI are clearly related. It especially has to do with the N part. I don't know my IQ score, when I was a kid and did the test, my parents told me that they didn't want to give the score and that it wasn't a worry because it was a good one. I don't know if it's true or not, I know I'm gifted, I was always told so by psychologists, I knew how to read at age 4 and skipped a class because of it (is "skipped" the right term? In my native language it is).
But I always was shit at maths, I didn't like it, I was more fond of artistic fields andrewutp still today I wish to work in graphic design or maybe UI design. I was a wander easily bored in class, a P to a T.

But being smart didn't prevent me for being out of the scholar system for the next year, no schools accepted me, and even the master of my Uni denied me despite my good grades and me being overall one of the very good elements (while accepting others who I thought were below me when it comes to academics). Well I'm a bit bitter about it but life goes on I guess.

Honestly being smart is overrated. There are so many people with a lot of potential who end up doing not much because it's too hard to fit in. I don't think being considered gifted brought m a lot in life, except overthinking and a feeling of isolation. I don't care about good grades.

Maybe I will try to search about evidences proving the fact that IQ and MBTI are related and how nurture and nature have an influence or not. From a personal experience I think that you are born with it or not, how you are educated certainly can have a really big impact but you need to have something in the first place.

I hope my English isn't so bad, my phone keyboard makes me want to smash it, it's so slow.