How would ISFP 4s, XNFJ 4s and XNFP 4s differ in their expression of 'Fourness'?
This is a discussion on Se-4s, Ne-4s and Ni-4s: How do they differ in their expression? within the Type 4 Forum - The Individualist forums, part of the Heart Triad - Types 2,3,4 category; How would ISFP 4s, XNFJ 4s and XNFP 4s differ in their expression of 'Fourness'?...
How would ISFP 4s, XNFJ 4s and XNFP 4s differ in their expression of 'Fourness'?
Last edited by cudibloop; 10-08-2013 at 12:48 PM.
Well, I have yet to see an INFJ typing as a 4w3, they're almost always 4w5s. ENFP 4s on the other hand tend to be 4w3s. The 3 wing adds extroversion, charm, and is more out there than the 5 wing, which seems to fit with Ne/Ni differences. INFP's tend to be somewhere in the middle (and I've seen both INFP 4w3s and INFP 4w5s) - though INFP 4w3s naturally learn towards ENFP.
Ne is also strongly correlated with type 7, so I have a feeling that Ne-4s would seem much more bubbly and excitable. I know that to most people, I come across as a 7w6, unless we're really close friends. I'm generally optimistic, I don't relate to the 4 stereotype of whining and wallowing indefinitely.
I could only hypothesize. If I'd see a Sensation preferring 4, or an ENFJ-4, and if I'd compare it to 4s I have seen (INFJs, INFPs, ENFPs), I'd suppose the difference would only really exist categorically - within the Enneagram or within MBTI, and not both. I believe in a theoretical correlation between them. However, despite any MBTI type, a 4 is a 4, unmodified by MBTI.
The ENFPs, INFJs and INFPs who are 4s that I've seen all aim to surpass some awareness of insufficiency in themselves. The Ni/Ne difference doesn't make them differ, at least outside of how they develop their thoughts. An INFP-4 I know is less concerned about persisting to reveal implicit patterns possessing his thoughts like I. That fits the INFJ-4. The INFP-4 is self-assured of what is logical or illogical about social management, which Fi approaches in an idealistic way, rather than the Fe's more uniform way.
You could say the INFP-4 comes off as a 4 that is less fundamentally investigative of ideas and their consequences. Ni will dig, sift, and dig some more. Bear in mind this is cognitive; MBTI is cognitive, which the Enneagram is not. Tentatively an ISFP-4 would come off like the INFP-4, but I personally think they'd lack the necessary Intuition to satisfy the demands of the Enneatype 4, which thrives primarily on Intuition cognitively and motivationally. An ENFJ-4...I can't even imagine. The ENFJ cognitively organizes groups in that uniform way I mentioned, which preoccupies a great deal of its thoughts. The focus tends to be outside of the self than inside, where a 4 would deal with proving its potential greatness exists, withdrawing to regroup its thoughts if it fails, and habitually jumps to conclusions about its failures in the meantime. ENFJs typically stay outward. They're also more defensive about the best, pre-existing way, prompting some defensiveness foreign to how 4s (or correlates of the 4) would respond to such conflict.
I don't know how much help this will be..
I have 4 in my tritype and am an Ne-dom.
I find my 4 manifests itself often when I'm expressing myself to others or just by myself. When there's a status quo I'll make sure to paint what I say and do in a way I find is different and interesting, almost to establish or verify my identity.
It also involves a LOT of identity experimentation -- (Ne + 4.. duh!). You'll find I'm really open minded to trying new things and experiences.. not so much for type 7 reasons, but more so to gauge how much I like myself in that environment.
My friend is an Se-4w5, she is an ESFP. To be honest, at first, I was surprised that we had the same enneagram type. She is so much more sociable and outgoing than I. But talking to her one on one, you see a real gentleness in the way she can connect with you. I feel like her Fi somehow is brought out more since she is a 4. She can have deep compassion for others and she can talk about her feelings with me. She read the description of 4 and said straight away that it explained her a lot. She said she does often have that feeling of "what is missing?". But I think since she is an ESFP, she is much more pragmatic than I by searching for the answer to what is missing in a more tangible way. I feel like ISFP-4s might be similar in that regard. For example, she felt perhaps that only a relationship could fill that void, so she actively found a person for herself. Though later she revealed to me that even though she has someone now, she still feels that "missing" feeling. When she said that to me, I really got more of a sense of how 4 she is. And really, she is an Esfp. I see the extrovert in her. Can you imagine though, an ESFP-4? I feel like she really is special in that regard.
I also think she might be SP-first, like me. She doesn't seem like she would be openly dramatic, she contains a lot of her emotions to herself and is stoic. She cares a lot about having enough money to support herself and her future and finding stability, which at first doesn't seem very 4-like, but the more I read about SP-4's the more it makes sense. I have this need for stability and safety too. But if you read my other posts about wanting to quit my current career, you will see my dauntless side, which is common in SP-first fours.
By contrast, my father is an ESFP-7. He and her are both high energy, they both really enjoy new experiences (as expected of Se-doms) and seem like that would like similar music and tv shows. But its so hard to talk about with my feelings with my dad. You can tell he really is from the "head center", while my friend is from the "heart center". My friend empathizes with me first then tries to give advice, but sometimes she doesn't give advice and just encourages me. My father though first makes a joke about my feelings or the situation and then proceeds to brainstorm verbally all the ways the issue can be solved. It has almost always been like this. This is why I often wondered why my dad and my friend were so different! Back then I only knew about mbti and that they were both ESFPs, but I was so surprised how they could come across so different. I thought...maybe my friend just has a more developed Fi or something....which I think is true...but now I think it is because she is a 4. I have a theory that 4's of any type will perhaps have a stronger feeling function developed than perhaps the head center/gut centers of that mbti type. And I think my ESFP father, because he is a 7, uses Te a lot more.
I am an ENFJ 4. I think Ni is one reason that makes me feel different from a lot of people growing up....or mainly that lack of Se. Thankfully, I'm at that age where my Se and Ti are kicking in and I start to see things the way others have been seeing them for years. For example, I'm more blown away by physical beauty now in nature, in art, in people...lol.
But anyways, the Ni just makes me feel like I'm more in tune to the "hidden and subtle" aspects of this world. I know for sure that my Ni lead me to researching about all these personality theories. My sensor family and friends are interested in what I have to say about it (to an extent), but they aren't so interested that they would want to read books on it or research it themselves. Me, I always felt different and so finding the reasons why have been so powerful for me and fuels my hunger for knowledge.
And being Fe-dom also made me feel different from others. I always wondered why I could read people's emotions so well as a kid, why I often cared too much about other people and what they thought, why I would get hurt so easily, why I could get manipulated so easily too as a kid (inferior Ti sucks). So when I found out about mbti, I was so amazed. Though I then started noticing big differences between me and the ENFJs on the perC forum. They all seemed more confident, more sociable, more leader-like. I know I can have these traits in me. But they come out in rare moments when I feel really comfortable. Most of the time around strangers, I'm insecure and self conscious and withdrawn. Some seemed really bossy too. And I could see lots of ENFJ hate spreading in PerC and I could understand some of the points that were being made. I believed that their J's were so much more stronger than mine and maybe their Fe was going wild. My J is like 12% from the last test I took on it. I know I am a J. I am not spontaneous or as easy-going as P's are said to be and I cannot start something without finishing it (I get really anxious)...yet I know I'm not as J as others might be. To be honest, I am glad that I learned about enneagram, otherwise I would have tried to improve my J. At the time I liked trying to improve myself, so I thought I needed to start being more social and more outspoken, more organized, more-other centered, more like a leader and the stereotypical ENFJ ideal. But I tried and I failed. I was not as comfortable around others, especially when they hurt my feelings all the time, I was still self-absorbed, I was not assertive and I was not super confident or organized. I thought I was not a very good ENFJ. Thank goodness I discovered the enneagram and realized that I was a 4 and that I am not supposed to be all that anyway.
So anyways, the enneagram brought me more clarity and healing. I feel like as an ENFJ-4 I am less of a Giver label (which are usually assigned to type 2 ENFJs is what I think) and maybe less of an individualist, though that pains me to say that, that I am less of an individualist, than saying that I am less than a giver. I am not a Giver like a 2 because "other people's needs" are not usually priority in my head...unless the situation really calls for it. But I am not so much an individualist because I still care about other people's feelings a lot. I will still have my opinion/decision and can hold on to it for a long time, but if I sense that it is causing pain to someone else, I will start to ease off it. I might sometimes even sacrifice my opinion/decision for that other person...while feeling angsty, angry, upset, and melancholy the entire time.
I can be influenced really easily due to my Fe-dom personality, but I'm growing up and my Ni and Ti is working more and so it feels like my identity as a 4 is becoming more strong. I feel like everyday I'm learning how to find my own voice and rely on my own thoughts more. I kind of feel like a big change has occurred in my personality, a change for the better. Before learning about mbti, I could often portray an unhealthy ENFJ. I could manipulate my family when I was upset. I was more quietly judgmental. My Fe and sense of what is right and wrong could lead me to self-righteous anger when really all I needed was more empathy to see that I didn't have to be so angry. I sorta feel like I could relate more to P's now somehow. But I know I still am Fe-dom and that I am a J.
Anyways, this was scattered. Sorry, but hope it provides some useful things.
I found this post that describes me to a T:
https://personalitycafe.com/infj-foru...r-tritype.htmlI am a 5w4 and a 4w5 heart fix.Type Five: Contrary to popular opinion, I don't think that INFJ and Five are incompatible. I've seen people identify themselves as INFJ fours, then decide they're five and conclude they must also be INTJ. This is a mistake. I think INFJ and five would create a profound tension in the personality between the compassionate involvement of INFJ and the five fear of engulfment. The avarice of five would most likely manifest in a fear of being drained by others' problems, while the INFJ would feel guilty for not wanting to be more involved. Furthermore, the five tendency to tinker with constructs would be well suited to introverted intuition. With the INFJ preferring interpretation (as opposed to the INTJ preferring precision), you would find someone that is inclined towards the humanities--for example, continental philosophy and comparative literature would both probably be appealing to INFJ fives. Additionally, fives can actually be quite sensitive to rejection, which is more common among INFJs than INTJs, so this would be intensified. The extraverted feeling might appear more muted due to the five's tendency to hold back. However, extraverted feeling might also be used objectively: fives are fond of systems, so the "rules" governed by extraverted feeling might serve as a way to rationally decode what is happening in an interaction.
ISFP 4s seem to be the most image-y (on the surface)
I have nothing to back this up, so take my theory with a grain of salt, but I feel like they would express themselves pretty similarly. I say this because I feel like the Enneagram goes so much deeper into the core of a person than Myers-Briggs does. Then again, though I'm an INFP, I'm right on the line between INFP and ISFP, so I guess I don't favor one way of processing input more than the other.