[Enneagram Type 4] Type 4: Confessions, Vents, Rants - Page 309

Type 4: Confessions, Vents, Rants

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This is a discussion on Type 4: Confessions, Vents, Rants within the Type 4 Forum - The Individualist forums, part of the Heart Triad - Types 2,3,4 category; Originally Posted by LittleDreamer Thanks! I might do the same. Nothing wrong with being a four, it has its gifts ...

  1. #3081
    Type 7w6

    Quote Originally Posted by LittleDreamer View Post
    Thanks! I might do the same. Nothing wrong with being a four, it has its gifts just like any other type. But it has only recently made me feel kinda unhealthy and I want to back away from that. It's like uncovering stuff about myself that really hurts but I know that it is true. I need to step away from it a bit and allow myself the chance to change and grow.
    That's probably a good idea. I think Type 4's can be too hard on themselves, and the Type 4 descriptions tend to be more of the same. We already tend to feel defective and look at what is missing. I found that thinking I was a Type 7, invited me to approach some of my good qualities (not saying this crazy @ss approach is healthy, or would work for everyone, ha ha). But, I think the more a Type 4 gets into the world (volunteering, having fun, practice *doing*; for me, it was becoming a mom), the more we get into the moment (that has really helped me get even healthier).

    I have recently realized I might be a Type 4, and all of this self-focus has (surprisingly, to me) seemed to drag me back down. I relate an awful lot to the negative aspects of Type 4, and that only plays on my sense of shame and defect even further. I don't know that ignoring a problem is the answer, but I do think there is something to taking it a step at a time, in bits and pieces.

    What I guess I'm trying to say, is I don't think the road to health for a Type 4 will ever be through the grime and muck (at least not for me). The more you can focus on what is good about you, and be present in the moment, the more things will fall into place (again, speaking from personal experience, and not a factual place).

    I wish you nothing but good health, happiness, and the best in life. You completely deserve it.

  2. #3082
    Type 7w6

    So, this might have already been mentioned, but something else to remember, is that Type 4's of different tritypes can look markedly different as well. Whether my own tritype is lead with the 4 or the 7 (..still deciding...but no longer open to input..) this tritype is described quite differently than say, a 468 tritype.

    479 "The Gentle Spirit"

    "And, the 479s are known for their sunny dispositions and gentle nature."
    source: Articles — Katherine Fauvre Enneagram Consulting

    – seek meaning
    – want harmony, peace and tranquility

    – inspire people toward happiness through expressing their creativity in a peaceful non-intrusive way
    – identify what is truly meaningful in life and help people transform negative feelings into something positive

    – a true dreamer
    – positive
    – ethereal
    – light energy
    – playful
    – meaningful
    – idealistic
    – upbeat
    – gentle, loving
    – calm
    – see beauty
    – lyrical
    – happy
    – imaginative
    – elusive
    – a touch of sadness
    – intense
    – tranquil
    – sensitive
    – very creative
    – somewhat shy
    – conflict avoidant
    – accepting
    – peaceful
    – original
    – laid-back
    – witty
    – whimsical
    – insatiable
    – doubtful
    – congenial

    Blind spot:
    – attraction to magical thinking and missed opportunities to speak their truth -> glossing over negative feelings in favour of something more comfortable/positive
    – become trapped in magical thinking -> not speaking higher truth or act in accordance with your true feelings

    – being rejected
    – conflict
    – feeling valueless
    source: https://waysofwisdom.wordpress.com/2...ypes-with-a-4/

    All of the 79 combinations are somewhat positive. The 279 is focused on being pleasant. The 379 the most positive. The 479 Is positive outwardly but doesn't always feel it. [...]

    479 - This is the sort of sprite or fairy like tritype. There is a need to remain positive while still searching for meaning. The blindspot is that there is an attraction to magical thinking and missed opportunities to speak their truth so they find themselves glossing over negative feeling states in favor of something more comfortable or positive. When 4 is in charge there's a tendency to not see all the ways in which depression or sadness is evaded through this magical thinking process.

    the life mission is that this is the true healer archetype. They are often found doing bodywork or other healing practices as these are the 3 types that have a desire to transform. They like to inspire people toward happiness through expressing their creativity in a peaceful non-intrusive way.

    She said this is the most lyrical type, a sort of ethereal archetype (so is the 459 but it is a more withdrawn ethereal quality, almost wispy and ghost like) whereas the energy here is lighter and more impish or I think when it's a male energy you get a strong trickster archetype (like dfgray). Playful yet meaningful. Very idealistic (although not quite as idealistic as the 471) but still concerned with maintaining positivity and feelings of being up. I think Regina Spektor is an example of this archetype with 4 in charge.
    source: Tritype archetypes and variant descriptions

    479 is one of the most optimistic tritypes. Since both 4 and 9 choose to ignore their core, the only emotion that 479 acknowledges is anxiety, and they combat it by always looking to the better possibilities offered by the future. The 479 seeks to know themselves as deeply as possible, and also extend this compassion to those around them, finding joy and comfort in helping people to turn their negative feelings into positive empowerment. 479s must be careful not to fall too deeply into their own idealistic thinking otherwise they are likely to fail to honor their own feelings and speak their own truth when necessary.
    source: http://istj-hedonist.tumblr.com/post...ne-of-the-most

    Just to establish, that there are all sorts of Type 4's out there - - & depending on wing, tritype, and dominant instincts, they can (to some degree) want to stay "up" (or avoid depression/melancholy), and have a draw towards positivity. :)
    Last edited by o0india0o; 03-31-2017 at 12:32 PM.

  3. #3083

    Quote Originally Posted by o0india0o View Post
    So, this might have already been mentioned, but something else to remember, is that Type 4's of different tritypes can look markedly different as well. Whether my own tritype is lead with the 4 or the 7 (..still deciding...but no longer open to input..) this tritype is described quite differently than say, a 468 tritype.

    479 "The Gentle Spirit"

    source: Articles — Katherine Fauvre Enneagram Consulting

    source: https://waysofwisdom.wordpress.com/2...ypes-with-a-4/

    source: Tritype archetypes and variant descriptions

    source: 479 The Gentle Spirit 479 is one of the most... - MBTI / Enneagram blog

    Just to establish, that there are all sorts of Type 4's out there - - & depending on wing, tritype, and dominant instincts, they can (to some degree) want to stay "up" (or avoid depression/melancholy), and have a draw towards positivity. :)
    Yes, I agree with you. I'm a 451, and having two Competency Triad fixes (5 + 1) in my tritype, I think I'm a little more objective and emotionally cooler than other 4s, or rather, from how 4s are portrayed in descriptions. As it says here below, and I have been considered Type 5 by a few people.

    out of 458/459/451 I'd guess that both 459 and 451 would seem more 5-like (or, more accurately, be more likely to be mis-typed as 5) than 458.

    451 is the most 5ish 4. Rational and scientific.

    451 - knowledgeable and discerning 4. Most intellectual 4, especially if social subtyle of with a 5 wing. Likes to teach.
    Using that same logic, it isn't hard to imagine a 4 who has two Positive Triad fixes (7 + 9) would make an overall more positive, upbeat 4 (along with the extroverted component of 3-wing). I'm sorry I never followed up with you. I actually went back and read through your posts on the thread, and I would say you know yourself well in terms of type. In other words, I know you're not open to discussing type, but I think you're on the right path with the two types you're considering!

    I think what can really help is understanding the Holy Ideas. That's what made it all make sense to me. So, even though, I was considering Types 4 and 5, Holy Origin (Type 4 Holy Idea) resonated with me so much more than Holy Omniscience (Type 5 Holy Idea). I even came to that truth of Holy Origin on my own before I knew of the Enneagram, so it was like finding the "mirroring" for myself that 4s seek in a way. I find the importance of the Holy Ideas to be overlooked too often in finding one's type.

    I also wanted you to see this video I came across recently where Katherine Fauvre discusses the 479 tritype, starting at 2:27:20.

    o0india0o and Hermetica thanked this post.

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  5. #3084
    Type 4w5

    Quote Originally Posted by Daeva View Post
    How is adjusting oneself to a situation not authentic?

    The key here is how we give meaning to our lives. Nothing about that Ni description implies inauthenticity. You saying that it does is your own bias.
    Bias? How can it be a bias when it's been substantiated by multiple sources? It baffles me that you don't seem to acknowledge the link between Ni and persona when Jung himself wrote about persona in great detail, even acknowledging his own "dual personality".

    Personality Growth - Introverted Intuition

    Ni users are also good at creating a persona.
    Dictionary.com - Persona

    persona (noun)

    • (in the psychology of C. G. Jung) the mask or façade presented to satisfy the demands of the situation or the environment and not representing the inner personality of the individual; the public personality (contrasted with anima ).

    Example of a Fi-dom user applying a subjective judgment on a Ni-dom user:
    Robert Smith (INFP 4): I have never liked Morrissey, and I still don't. I think it's hilarious, actually, what things I've heard about him, what he's really like, and his public persona is so different. He's such an actor.
    Introduction to Jungian Psychotherapy: The Therapeutic Relationship

    Jung, though, did not speak of a "real" or "true" self opposed to a "false self," a distinction which is relevant to this discussion. But he did speak of a persona, which means how one presents one's self to the external world. The persona is a necessary adaptation to society's regulations and its more subtle expectations, and also an expression of one's self. Jung felt that it tended to be inauthentic, not necessarily in tune with one's inner, real self. In this sense, the persona can be compliant with perceived demands of the world, to the detriment of one's true being.
    Jung's acknowledgement of dual personalities in himself and other Ni users:

    Jung in Contexts: A Reader

    Furthermore, as a child Jung sensed that he was in fact two different persons, called 'Personality No. 1' (the schoolchild growing up in Klein-Huningen near Basle) and 'Personality No. 2' (a timeless, eternal counterpart, his own 'Other'). According to MDR, Jung came to believe that Nietzsche, like him, possessed a dual personality which came into the open when he wrote Zarathustra. In his autobiography, Jung wrote that it was when he read Zarathustra while a student that he came to see how his personality 'number two' corresponded to Nietzsche's 'number two' -- i.e. Zarathustra -- which in turn corresponded to Goethe's 'number two' -- i.e. Faust.
    Quote Originally Posted by Daeva View Post
    What I have seen so far is an ignorance of what the core of type 4 is.
    So have I... hence why I made that post addressing that ignorance a few pages ago. I don't usually vent my frustrations. It only occurs when people are clearly wrong and are applying a limited understanding of enneagram and advertising it across the board as general consensus without considering the major differences that cognitive function stackings and instinctual stackings play on enneagram type. I'm not done with pointing out those differences, but are you already starting to get the general idea of how much Fi counteracts Ni (persona)? I will cover more of these differences below.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daeva View Post
    All this talk about JCF and health levels is distracting and inaccurate if people can't even get the basics straight.
    Hmm. It helped @o0india0o have a fuller understanding of the type instead of the limited one that keeps being presented as "truth" across all the MBTI types so I don't see how that's wrong? Why rain on someone elses' parade? Why criticize me for bringing something up if it's helping other members?

    "people can't even get the basics straight" -- if you mean your "reactive type is rejection of that which is false and untrue" statement, that is not the "basics". Continue reading through the rest of this post and you'll learn that:

    Authenticity = Fi-dom primary concern
    Enneagram 4 ≠ Authenticity

    Quote Originally Posted by Animal View Post
    You are making a typist generalization here. You're tired of Fi doms doing X. The irony is you are making a generalization about Fi doms while saying you're tired of them making generalizations. Please stop; it is typism.
    Saying Fi is based on inner, subjective values/feelings isn't typism. It's widely accepted by typology experts on cognitive function websites and published in books as fact.

    Personality Hacker - INFP vs INFJ: 5 Surprising Differences to Tell Them Apart

    For an INFJ, this dominant process is technically called Introverted Intuition, but we've nicknamed it "Perspectives."

    Perspectives is a learning function (technically called a "perceiving function"), and works by watching one's own mind form patterns. After years of use, eventually Perspectives begins to see the 'pattern of the patterns' and understands that what is happening inside of themselves cognitively is also happening for other people.

    INFPs, on the other hand, lead with a process called Introverted Feeling, which we call "Authenticity."

    Authenticity is a decision-making function (technically called a "judging function"), and works by being deeply in touch with how one is emotionally impacted by events. Decisions are made by "checking in" to ensure that they are in alignment with one's values and identity. There is a saying that the more personal something is the more universal it is. Over time Authenticity understands that they aren't alone in their feelings. They are simply more aware of them than other types.

    Already, there's a major difference in how these two types see the world.
    Gifts Differing: Understanding Personality Type

    Introverted Feeling

    • Is determined chiefly by the subjective factor and serves as a guide to the emotional acceptance or rejection of various aspects of life.
    • Adapts the objective situation to the individual by the simple process of excluding or ignoring the unacceptable.
    ^ i.e. "this is me" vs "this is not me", "this is authentic" vs "this is not authentic", "I can relate to this" vs "I can't relate to this"

    e.g. "That can't be 4 because I can't relate to it" = subjective judgment, not objective fact

    Psychology Junkie - How You Use Introverted Feeling Based On Its Location in Your Function Stack

    Introverted feelers are known for their unflinching values, their authenticity, and their genuine compassion. Introverted feeling types are varied and have a wide range of skills.


    INFPs and ISFPs are supremely concerned with maintaining emotional integrity and inner harmony. They believe in living with purpose, helping others, and staying true to themselves. When they make a decision, the first thing they consider is their values – "Does this align with what I feel is right? How will this affect others? How will this impact me? How does this experience broaden my own personal understanding?"
    The Archive for Research in Archetypal Symbolism - Introverted Feeling

    The introverted feeling type is determined principally by the subjective factor. It differs quite as essentially from extraverted feeling as introverted from extraverted thinking. It is extremely difficult to give an intellectual account of the introverted feeling process, or even an approximate description of it, although the peculiar nature of this kind of feeling is very noticeable once one has become aware of it.The depth of this feeling can only be guessed, it can never be clearly grasped. It makes people silent and difficult of access; it shrinks back like a violet from the brute nature of the object in order to fill the depths of the subject. It comes out with negative judgments or assumes an air of profound indifference as a means of defence.

    Guided by Subject Feeling:

    The introverted feeling type neither shine nor reveal themselves. As they are mainly guided by their subjective feelings, their true motives generally remain hidden. Their outward demeanour is harmonious, inconspicuous, giving an impression of pleasing repose, or of sympathetic response.

    Feeling Seldom Appears on the Surface:

    Introverted feeling is conditioned subjectively and is only secondarily concerned with the object. It seldom appears on the surface and is generally misunderstood. It is a feeling which seems to devalue the object, and it therefore manifests itself for the most part negatively.

    The Aim is to Subordinate The Object:

    The existence of positive feeling can be inferred only indirectly. The aim of introverted feeling is not to adjust itself to the object, but to subordinate it in an unconscious effort to realize the underlying images. It is continually seeking an image which has no existence in reality, but which it has seen in a vision. It glides unheedingly over all objects that do not fit in with its aim. It strives after inner intensity, for which the objects serve at most as a stimulus.

    ... I think you get the point. The tl;dr of all those examples is:

    Authenticity = Fi-dom primary concern

    Therefore, through simple mathematical equation:

    Enneagram 4 ≠ Authenticity

    which is what I have been stating, continuously, since my post from a few pages ago. Not typist; not type generalizations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Animal View Post
    You are reading into her posts and insulting her when she did not actually take a jab on your intelligence; she simply said you were entitled to your own opinion.
    Umm... Maybe you missed the part where she said "Logic is not called for here as you are right" suggesting that my statements were somehow not logical. My examples above prove that they are based in fact and are not part of some "type bias" that I have.

    Quote Originally Posted by Animal View Post
    For instance you asked if @Daeva was questioning YOUR typing, when he did nothing of the sort. He stated his opinion on what 4 is, and you are doing that too, which is fine. But why project negative intent on him?
    He stated that 4 is the "rejection that which is false and untrue" (his words), but like the examples I have suggested above... it's not. It's the Fi users' subjective perception of Enneagram 4 (i.e. "that's authentic" vs "that's inauthentic"). I tried telling him that, and he picked apart my personal experience as a 4 not being aligned with "authenticity" (again, Fi values)-- which, for the hundredth time, has nothing to do with 4.

    Quote Originally Posted by Animal View Post
    Also, if so many users supposedly agree with you, how is your opinion unpopular?
    Where have I said "so many"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Animal View Post
    You consider it grasping at straws, yet you are using Fi, Ni and Ne to justify reasons why 4s will not act like 4s are described in books. It's fine to debate about how Ni and Fi 4s express differently, but I find it odd that someone else's personal take on how to type people, which is different from yours, is described as 'grasping at straws' and 'my heart bleeds for you.'
    It is grasping for straws. Last time I checked PerC was about MBTI, Enneagram, Socionics, and Cognitive Functions typology. Not "Guess people by how they smile" typology which, by the way, is not widely acknowledged nor substantiated by the bigwigs aka "the experts". Cognitive functions (Fi, Ni, Ne, etc) are, however, acknowledged by PerC, Carl Jung, and several other official sources so I don't see how I'm the one who's grasping?

    Quote Originally Posted by Animal View Post
    Nobody actually questioned your type. They questioned the lens through which you view 4 as a concept. Someone can be a 4, and still be off base about the theory or what makes a 4 a 4. Just like you say, Fi dom 4s claim 4 is a certain way but it is clouded by Fi, so you'd rather get down to the principle of what 4 actually is, without bias. Well, you will have biases too, based on functions, tritype etc; so the discussion of what 4 is and how you may be presenting it in a way that another user thinks is inaccurate to the meaning of 4, does not mean he is claiming you are not a 4. So it is not type bullying; it is an attempt to clarify the underlying root meaning of 4.
    See my answer above, which I'll quote again:

    He stated that 4 was the "rejection of that which is false and untrue" (his words), but like the examples I have suggested above... it's not. It's the Fi users' subjective perception of Enneagram 4 (i.e. "that's authentic" vs "that's inauthentic"). I tried telling him that, and he picked apart my personal experience as a 4 not being aligned with "authenticity" (again, those are Fi values) -- which, for the hundredth time, has nothing to do with 4.
    Since none of this seems to be sinking in, how about I use a real life famous person as an example of an INFJ 4 to prove that authenticity is not a focus for INFJ 4s? Let's see... who could I use that's widely considered INFJ 4 by most people here despite the fact that he has a public persona which Jung defined as inauthentic. Oh, wait... Marilyn Manson!

    2007/05/18 - Alejandro Jodorowsky interviews Marilyn Manson

    Alejandro Jodorowsky: When you are alone... what happens? Because you are two people. There is Manson the symbol and a human being as well. There is a famous Manson and a private Manson. How does the private Manson live?

    Marilyn Manson: When I made this record, I realized a lot of things. Apart from a very close circle of friends, few people know my true self, and it's normal, I never put it into my music... this record is me. Listen to the first songs, it starts with these words: "6am, Christmas morning", and effectively I wrote it on the Christmas morning and sang it that day. I decided that the private Manson would be at the centre of this record.
    That interview is dated 2007. Manson released his first album in 1994. So he hadn't put his true self into his music for nearly 13 years? Hey wait, isn't Manson's tritype 468 "The Truth Teller"?

    There is a schism between Brian Warner, the socially awkward and shy guy, and Marilyn Manson, the outrageous and menacing public persona.

    Brian Warner: People don't expect someone like me to be awkward and shy. I know it doesn't seem that way on stage. When I'm talking to people off-stage, I'm talking to people I know, but when I'm on stage, I'm singing to people who I have never met before. I hide my fears with sarcasm.
    I like this quote! I know that I, too, have a defensive sarcasm which I'm sure others here have already seen from my previous posts in this thread.

    Compare the above quote to Bowie who I type as INFJ 4w3 so/sx, but for some reason no one can objectively see as 4 because apparently the misguided notion is that "persona = fake = can't be enneagram 4 because doesn't fit with Fi values". Well... how about, for a change, we consider the objective perspective of what a Ni-dom 4 would value? Or what a Ne-dom 4 would value? How come we're never asking those questions on this Enneagram 4 forum and just relaying all information of 4 to Fi? That is what I am trying to get to the bottom of and address in my posts.

    David Bowie: I think my problem used to be that I was always shy and fairly awkward in social situations. All through my youth, I would use bravado and device – costume and flamboyant behavior – in a desperate attempt to not be iced out of everything.

    Interviewer: In other words, so you didn't have to be you?

    David Bowie: Exactly.
    Shame of social exclusion ^

    Authenticity = Fi-dom primary concern
    Enneagram 4 ≠ Authenticity

    2002/06/29 - David Bowie Interview

    Iman has also helped David cope with a lifelong battle with depression, an illness which has blighted the lives of some of his closest family.

    He says quietly: "The emphasis on instability which has dogged my life and my own personal feelings of instability make me focus more than the average on looking for some sense in all this."

    "I'd love to believe in something. But I can't. I won't. Really, we're just animals. Very few people can say: 'I love humankind.' You have a possibility of loving your immediate family and maybe widen that to a few friends, but that's it. I certainly had a personality crisis because of the catastrophe of drugs addiction and its aftermath."

    "I used to slip easily into deep, deep depressions, really manically depressed. I'd then swing the other way and become incredibly euphoric. I wasn't in control of it at all."

    "I often get pangs of isolation and all that, particularly in the very early morning, but it doesn't haunt me as such any more."

    Until he met Iman he suffered from terrible shyness from childhood. "I was a kid that loved being in my room reading books and entertaining ideas," he recalls. "I lived a lot in my imagination. It was a real effort to become a social animal."

    "That's why I loved drugs so much. On drugs, once you started talking you never stopped - whether there was anybody with you or not! And you'd wake up with a very sore jaw."
    That's... weird. If Bowie is such a 3, why did he enjoy staying cooped up in his bedroom, engaging himself in solitary activities? Why wasn't he out with other boys his age socializing and performing for positive attention?

    Social/Sexual Four

    This is overall the "lightest" type Four when it comes to social interaction. They are likely to utilize charm and humor. This type is more scattered and can be down right disorganized. They can drift through life always feeling like an outsider, yet they usually have friends. They can alternate from being the life of the party to withdrawing. Intimates will know of their insecurities and dark moody side while acquaintances will see a softer, friendlier side. This subtype's energy is geared towards people, but they never feel as though they really fit in.
    Dissecting Marilyn Manson

    So where next for Marilyn Manson in this new millennium? Marilyn himself hinted at a new persona, his previous identities strewn behind him like skins shed by a luridly sinister snake. Gone was the drug-crazed childhood villain of Portrait of an American Family; gone the Nietzschean fallen angel of Antichrist Superstar; gone the androgynous space-age decadent of Mechanical Animals. 'I reinvent myself before I can get bored of myself,' he observed in a 1998 interview. 'Anyone who remains static is not only unimaginative but is being safe. The real safe thing for me would be to make another album like Antichrist Superstar, look the same way I looked, and say the same things in interviews. But I've grown tired of that. There's lots more to explore.'
    "Reinvent myself"? Why would a 4 need to reinvent themselves if they're already being their true, authentic selves? Could it be that authenticity (Fi) and being true to oneself (Fi) is not at all synonymous with being Enneagram 4? Mind = blown.

    ^ Nice to know that Bowie had that sarcasm as well.

    In case the pattern/connection still hasn't clicked:

    ^ By the way, how silly would this picture look if, instead of the Bowie record, Robert was cradling a Ricky Martin or Madonna record in his arms.

    Quote Originally Posted by Animal View Post
    Then you return with these provocative and inflammatory comments. The comments about Fi are also inflammatory.

    Please take note of the forum rules.

    If this is the case , why the rude tone toward others? I'd imagine someone who has come a long way might not make typist remarks and provocative accusations to other posters. Even if you believe the other posters are rude, awful, insulting, ignorant, or whatever; you can still control your own actions.
    Again, not typist remarks. See above for the mountain of examples from several sources that cite the exact same thing I said in my other posts. "Provocative, inflammatory" language? What about hundreds of examples spanning across the entire forum of repetitive abuse of the caps lock button being used in arguments which most users would consider on par with being shouted at... isn't that also something that would be guilty of "provoking/inciting anger in others"?

    Article: Netiquette - How Capital Letters Became Internet Code for Yelling

    Just saying... The thing about Ni is that it picks up on behavioral patterns in others that people aren't yet conscious of themselves.

    Sorry to all the others here who just came in to vent about things unrelated to this. Sorry for speaking out against the hivemind, I just felt that it was important to myself and other 4 types so it needed to be said.


    And yes to anyone who's wondering, this did take forever to type up, lol. I guess that's bound to happen when you're an INxJ type with both a 5 wing and a 5-fix.

  6. #3085

    Just reading some of the stuff about "persona" though, I think everyone has a persona or a mask...even Fi 4s.
    Dragheart Luard, Gorgon and Philathea thanked this post.

  7. #3086

    I feel like I have quite a few...vents at this point haha

    I think I have always had a resistance to change...I am trying to understand it better. Because my so-called "unattractive qualities" decrease anyway depending on how far I am in growth, but when someone tells me there's something wrong with me, I can get very defensive. It also plays right into my feeling of being very unlovable and not valuable at all. I think that if they cannot love me or care about me at my worst, they don't really. I have lost quite a few friends because of this, and those losses are always hard too, I get quite depressed. I guess in my mind, changing for someone else, or "to be a better person" or to "have a better relationship" or " to be more effective" invariably tells me there's something wrong with who I really am. Again those qualities can diminish over time...so I don't know why I hold on to them so hard. It feels like a relationship based on adjusting yourself in that way wouldn't be meaningful to me, or not as deep and as close as I would like it to be...as I said "if they don't like me at my worst, they don't really."

    I have been thinking more about dreams. We were watching this one video in class about a guy who acted out his dreams. He was very sweet and nice and mild-mannered while awake, he always had a smile on his face. But apparently he would get violent when acting out his dreams. For enneagram type, I thought of 9 first, he seemed very much like an SP 9. And then I wondered if there really would be that much of a gap between who I present myself to be (persona) and parts of me I suppress (shadow) and I didn't feel like that would be the case with me. I don't think I have had any violent dreams though. People have killed themselves, or I have been killed, but I have never dreamed about hurting someone else. Although I know I do (or can) have anger.
    Last edited by Rose for a Heart; 03-31-2017 at 09:19 PM.
    mistakenforstranger thanked this post.

  8. #3087
    Type 4w5

    Quote Originally Posted by Hermetica View Post
    Authenticity = Fi-dom primary concern
    Enneagram 4 ≠ Authenticity
    Sorry, I found your post TL;DR fully, though I skimmed through the text.

    The connection between authenticity and E4 is not some sort of narcissistic, Fi-dom propaganda. No matter one’s personal views or interpretation of Enneagram and JCF connection, incontestably, the motif of authenticity is inextricably linked with E4. I find anecdotal tidbits and celebrity typing to be neither convincingly clarifying nor constructive, and I prefer to source established literature.

    Merriam Webster:

    Authentic: true to one's own personality, spirit, or character
    Riso & Hudson: Wisdom of the Enneagram

    E4 Superego Message: “You are good or okay if you are true to yourself.”
    Riso & Hudson: Personality Type

    Healthy Fours need to express what they feel so they can know what their intuitions are telling them about themselves. They are the most personal of the personality types, revealing themselves to others with directness and authenticity. They do not put on masks, hiding their doubts and weaknesses, nor do they deceive themselves about their feelings and impulses no matter how unseemly or unflattering these are. Healthy Fours willingly reveal their flaws and irrationalities to others, since they feel that these things are not merely incidental to who they are, but reflect their personal truth. It would be dishonest to communicate themselves to others if they did not communicate the whole of themselves, the bad along with the good, doubts along with certainties. There is something very human about this: theirs is a genuineness and depth of feeling, a willingness to be touched, even at the expense of pain, if that is the authentic thing to do.
    Ichazo's Enneagrams:

    4. Ego-Melan
    Fixation: Melancholy
    Trap: Authenticity
    Idea: Holy Origin
    Passion: Envy
    Virtue: Equanimity

    (The traps lead back to an ego-centric and limited take on reality. As such, they lead back to the type's fixation.)
    Maitri: The Spiritual Dimensions of the Enneagram

    Fours want to be seen as unique, original, and authentic, since they lack this sense of identity with Being.

    They seem to suffer more than others, and their longing for authenticity makes them controlling of themselves and of others.

    The drive, then, for Fours is to connect, to make contact with something authentic both in themselves and others.

    From another angle, the achievement and goal orientation of Three plus the sense of isolation and lack of connection of Five result in the striving of Four for reconnection with an authentic inner source.
    Chestnut: The Complete Enneagram

    The Four archetype also represents the archetype of the tragic artist who suffers in the service of artistic self-expression. It suggests an idealistic vision of the value of emotions, especially the way in which authentic emotions are usefully expressed through art in a mode that inspires, moves, and unites people.

    Fours may raise the issue of authentic emotions that others would often rather not deal with.
    Relatively unafraid of intense feelings, Fours value the expression of authentic emotion and can support others with great care, respect, and sensitivity when they are experiencing painful emotions.

    In many ways, Type Fours are the most comfortable of all the types with the experience of emotions. They value connections with others based on authentic feelings.

    Fundamentally, Fours focus on thinking about and expressing what they are feeling. Fours also focus on what others may be thinking or feeling about them, and whether or not they are achieving authentic connections with the people around them.

    Fours value emotional intensity and authenticity, they tend to feel emotions deeply, and they find more comfort in feelings like melancholy or sadness than most other types do. According to the Four perspective, emotions point to the inherent depth and truth of your experience of yourself, and so authentic emotions shouldn’t be denied, as they reflect what is special and uniquely you.
    Palmer (co-founder): Enneagram World Wide

    Romantics are idealistic, deeply feeling, empathetic and authentic; they also can be dramatic, moody and sometimes self-absorbed.

    What Type Fours tell us about themselves:
    Authenticity and meaningful experiences are essential to me.

    Many are artists who excel at expressing universal human emotions. While they are good at creating an image, it’s most important for them to be authentic.

    Fours use introjection to avoid ordinariness and maintain a self-image of being authentic.
    Fauvre: Katherine Fauvre Enneagram Consulting

    Type 4 Overview: You want to be gifted, intuitive, original and unique. More importantly, you want to be passionate, true to your feelings and uniquely authentic.

    You avoid affectation and anything dull, ordinary, ugly, vulgar, ina​uthentic or distasteful.
    Last edited by Lovely Agony; 03-31-2017 at 10:14 PM.
    Daeva, Rose for a Heart and Animal thanked this post.

  9. #3088
    Type 4w3

    I said nothing here about Bowie's type, or anywhere for several months, and you don't know how I currently type him. I suspect you may be digging up an old argument that happened somewhere else, but I can't even remember talking to you; apparently whatever occurred between us didn't stand out in my mind, whereas my interactions with other posters on the Bowie threads were more memorable. I am honored that you still feel so passionate about my arguments though - if those threads are indeed what you're referring to. I must have made a real impression on you. If you're not referring to the Bowie threads, I'm not sure where this is coming from.

    Take note that I did not argue with you about 4 in this thread. I don't see the point in engaging you on that topic. The points I made about your behavior, you completely ignored; and the content in your post is not something I care to respond to.
    Daeva thanked this post.

  10. #3089
    Type 4w5

    Quote Originally Posted by Rose for a Heart View Post
    Just reading some of the stuff about "persona" though, I think everyone has a persona or a mask...even Fi 4s.
    Definitely. I've seen it in a so-instinct ISFP 4. That instinct combined with the Tert Ni can easily craft a public persona that may be harshly judged by others as "inauthentic". The sx and sp types I've known are usually more resistant towards adapting to the social environment (as it is not their focus) to maintain one's sense of identity and to protect those deeply held values. There are loads of sx INFP 4s however I've yet to meet a social instinct INFP -- I would be interested to see the differences between a social instinct INFP and a sexual instinct INFP. @rose May I ask what your instinct stackings are if it's not too intrusive of me to ask?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lovely Agony View Post
    Sorry, I found your post TL;DR fully, though I skimmed through the text.
    If you don't wish to read through the entirety of my post to better understand my points which took me considerable time to compile, then I don't need to extend you that same courtesy either.

  11. #3090

    @Hermetica So/Sx
    Hermetica thanked this post.

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