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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
can you (ISTP's) tell me how your Ni is stronger or better developed than your inferior Fe? real life examples also welcome :)
 

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The short version: It's not about it being stronger, but about us using it in a better way.

You could probably think of it like this: Ni supports our primary Ti, while Fe pretty much excludes it from the judgment process. Ni is a mapping functions that lets us more or less instinctively understand the processes involved in a system that we then can use our Ti to make value judgments of.
Fe is another judging function, and we're usually not very comfortable with the kind of value judgments it makes, because it works in an entirely different way than Ti.
 

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I agree with most of Zynthaxx points but I differ on how Fe relates to Ni and vice versa.

Fe can make use of Ni perceptions to form judgements as well- though it feels less thought out and deliberate than Ti's judgements. For example, if someone near to me has an abrupt change of mood, Fe can easily jump to the wrong conclusion through Ni perceptions by taking the incident as a personal attack though it may just be coincidence.

A personal example. I tend to draw...inappropriate stuff in my sketchbook and at a family dinner, my fairly strictly religious aunt asked if she could look through it. I...knew it'd be even more awkward if I refused, besides I was tired of always being on guard, so I just passed it over. She flipped through briefly and her expression became strained and awkward- my first thought was "Fuck. I knew she wouldn't like the page with the naked people of questionable gender." After that I begun to strain myself, trying to decipher her reactions and her true thoughts towards my sketchbook, pushing my Ni and Fe to the limits and stressing myself out unnecessarily imagining the worse shit she could possibly say. This is bad usage of Ni-Fe to me, taking on the supposed values of others, and getting hung up on what we think those values would be concerned with.

In the end, it didn't really matter. We still had an awesome time, I fished with her, joked with her, and ate with her all the same. For all my worries, the sketchbook wasn't really anything big despite my inner overreaction. I was also able to let things go and allow Se to change my perception of the situation....which to me is also a sign of mature Fe development.


Though yeah, as he mentioned. It is not about strength but about control and mastery.

But if you're focusing on strength and development...basically any ISTP at any age can access Fe easily- but not many can master or control it since it is our inferior. Most would rather ignore it or pretend that it doesn't exist. Ni is somewhat more obscure, and not as easily seen or picked out- whether as a weakness or as a strength. Fe feels stronger but is harder to develop. Ni feels weaker but isn't as tough to master.

Personally, Ni as a perceiving function works better the older I get. Fe has always been around, but it feels as hair trigger as always, like a stray cat it just never seems tamed. Even while docile, it is ready to scratch and bolt at any moment. There are days when I base my decision making around Fe-criteria, and there are days when I just can't understand why I'd bother so much.

Ni however, brought me lots of frustration when I was younger because I couldn't see where it was going, or what it was trying to say- now that I'm a little older with more experience and knowledge, I can make sense out of Ni. Its like trying to fill in a crossword puzzle when your vocabulary is lacking. Ni can tell you what sort of word it should be, but you need Ti / Fe to find the exact answer you need.

I would say that I like using Ni more than Fe. Since Fe tends to get me in trouble if I'm not careful, while Ni opens up my mind to alternatives.
 

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I have probably spent most of my life in a Ti - Ni loop, and yeah, what was said about Ni complementing Ti better makes sense to me. I think its why loops work the way they do (both introverted or both extroverted functions in your type pairing up). A loop is probably just a more extreme prolonged version of the functions complimenting each other, you can rely on that too much.

I have a lot of access to Ni, but being in the company of my actual Ni dom friends, its obvious that its not my leading function. My Fe is awkward.
 

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I use my Ni to anticipate things by seeing patterns, or by linking facts together and in turn guessing what will happen next. It feels good when it works. I don't just use it for fun like a Ni-dom would though. I use it to help a situation, mostly.

Examples?? Watching movies. After you see a few movies in a certain genre you can pretty much tell what is going to happen next even if you haven't watched a film before.(the best movies stop this from happening though.)

In video games I find i use my Ni a lot by counter playing my opponents. I use the information I have to guess what their next step is.

To chip in on the Fe-Ni discussion, I find that when I apply my Ni and Fe together, it is always way off ball. I try to avoid doing this. I have more success applying Se-Fe. Ni-Fe makes my grasp air and place a wrong judgement on it combined with poor implementation.

To alliterate: Fuck dat Fe.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
The short version: It's not about it being stronger, but about us using it in a better way.
Oh yeah sorry I totally worded that wrong. I did mean control over the function instead of function "strength".


You could probably think of it like this: Ni supports our primary Ti, while Fe pretty much excludes it from the judgment process. Ni is a mapping functions that lets us more or less instinctively understand the processes involved in a system that we then can use our Ti to make value judgments of.
Fe is another judging function, and we're usually not very comfortable with the kind of value judgments it makes, because it works in an entirely different way than Ti.
Yea that makes sense but it leaves me wondering, where is the Se in all that. Doesn't the Ti go with Se more naturally than with Ni or in your experience is that actually not so black and white? (Recall those debates about whether the auxiliary function is the same attitude as the dominant or not...)

How Ni for me can contribute to Ti understanding, well that is not usually quite done in a conscious way. It's more about somewhat feeling e.g. a concept in a vague abstract way. And sometimes eureka moments where it all clicks together. That usually happens after lots of data processing and is not under conscious control at all.

How conscious is Ni for you?

Also Fe, what actually gets in the way of liking to use it as a judgment function? I mean, how do you see it different from Ti judgments? Is it just simply that you have a hard time focusing on other people or is it common Fe "rules" that you clash with? (The "rules" thing though might be Ti-ish...)


I agree with most of Zynthaxx points but I differ on how Fe relates to Ni and vice versa.

Fe can make use of Ni perceptions to form judgements as well- though it feels less thought out and deliberate than Ti's judgements. For example, if someone near to me has an abrupt change of mood, Fe can easily jump to the wrong conclusion through Ni perceptions by taking the incident as a personal attack though it may just be coincidence.
Yes that makes a lot of sense.


But if you're focusing on strength and development...basically any ISTP at any age can access Fe easily- but not many can master or control it since it is our inferior. Most would rather ignore it or pretend that it doesn't exist. Ni is somewhat more obscure, and not as easily seen or picked out- whether as a weakness or as a strength. Fe feels stronger but is harder to develop. Ni feels weaker but isn't as tough to master.
That's a bit scary because that's how it seems to me too. (Why scary: refer to the Ti thread we've been talking in ;) )

I am not sure if that's defining though for ESTP vs ISTP. I don't really see a reason at this point as to why it should be defining.

Plus maybe I'm not thinking enough of Ni examples where it felt at least as "strong" as Fe. There may have been 1-2 such cases but rare.


Personally, Ni as a perceiving function works better the older I get. Fe has always been around, but it feels as hair trigger as always, like a stray cat it just never seems tamed. Even while docile, it is ready to scratch and bolt at any moment. There are days when I base my decision making around Fe-criteria, and there are days when I just can't understand why I'd bother so much.
Exactly!


Ni however, brought me lots of frustration when I was younger because I couldn't see where it was going, or what it was trying to say- now that I'm a little older with more experience and knowledge, I can make sense out of Ni. Its like trying to fill in a crossword puzzle when your vocabulary is lacking. Ni can tell you what sort of word it should be, but you need Ti / Fe to find the exact answer you need.

I would say that I like using Ni more than Fe. Since Fe tends to get me in trouble if I'm not careful, while Ni opens up my mind to alternatives.
Slight difference, I can enjoy Fe too. When in the *right* mood or something.


I have probably spent most of my life in a Ti - Ni loop, and yeah, what was said about Ni complementing Ti better makes sense to me. I think its why loops work the way they do (both introverted or both extroverted functions in your type pairing up). A loop is probably just a more extreme prolonged version of the functions complimenting each other, you can rely on that too much.

I have a lot of access to Ni, but being in the company of my actual Ni dom friends, its obvious that its not my leading function. My Fe is awkward.
Just wonder why Se in your case was left out in assisting Ti. o_O Got any thoughts on that?


To chip in on the Fe-Ni discussion, I find that when I apply my Ni and Fe together, it is always way off ball. I try to avoid doing this. I have more success applying Se-Fe. Ni-Fe makes my grasp air and place a wrong judgement on it combined with poor implementation.
Weird enough but I also see Se-Fe as a better pair. Fe + N is just totally something I do not "get". And probably part of it is what soppixo said about Se helping to change the perception of a situation.
 

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where is the Se in all that. Doesn't the Ti go with Se more naturally than with Ni or in your experience is that actually not so black and white? (Recall those debates about whether the auxiliary function is the same attitude as the dominant or not...)

How Ni for me can contribute to Ti understanding, well that is not usually quite done in a conscious way. It's more about somewhat feeling e.g. a concept in a vague abstract way. And sometimes eureka moments where it all clicks together. That usually happens after lots of data processing and is not under conscious control at all.

How conscious is Ni for you?

Also Fe, what actually gets in the way of liking to use it as a judgment function? I mean, how do you see it different from Ti judgments? Is it just simply that you have a hard time focusing on other people or is it common Fe "rules" that you clash with? (The "rules" thing though might be Ti-ish...)
I ignored Se since it wasn't part of the original question.
For me it fills two roles: it balances my Ti, pulling me into the current moment, which often is a good thing, and it acts like a data gathering function for my Ni database. The former is a large part of why I enjoy life: I totally recognize the utter frustration of Sherlock Holmes between cases; that's pretty much me when I forget to stay physically active. The latter is what makes me good at what I do.

I can't say Ni is conscious, but then again neither is any of the other functions: it's just a model of the way I make value judgments and how my trouble shooting process works. I can't help but thinking logically, and I don't feel well unless I get to do hands-on stuff, and I just get this image of how things work.


Fe isn't "rational" as it manifests in me. I also get almost childishly rebellious about "illogical" norms of behavior and clothing, for example - even if I can sit down and understand the concepts. As mentioned, Fe and Ni in combination makes me stupid. That's instant tin foil hat mode for me.
 

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Slight difference, I can enjoy Fe too. When in the *right* mood or something.
lol I enjoy Fe too (one reason why I went into MBTI / Jung, to be able to connect and understand others better- a throughly Fe aim). I just don't trust it.

Just wonder why Se in your case was left out in assisting Ti. o_O Got any thoughts on that?
It happens at a subconscious level for me, so I don't bother to elaborate on it....besides I've talked about it enough times on the ISTP forums haha. Ni takes me inwards away from reality, Se draws me outwards towards reality. It assists Ti by kicking it in the ass when it needs it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
For me it fills two roles: it balances my Ti, pulling me into the current moment, which often is a good thing, and it acts like a data gathering function for my Ni database. The former is a large part of why I enjoy life: I totally recognize the utter frustration of Sherlock Holmes between cases; that's pretty much me when I forget to stay physically active. The latter is what makes me good at what I do.
Interesting, I kind of work like this too. Any idea how this would be different for an ESTP?


I can't say Ni is conscious, but then again neither is any of the other functions: it's just a model of the way I make value judgments and how my trouble shooting process works. I can't help but thinking logically, and I don't feel well unless I get to do hands-on stuff, and I just get this image of how things work.
By "image" what did you mean? Could you describe it?


Fe isn't "rational" as it manifests in me. I also get almost childishly rebellious about "illogical" norms of behavior and clothing, for example - even if I can sit down and understand the concepts. As mentioned, Fe and Ni in combination makes me stupid. That's instant tin foil hat mode for me.
Haha I see. :)


lol I enjoy Fe too (one reason why I went into MBTI / Jung, to be able to connect and understand others better- a throughly Fe aim). I just don't trust it.
Would an ESTP trust Fe to some extent and how would that manifest?
 

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Interesting, I kind of work like this too. Any idea how this would be different for an ESTP?
You'd need to get an ESTP to answer that, but theoretically I guess that Ti would serve a similarly balancing effect on their Se, gradually making them aware of the benefits of thinking before they leap.

By "image" what did you mean? Could you describe it?
I don't know how well this translates, but if you think of a "black box", where you know what goes in and what comes out (or what you want to come out), when I see that box, I also "see" how it must work to achieve this. The net effect is that when I'm troubleshooting, I can do some pretty high precision guesswork as to what goes wrong.

Would an ESTP trust Fe to some extent and how would that manifest?
Fe would be in the same spot to an ESTP as Ni is to me, so I guess an ESTP would have an intuitive feeling for that sort of value judgments instead of the corresponding ISTP intuitive "database" of how things tend to work. Again, I haven't really had any need to analyze an ESTP, so I'm not sure how that would look in practice.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
You'd need to get an ESTP to answer that, but theoretically I guess that Ti would serve a similarly balancing effect on their Se, gradually making them aware of the benefits of thinking before they leap.
Hmm I relate that to Ni more on a general level, though risk analysing might be more in the realm of Ti.


I don't know how well this translates, but if you think of a "black box", where you know what goes in and what comes out (or what you want to come out), when I see that box, I also "see" how it must work to achieve this. The net effect is that when I'm troubleshooting, I can do some pretty high precision guesswork as to what goes wrong.
Oh, yeah, I just wondered if you had any actual mental image of such a system. Do you? :)


Fe would be in the same spot to an ESTP as Ni is to me, so I guess an ESTP would have an intuitive feeling for that sort of value judgments instead of the corresponding ISTP intuitive "database" of how things tend to work. Again, I haven't really had any need to analyze an ESTP, so I'm not sure how that would look in practice.
Yeah... I might have some feeling like that. Then other Fe topics just totally escape me at first =D
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
As perhaps pointed out, function order is not one of strength, but one of preference.

Thus: Being Ti dom and being a capable Ti user are two different pair of shoes.

Anyway, I'll save myself the work and leave it at that :tongue:
Yes, that was mentioned. You, so lazy!
 
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