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Discussion Starter #1
Security, certainty, faith.

Three of the underlying concepts that characterize the type 6. It can be said that we don't trust others easily. We're constantly questioning, wondering if there is another angle being played at, that could be played at.

However as much it might upset us when others are lying, cheating, manipulating the game, we lie. Everyone lies, though some lie more often than others. Compared to others, how often do you lie? What is your perception at least? Do you manipulate the game? Guilt-free when you do so or laden with remorse?

It has been said that the Holy Idea of the type 6 is faith in oneself. So, do we not trust others because we don't trust ourselves? Because we know we're not trustworthy? That would be projection, no?

What is your personal relationship with truth telling? Because it's always asked how we trust others, but what about ourselves?

We are a head type and not an image type, but still we're human and must play games, more or less.
 

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I do my best to dodge questions when I don't want to tell the truth. Avoiding the person, deflecting the questions, grunting noncommittally, and choosing my words carefully before I actually tell a lie.

And yes, except for avoidance, it's all deceitful. And I'm good at it. That, I think, is part of my distrust-- not that other people lie, but fear that I might not catch them.

I always feel guilty when I do it, hence that long list of technicalities I use to assuage my conscience.
 

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I personally hate to lie, ever! That said, if I really feel it would go against my best interests not to lie; then I can be extremely convincing, but I would really have to be backed into such a corner, where no other reasonable alternatives existed.
 

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if it's for a good reason. if someone i care about, or just a regular person in general, is being treated unfairly and it's being passed over because the dynamics of the situation are "accepted" (but still not "right"), i have no problem exerting whatever i am able onto that particular situation--feverishly, in fact... which brings me to another point, or aspect of this.

i have a hard time sticking up for myself, or, to stay on topic, lying for myself. this doesn't mean that i don't do it--i do, but i usually won't even realize that what i've said is an altered form of the truth (usually, because it is so tied to feeling, it's easy for me to lie to myself, and through that, to unknowingly lie to others).

but i think the "feverishly" sticking up for another is really a compensation for my inability to stick up for myself. guilt, and a feeling of 'you will be attacked' just comes to the surface, and i have a hard time managing the reaction itself--from not enough and kind of a pushover, to vehement with the other person staring at their feet (cringe).

so when it comes to consciously lying for myself, i'd rather just have everyone think i'm a terrible person for whatever it is that i've done, and feel a sort of "redemption" from that in itself (than to feel disgusted with myself).
 

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@saintless

I lie to others and I lie to myself, sometimes without even knowing that I do (the latter one mostly true when it comes to denial) and I suffer guilt, self criticism and it feels horrible to lie, very anxiety provoking because of the potential negative future consequences.

I mostly lie only when I'm backed into a corner by expectations. It is better to give a lighter version of the truth, to omit details (white lie) or to just flat out lie and be as convincing as possible...then to admit the horrid truth to someone who has expectations of me being a better person then I actually am ( there is a very real possibility of these expectations being my own, my superego's, and my EGO is just managing the fallout between what my ID wants and what my SUPEREGO expects).

Superego ===> EGO (oh shit!) <=== ID

Today's example:

Superego and external expectations: - Go to the meeting about how the local christian NGO will discuss helping the local elderly and mentally retarded children with their EU funded program and become part of that helping out and making friends with the young people involved. It is important to give back to the community, you must be a good social person and help others.

ID (the ugly truth): - Fuck that shit! BORING! I don't care about the elderly, seriously I do not want to watch them waste away and die again, feeling guilty and unable to do anything about it! What a waste of time! The kids were fun thou, but still I have to admit that it was boring, unsatisfying and ultimately I did not really care. All of it just made me miserable and there was nothing rewarding about it. I didn't even understand why all those girls cried out of happiness when everyone thanked us....now if this were about Heterogeneous Computing, some kind of thing where actual healthy people would benefit from teaching and knowledge or something else interesting, I'd want to go. Not like this, I have no urge to do this! How can I connect with others when doing something I don't really want to!?

EGO response to the invite: Sorry I have no time now, this was too sudden and I wasn't prepared. Pls tell me sooner next time. :( I'm really sorry! (feeling like a miserable MONSTER inside).

The truth is that I don't really give a damn and I feel really bad about it....makes me feel kind of sick inside because I should care...I just care about other non humanitarian stuff...more. What am I supposed to say? The truth!? PEOPLE CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH! :( NOT EVEN I CAN!...and I'm just being honest with myself.

In this scenario I almost lied to myself trying to rationalize my fear of what others would think and how much I'd have to lie to cover stuff up if I went stating internally that it isn't a big loss...however this stuff is a very big problem :(....I do not get anything out of helping others and thus I'd avoid it if possible, however my superego denies this and I react to the generated guilt by helping out to a certain extent where my ID overrules the whole thing and considers that enough is enough.

I'd actually be interested in a type 2's understanding of this, think I'll ask them (ok..odd the type 2 forums haven't moved much since last time I was there)
 

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I do my best to dodge questions when I don't want to tell the truth. Avoiding the person, deflecting the questions, grunting noncommittally, and choosing my words carefully before I actually tell a lie.

And yes, except for avoidance, it's all deceitful. And I'm good at it. That, I think, is part of my distrust-- not that other people lie, but fear that I might not catch them.

I always feel guilty when I do it, hence that long list of technicalities I use to assuage my conscience.
This is me too. I used to lie a ton as a kid (felt horribly guilty about it, but still did it), but I found out that it always came around to bite me. So now I almost never lie -- I just avoid telling the truth at all costs. I do everything you just listed there. I suppose I'm doing the same thing in misleading other people, but just removing myself from responsibility for my dishonesty. Framed in that light, it sounds pretty bad. And it probably is. But it's something I'll forever struggle with.
 

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I don't lie that often because I don't like it first of all, but when situation is dire and someone is going to get hurt by truth so I just manipulate it a bit but later when situation seems under control I do tell them the truth too :wink:.
 
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Discussion Starter #8
I guess the habitual lying and manipulation of the truth is all me.

It's something I take pride in though while also despising myself for it.
 

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I give a bit of sugar pill lies. Though I usually mean it quite genuinely and just like to bring comfort. I do think sometimes it is nice to just bring about warm talk and gestures. It just feels good.

Sometimes in the medical world to save someone 20 grand or so I might bend the truth a bit. I do so with the utmost attention to detail, and strict observance as to what rules I can follow. Sometimes it's tricky.

I also lie about my life. I don't do it as much but I still kind of do it at work. I deal with some more conservative types and I mean not in terms of political affiliation as much as culture and generational difference. Though if it helps me perform my job better. I don't outright lie but if asked directly I will. Like I say I live alone to some because there might be a catholic or whatnot who will resist our working relationship. I try for that to be the goal and to leave myself out of it and keep it short and sweet.
 

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I hate to lie, and I try not to do it whenever possible. If it is a personal question that will get me shunned by society in a negative way, I will avoid the question, or answer it in a way that might be considered deceitful. (like when Dumbledore told harry what he saw in the Mirror was a pair of socks...) but if the person cannot be deterred or distracted, I will be honest. The rare moments that I lie, it is about the dumbest stuff. and afterwards, I think to myself, "why did I lie about that?" like my dad asked me how much student loan debt I had. I shave 2k dollars off the total... how retarded. I mean, really?!?!?
 

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I have to say I agree with @FreeBeer about the whole Ego thing and lying. Technically I hold honesty as an ideal, but sometimes I get morally lazy and tell untruths (not lies...right?) to cover up my own selfish desires. Mostly they're excuses and mostly I use them to save face. The classic "sorry, can't make it to that party because I don't feel well :(" when really I just want to stay home. Being direct and communicating what's actually going on makes me feel exposed and uncomfortable. Some honest person I am!

And to be fair, I'm terrible at lying. Who knows, if I were better at it I might find it more fun. Like, diabolically fun :tongue:
 
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I love brutal honesty and I try to be honest at all times. I appreciate "real-ness".
 

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In my teen years I lied constantly, for personal gain and for fun. I always, always felt bad about it but enjoyed that feeling. As I turned 20 I changed quite a bit and truth telling at all costs became a sort of absolution for me. I lost friends, had a girlfriend break up with me and lost opportunities all due to this. Yet I felt nothing could touch me, I was innocent. Then some incidents happened which showed me that reality does not care about guilt or innocence and to be innocent is no more protection from harm than guilt invites it. For a while I had believed in divine retribution, karma and a sense of universal justice, despite aligning myself spiritually as an agnostic. These concepts became irrelevant very quickly and now I'm at a stage in life where I am just questioning what is relativistically true, which is difficult for both a Loyalist and INFP since core values are so integral to both types. Sometimes I wonder if it is better to lie about some things but I still feel that when it comes to forging a bond with someone, truth is of the absolute importance and if it can't be maintained the bond is weakened.
 

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I wouldn't say that I lie. It's more like leaving out certain facts, distorting or misinterpreting the truth to other people or going into some (minor) tangent in order for them to get either distracted or more focused on a different aspect of the truth or reality. I have lied however to co-workers when it came to my relationship with my family. It scared me how well I did it... even creating stories based on my new "truth". Perhaps it's so easy cause I can make myself believe it for a moment in order to make it more believable.
 
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