[Enneagram Type 4] Dauntlessness in x/sp stacks

Dauntlessness in x/sp stacks

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This is a discussion on Dauntlessness in x/sp stacks within the Type 4 Forum - The Individualist forums, part of the Heart Triad - Types 2,3,4 category; I've been distracted into thinking about this lately. I've read several threads about so/sx vs so/sp. I believe I'm so/sp. ...

  1. #1
    Type 4w5

    Dauntlessness in x/sp stacks

    I've been distracted into thinking about this lately. I've read several threads about so/sx vs so/sp. I believe I'm so/sp.

    sp-dom 4 is described as tough, independent, and reckless (or, self-indulgent and picky). I am wondering if the dauntless quality comes through in so/sp variants in a way which differentiates from so/sx. Anecdotally, I have known a couple definite social 4's who I think are so/sx. The big difference between myself and them is they are quite a bit more light-footed and have a distinct flirty quality. I have something underneath the self-conscious so4ness that is definitely harder-edged, stubborn and relates to the dauntless, self-loathing aspect. It says "don't f*** with me", where the sx-second coos, "f*** with me, just a little bit, so I know I'm affecting you".

    My so/sx's get a little lazy and detached when stressed, eating and getting high. I tend to eat very little when stressed and go on impromptu expeditions that often involve me getting into hairy physical situations. I guess I am attracted to the idea of myself as a tough guy who can operate at physical/situational extremes.

    To use the logic that the second instinct is used to further the interests of the first, I'd posit:

    4 so/sp attempts to use dauntless behavior to achieve social image, ie "I'm the tough, slightly psycho one in this group, watch me do something risky or difficult"
    4 so/sx attempts to use seductive/relational talents to achieve social image, ie "I'm the desirable minx in this group, see how much fun you're gonna have with me"

    Any thoughts or examples for or against? (Realizing that not all sp 4s are dauntless.)
    username123 thanked this post.



  2. #2
    Type 6

    Mm.

    Although I am so-first, so/sp's (regardless of type) is one of the instinct stackings I understand and relate to the least. So I'm glad you started this thread, b/c the topic is very interesting to me.

    From my perspective, the most important thing isn't to achieve a "social image"- I want to tap into the energy of the group and be a part of that energy. It makes me feel more alive, and more generally engaged with my larger surroundings- like pinpricks of electric shock on a grid, and if you get to access those pinpricks you are a part of the current running through the grid. So without sx to me, can be like eating mush simply to survive, when in fact I want wine and manna.

    So the playfulness isn't primarily to project an image, it's an attempt to engage the energy. Although, to be honest, there is a lot of image-projecting too, particularly if I want to engage but are internally detached or withdrawn, as often happens. Then there's a tug between the outward energy (which begins to be a little disconnected from me) and the inward lack of presence. But of course the use of playfulness as a way to make others think you are interesting, or deserve to be there- that can be real too. I do find myself sometimes overusing charm to compensate for shame.

    What I really want to know is how the sp instinct feeds into the so as a corresponding need, and not separated into how it's manipulated in service of image. What do you feel when you relate to a group? What do you hope to get out of a group? How do you position yourself in relation to a group? etc.

    I honestly believe that how so/sx's and so/sp's conceptualize groups is fundamentally different, leading to a confusion in watching the other's behavior.

    Also, I believe that many people who are typed as so/sx are actually so/sp. There is an article about this that I will find and link later.
    Last edited by pandamonium; 12-10-2013 at 01:42 PM. Reason: I don't get the thoughts right the first time around

  3. #3
    Type 4w5

    I'm definitely a social four, but I'm not sure I fully relate to your thoughts about the two subtypes. I don't think I come off or try to come off as tough or as "you're gonna have so much fun with me!" I also get very detached and sluggish when I'm stressed, getting high a lot, but also eating less. I don't lose my appetite, but I'll go hungry all the time because eating seems to take a lot of effort. It's actually kind of ridiculous. Anyway, based on descriptions of so/sp and so/sx in this sticky: https://personalitycafe.com/type-4-fo...stackings.html, I can't decide which of the two I am. Maybe I'll be able to find some lengthier descriptions somewhere else. I'm definitely not the "life of the party," like the so/sx description mentions, unless I've had a couple drinks, in which case I turn into a social butterfly... I'm weird because I'm outgoing only when I first meet a person and then when I get to know them really well. In the middle, I'm very reserved, kind of polite and friendly, and I'll open my mouth just to say something that everyone either thinks is really funny or really strange. When I first meet people, I don't try to, but I kind of turn on the charm. I feel like I come off as confident and lighthearted when I'm first introduced to a person or in say, a group I've been assigned to for class. It's not that it's a fake me, but it only skims the surface of who I am. Like the so/sx description says, I always feel like an outsider, but I still somehow am always lucky enough to find a group of normal, outgoing, attractive friends. However, I think that's usually because I'll become really close with a couple people and end up being friends with their friends. But I also really relate to this part of the so/sp description: "Social anxiety combines with the Four's shame issues to make this type feel that the pressure associated with 'fitting in' is just not worth it." I never give up 100% on fitting in, but sometimes I give up for maybe two days max at a time, for example right now. I'm currently eating dinner in my room instead of socializing with my roommates because I don't feel like dealing with the stress of trying to think of the right things to say. Sorry my post became more of me typing out my introspections =\ I wish I actually had something insightful to say about sp/sx stacks...

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  5. #4
    Type 6

    Hi @username123, you might find this article helpful: https://personalitycafe.com/enneagram...ml#post2985640

    I like looking at the instinct stackings separately from type, as it describes the key motivations and energy flow of each stacking. I also find that stackings can affect who people get along with as much as type does. Also, I wanted to say that I too have often experienced what you describe- the not being able to leave my room b/c engagement doesn't feel worth the risk.

    @liric here is the article I promised. https://personalitycafe.com/whats-my-...ml#post2250669

    I have been thinking about your post, and do think a lot of what you wrote is true if you look at the surface presentations of the types. What I find interesting is that, I think in both cases (so/sp and so/sx 4), the social instinct presents the more timid image when average or unhealthy. Sp will provide an underlying dauntlessness, and sx can provide an underlying competitiveness, hatred, obsession, etc. The tension between the so-layer and the secondary stacking is perhaps something that so-first fours are very secretly aware of, and may even play up in their head ("if only you knew what I am like beneath this shyness...")

    I think also think that, for any stacking, the secondary instinct is where people go to find their "grounding." It feeds into the first, after all. It's where you pull from to get your first instinct met- sx/so will pull from the social realm to get merging/intensity, for instance. I forget if it was this forum or somewhere else where I was reading the other day, someone who self-typed as sx/sp saying that they really loved cooking and eating meals with someone as a setup to have conversations that delve into the other person's psyche.

    Edit: I also wanted to add a caveat to not take the first article too literally. Lol.
    username123 thanked this post.

  6. #5
    Type 4w5

    Quote Originally Posted by pandamonium View Post
    What I really want to know is how the sp instinct feeds into the so as a corresponding need, and not separated into how it's manipulated in service of image. What do you feel when you relate to a group? What do you hope to get out of a group? How do you position yourself in relation to a group? etc.
    Assuming I've typed myself accurately, I'd say so/sp 'me' gets a particular rise out of feeling needed by the group. Somewhere (on the institute description I think) it mentions so4 resembling 2, which makes sense because I do tend give and feel required for group functions. The big difference is (observing my actual 2 friends) that I don't want to 'give' anything ordinary or something that can be easily acquired elsewhere. I want to feel required because I possess unique skills or intelligence that no one else has and be valued and recognized for my gifts. This also relates to 5-wing I think. I was close to a sx/sp 4 for awhile and he absolutely had to be recognized as #1 at anything going on, or else he'd A) belittle whoever was getting the recognition or B) act like no one should care/leave/find a distraction. I really don't mind playing second fiddle or not having people recognizing me every second, as long as, in the back of everyone's mind, they know that I am necessary to somehow preserve some aspect of the group's awesomeness and that when it comes to my unique brand of being, I am the man.

    I do want it to be a 'cool' group (which I guess means girls?), but historically it's good enough as long as I believe it's cool. When this is going well, I feel like the group is powerful, like every person has their own colored, textured aura and their own brand of energy and we're walking around like a gang out of dragonball z or something where there isn't really a uniform per se, everyone just has their own badass thing going on (complete with power-up pose). I like to think we'd look great in a comic book. Let the normals point their fingers: "them, they're wild over there."

    Thanks for following up with the article, read that prior but thought it was hard to apply, for instance "so/sp = 'formal'"; maybe in a 6 or something it does, my innate style would be counter-formal if anything. You also mentioned:
    "The tension between the so-layer and the secondary stacking is perhaps something that so-first fours are very secretly aware of, and may even play up in their head ("if only you knew what I am like beneath this shyness...")"
    This might be something significant, because other so4 seem to have similar thing as myself going on where we always notice when other people are impersonating themselves but aren't aware of it. This is really annoying around other variants of 4 when they do something (especially in a group) and we think, "hey man, I'm like that too! Just not as shameless about it as you are!" It throws a wrench in somewhere because, come on, I can't look like I'm ripping off someone's style... Don't you love anonymous forums?

  7. #6
    Type 4w5

    Quote Originally Posted by liric View Post
    The big difference between myself and them is they are quite a bit more light-footed and have a distinct flirty quality. I have something underneath the self-conscious so4ness that is definitely harder-edged, stubborn and relates to the dauntless, self-loathing aspect. It says "don't f*** with me", where the sx-second coos, "f*** with me, just a little bit, so I know I'm affecting you".
    I'm so/sp and I would say the 1st one is definitely more accurate for me. I don't think I have a flirtatious bone in my body lol. Its more like if I really enjoy someones company I will just try to be open and friendly, people who do the whole flirty/playful thing sometimes annoy me. I definitely tend to conceptualize things in 'group' mentalities if that makes any sense. I guess the so/sp would be more concerned with finding and belonging to a group and too self-concious & serious to play around. We want to be taken seriously so we earn the respect of people we like. Thats what I would assume.

    And yea I think the "don't fuck with me" thing really means dont fuck with me for so/sp lol its not like a tenative thing or a game, maybe it is for sx idk.

  8. #7

    I'm sp-dom 4 and more self-indulgent and picky. It's also a matter of turning envy and shame inward, whereas so 4s can project shame a bit (elitism/snobbery) and sx 4s can project envy (demanding/entitled). Sp 4 is most masochistic, sort of destroying themselves to emphasize how significant they are (or were) by making others feel their absence. So they look like "I don't need/want you" but they feel like "I won't inflict myself on you...but it's your loss!".

    I imagine an so/sp would turn the envy inward, and look like someone who doesn't need romance, perhaps. Like they may scorn it as something mundane. Perhaps they are too intellectual for such things, etc. But so-dom 4 are supposedly the whiniest, so I'm not sure about "toughness". I think they'd wear shame more openly, to win pity, but also seek to establish identity through tastes/interests (which is very sp) that elevate or distinguish them from others. Maybe that's more sp/so, but I think both would be more about setting themselves apart socially via interests/tastes/insights, etc. Perhaps the wing makes a difference, because I realize this sounds 5ish too. Anyhow, in doing so, the 4 may sabotage themselves by alienating themselves (because all 4s are masochistic in some sense; they inadvertently seek frustration of desires).

    I personally find the word "dauntless" to be misleading, but the basic idea is NOT valuing your own well-being, and for a 4, IMO, this is more emotional but can be taken out on the body.

  9. #8
    Type 4w5

    Quote Originally Posted by pandamonium View Post
    Thanks :) That thread definitely makes it obvious that I'm so/sx, not sp.

  10. #9
    Type 4w5

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    emphasize how significant they are (or were) by making others feel their absence. So they look like "I don't need/want you" but they feel like "I won't inflict myself on you...but it's your loss!".

    I imagine an so/sp would turn the envy inward, and look like someone who doesn't need romance, perhaps. Like they may scorn it as something mundane. Perhaps they are too intellectual for such things, etc. But so-dom 4 are supposedly the whiniest, so I'm not sure about "toughness".
    The first part relates to the feeling of drawing away and wanting to be chased, I think. The other things about being whiny, or trying to get pity, I think those can run the gamut in all stackings. I've seen sp4 be the most flamboyantly fucked up attention whores, or the most impenetrable hardasses, or somewhere in the middle where they push through admirably but not without a tremendous need to broadcast their difficulty doing so. The specific effects desired may be the big difference. I still think so4 is the one most conscious about how they feel they are coming off, like there's an invisible camera there even in solitude. Thus, being whiny, in my case at least, feels really shameful but there has to be some way to communicate the feeling of frustration. This ends up being self-destructive decisions, which is why I hypothesize the sp coming out. Example: I read part of marilyn manson's (so/sp) autobio the other day, that dude is reckless in the extreme- especially if theres an audience. Other times, yeah it also comes out as complaining/snobbery/criticism, but I'm too self-conscious to go full monty on it like some of the Amy Lee-type characters I've known who just won't give it a rest. Yeah, I know, everyone's got their own way.

  11. #10

    Dauntless isn't how I would describe myself, though I've done some dauntless things. What was noted earlier about social Fours and their feeling of "you don't really know who I am" is so true. People assume I'm either this sweet, innocent girl or just too serious to have a sense of humor or be able to have any fun. Neither of which is true because it depends on the situation. I've done some risky things and am fairly open about trying out new things. I also have a dry, sarcastic sense of humor that can often be dark or inappropriate.

    I'm also not psycho. I might come across as being prickly and defensive in some situations, though.

    The thing I look for in groups is security in the sense of being accepted and valued. If the interests and values are similar to mine and if I feel respected, then it's a lot easier to relax and be myself. I don't seek close connections unless I make a special connection with someone in the group and I want to spend time with them outside of the shared group.
    pandamonium thanked this post.


     
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