[cyamitide]

Hi Fours

I have a question for you concerning the effect of your jungian type on your enneagram type - In what ways do you think your MBTI type make you different from 4s of different type? How does 4-ness manifests itself between different types? For example how would INFJ E4 be different from INFP E4?

I know this is a lot to consider here, after all there are so many types. For simplicity's sake you can view MBTI types as comprising of 4 groups, or temperaments:

- IP: the introverted perceiver
- IJ: the introverted judger
- EP: the extraverted perceiver
- EJ: the extraverted judger

How do you think 4s attitudes would manifest within these temperament groups?

and please be as creative in your explanations as you can :tongue:

 

[goodgracesbadinfluence]

I'm an INTP 4... that's an anomaly in itself, so I'll explain as an INTP. And you seem legitimately interested.

First of all, I feel like I need to say that I didn't just randomly make this up. I didn't just take one test and magically decide I'm a 4w5. The very first test I ever took told me I was a 4, but most tests have told me I'm a 5. I've always found the 4w5 description just a little more accurate. The enneagram is about who you are inside, about your inner desires and what drives you. I am driven by individuality, a longing for self-expression and self-understanding, and I can enjoy/appreciate being melancholy. Obviously it's deeper than that, I just don't feel like typing a lot. There is a lot of "oh, INTPs can't be 4s" stereotyping going around and I want people to know I did NOT make that decision lightly. I'm not even sure if I'm correct about my tritype (4w5 6w5 9w1) but that's the closest that rings true to me. I definitely relate to being a 469, but I'm getting off topic.

I definitely feel like I am INTP first, female second, 4w5 third. My Ti is super dominant and my enneagram doesn't interfere with that at all. My 4-ness makes me feel things deeper than most INTPs. I feel things very deeply, but I still suppress my emotions because I am still first and foremost a very logical person who believes emotion has no place in a lot of areas.

I am more individualistic than most INTPs. I care a lot about my outward appearance and how I dress, but not because I want people to think I'm attractive. I mean, I do want that of course, but that's not why I take care to dress nicely. I view my outward appearance of an expression of who I am inside. And in a way, I've centered my whole life around being different. I mean, I don't go out of my way to be different. I'm different enough on my own. But I want people to know. I want people to look at me and know I am different, even if they never talk to me or never see me again. I want to stand out in a crowd, but I don't actually want to be sought out by a lot of people. I have also spent the better part of eight years making sure I don't become a stereotypical female. Again, I'm not naturally feminine, but I never want to be the woman who allows her husband to control her, who is too afraid to stand up for herself, who lives her life by some other human's guidelines, who basically just can't hold her own. I will not be that person, and I'll take a lot of steps to avoid it.

Um, I'm not sure what else to say! If the OP has any other questions just ask!

 

[unico]

I am an INFJ 4w3. I've known far longer I was an INFJ than I've known I was a 4 (let alone with a 3 wing!). My Fe, 3 wing, and the other part of my tritype (6w7 and 9w1) make me very people-oriented, despite being an introvert. I like to be around a few close friends relatives over being alone. I am more in-touch with my own feelings and desires being a 4, compared to some INFJ's. I'd have to say I feel most like a 4, then an INFJ, then a woman, even though I relate very much to being female. Like @goodgracesbadinfluence, I use my clothes and physical appearance to reflect me (that could partly be due to being sp/sx, too, I think).

 

[goodgracesbadinfluence]

@unico I too am sp/sx.

 

[unico]

@unico I too am sp/sx.

Awesome!

 

[OrangeAppled]

4w5 possibly describes me a bit better than INFP even, although the Jungian Fi + Ne descriptions are pretty spot on for me. I'd say I am a pretty typical 4 all around, and this actually affects the kind of INFP I am more than vice versa. In most 4 descriptions, there's only a line or two at most that does not apply to me somehow. The ego fixation & core motivations all fit me as well. It took me some time to admit/see the envy in myself, but now it's glaringly apparent & explains a lot.

Sometimes there's a perception that 4s are drama queens, but I'm not dramatic in my interpersonal relations, IMO. I'm more indirectly dramatic, via something I create. However, I think it is pretty typical 4 to have a withdrawn, sullen demeanor that is more subtle than some attention-whoring, emotionally demonstrative way.

Being a 4 INFP, there are definitely some distinctions between me & INFP 9s, 5s & 6s. I see the biggest difference with 9s, who seem more people-focused in many ways. They just seem nicer in general. Even though they can get all cryptically sarcastic & moody, they still manage to put on pleasant social faces when called to. When INFP descriptions are "9 heavy", then I relate to them far less.

I admit to being a bit elitist, aloof towards others (and outright disinterested sometimes), and well, cranky. This is not necessarily heavily associated with INFPs. I've been accused of being cold a lot by family, and few IRL will see me as "romantic" in the modern sense, but I'm extremely idealistic & a "Romanticist" in the true sense. I'm generally pegged as "temperamental" more than "emotional" in a sentimental way, and the subtle distinction is important.

Family also tends to describe me as cerebral but artistic, highly principled, critical of anything that is not ideal, etc. In short, it's a less soft, sweet picture than the typical INFP description. I'm afraid sometimes I'm more admirable to people than likable... When I was a kid & I'd express insecuirty to my mom over having few friends, fearing I was just unlikeable, & she'd tell me, "But you're smart, pretty, & creative!" and I'd counter with, "Those are things people admire you for or even dislike you for, not things they befriend you over. People like people who make them feel good". So when people describe INFP positive traits along the lines of "nice & caring", I feel sort of left out, because I've always felt deficient there.

I'm rambling now...

 

[treeghost]

I would imagine being a 4 would flow better with xxxP's. The IJ in me always feels like I'm trying to control things, observing and simultaneously trying to catch what parts to cut off so I can come to a conclusion or something. I feel super rigid sometimes when a part of me just wants to yell FREEDOM!!! and randomly fly off somewhere.

Fe + Fi-ish qualities makes me really emotional. And the type 4 feels more 'me' then any other thing that describes me. I probably come off very xxTx-ish sometimes because of the intensity of INFJ combined with the serious intensity of 4s. I have a hard time balancing my needs and wants with other peoples' needs and wants. I can't help but think that being an INFJ 4 makes me more of a selfish INFJ, or moreso than other INFJs of different types maybe.. it also makes me more remorseful. I am very interested in people and feel like I always want to just penetrate them but I can't entirely without being known myself. So I sneak around, and distract people and throw them off on a tangent sometimes. No bad intentions though hehe. I guess it's not fair but I start letting parts of me slip if I know for sure that the other person won't hurt/reject me or make me feel lesser than or something. I used to be very blunt and expressive in my speech but then one of my cousins pointed out that 'dang, you've got more of an attitude then I do' and it made me reflect a lot on how I came off. Not that I think having a bit of a 'tude is anything bad, I actually think some people don't mind it, but I became really paranoid over the years on my affect on people. Now I'm always caring if people understand where I'm coming from or not, if I am offending them or hurting their feelings, trying to be overtly nice and whatever else. It has inhibited me a lot but I'm trying to get over that now and just get back to being myself.

I find it fascinating how each types show up differently according to MBTI. :] How I think of it is that your enneagram is at your core while MBTI are the outer layers, cognitive functions that act as filters. It has more to do with just those two though - personal experiences and relationships, instinctual variants, etc.

 

[Jewl]

Well, I'm not a type Four, and quite far from it. I very much go with the flow. However, my sister is a 4w3. For sure. ^^ She's an ESTJ. Also for sure. She's more "introverted" than her fellow ESTJs, for one thing, although she's still very much an extrovert.

At first I wanted to pin her as a 3w4. However, after much studying into the Enneagram, both of us decided that she couldn't be a 3w4. She's got drive, but she doesn't distance herself from her emotions. She keeps them close. She doesn't appear as though she is an extremely emotional person. But then there are moments where she really opens up to me and I see this sensitive person who is very in touch with herself all the time. She's got some self-image problems in that she always does want to look unique and pretty, but she doesn't always feel that way.

She feels strongly. And she does feel strongly for other people.

She jokes about being a true "hipster". But then says that now being hipster is too mainstream, and therefore rejects the title. XD Lol. She loves being unique and individual. Her identity is everything to her. Very important. She's an artist as well. A very talented one. Not that these things can really make a person a Four. They were contributing factors, though. ^^

It took a lot of looking into this before we both realized Four fit her like a glove. Specifically the descriptions of 4w3.

I was surprised at first because the typical stereotype of Four is a person who feels strong emotions, is a bit if not very pessimistic, feels constantly misunderstood, and "suffers" a lot. Oh yes, tag onto that the strong identity and want to express yourself in a unique way and you've got Four in a nutshell.

But I find that the above description isn't necessarily Four. Not all Fours are going to be Introverted and feel constantly misunderstood. They can in fact be optimistic and outgoing.

My sister is two years younger than me, but very mature for her age. I look up to her and respect her even though she's younger than me. ^^

 

[lactosecat]

ENFP 4w3 hereeee.

I feel a lot less happy than the other ENFPs. :/ I hide a lot more, I connect a lot less with people. I have less energy and patience. I feel like I have less confidence.

-__-

 

[Anubis]

Well, I'm not a type Four, and quite far from it. I very much go with the flow. However, my sister is a 4w3. For sure. ^^ She's an ESTJ. Also for sure. She's more "introverted" than her fellow ESTJs, for one thing, although she's still very much an extrovert.

At first I wanted to pin her as a 3w4. However, after much studying into the Enneagram, both of us decided that she couldn't be a 3w4. She's got drive, but she doesn't distance herself from her emotions. She keeps them close. She doesn't appear as though she is an extremely emotional person. But then there are moments where she really opens up to me and I see this sensitive person who is very in touch with herself all the time. She's got some self-image problems in that she always does want to look unique and pretty, but she doesn't always feel that way.

She feels strongly. And she does feel strongly for other people.

She jokes about being a true "hipster". But then says that now being hipster is too mainstream, and therefore rejects the title. XD Lol. She loves being unique and individual. Her identity is everything to her. Very important. She's an artist as well. A very talented one. Not that these things can really make a person a Four. They were contributing factors, though. ^^

It took a lot of looking into this before we both realized Four fit her like a glove. Specifically the descriptions of 4w3.

I was surprised at first because the typical stereotype of Four is a person who feels strong emotions, is a bit if not very pessimistic, feels constantly misunderstood, and "suffers" a lot. Oh yes, tag onto that the strong identity and want to express yourself in a unique way and you've got Four in a nutshell.

But I find that the above description isn't necessarily Four. Not all Fours are going to be Introverted and feel constantly misunderstood. They can in fact be optimistic and outgoing.

My sister is two years younger than me, but very mature for her age. I look up to her and respect her even though she's younger than me. ^^

I think my papa (grandfather) is a type 4w3 too. He's ISTJ.

It's very interesting but I can relate my experience with him to yours and your sisters. He's organized, dutiful and seemingly unemotional. When you can gain his trust 105% though, he opens up and you see this interior of emotion and drive for individuality.

He loves to analyze books, movies, art. Especially the ones that reveal something dark, macabre or melancholic. We are two completely different types of people, but deep down inside when we both have our defenses low, we relate completely.

I think the ISTJ, ESTJ and INFP can actually be very similar... I know it sounds crazy, but it's true. All three of these types seem cold and unemotional until you truly get to know us. People always think I'm INTJ or INTP or something. But I have this deep well of emotion, melancholy and individuality that is only expressed with those I trust. ISTJ is practically the same. (By my experience, not type descriptions.)

 

[Anubis]

I'm an INTP 4... that's an anomaly in itself, so I'll explain as an INTP. And you seem legitimately interested.

First of all, I feel like I need to say that I didn't just randomly make this up. I didn't just take one test and magically decide I'm a 4w5. The very first test I ever took told me I was a 4, but most tests have told me I'm a 5. I've always found the 4w5 description just a little more accurate. The enneagram is about who you are inside, about your inner desires and what drives you. I am driven by individuality, a longing for self-expression and self-understanding, and I can enjoy/appreciate being melancholy. Obviously it's deeper than that, I just don't feel like typing a lot. There is a lot of "oh, INTPs can't be 4s" stereotyping going around and I want people to know I did NOT make that decision lightly. I'm not even sure if I'm correct about my tritype (4w5 6w5 9w1) but that's the closest that rings true to me. I definitely relate to being a 469, but I'm getting off topic.

I definitely feel like I am INTP first, female second, 4w5 third. My Ti is super dominant and my enneagram doesn't interfere with that at all. My 4-ness makes me feel things deeper than most INTPs. I feel things very deeply, but I still suppress my emotions because I am still first and foremost a very logical person who believes emotion has no place in a lot of areas.

I am more individualistic than most INTPs. I care a lot about my outward appearance and how I dress, but not because I want people to think I'm attractive. I mean, I do want that of course, but that's not why I take care to dress nicely. I view my outward appearance of an expression of who I am inside. And in a way, I've centered my whole life around being different. I mean, I don't go out of my way to be different. I'm different enough on my own. But I want people to know. I want people to look at me and know I am different, even if they never talk to me or never see me again. I want to stand out in a crowd, but I don't actually want to be sought out by a lot of people. I have also spent the better part of eight years making sure I don't become a stereotypical female. Again, I'm not naturally feminine, but I never want to be the woman who allows her husband to control her, who is too afraid to stand up for herself, who lives her life by some other human's guidelines, who basically just can't hold her own. I will not be that person, and I'll take a lot of steps to avoid it.

Um, I'm not sure what else to say! If the OP has any other questions just ask!

Great post. I know an INTP 4w5. He was an old teacher of mine and he sounds so much like how you describe yourself.

 

[goodgracesbadinfluence]

Great post. I know an INTP 4w5. He was an old teacher of mine and he sounds so much like how you describe yourself.

I would love to meet another INTP 4w5. What did he teach? It's funny 'cause I want to be a teacher as well.

 

[Anubis]

I would love to meet another INTP 4w5. What did he teach? It's funny 'cause I want to be a teacher as well.

He taught Latin, World Civilizations, American History and Physics.

You should! He was the most unique teacher and person i've ever met. He was an awesome teacher. I related to him a lot and we had many deep discussions

 

[PisceanReve]

I'm an ENTP 4w3 and I believe the strong 3 comes from my ENTP-ness. Looking at it now, I believe that enneagram is who you truly are and MBTI is more of a persona. I act very EXXP in social situations definitely. Of course my Ne is a huge part of me, but the Fe has definitely been developed for social situations. My real self is the 4, which very few people see. To me, it is an introverted, feeling enneagram. I believe I'm a lot like other 4's regardless of MBTI, but I might be more rational about inner turbulence and a bit less into gothic or romantic things. Everything else is perfect though.

 

[NingenExp]

Since I heard about the enneagram theory, I have doubted if I am really a four or not. It will not sound really fourish, but I have been trying stupidly to fit into the esence of one of the enneatypes, mostly because I want others to feel true the truths I find in myself. I want them to believe I am interesting too. I want them to believe that I have something I'm outstanding the rest. I want to be that something for others to remember me. I want that something to be just mine. I want to impress strongly others too, not because I want to be liked, just because I want to be there and seen. I don't care if it's a neat image, it can be repulsive or scary too. I want others to feel I'm not just anyone. I don't know if this is really something four, but I think it is definately something from the image-triad, even if I over analyze things and I have a lot of anxiety. The other day I concluded that I was not able to judge the information that I was completely aware of. I notice lots of the same information from me, mostly, and my surroundings from different points of view, but I'm not able to conclude which one is more true. There's at the bottom some sense of truth, my truth, but in someway I neglect it. I am aware of all of my contradictions and my different behaviours in different situations and the different possibilities, but I feel I am not able to weight them all. I am sure I want to tell my loved ones something true about me, but watching everything is overwhelming.

Leaving behind this dilemma, the first time I took an enneagram test, it revealed I was 4w5. All of my friends that time thought I was actually a five because they saw me as a genius. I have always denied it. I don't know if I am a four or not, but today I discovered I am an ESFP because of the cognitive functions order. When I read ESFP descripitions, they sound oddly like me. I'm some sort of entertainer. I love telling stories and I love adding them my personal mark. When I tell a story I try it to be the most original possible. But it's strange to think I am extroverted, because I feel more me when I am alone. I think that makes me different from other ESFPs. I'm also a little bit histrionic in my oral expression. I love intensity in spoken language. I'm not a party monster just like the stereotyped ESFPs, but if I think about my life since I was a kid, I have always demanded a lot of attention, just like ESFPs. If I am a four, a 4w3 heavy wing, I think my ESFP makes me more demandant that the average four and less feeling misunderstood. I'm less optimistic than the average ESFP and compared with other fours, my persona is more goofy but yet aloof, but not in my dressing presentation. It is more in my performance. In my way of acting. Sometimes I love to act something from nowhere and to confuse people about who I really am. I enjoy being ambiguous and unpredictable. Sometimes I feel I am just faking it or doing silly things just to please people.

 

[basementbugs]

Well apparently @OrangeAppled did all the hard work for me in this post, so I don't have to write a big long spiel about myself; everything said there more or less describes me fairly well, including the part about 4w5 being somewhat more accurate than INFP. (Additional note: I'm also RLUEI, though primary limbic. Random FYI. )

 

[MilkyLatte]

I'm an INFP. For a long time I typed myself as 4w5, but I've come to think I'm more like a 4w3. The main thing that kept me from thinking that I was a 4w3 was a misplaced believe I had, that you'd have to more or less look like this to "qualify". Also, 4w3 is descriped as very outgoing and dramatic. I considered myself as being the opposite of that and I am, but only when interacting with strangers or people I don't really care about; otherwise I can be very dramatic and quite outgoing. It probably correlates with me being an introvert; I prefer the company of my close friends/family to the company of strangers and acquaintances.

I could imagine that I'm more scared of conflicts than XXXJ 4's as my judging function (Fi, my primary function) is introverted, making verbal judgments less appealing to me; I'm very 9'ish in that sense, but I do it consciously because I wouldn't risk critique; due to my poor Je skills, I wouldn't be able to properly defend myself. Plus I'm quite naive, so I'd most likely end up believing every word they say.

Other than that, I agree with OrangeAppled that I'd fit the INFP description better if the "nice and caring"-part is toned down.

 

[DreamStepper]

Hey, I'm an INFP 4w5.

I'm a really deeply felt person. I am always melancholy and I enjoy it; I am content in it. I enjoy nature, so much, I go out to this beautiful (and dangerous:tongue cliff every possible time I can and just lay down on it and get lost in my thoughts and nature. Absolute peace there. I express myself through art and music also. I play several instruments and paint, draw... many things.
I'm so introverted though. That's part of the reason that I consider myself to be a 4w5. I can be alone for days on end- I don't like people. I can't stand parties for very long at all, and then, I'm just sorta dead on the inside. Then I stay alone for a long time and I'm to my normal melancholy.

I also have this weird sliver of T in me. My best friend is an INTP and I think that it makes the relationship easier because of that. She is a 5w4 by the way.. (which I find interesting that I'm an INFP 4w5 and she's INTP 5w4) We kind of get along in this weird way.

I'm also a very good student but I hate studying and homework so my grades sometimes don't reflect what I can really do. I love to learn though. But the school environment kills me. People aren't there to learn, there to socialize.

I can't have a romantic relationship though. I'm too afraid to show someone my feelings (Oh Fi, I love you so) and I'm really okay with calling myself "forever alone":tongue::happy:

 

[dollybones_90]

<q>Family also tends to describe me as cerebral but artistic, highly principled, critical of anything that is not ideal, etc. In short, it's a less soft, sweet picture than the typical INFP description. I'm afraid sometimes I'm more admirable to people than likable... When I was a kid & I'd express insecuirty to my mom over having few friends, fearing I was just unlikeable, & she'd tell me, "But you're smart, pretty, & creative!" and I'd counter with, "Those are things people admire you for or even dislike you for, not things they befriend you over. People like people who make them feel good". So when people describe INFP positive traits along the lines of "nice & caring", I feel sort of left out, because I've always felt deficient there.</q>

I'm a type 4 INFP too and I can completely relate to this paragraph. In highschool I kind of went out of my way not to be attractive or creative. I thought I'd have even less friends if I was perceived that way. I can be a nice and caring person, but I'm often too focused on myself.

 

[Andre]

I am an ENFP 4w5 sx/sp - think about how paradoxical that combo is. But it is all true. My life is "typical" ENFP when I am confident, when I am not I begin to be more insecure and envious and I act like a loner. I have a constant conflict within myself to be there but not really be there. I don't really feel like typing though if I did I would explain it all and even maybe put in an example or five. Nevertheless, to reiterate, Think about how paradoxical that combination is, its dangerous and self-destructive.