[Enneagram Type 4] Fine Distinctions ¯ Fours ¯ Tom Condon

Fine Distinctions ¯ Fours ¯ Tom Condon

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This is a discussion on Fine Distinctions ¯ Fours ¯ Tom Condon within the Type 4 Forum - The Individualist forums, part of the Heart Triad - Types 2,3,4 category; Fine Distinctions – Fours – Tom Condon Self-Preservation Fours • Self-Preservation Fours are often risk takers • They take chances ...

  1. #1
    Type 4w3

    Fine Distinctions – Fours – Tom Condon

    Fine Distinctions – Fours – Tom Condon


    Self-Preservation Fours
    • Self-Preservation Fours are often risk takers
    • They take chances to stir up emotional intensity, collect new experiences, play outinner dramas or learn about themselves
    • Open advocates of the passionate life
    • Social and artistic courage; the high side of this subtype brings daring
    • Healthy Fours with this subtype often feel driven to express an inner vision and findthe courage and skill to bring it into the world
    • Often exceedingly practical in ways that support their creative enterprises
    • For some their home is an aesthetically soothing refuge, for others home is dank and depressing, prompting fantasies of beautiful places, a stimulant to envy
    • May have possessions they keep for a long time that are charged with symbolism and meaning
    • Environmentally sensitive react strongly to their surroundings; fussy and hard to please about new purchases
    • When less healthy, they take self-destructive risks or punish other by hurting themselves
    • Some can be reckless and openly court disaster while others merely flirt with loss
    • Sometimes the connection to One is extra strong. Fours with this subtype can harangue themselves in a Oneish way and then rebel with reckless behavior
    • Some resist the need to make a living; may hobble themselves with mystery ailments that prevent them from having a “straight job”
    • Self-Preservation Fours can be mistaken for counterphobic Sixes
    • Some Fours with this subtype struggle with their weight and body image as they relate to identity. Anorexia, overeating or obsessions about food are possible


    Intimate Fours
    • Intimate Fours love others in a deep way, and possess a sensitive, complex, poetic intelligence about matters of the heart
    • This is a highly romantic subtype, visible in the realms of romantic poetry, the troubadour tradition and popular music about love, especially in the lyrics of confessional singers
    • Often stay friends with ex-lovers
    • A focus on aesthetics; some Intimate Fours are tasteful, flashy dressers
    • Can harbor afantasy of perfect union, a redemptive love that will heal the wound of being an unwanted outsider
    • Prone to jealousy and may be competitive in close relationships as well as generally; can feel like there is only so much love to go around
    • Want to be Number One in their beloved’s heart or the only person their partner has ever loved; could be jealous of their partner’s past relationships
    • A stronger connection to Two
    • May be surprised to discover that their beloved has different needs; they assume mutuality of purpose and are unprepared to negotiate
    • Also prone to professional envy and try to best others at work
    • May be unable to enjoy their successes without demeaning the achievements ofothers
    • Intimate Fours can resemble Eights just as romantic Intimate Eights can resemble Fours
    • Can believe that without someone to love they are nothing and life is not worth living
    • When in love, images of their partner fill the Four’s awareness and attention. The beloved is a muse, necessary to connect Fours to their own life force
    • May take no responsibility for their life until Mr. or Ms. Right comes along
    • There can be a willful immaturity to this stance, a stubborn refusal to face facts no matter what the practical costs
    • Can be love addicts who lack the memory of being loved and believe they are condemned to search the world for something or someone to fill them up
    • Some Intimate Fours act markedly seductive to stave off being rejected
    • May engineer rejection by picking unavailable or inappropriate people to become infatuated with
    • A few have ambiguous, confused or exaggerated sexual identities or a chronic identity
    crisis around their sexuality

    Social Fours
    • Healthy Social Fours are unusually independent, self-affirming and socially courageous
    • Willing to take unpopular stands, initiate innovative projects or create institutions thathave humanistic or artistic purposes
    • They make good teachers especially of art, poetry, spirituality, realms of the heart andthe inner life
    • Can be idealistic, drawn to social causes, with a keen sense of justice. The connection to One is especially strong with this subtype
    • May play the role of the critical outsider, dissatisfied with the norm
    • Prone to shame because they compare themselves with the “normal” world around them, for deviating from imagined group norms
    • Highly self-critical although their critical voice often belongs to someone else
    • To refute the voice’s criticisms, a Social Four may romanticize her defects or snobbishly counter-criticize the group
    • May seek status or feel driven to achieve to get revenge against those who once laughed at them
    • Cover their shame with charm
    • Social Fours with a Five wing can grow antisocial and depressed, bearing their shame
    in solitude, in tension to a group that they keep at a distance


    Four with a Three Wing
    • Fours with a Three wing can seem like Sevens. Can be cheerful, outgoing, with asense of humor and style
    • May be “counter depressive,” in that they stay busy and on-task to avoid getting bogged down in melancholy
    • Healthy Fours with this wing marry art and commerce; they are both creative and effective, intuitive and ambitious
    • Generally more visual and kinesthetic and have a faster tempo of thought, speech and reaction
    • Often materialistic, can have elegant or expensive taste; could prize the rare
    • Might dress flashy – albeit in a color coordinated way – in contrast to Fours with a Five wing, who try to be socially invisible
    • Can be conscious of wearing a mask to hide their “true” deformed identity
    • Some are Three “wannabes”; they imitate Threes to pass in the “normal” world as high-functioning and well-adjusted citizens; underneath they feel like ETs
    • Can be exceptionally competitive, sometimes more so than Threes
    • Their pleasure in their own achievements may be tainted by jealousy or motivated by revenge
    • When recognized for what they accomplish, they may feel celebrated for the wrong reasons or dismiss the recognition as not enough
    • Fours with this wing can tend towards melodrama and flamboyance
    • Get lost in fraudulence, play the role of the artist or the authentic, unique one
    • Generally more conventional and less original than Fours with a Five wing
    • May have bad taste but not know it


    Four with a Five Wing
    • Fours with a Five wing are generally more introverted
    • When healthy they have a rich, complex creativity
    • Although somewhat intellectual, they have exceptional depth of feeling and insight
    • May be multi-talented in ways that they take for granted
    • Fours with this wing are often more original and idiosyncratic, unique to the point of eccentric
    • Use thinking to suppress or dissociate from their feelings
    • Often they are more auditory and kinesthetic and less consciously visual
    • They have a spiritual and aesthetic openness and may also have a marked need to pour themselves into creative or artistic pursuits
    • Try to use the strength of their minds to manage their emotional intensity
    • Some are loners who can seem enigmatic or hard to read
    • Externally reserved and internally resonant; when absorbed in a mood they can sit still and expressionless for long periods of time (hypnotic catalepsy)
    • An “open or closed” quality; after suddenly breaking hours of silence, the Four won’t stop talking
    • Fours with this wing will sometimes polarize against their own Three wing, making Threeness a shadow that they indict in others
    • Could see the world as dominated by trashy, materialistic values and pointless hyperactivity – things the Four secretly envies
    • Some are nondescript and try to be invisible. Consciously decide to venture into the world
    • Some are sedentary and, if not overweight, have no muscle tone
    • Especially prone to feeling alienated and depressed; could isolate themselves
    • More likely to argue for their limitations or prove they can’t function in the normal world
    • Might ignore practical matters or unpleasant but necessary chores, citing the strength of their feelings as an excuse
    • Can be whiny or have an air of sullen, withdrawn disappointment
    • Prone to sulking and stubborn, passive-aggressive sadness; unusually humorless
    • Can inhabit a private world of pain and loss or be morbidly in love with death
    • Might have a well-developed eye for the grotesque and the gothic
    • Like Sixes they can fear taking action; some complain of having little energy

    Four’s Connection to One
    • A healthy connection to One helps Fours locate and connect to the objective, factual world, independent of their inner feelings
    • Helps Fours balance the intensity of their feelings. They think more rationally and keep things in perspective
    • The connection to One brings discipline and diminishes a Four’s self- indulgence
    • Brings problem-solving skills and an unexpected practical streak: Fours can betalented at managing money and handling realistic details
    • Oneish Fours tend to be idealistic and work hard for what they believe in; morally courageous expressions of principle
    • Contributors rather than complainers, committed to living in and improving an imperfect world
    • When Fours are less healthy the connection to One devolves into being critical, fault finding and nit-picky
    • After the perfect union of falling in love the Four can turn critical and disapproving, focusing only on what is missing in his partner’s behavior
    • May have idealized, romantic dreams for which there are no partners or expect somuch of partners that they drive them away
    • Self-critical; may criticize themselves in a Oneish voice that speaks only of their Four’s flaws, reinforcing their sense of alienated difference
    • Oneish Fours can block themselves creatively or set themselves up to fail because nothing they produce is up to their own impossibly high standards
    • May criticize and tear down others, mainly out of jealousy
    • Sometimes latch onto a grandiose, obsessive Big Idea or believe they are attuned to Absolute Truth
    • Idealistic and artistic pretentiousness are possible; could feel they inhabit a lofty plane where their endeavors and aspirations can not be understood by mortals – The Great Artist Blues
    • Black and white thinking with a moral cast
    • Self-punitive and pleasure hating, fanaticism and religiosity are possible


    Four’s Connection to Two
    • Fours have a built-in connection to Two. When healthy it brings interpersonal skills and the ability to voluntarily empathize with others
    • Like Twos, Fours can float over and switch places with others and intuitively sensehow they feel. The Four will then filter and interpret other people’s feelings through the Four’s own subjectivity
    • Twoish Fours can be supportive, generous “foul weather” friends who understand and accept the pain of others
    • May volunteer their services to ease suffering
    • Act upon ideals, want to make the world a better place
    • The connection to Two brings the ability to teach or mentor, especially about subjective matters. Can accurately read the nonverbal behavior of others
    • When this connection is less healthy, a Four may compulsively merge with others, especially their pain, as it unconsciously reminds the Four of their own
    • May flatter, charm and placate, hoping to mask their sense of defect
    • Twoish Fours are prone to moody instability; by turns needy and then aggressive
    • Can put great demands on their relationships and be easily disappointed
    • Twoish Fours may flee themselves through codependent service to others
    • The Four sense of specialness is intensified by Twoish pride
    • Loud arguments and histrionic dramas are possible
    • Psychosomatic illness and age regression (becoming younger than your years) are stronger tendencies
    Last edited by Animal; 07-17-2016 at 01:04 PM.
    OrangeAppled, Starflakes, SuperNova85 and 16 others thanked this post.



  2. #2

    I tackled it and it suggests I am sp/sx or sx/sp, I guess...which I already know. I am sticking with sp/sx, because I do feel that one-connection.

    Bolded = yes
    italics = no
    regular text = sorta-maybe
    purple = my comments

    Self-Preservation Fours
    • Self-Preservation Fours are often risk takers
    - With what? Maybe a little with fashion? I don’t consider myself a big risk-taker, but then relative to what? Relative to most SJs around me, sure…
    • They take chances to stir up emotional intensity, collect new experiences, play outinner dramas or learn about themselves
    - Yeeeeah
    • Open advocates of the passionate life
    - Yeeeeah
    • Social and artistic courage; the high side of this subtype brings daring
    Not sure…but I don't feel "daring".
    • Healthy Fours with this subtype often feel driven to express an inner vision and find the courage and skill to bring it into the world
    I wish…?
    • Often exceedingly practical in ways that support their creative enterprises
    - Probably so…. I think I am pretty practical about making ends meet so I can do what I want in other ways.
    • For some their home is an aesthetically soothing refuge, for others home is dank and depressing, prompting fantasies of beautiful places, a stimulant to envy
    - Ideally, my home is a refuge. If I don’t attend to making it a soothing atmosphere, then I get depressed. I idealize being a sort of nomad though, but a small home base would be good.
    • May have possessions they keep for a long time that are charged with symbolism and meaning
    Nah. I can toss stuff pretty ruthlessly and see objects more as sensual things than having deep symbolism. I am not very sentimental about objects.
    • Environmentally sensitive, react strongly to their surroundings; fussy and hard to please about new purchases
    - Somewhat, but “fussy” is not the word. I am not hard to please, but I do know what I like. I can be pretty easy-going when dealing with others.
    • When less healthy, they take self-destructive risks or punish other by hurting themselves
    - I don’t think I’ve really done this
    • Some can be reckless and openly court disaster while others merely flirt with loss
    - Not sure
    • Sometimes the connection to One is extra strong. Fours with this subtype can harangue themselves in a Oneish way and then rebel with reckless behavior
    - I feel the 1 connection yes, but less so with reckless behavior
    • Some resist the need to make a living; may hobble themselves with mystery ailments that prevent them from having a “straight job”
    - No way. I can’t stand hypochondriacs, either.
    • Self-Preservation Fours can be mistaken for counterphobic Sixes
    - Probably not
    • Some Fours with this subtype struggle with their weight and body image as they relate to identity. Anorexia, overeating or obsessions about food are possible
    - I am pretty comfortable with my body, but am I careful to keep myself in shape & not over-indulge too much. I can be pretty strict if necessary, but honestly, I think this is a healthy thing.


    Intimate Fours
    • Intimate Fours love others in a deep way, and possess a sensitive, complex, poetic intelligence about matters of the heart
    - Is this not EVERY 4?
    • This is a highly romantic subtype, visible in the realms of romantic poetry, the troubadour tradition and popular music about love, especially in the lyrics of confessional singers
    - As long as its not cliche, sure.
    • Often stay friends with ex-lovers
    - No way. I want most of them to die. Love turns to hate...
    • A focus on aesthetics; some Intimate Fours are tasteful, flashy dressers
    - Yeeeeah
    • Can harbor a fantasy of perfect union, a redemptive love that will heal the wound of being an unwanted outsider
    - Oh yeeeeah
    • Prone to jealousy and may be competitive in close relationships as well as generally; can feel like there is only so much love to go around
    - I don’t experience myself as jealous or competitive, but I may feel bummed about not being anyone's “first choice” or “favorite” and part of what appeals to me about a romantic, monogamous relationship is the exclusivity aspect.
    • Want to be Number One in their beloved’s heart or the only person their partner has ever loved; could be jealous of their partner’s past relationships
    - Yes. The idea of being their only one REALLY appeals to me
    • A stronger connection to Two
    - Nah
    • May be surprised to discover that their beloved has different needs; they assume mutuality of purpose and are unprepared to negotiate
    - Not sure…maybe a little bit
    • Also prone to professional envy and try to best others at work
    - Nope
    • May be unable to enjoy their successes without demeaning the achievements of others
    - Nope…hate that attitude too
    • Intimate Fours can resemble Eights just as romantic Intimate Eights can resemble Fours
    - Nope
    • Can believe that without someone to love they are nothing and life is not worth living
    - Yeah…too much focus on this as the ultimate fulfillment
    • When in love, images of their partner fill the Four’s awareness and attention. The beloved is a muse, necessary to connect Fours to their own life force
    - Yeah
    • May take no responsibility for their life until Mr. or Ms. Right comes along
    - No
    • There can be a willful immaturity to this stance, a stubborn refusal to face facts no matter what the practical costs
    - Not sure
    • Can be love addicts who lack the memory of being loved and believe they are condemned to search the world for something or someone to fill them up
    - I suspect this is true…I never feel loved & have a feeling of being condemned to some relationship purgatory where you neither suffer loss nor are rewarded (perpetual waiting). I sort will insist “love” never happened in the aftermath also.
    • Some Intimate Fours act markedly seductive to stave off being rejected
    - See this more in recent years, but not in my past. I wouldn’t know how to seduce a pet rock. Now, I am very subtle and have enjoyed messing with people, which was very wrong and I do feel soooo bad.
    • May engineer rejection by picking unavailable or inappropriate people to become infatuated with
    - Uhhh…..so bad!
    • A few have ambiguous, confused or exaggerated sexual identities or a chronic identity
    crisis around their sexuality
    - Nah


    Social Fours
    • Healthy Social Fours are unusually independent, self-affirming and socially courageous
    - Yeah!
    Willing to take unpopular stands, initiate innovative projects or create institutions that have humanistic or artistic purposes
    - I am willing to initiate/create such things, but maybe not able…sounds nice though.
    • They make good teachers especially of art, poetry, spirituality, realms of the heart and the inner life
    - Yeah!
    • Can be idealistic, drawn to social causes, with a keen sense of justice. The connection to One is especially strong with this subtype
    - Yes, but not political. More interested spiritual, er, "causes".
    • May play the role of the critical outsider, dissatisfied with the norm
    - Sometimes
    • Prone to shame because they compare themselves with the “normal” world around them, for deviating from imagined group norms
    - Sometimes, but I have always enjoyed deviating and am limited more by moral ideals. It pains me more to realize how terribly ordinary I am.
    • Highly self-critical although their critical voice often belongs to someone else
    - Yes
    • To refute the voice’s criticisms, a Social Four may romanticize her defects or snobbishly counter-criticize the group
    - Yes
    • May seek status or feel driven to achieve to get revenge against those who once laughed at them
    - Not so much
    • Cover their shame with charm
    - I wish
    • Social Fours with a Five wing can grow antisocial and depressed, bearing their shame
    in solitude, in tension to a group that they keep at a distance
    - Sometimes


    Four with a Three Wing
    Fours with a Three wing can seem like Sevens. Can be cheerful, outgoing, with a sense of humor and style
    - Not really….although I think I have style and some humor
    • May be “counter depressive,” in that they stay busy and on-task to avoid getting bogged down in melancholy
    - Nope
    Healthy Fours with this wing marry art and commerce; they are both creative and effective, intuitive and ambitious
    - I make a living doing commercial art, so sure.
    • Generally more visual and kinesthetic and have a faster tempo of thought, speech and reaction
    - Probably
    • Often materialistic, can have elegant or expensive taste; could prize the rare
    - Heh…
    • Might dress flashy – albeit in a color coordinated way – in contrast to Fours with a Five wing, who try to be socially invisible
    - Oh yeah
    • Can be conscious of wearing a mask to hide their “true” deformed identity
    - No I don’t think so
    • Some are Three “wannabes”; they imitate Threes to pass in the “normal” world as high-functioning and well-adjusted citizens; underneath they feel like ETs
    - Probably not
    • Can be exceptionally competitive, sometimes more so than Threes
    - No way
    • Their pleasure in their own achievements may be tainted by jealousy or motivated by revenge
    - How many ways can you say "no"?
    • When recognized for what they accomplish, they may feel celebrated for the wrong reasons or dismiss the recognition as not enough
    - No I don’t think so
    • Fours with this wing can tend towards melodrama and flamboyance
    - I don’t think so
    • Get lost in fraudulence, play the role of the artist or the authentic, unique one
    - No
    • Generally more conventional and less original than Fours with a Five wing
    - Possibly
    • May have bad taste but not know it
    - hahahaha! I hope not! Horror of horrors! No way…people love my style.


    Four with a Five Wing
    • Fours with a Five wing are generally more introverted
    - oh yes
    • When healthy they have a rich, complex creativity
    - would be nice… I’ll claim it
    • Although somewhat intellectual, they have exceptional depth of feeling and insight
    - yaaaas
    • May be multi-talented in ways that they take for granted
    - maybe…? I think I am. I will own it!
    • Fours with this wing are often more original and idiosyncratic, unique to the point of eccentric
    - I wish!
    • Use thinking to suppress or dissociate from their feelings
    - YES
    • Often they are more auditory and kinesthetic and less consciously visual
    - No…I wish I was auditory. I am VERY visual. I LOVE music but have no gift for it. I do think I have some sense of rhythm for the written word.
    • They have a spiritual and aesthetic openness and may also have a marked need to pour themselves into creative or artistic pursuits
    - Yes
    • Try to use the strength of their minds to manage their emotional intensity
    - YES
    • Some are loners who can seem enigmatic or hard to read
    - This is my social feedback…
    • Externally reserved and internally resonant; when absorbed in a mood they can sit still and expressionless for long periods of time (hypnotic catalepsy)
    - YES
    • An “open or closed” quality; after suddenly breaking hours of silence, the Four won’t stop talking
    -YES
    • Fours with this wing will sometimes polarize against their own Three wing, making Threeness a shadow that they indict in others
    - I really like threes though! So I say “no”
    • Could see the world as dominated by trashy, materialistic values and pointless hyperactivity – things the Four secretly envies
    - Probably
    • Some are nondescript and try to be invisible. Consciously decide to venture into the world
    - Yes and no. I have felt the first, but it is not how people have seen me. The bolded was true. I made a conscious decision to “live”.
    • Some are sedentary and, if not overweight, have no muscle tone
    - Nope
    • Especially prone to feeling alienated and depressed; could isolate themselves
    - Yes
    • More likely to argue for their limitations or prove they can’t function in the normal world
    - Sometimes I argue this, but then I go ahead and function
    • Might ignore practical matters or unpleasant but necessary chores, citing the strength of their feelings as an excuse
    - haha….
    • Can be whiny or have an air of sullen, withdrawn disappointment
    Maybe
    • Prone to sulking and stubborn, passive-aggressive sadness; unusually humorless
    - Yes, but I have humor
    • Can inhabit a private world of pain and loss or be morbidly in love with death
    - yes, but it’s very private
    • Might have a well-developed eye for the grotesque and the gothic
    - I like some of it but don't go for this look myself (I like color & whimsy too much)
    • Like Sixes they can fear taking action; some complain of having little energy
    - Lack of energy is there, but I don’t fear action


    Four’s Connection to One
    • A healthy connection to One helps Fours locate and connect to the objective, factual world, independent of their inner feelings
    • Helps Fours balance the intensity of their feelings. They think more rationally and keep things in perspective
    • The connection to One brings discipline and diminishes a Four’s self- indulgence
    • Brings problem-solving skills and an unexpected practical streak: Fours can be talented at managing money and handling realistic details
    • Oneish Fours tend to be idealistic and work hard for what they believe in; morally courageous expressions of principle
    • Contributors rather than complainers, committed to living in and improving an imperfect world
    • When Fours are less healthy the connection to One devolves into being critical, fault finding and nit-picky
    • After the perfect union of falling in love the Four can turn critical and disapproving, focusing only on what is missing in his partner’s behavior
    • May have idealized, romantic dreams for which there are no partners or expect so much of partners that they drive them away
    • Self-critical; may criticize themselves in a Oneish voice that speaks only of their Four’s flaws, reinforcing their sense of alienated difference
    • Oneish Fours can block themselves creatively or set themselves up to fail because nothing they produce is up to their own impossibly high standards
    • May criticize and tear down others, mainly out of jealousy
    • Sometimes latch onto a grandiose, obsessive Big Idea or believe they are attuned to Absolute Truth
    • Idealistic and artistic pretentiousness are possible; could feel they inhabit a lofty plane where their endeavors and aspirations can not be understood by mortals – The Great Artist Blues
    • Black and white thinking with a moral cast
    • Self-punitive and pleasure hating, fanaticism and religiosity are possible




    Four’s Connection to Two
    • Fours have a built-in connection to Two. When healthy it brings interpersonal skills and the ability to voluntarily empathize with others
    • Like Twos, Fours can float over and switch places with others and intuitively sense how they feel. The Four will then filter and interpret other people’s feelings through the Four’s own subjectivity
    • Twoish Fours can be supportive, generous “foul weather” friends who understand and accept the pain of others
    • May volunteer their services to ease suffering
    • Act upon ideals, want to make the world a better place
    • The connection to Two brings the ability to teach or mentor, especially about subjective matters. Can accurately read the nonverbal behavior of others
    When this connection is less healthy, a Four may compulsively merge with others, especially their pain, as it unconsciously reminds the Four of their own
    • May flatter, charm and placate, hoping to mask their sense of defect
    • Twoish Fours are prone to moody instability; by turns needy and then aggressive
    • Can put great demands on their relationships and be easily disappointed
    • Twoish Fours may flee themselves through codependent service to others
    • The Four sense of specialness is intensified by Twoish pride
    • Loud arguments and histrionic dramas are possible
    • Psychosomatic illness and age regression (becoming younger than your years) are stronger tendencies
    - age regression? what is that?! uh oh…
    Last edited by OrangeAppled; 07-21-2016 at 07:36 PM.

  3. #3
    Type 4w3

    Ahh I just realized I posted mine in the general Tom Condon thread rather than here, so I'll repost it here:

    I will bold what I feel applies to me, cross out what doesn't, leave what is neutral, and italicize my own commentary and put it in red.
    ______

    Fine Distinctions – Fours – Tom Condon
    Subtypes

    Self-Preservation Fours
    • Self-Preservation Fours are often risk takers
    (I take major risks for the sake of pursuing my dreams, but not for their own sake or the 'thrill')
    They take chances to stir up emotional intensity, collect new experiences, play out inner dramas or learn about themselves
    (I don't care about collecting new experiences, but I have locked myself in rooms on LSD to do art experiments which would result in me learning about myself. There is no end to what I will do for the sake of learning about myself, expressing myself, etc. It's not about the experiences themselves, unless that experience involves learning more about a guy I'm obsessed with.)
    Open advocates of the passionate life
    Social and artistic courage; the high side of this subtype brings daring
    Healthy Fours with this subtype often feel driven to express an inner vision and find the courage and skill to bring it into the world
    (It would be harder for me NOT to express my inner vision and bring my skills to the world, so I'm not sure I'd call it courage.)
    Often exceedingly practical in ways that support their creative enterprises
    For some their home is an aesthetically soothing refuge, for others home is dank anddepressing, prompting fantasies of beautiful places, a stimulant to envy
    May have possessions they keep for a long time that are charged with symbolism and meaning
    Environmentally sensitive react strongly to their surroundings; fussy and hard toplease about new purchases
    When less healthy, they take self-destructive risks or punish other by hurtingthemselves
    Some can be reckless and openly court disaster while others merely flirt with loss
    (This did apply to me during trauma)
    Sometimes the connection to One is extra strong. Fours with this subtype canharangue themselves in a Oneish way and then rebel with reckless behavior
    Some resist the need to make a living; may hobble themselves with mystery ailmentsthat prevent them from having a “straight job”
    (This is unfair because I have a chronic illness and can't work much, but I do try to work when I can, so no, I've always been productive & pragmatic about things; my condition is not made up or exaggerated; if anything I play it down. yet someone who doesn't know my background might think this)
    Self-Preservation Fours can be mistaken for counterphobic Sixes
    • Some Fours with this subtype struggle with their weight and body image as they relateto identity. Anorexia, overeating or obsessions about food are possible
    (Only during trauma-reaction)


    Intimate Fours
    Intimate Fours love others in a deep way, and possess a sensitive, complex, poetic intelligence about matters of the heart
    This is a highly romantic subtype, visible in the realms of romantic poetry, the troubadour tradition and popular music about love, especially in the lyrics ofconfessional singers
    (I'm romantic in the sense of being in love with beauty, nature, animals, my own animalism, the arts, music especially, realizing my dreams, my suffering, finding/being with my soulmate, but I felt hopeless about love for a long time.)
    Often stay friends with ex-lovers
    • A focus on aesthetics; some Intimate Fours are tasteful, flashy dressers
    Can harbor a fantasy of perfect union, a redemptive love that will heal the wound of being anunwanted outsider
    Prone to jealousy and may be competitive in close relationships as well as generally; can feel like there is only so much love to go around
    Want to be Number One in their beloved’s heart or the only person their partner hasever loved; could be jealous of their partner’s past relationships
    A stronger connection to Two
    May be surprised to discover that their beloved has different needs; they assume mutuality of purpose and are unprepared to negotiate
    Also prone to professional envy and try to best others at work
    (Yes but only in my field of interest such as music and writing and jobs related to that; not at "normal" jobs that are inconsequential to me. That said I was competitive in college in subjects I cared about.)
    May be unable to enjoy their successes without demeaning the achievements of others
    Intimate Fours can resemble Eights just as romantic Intimate Eights can resemble Fours
    • Can believe that without someone to love they are nothing and life is not worth living
    (If I'm not true to myself, life is not worth living. If I don't know what I'm willing to die for, I'm not really alive. It's about my own vision and integrity. The way I conduct myself in love is part of that, but I would not say it isn't worth living if I'm alone - love and obsession is always part of my artistic expression, and if I can't have it in real life I will live vicariously through my art.)
    When in love, images of their partner fill the Four’s awareness and attention. The beloved is a muse, necessary to connect Fours to their own life force
    (This is basically my life motto. "Without a muse, music is just math.")
    May take no responsibility for their life until Mr. or Ms. Right comes along
    (Instead I would build myself up so that I'm more ideal when he does come along.)
    There can be a willful immaturity to this stance, a stubborn refusal to face facts nomatter what the practical costs
    • Can be love addicts who lack the memory of being loved and believe they are condemned to search the world for something or someone to fill them up
    (Sort of. Before I met my soulmate I replayed the memories of my first love over and over. I genuinely loved him, my 8w7 ex.. and I wrote him into characters, I hung on to it)
    Some Intimate Fours act markedly seductive to stave off being rejected
    May engineer rejection by picking unavailable or inappropriate people to become infatuated with
    (More like, the fear of rejection is so strong that it causes me to act in ridiculous ways that result in me getting rejected. )
    A few have ambiguous, confused or exaggerated sexual identities or a chronic identity crisis around their sexuality
    (My male alter-ego and his interaction with the female depiction of me may be a good example of this; though it's more of a gender play. The part related to my sexuality is about how he doesn't want to suffer anyone to be with him and feels like he brings destruction to those he loves, whereas she believes in love and finding her soulmate and will pine for him, write music about him and follow him to the ends of the universe. Both consider each other their muse, so that is consistent throughout my identities.)

    Social Fours
    Healthy Social Fours are unusually independent, self-affirming and sociallycourageous
    Willing to take unpopular stands, initiate innovative projects or create institutions thathave humanistic or artistic purposes
    They make good teachers especially of art, poetry, spirituality, realms of the heart and the inner life
    (I'm a horrible teacher in any formal setting but among friends, sure)
    Can be idealistic, drawn to social causes, with a keen sense of justice. The connection to One is especially strong with this subtype
    (I have a lot to say about my ideals for the world, and I think through them practically too. But I'm not at all attracted to group causes; it's more that my own vision is something I feel the desire to express in my novels and music. I like to think my political philosophies are consistent with my personal manner of loving, existing, integrity, etc)
    • May play the role of the critical outsider, dissatisfied with the norm
    (I don't play that role but the norm is definitely pathetic.)
    Prone to shame because they compare themselves with the “normal” world aroundthem, for deviating from imagined group norms
    Highly self-critical although their critical voice often belongs to someone else
    (This only happens when I'm obsessed with someone who is rejecting me)
    To refute the voice’s criticisms, a Social Four may romanticize her defects orsnobbishly counter-criticize the group
    (I am prone to romanticize defects at times but the rest isn't me)
    • May seek status or feel driven to achieve to get revenge against those who once laughed at them
    Cover their shame with charm
    (People call me charismatic but I don't consider myself charming. Whatever charm I may possess is an accident; a result of me being awkward or too blunt or things like that. When I actually want to charm someone I get too nervous and have no clue what to say. Sometimes my version of charming is challenging someone, nailing them to the wall and showing off, some of which do not go over well)
    Social Fours with a Five wing can grow antisocial and depressed, bearing their shame
    in solitude, in tension to a group that they keep at a distance

    (I like solitude, but this isn't why - it's not about the group - either I'm caught up on a project, sick of the bullshit, or feeling rejected and don't want to be seen)


    _____

    Four with a Three Wing
    Fours with a Three wing can seem like Sevens. Can be cheerful, outgoing, with asense of humor and style
    (I don't think I seem like a 7 but others do, apparently)

    • May be “counter depressive,” in that they stay busy and on-task to avoid getting bogged down in melancholy
    (I do feel my art projects bring me catharsis but it's not about staying randomly busy. Physical activity with music in my headphones does help me process my emotions. I'd rather process them than get away from them or shut them out... every time. That said, if I have stuff I HAVE to do, I'll do it.)
    Healthy Fours with this wing marry art and commerce; they are both creative and effective, intuitive and ambitious
    (For years I planned to get a tattoo around my wedding ring finger of my symbol - from my own system of symbols - which stood for 'the force that drives you,' meaning - in my case - my own inspiration, music, the arts, self-expression etc. I literally have referred to the arts as my husband.)
    • Generally more visual and kinesthetic and have a faster tempo of thought, speech and reaction
    Often materialistic, can have elegant or expensive taste; could prize the rare
    (I prize what is meaningful and expresses ME whether it's expensive or rare or not. "Rare" and "expensive" strike me as worldly concerns that are not from my planet.)
    Might dress flashy – albeit in a color coordinated wayin contrast to Fours with a Five-wing, who try to be socially invisible
    • Can be conscious of wearing a mask to hide their “true” deformed identity
    (Not too good at hiding things. My emotions are written on my face. When I have a crush my impulse is to hide it.. but I also don't want to put him off, so I feel like I'm walking a tightrope and I'm vulnerable. When I'm with him, we may connect genuinely, but when attention is drawn to "us" I feel like I'm ignoring an elephant in the room I have no idea what to say; it's just awkward. I am not good at deliberate charm.)
    • Some are Three “wannabes”; they imitate Threes to pass in the “normal” world as high-functioning and well-adjusted citizens; underneath they feel like ETs
    (I don't feel much need to pass as "normal" but I do want to be successful at my endeavors and I can be bold and aggressive to get what I want. Most people think I'm sweet, but deliberate charm is not my forte; my charm tends to be my honesty, my bizarre insights, intensely complex and deep emotional art projects or my in-depth abilities. I do know my strengths and which ones to show off but charm or being normal is not one)
    Can be exceptionally competitive, sometimes more so than Threes
    (Only in my fields of interest and men of interest; not over "just anything." I don't need to best others at normal things like beauty or money or possessions or friends; I need to be the absolute best at my own niche and with my own man. And in those scenarios my competitiveness knows no bounds.)
    Their pleasure in their own achievements may be tainted by jealousy or motivated by revenge
    (The need to outdo my ex and prove to both me, and myself, that I was more a musician than he, more dedicated, could do it without him etc, kept me going for years when I was recording my album and fighting tremendous odds to survive in the city, play shows with my whispery voice etc. I just kept picturing him feeling like he wished he did it first; he wished he pursued his music - he was so talented, but just wasting away. I was so satisfied when I gave him my album and he shook and cried and told me he wished he did it first. I care about him so I also hoped it would inspire him; but I needed to show him who is boss.)
    When recognized for what they accomplish, they may feel celebrated for the wrong reasons or dismiss the recognition as not enough
    (My mom and my pseudo-manager told me so many times that when people in the audience say I'm great, I should say "thank you" instead of speeches of excuses and disclaimers.)
    • Fours with this wing can tend towards melodrama and flamboyance
    (Fake drama over nothing bores me.)
    Get lost in fraudulence, play the role of the artist or the authentic, unique one
    Generally more conventional and less original than Fours with a Five wing
    • May have bad taste but not know it
    (Lol I hope not!)


    Four with a Five Wing
    • Fours with a Five wing are generally more introverted
    When healthy they have a rich, complex creativity
    Although somewhat intellectual, they have exceptional depth of feeling and insight
    (I don't consider myself intellectual but most people do. The depth of feeling and insight; I've been hearing that since I was a child.)
    May be multi-talented in ways that they take for granted
    Fours with this wing are often more original and idiosyncratic, unique to the point of eccentric
    Use thinking to suppress or dissociate from their feelings
    Often they are more auditory and kinesthetic and less consciously visual
    They have a spiritual and aesthetic openness and may also have a marked need to pour themselves into creative or artistic pursuits
    (Yes, this need is like breathing to me. I'm dead without it.)
    • Try to use the strength of their minds to manage their emotional intensity
    (Sort of. I try to use creative expression and other types of power to manage it. Maybe my mind, but I need to think about it.)
    • Some are loners who can seem enigmatic or hard to read
    (Nope, my every emotion and sub-emotion is splat on my face. As for loner, sometimes. It depends. I have friends but I'm quite independent and willfully autonomous.)
    • Externally reserved and internally resonant; when absorbed in a mood they can sit stilland expressionless for long periods of time (hypnotic catalepsy)
    (Hmm.. I can sit in a mood for a long time, but I'm not sure if I look expressionless. I feel like people can always tell)
    • An “open or closed” quality; after suddenly breaking hours of silence, the Four won’tstop talking
    • Fours with this wing will sometimes polarize against their own Three wing, makingThreeness a shadow that they indict in others
    (Probably not, I love my vanity. Not sure what this actually means.)
    Could see the world as dominated by trashy, materialistic values and pointless hyperactivity things the Four secretly envies
    (I don't envy that stuff. I take Action when something matters to me. That said, I do see the world being dominated by that crap.)
    Some are nondescript and try to be invisible. Consciously decide to venture into theworld
    Some are sedentary and, if not overweight, have no muscle tone
    (Only when sick & writing)
    Especially prone to feeling alienated and depressed; could isolate themselves
    • More likely to argue for their limitations or prove they can’t function in the normal world
    (I do feel like I'm too sensitive for this world at times; other times I feel like the world is mine to do what I will with.)
    • Might ignore practical matters or unpleasant but necessary chores, citing the strengthof their feelings as an excuse
    (I'm not sure - I'd say no but my mother would say yes)
    • Can be whiny or have an air of sullen, withdrawn disappointment
    (I don't know. People often ask me "What's wrong?")
    Prone to sulking and stubborn, passive-aggressive sadness; unusually humorless
    (I'm aggressive much more than passive aggressive, and I have a sense of humor, though sometimes people are annoyed that my sense of humor is not present at the time)
    Can inhabit a private world of pain and loss or be morbidly in love with death
    Might have a well-developed eye for the grotesque and the gothic
    Like Sixes they can fear taking action; some complain of having little energy


    Four’s Connection to One

    • A healthy connection to One helps Fours locate and connect to the objective, factual world, independent of their inner feelings
    (Feelings are part of reality so I find this distinction nonsensical.)
    Helps Fours balance the intensity of their feelings. They think more rationally and keep things in perspective
    (I am very calm in a crisis and people are often surprised how rational I can be when it's necessary.)
    The connection to One brings discipline and diminishes a Four’s self- indulgence
    (Discipline is necessary to express myself and live my dreams; I wouldn't say the satisfaction I get from knowing I'm pouring my blood, sweat and tears into living those dreams is bereft of self indulgence, however.)
    Brings problem-solving skills and an unexpected practical streak: Fours can be talented at managing money and handling realistic details
    (Always been this way. I don't handle things in a way that makes sense to others but I do handle them, and I've always been good with managing money even when broke as fuck.)
    Oneish Fours tend to be idealistic and work hard for what they believe in; morally courageous expressions of principle
    (I'm the only one who stands up against a horde around here over many issues. I can lose friends for it, lose fans, etc, but I don't give a fuck because I'd lose MYSELF if I were any other way.)
    Contributors rather than complainers, committed to living in and improving an imperfect world
    • When Fours are less healthy the connection to One devolves into being critical, faultfinding and nit-picky
    • After the perfect union of falling in love the Four can turn critical and disapproving, focusing only on what is missing in his partner’s behavior
    May have idealized, romantic dreams for which there are no partners or expect so much of partners that they drive them away
    • Self-critical; may criticize themselves in a Oneish voice that speaks only of their Four’s flaws, reinforcing their sense of alienated difference
    • Oneish Fours can block themselves creatively or set themselves up to fail becausenothing they produce is up to their own impossibly high standards
    • May criticize and tear down others, mainly out of jealousy
    (I do this in my song lyrics and characters to the max. Usually if I'm jealous of someone I don't tear them down directly. I do tear down those who piss me off however. There are exceptions though, when I did tear people down out of jealousy..but it's not pervasive)
    • Sometimes latch onto a grandiose, obsessive Big Idea or believe they are attuned to Absolute Truth
    Idealistic and artistic pretentiousness are possible; could feel they inhabit a lofty plane where their endeavors and aspirations can not be understood by mortals – The GreatArtist Blues
    (Yes, my home planet..)
    • Black and white thinking with a moral cast
    Self-punitive and pleasure hating, fanaticism and religiosity are possible


    Four’s Connection to Two

    Fours have a built-in connection to Two. When healthy it brings interpersonal skills and the ability to voluntarily empathize with others
    (Sure but I don't think it's voluntary. Empathy is not something I can help.)
    • Like Twos, Fours can float over and switch places with others and intuitively sense how they feel. The Four will then filter and interpret other people’s feelings through theFour’s own subjectivity
    (I have such a complex emotional map of all my feelings and sub-feelings that I instantly match others' feelings to that map, so I can feel how they feel in the sense that it's something I have also subjectively experienced. This can happen with animals too.)
    Twoish Fours can be supportive, generous “foul weather” friends who understand andaccept the pain of others
    May volunteer their services to ease suffering
    (In fact I prefer being around people who are genuinely suffering rather than playing victim which I have no patience for. Genuine suffering is the heart of life and connects me to the depths of myself. It is something real in a false world. So it's partially selfish.)
    • Act upon ideals,
    want to make the world a better place
    (I can't control the world but I hope that expressing myself will inspire others to do the same.)
    • The connection to Two brings the ability to teach or mentor, especially about subjective matters. Can accurately read the nonverbal behavior of others
    (I read this stuff very easily but I'm shy to tell anyone; I feel like the level of insight I possess about others' emotions can actually creep people out, so I usually talk about myself and avoid sharing what I observe about theirs. I am mostly focused on myself and my inner world, but this stuff just stands out to me; I can't NOT see it.)
    When this connection is less healthy, a Four may compulsively merge with others, especially their pain, as it unconsciously reminds the Four of their own
    (With the pain - yes, but only momentarily. Deeper merging, as in experiencing that person's pain as part of myself when they're not there, will only if I envy and obsess over the person.)• May flatter, charm and placate, hoping to mask their sense of defect
    (Sometimes if someone is suffering, I actually prefer to show my sense of defect because it makes others feel more comfortable around me.)
    Twoish Fours are prone to moody instability; by turns needy and then aggressive
    (If I am needy I hide it. I am most prone to withdraw when I feel needy. So yes, but not outwardly needy unless I really trust the person)
    • Can put great demands on their relationships and be easily disappointed
    Twoish Fours may flee themselves through codependent service to others
    The Four sense of specialness is intensified by Twoish pride
    Loud arguments and histrionic dramas are possible
    (I'm more prone to withdraw when feeling rejected than act out histrionic dramas)
    Psychosomatic illness and age regression (becoming younger than your years) are stronger tendencies
    OrangeAppled and Daeva thanked this post.

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  5. #4
    Type 4w3

    @OrangeAppled
    I've been considering Sp/Sx and 4w5 lately, but when I compare mine to yours, I look more like Sx/Sp and 4w3. Typing by comparison may not be the most foolproof way to do it.... but.. I can't help but notice that you have more of the enigmatic qualities and struggle to put yourself out there, whereas I have more 2ish and competitive/revenge-like issues.
    OrangeAppled thanked this post.

  6. #5
    Type 4w3

    I am writing this from my phone, so I'll just write my explanation in the paranthesis.

    SELF-PRESERVATION FOURS

    Self-Preservation Fours are often risk takers. (True. I won't hesitate to take risks because I know there are lessons to be learnt in mistakes too and so a chance to learn about yourself and I crave that, and especially if it comes to something I really want. All or nothing rolls eyes* haha)
    * They take chances to stip up emotional intensity, collect new experiences, play outinner dramas or learn about themselves. (Truerl. It's my soul food, I can't starve myself.)
    * Open advocates of the passionate life. (True. Only thing I am willing to commit to is always following my passion/fire inside.)
    * Social and artistic courage; the high side of this subtype brings daring (Yes.)
    * Healthy Fours with this subtype often feel driven to express an inner vision and find the courage and skill to bring it into the world. (True, healthy or unhealthy.)
    * Often exceedingly practical in ways that support their creative enterprises. (I can be.)
    * For some their home is an aestheyically soothing refuge, for others home is dank and depressing, prompting fantasies of beautiful places, a stimulant to envy. (Nah)
    * May have possessions they keep for a long time that are charged with symbolism and meaning. (Oh yes. Even the things that have no meaning, I will attach feeling to them, I will give them a story.)
    * Enviromentally sensitive react strongly to their surroundings; fussy and hard to please about new purchases. ( Not really.)
    * When less healthy, they take self-destructive risks or punish others by hurting themselves. (Not really. I am more inclined to hurt them, than myself.)
    * Some can be reckless and openly court disaster while others merely flirt with loss. (No, I am not reckless just for th sake of it.)
    * Sometimes the connection to One is extra strong. Fours with this subtype can harangue themselves in a Oneish way and then rebel with reckless behaviour. ( I did used to rebel often as a teenager, but not with reckless behaviour. I was just stubborn as fuck and I don't think anyone ever succeeded to make me something I didn't want to do in the first place. I am the stubborn person I know and I sometimes en annoy myself :D Now I just don't rebel anymore since I don't feel like I am below anything, so waste of energy.)
    * Some resist the need to make a living; may hobble themselves with mystery ailments that prevent them from having a "straight job". ( Nah)
    * Self- Preservation Fours can be mistaken for counterphobic Sixes. ( I don't know. I can be very nice, you know, yet I am difficult to deal with.)
    * Some Fours with this subtype struggle with their weight and body image as they relate to identity. Anorexia, overeating or obsessions about food are possible. ( True, I did struggle a lot with body issues and had eating disorders. I struggle A LOT less now, though.)

    INTIMATE FOURS

    * Intimate Fours love others in a deep way, and possess a sensitive, complex, poetic intelligence about matters of the heart. (True.)
    * This is a highly romantic subtype, visible in the realms of romantic poetry, the troubadour tradition and popular music about love, especially in the lyrics of confessional singers. (I can relate.)
    * Often stay friends with ex-lovers. (No lol)
    * A focus on aesthetics; some Intimate Fours are tasteful, flashy dressers. (I can be flashy, but I am more dark than flashy in my tastes).
    * Can harbor a fantasy of perfect union, a redemptive love that will heal the wound of being an unwanted outsider. (Guilty as fuck.)
    * Prone to jealousy and may be competitive in close relationships as well as generally; can feel like there is only so much love to go around (Yes.)
    * Want to be Number One in their beloved’s heart or the only person their partner has ever loved; could be jealous of their partner’s past relationships (True O.O)
    * A stronger connection to Two (Not sure. Though I can see a stronger connection to two than one.)
    * May be surprised to discover that their beloved has different needs; they assume mutuality of purpose and are unprepared to negotiate (I guess lol)
    * Also prone to professional envy and try to best others at work (True. I love competition just for the sake of it, but I understand it also goes deeper than that, though.)
    * May be unable to enjoy their successes without demeaning the achievements of others (I guess I do this, but it's subtle as fuck.)
    * Intimate Fours can resemble Eights just as romantic Intimate Eights can resemble Fours (Yes.)
    * Can believe that without someone to love they are nothing and life is not worth living (I can do just fine without, I don't go looking. It's when it hits me that it invades my whole reality.)
    * When in love, images of their partner fill the Four’s awareness and attention. The beloved is a muse, necessary to connect Fours to their own life force (Yes.)
    * May take no responsibility for their life until Mr. or Ms. Right comes along (Nah. I am always worry they will come to early and that I will be not ready, and then BOOM.. rejection :( I need to be satisfied with who I am first. Which never happens lol)
    * There can be a willful immaturity to this stance, a stubborn refusal to face facts no matter what the practical costs (Yes. I guess.)
    * Can be love addicts who lack the memory of being loved and believe they are condemned to search the world for something or someone to fill them up ( I guess.)
    * Some Intimate Fours act markedly seductive to stave off being rejected (Been guilty of this.)
    * May engineer rejection by picking unavailable or inappropriate people to become infatuated with (I'm really not sure :O )
    * A few have ambiguous, confused or exaggerated sexual identities or a chronic identity
    crisis around their sexuality (Hmm, nah.)

    SOCIAL FOURS
    * Healthy Social Fours are unusually independent, self-affirming and socially courageous (I am now.)
    * Willing to take unpopular stands, initiate innovative projects or create institutions that have humanistic or artistic purposes (I am willing to take unpopular stands no doubt, but I am usually not inclined to start things that have to do with bigger groups. I just prefer to do my own thing usually.)
    * They make good teachers especially of art, poetry, spirituality, realms of the heart and the inner life (I think I would make a horrible teacher.)
    * Can be idealistic, drawn to social causes, with a keen sense of justice. The connection to One is especially strong with this subtype (I am not really drawn to social causes, though.)
    * May play the role of the critical outsider, dissatisfied with the norm (Hmm, no)
    * Prone to shame because they compare themselves with the “normal” world around them, for deviating from imagined group norms (No shame about that.)
    * Highly self-critical although their critical voice often belongs to someone else (Yes, though I manage to tone it down sometimes now.)
    * To refute the voice’s criticisms, a Social Four may romanticize her defects or snobbishly counter-criticize the group (No.)
    * May seek status or feel driven to achieve to get revenge against those who once laughed at them (I do seek to get revenge by succeeding when it comes to what I love, but not through status.)
    * Cover their shame with charm (I cover shame in other ways.)
    * Social Fours with a Five wing can grow antisocial and depressed, bearing their shame
    in solitude, in tension to a group that they keep at a distance (No.)

    FOUR WITH A THREE WING

    • Fours with a Three wing can seem like Sevens. Can be cheerful, outgoing, with asense of humor and style (I think I could pass as a 7 due to that, yes. But it wouldn't take long, my triple reactive tritype would show pretty fast lol)
    • May be “counter depressive,” in that they stay busy and on-task to avoid getting bogged down in melancholy (I don't TRY to stay busy to avoid that, I just can't really fall into it. Even when I am sad, I feel like swallowing the whole world.)
    • Healthy Fours with this wing marry art and commerce; they are both creative and effective, intuitive and ambitious (I can see myself be that way, though I would probably be on and off.)
    • Generally more visual and kinesthetic and have a faster tempo of thought, speech and reaction (I actually am fast to think, speak aaand especially to react :D)
    • Often materialistic, can have elegant or expensive taste; could prize the rare (I only relate to having expensive taste.)
    • Might dress flashy – albeit in a color coordinated way – in contrast to Fours with a Five wing, who try to be socially invisible (Kind of)
    • Can be conscious of wearing a mask to hide their “true” deformed identity (Nah, I just make it look pretty. Ugly is the new pretty.)
    • Some are Three “wannabes”; they imitate Threes to pass in the “normal” world as high-functioning and well-adjusted citizens; underneath they feel like ETs (No.)
    • Can be exceptionally competitive, sometimes more so than Threes (Yes.)
    • Their pleasure in their own achievements may be tainted by jealousy or motivated by revenge (Ugh yes.)
    • When recognized for what they accomplish, they may feel celebrated for the wrong reasons or dismiss the recognition as not enough (Kind of.)
    • Fours with this wing can tend towards melodrama and flamboyance (I guess.)
    • Get lost in fraudulence, play the role of the artist or the authentic, unique one (No.)
    • Generally more conventional and less original than Fours with a Five wing (Fuck you haha)
    • May have bad taste but not know it (Well, maybe, though I don't care as long as it is my taste lol)

    FOUR WITH A FIVE WING

    • Fours with a Five wing are generally more introverted (I am both. I alternate between really extroverted and "Leave me the fuck alone")
    • When healthy they have a rich, complex creativity (Yes.)
    • Although somewhat intellectual, they have exceptional depth of feeling and insight (Yes - there a lot more intellectual people out there though, I'm sure lol)
    • May be multi-talented in ways that they take for granted (Maybe?)
    • Fours with this wing are often more original and idiosyncratic, unique to the point of eccentric (I am actually, but I can definitely appear more normal on the outside than I am on the inside. All it takes is to engage me and it comes out.)
    • Use thinking to suppress or dissociate from their feelings (No way. Drown me, heart.)
    • Often they are more auditory and kinesthetic and less consciously visual (I'd say I am more visual.)
    • They have a spiritual and aesthetic openness and may also have a marked need to pour themselves into creative or artistic pursuits (Yes.)
    • Try to use the strength of their minds to manage their emotional intensity (Nah.)
    • Some are loners who can seem enigmatic or hard to read (I always go back to being a loner. Hard tk read, I don't think I am. Though who knows.)
    • Externally reserved and internally resonant; when absorbed in a mood they can sit still and expressionless for long periods of time (hypnotic catalepsy) (I am not externally reserved. I do tend to fall into such moods.)
    • An “open or closed” quality; after suddenly breaking hours of silence, the Four won’t stop talking (Yes.)
    • Fours with this wing will sometimes polarize against their own Three wing, making Threeness a shadow that they indict in others (I have accused people of being fake, too that, too this before...)
    • Could see the world as dominated by trashy, materialistic values and pointless hyperactivity – things the Four secretly envies (Hell no, I don't envy those.)
    • Some are nondescript and try to be invisible. Consciously decide to venture into the world (No.)
    • Some are sedentary and, if not overweight, have no muscle tone (I am anything but sedentary.)
    • Especially prone to feeling alienated and depressed; could isolate themselves (I have isolated myself before, and I still do from time to time. I actually feel this is healthy for me so it's not because of depressing reasons.)
    • More likely to argue for their limitations or prove they can’t function in the normal world (Sometimes.)
    • Might ignore practical matters or unpleasant but necessary chores, citing the strength of their feelings as an excuse (Sometimes.)
    • Can be whiny or have an air of sullen, withdrawn disappointment (No.)
    • Prone to sulking and stubborn, passive-aggressive sadness; unusually humorless (No.)
    • Can inhabit a private world of pain and loss or be morbidly in love with death (No.)
    • Might have a well-developed eye for the grotesque and the gothic (Yes, but not morbidly in love with death.)
    • Like Sixes they can fear taking action; some complain of having little energy (No.)
    Animal thanked this post.

  7. #6

    @OrangeAppled, I see you type as a sp-4, and I was wondering if you relate to the risk-taking, reckless aspect that I see in some sp-4 descriptions, like this one below from the other instinct thread:

    I have plunged into dangerous situations, for example, taking physical risks, breaking laws or rules, taking chances with my money, engaging in promiscuity, or entering into unhealthy relationships.
    I don't really see that in myself, but I completely relate to the "long-suffering/enduring" aspect by Naranjo/Chestnut. Whenever I see the "reckless" aspect of it, I tend to think I'm so-4. I have a 4w5 sp/sx friend, and when he was unhealthy, he was actually like the description above in some instances, so I don't know...

    I found this recently posted by the Fauvres', and I'm not sure how true it is, but it says the sexual instinct is more "reckless." Wouldn't that make more sense since sx-4s can be viewed as 7s or 8s? And @Animal, I think you'd like to read this too since he touches on 4s vs 8s. I think you seem like such a sx-4, while it's your wing I can see going either way, but "I love my vanity" is making me think 3-wing lol. On another note, how is David Fauvre a 468 and sx-4? He's so passive in his videos that I would think he'd have a 9-fix.

    On another page we were discusing the nature of sx 4... So I am including my response here.

    Do 4s tend to mistype as Sx 4s at first?

    Yes, I have found this to often be true...beginning in my 1995 research on the Instincts. Then, 18 months later, in April of 1996, I had the good fortune to attend Naranjo's first Enneagram Intensive in the US in Bolder, Colorado.

    I had been teaching what had emerged in my findings in Instinctual Subtype workshops… and the sx 4s had completely related to the findings and their ability to have and call off ‘raw’ truthful and intense emotions.

    Naranjo had moved ‘Reckless’ from sp 4 to sx 4 saying that sx 4s were ‘emotionally reckless’ whereas the sp 4s were more ‘self-contained and enduring’. And, that the sx 4, when triggered, could have intense "out of control" emotions that could make even an 8 back down. ;))

    So, the sx 4’s ability for raw, outspoken emotional truth was confirmed by Naranjo’s teachings as well. Naranjo’s new teaching about sx 4 further validated what the sx 4s had shared in interviews for my research study and what they had revealed about their inner world.

    Jack Labanauskas interviewed me regarding my experience of Naranjo's Intensive for Enneagram Monthly in 1996. The article is titled ‘Reflections on Type’. There are a lot of gems about the types from Naranjo in that article. It is available from Enneagram Monthly and on Enneagram.net.

    In 1997, after two years of research on the 3 Enneagram Instinctual Types and 27 Subtypes, I shared my findings at the IEA Conference in Baltimore. In the presentation, after listing the study findings and describing the 27 combinations, I had 3 panels of exemplars for each instinct and all 9 types for each. In the interviews I asked each type to share what it meant to have their instinctual subtype.

    This served to explained what it felt like to have that defense strategy. And, why for example, the sx4 is ‘reckless’ and has the words of competition and hate as their dominant words. Research also yielded that sx 4s felt that ‘idolatry’ was key as well as they seek their ideal in every situation and tend to idolize intimates and then when hurt, can denigrate and diminish them…sharing that both feelings co exist.

    I laugh when sx 4s say I don’t use the word hate very often at all... and within minutes they will often say something like "Don't you hate it when ______ ". It is in their vocabulary, the water they swim in, so to speak.

    I see these 3 Instinctual Types and 27 Subtypes as biological imperatives. We as a society need the 27 combinations to support each family, group, tribe, community, culture, country and so on.

    So if your defense strategy is sx4, you must find the way you hate. The sx4 is mobilized by 'angry envy' as it is the fire to their engine. They are a dynamic force and often mistaken for 8s. In contrast, the intensity of the 8 is solid and cold like concrete... it is immovable and resistant. It is only when the 8 is over the top that you see fiery anger. For the most part, when fixated, 8s believe that revenge is best served cold. ;).

    The sx 4 is also a strong flavor. But they are liquid, emotional, mercurial and fiery. and as Naranjo said ... "The sx4 won't budge...even for the president, stating that they pay taxes and it is their road too." To contribute to the greater good, this defense strategy notices what is missing… even the tiniest thing will be noticed when absent. This is how we as a society can excel, become more individuated and possess the values that meet our ideals.

    Every society needs someone that won’t budge for the president…someone that will say the emperor has no clothes…. someone that will hold to their emotional truth and seek that which is exquisite. The sx 4 has that role in society. They are fierce, competitive and intense seekers.

    So, sx 4s will naturally feel disappointed when their defense strategy is on overdrive and is constantly finding what is missing in their lives… what is plain, ordinary and lacking in esthetics. The truth is that they find themselves the most painfully lacking. Their journey is to recognize when they are in fixation … and when to speak… and when their drive for beauty, perfection and emotional truth will not serve the greater good.

    On the panel in my 1997 presentation, David was the poster child exemplar for the sx 4. True to expressing the high side of the sx 4, he was willing to share the raw, unedited truth of what it meant to have sx 4 as his primary defense strategy. It was so compelling and revealing that sx4s came up to me and to us throughout the rest of the conference and shared how much it meant to them to know that there were other people that felt the same way they did… and struggled with the emotional intensity.

    They were relieved to have their gifts acknowledged and to understand more about their challenges. Until that panel, when they compared themselves to other 4s, they thought they were the 'bad' difficult, flawed, outspoken 4. When they had been with other 4s that did not have the sexual instinct they felt like they were too much… So they felt misunderstood by the other 4s and felt ashamed to mention their fiery intensity and emotional outbursts.

    The reason for this is that until then, nothing had been written about the sx 4’s fiery emotional intensity. From the first books written in the late 80s to those written in the early 90s, 4s were described more in terms of the so 4 and sp 4. In the chapters on 4s, they were described as sad, shy and withdrawing.

    This is what the sx 4 feels as well… at first…. but if the issue is about a mate or a strongly help passion, their fear of abandonment is triggered and they react with intense, angry emotions. We all know what happens if we feel intense angry emotions… imagine if this was your primary defense strategy. wink emoticon So, it was easy to see why sx 4s had concealed their fiery emotional reactivity. When triggered, they are feeling that they are not enough and all is lost. Afterward an outburst they feel intense shame. When they finally heard about this fierce intensity from other sx 4s they finally felt met and more understood.

    What I learned from the sx 4s is that on the high side, they are fiercely protective of intimates and when inflamed will more than go the distance in service of those to whom they are intimately attached.

    What was so key for me to learn in that first study was that the sx 4s felt that ‘everyone’ had the right to express thier individuality. And, if you have known and/or loved a sx 4, then you know how they can see someone’s uniqueness and individual gifts better than others. It is an amazing gift when they shine their light in someone’s direction. They see tiny nuances about people that most miss. They call off the beautiful and the ugly with the same ease. They are amazing troubadours that share their inner world and what makes us all human… and more specifically, our flaws and imperfections. They can make people feel truly seen. In fact, when coming from the high side, sx 4s are by far the most inclined to see what is innately human.
    OrangeAppled, Animal and NylonSmiles thanked this post.

  8. #7
    Type 4w3

    @mistakenforstranger
    I have always typed David Fauvre at social 4 and definitely with a 9 fix. I realize that sounds a bit presumptuous since he certainly knows enough enneagram to type himself, but that is the 'feel' I get from him. So I agree with you. He doesn't seem grr/rawr enough for an Sx 4... or an 8 fix..

    Although I'm a sweet little nugget with people that I feel comfortable with in fact, I am a bit standoffish with strangers maybe .. depending on my mood.. but when I do talk to someone, I am usually read as "sweet" until they piss me off or they know me well.

    Edit: @Sun Daeva says "Sweet but also blunt."


    I can be spiky. I guess it just depends on my mood.


    Naranjo had moved ‘Reckless’ from sp 4 to sx 4 saying that sx 4s were ‘emotionally reckless’ whereas the sp 4s were more ‘self-contained and enduring’. And, that the sx 4, when triggered, could have intense "out of control" emotions that could make even an 8 back down. ;))
    Well - my first love was an 8w7 Sp/Sx. He called it "The Look." All I had to do was look at him a certain way and he would immediately know what I wanted him to do and do it. He would tell his friends: "The Look. I better ____[do X]____"

    We got back in contact 18 years later. I wrote to him that I'd give him the look (in response to some comment)... and he wrote "I've grown antibodies to the look." I said "The look grew antibodies to your antibodies." He wrote back ".... The Look would do that."



    However, I do not have out of control emotions. Internally there is no end to my emotions and passion. But I process them alone or put them in my art. I don't make myself vulnerable to rejection. I always try to stay on top, so the more I care, the less I'm likely to show. If I know I won't be rejected - like with the 8 - then yes there will be a shit-show... but he was no better.. haha.



    With my husband I share my vulnerable emotions in a soft embarrassed voice and then ask him over and over if he finds me too needy, even though it's very minimal. I am not one to feel comfortable that way - I prefer getting power by withdrawing - but I promised myself I'd keep my heart and communication open with my husband. It can be hard at times..feeling naked and raw..but he is so good to me every time. If he was a jerk even once i would withdraw those shows of vulnerability possibly for a year. Luckily that is not in his character - which is why I married him. I can't open up to anyone else like that.



    When I refer to "vulnerable emotions" I mean that in a scenario where I feel rejected in some slight way, I tell him. In other relationships I didn't; I would withdraw/ reject first. I have no problem sharing my emotions about OTHER things. But not directly telling someone that they hurt me over some small thing. That took a lot of work for me.
    Last edited by Animal; 07-22-2016 at 04:31 PM.
    Daeva and mistakenforstranger thanked this post.

  9. #8

    Quote Originally Posted by mistakenforstranger View Post
    @OrangeAppled, I see you type as a sp-4, and I was wondering if you relate to the risk-taking, reckless aspect that I see in some sp-4 descriptions, like this one below from the other instinct thread:

    I don't really see that in myself, but I completely relate to the "long-suffering/enduring" aspect by Naranjo/Chestnut. Whenever I see the "reckless" aspect of it, I tend to think I'm so-4. I have a 4w5 sp/sx friend, and when he was unhealthy, he was actually like the description above in some instances, so I don't know...
    No, I don't relate to extreme recklessness. I think the enneagram institute site describes the sp's "recklessness" as more self-indulgent. They give an example of a disappointed sp 4 soothing their feelings with expensive cognac and a favorite film. That's the kind if thing I'd do after a disappointing job interview - I'd go shopping, then go home and have wine and some rich foods and watch/read/listen to something that was emotionally dramatic (to escape into a different emotion). I might stay up all night in this little fantasy world and then be late to work the next day. This sort of thing is not reckless so much as indulgent. If more extreme it does flirt with a self-destruction, but is more secretive and contained to the self than "acting out". The Gwyneth Paltrow character in Royal Tenebaums reminds me of this...she did all this impulsive stuff pretty secretively, and she managed to escape major repercussions.

    I also consider it a pseudo self-soothing, perhaps becoming self-medicating or self-harm when it gets more extreme (ie alcoholism, shopping addictions and debt, not being able to keep a job because of indulgences) . I think the ideas of eating disorders, cutting, addictions, etc, are probably spot on for very unhealthy sp 4s. I suspect they may be most prone to body dysmorphia.

    When younger I had a skin-picking problem. It sounds really weird/gross, but I would get hypnotized by picking at it til I'd bleed with big gashes on my face; I'd end up making it way worse (sometimes nothing was even there), creating more breakouts and scarring. I read about this concept of people who do that subconciously wanting to make themselves ugly to scare off people. It really clicked for me. I realized it was a form of self-harm, and it took me awhile to break the habit, and almost all of it was related to feelings of being "ugly" (inside as much as outside). I mean, I was basically cutting my face with my nails.

    I also thought my small mouth was "deformed" when I was younger, and so I'd hate all photos of myself. I this kind of body perception distortion is very sp 4. @NylonSmiles , probably a decent point in favor of Shirley Manson (a former cutter) being sx/sp, not so.

    I have also somewhat impulsively left jobs and/or moved. It doesnt FEEL reckless to me, but other people seem to put a lot more consideration into such decisions. I wonder how much of this is being INFP too.... I see potential and opportunity, often as an "escape", and I just run after it. I have had some financial repercussions for this...

    Any other physical risks I have taken seem due to more to naiveté and momentary, youthful bad judgment that I don't think characterize me or my overall choices in life. The stuff I described is the worst, and when most withdrawn, I really just hibernated in my room with books and music and fantasies.

    I found this recently posted by the Fauvres', and I'm not sure how true it is, but it says the sexual instinct is more "reckless." Wouldn't that make more sense since sx-4s can be viewed as 7s or 8s? And @Animal, I think you'd like to read this too since he touches on 4s vs 8s. I think you seem like such a sx-4, while it's your wing I can see going either way, but "I love my vanity" is making me think 3-wing lol. On another note, how is David Fauvre a 468 and sx-4? He's so passive in his videos that I would think he'd have a 9-fix.
    Thanks for sharing that! I have to say....that is the most I have related to the sx description ever.

    I will often speak of being temperamental and having, uh, outbursts, but I don't like to share specific details because frankly, it is embarrassing and I think people will think I am crazy. Vengefulness was a big part of my temper growing up, but it could be secretive, and I had a big sense of RIGHTEOUSNESS about it.

    As for speaking in terms of "hate", I have no problem admitting I do this. I like to express it even more strongly using loathe, despise, and abhor. The thing is - I see a LOT of 4s of all subtypes do this. I also see xxFPs speak this way a lot (my ESFP 7 sister speaks in terms of love/hate a lot). I agree that Morrissey is a great example of an so 4, and probably sx last, and he also makes a lot of strong hate/love statements. I mean, he seems pretty temperamental and spiteful still. Apparently a judge in a court case called him "truculent" too.

    Anyhow, when I was a kid, my family would joke that I hated everything. And my mom called me a "pistol whip" to describe my blunt and raw attitude at times. But it is also somewhat normal for everyone in my family to use hyperbole. I don't see myself as really dramatic or emotional because I have this stereotypically Latin family that is emotional, loud and dramatic. In comparision, I can seem reserved and rational much of the time. And indeed, despite my occasional outbursts, I was a well-behaved, shy, quiet child. My teachers would actually say I was an "angel".

    So growing up, some of my outbursts included
    - locking myself in the bathroom and pouring out / ruining my sister's expensive beauty products or squirting all the toothpaste out to clog the sink up
    - cutting up my sister's new clothes and leaving them for her to find ruined in her drawer
    - punching my sister in the face and breaking her glasses

    I think my sister was often the target because we had a little sibling rivalry. In arguments, I felt my mom often sided with my sister, and that they'd "gang" up on me, so I'd end up invalidated and misunderstood. My mom would say it's cuz she expected more from me, which was what my sister resented - people regard me as smarter, more responsible and successful, with more potential, etc. We both would insist the other was favored.

    As an adult, I admit I have done some unhinged stuff like hurl burritos at people's heads or throwing a chair. This is the sort of thing I have done every so many years. It's not a regular thing. It is something I kinda forget about too, honestly. In reading this post, I had to be honest with myself about the violent, venegful streak. I can be really, really patient and gentle, working with disabled kids, taking care of sick pets, being empathetic towards people in rough emotional times, etc, but I got criticized as cold and temperamental growing up, so I get sick of being defined by occasional negative moments and having all of my good points overlooked. I sort of decided to stop seeing myself as my family painted me (my sister would actually tell me I was an "ugly person" and that people didnt like me), and my self-esteem and social interactions improved tremendously. I noticed people didnt respond to me the way my family did.

    But pretty much only my family has seen this....not even anyone I've dated. Ex-boyfriends all said I am exceptionally patient, kind and gentle. I think I do worry about a point coming where my temperamental side rears it head and then having someone cut me off for it.

    The sp aspect for me is the containment of my feelings, which is why I think I'd finally burst. My very dramatic, older sister would always be very open about her feelings so that she was seen as being a more vulnerable person and given much more sympathy and understanding. In contrast, I'd get accused of having no feelings. I was very good as a kid, and I think I felt like this should and would be rewarded eventually. That's why I feel a very strong connection to 1.
    People in my life often think everything is very peachy for me all the time because I never speak of my problems publicly. Sometimes it takes me years to ever mention it. I have this feeling that if I "endure" and keep doing what is right, then I will be blessed for it. I do wonder how much my religous upbringing also influenced this.

    Anyway, maybe that will help others clarify some of this stuff for themselves. I start wondering if I am possibly an so 4 or sp/so (because I LOVE so 4 expressions, such as Morrissey's lyrics, and I definitely relate to them; instead of "whiny" I see emotional honesty coupled with humor and vulnerability), but then I consider my overall life and I see sp/sx as being the most obvious.
    Last edited by OrangeAppled; 07-22-2016 at 04:59 PM. Reason: Typo
    Rose for a Heart, Animal, NylonSmiles and 1 others thanked this post.

  10. #9
    Type 4w3

    Lol @OrangeAppled

    About your family seeing it but not your boyfriends - that is me as well. 100%

    Perhaps it's telling that when I saw "emotional explosions" my mind immediately went to relationships and not to anything else in my life....



    I don't relate to Sx descriptions that indicate there are huge emotional outbursts. That is probably what my parents imagine would go on in a relationship with me but with most men - aside from the REALLY emotional explosive ones (1w2 Sx and 8w7) I would not explode like that because it would show that I cared more than they did, which would be embarrassing and setting myself up for rejection. I would find a way to "get revenge" - ie withdrawing, showing him how much I don't care, and so forth; making him come after me. Really immature, I know..which is why i promised myself not to do it with my husband ( I can't anyway, his existence is basically bullshit repellent)


    2 of my exes wrote entire albums about me - about how evil , horrible, selfish, standoffish and fucked up I am, how I ate their heart out, etc. It was not about my "emotional explosions" ... it's about me blocking myself off... not letting them in... slapping them when they try to "save me" or say they need me.. etc. I often felt like I was idealized as a muse or someone who had so much talent but needed to be saved or fixed... or perhaps, the only person who could "understand them" or get to their hearts..... yet I didn't feel seen for who I was... although the only person I could blame for that was myself, since I was always hiding my fear of rejection behind withdrawing, acts of not caring, putting it in art instead and passing it off like my art matters more than they do (even though it's about them)... etc.
    Last edited by Animal; 07-22-2016 at 04:42 PM.

  11. #10

    I may decide to comment more later, but it's nice to read positive things about social Fours, when most other descriptions make me feel like I should be huddled in a corner in a room in some kind of institution.
    Rose for a Heart, Animal, NylonSmiles and 2 others thanked this post.


     
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