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This is a discussion on What Am I? within the What's my Enneagram type? forums, part of the Enneagram Personality Theory Forum category; Originally Posted by Dare Originally Posted by mayberaye I tend to try and take a much more positive outlook, focusing ...

  1. #11

    Quote Originally Posted by Dare View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mayberaye View Post
    I tend to try and take a much more positive outlook, focusing on what more I can still get out of the situation and what the best ways are to get myself out of the situation without ruining too much.
    Reference to stability, again --> 6

    A good example would be my current job -- I'm miserable there, but I need to pay the bills and any other job I could get with my current level of education would probably be about the same; I'm currently trying to wait things out and hold onto the fact that I have a few coworkers who are a joy to talk to and that helps me get thru the day.
    Reference to support --> 6

    Note how you brought up these core features of the 6 here unprompted. It's as though your mind naturally bends towards these themes. 'Catching yourself in the act' like this, especially if you do it repeatedly/over time, can be the best way of working out your type (better than relying on open-to-interpretation adjectives).

    Since 6 is supposed to be one of the possible wings for 7, maybe that could explain those common traits?
    It's possible (that was my initial guess) although I recommend nailing down core type first, independent of wing. Once you can see that clearly in yourself (including health range), only then add the wing and instinctual variant.

    FYI it's extremely common for 6s to mistype as 5s. I always recommend to anyone typing themselves as a 5 they take the time to thoroughly understand the 6, if only as a precaution.
    Hmmm... The six descriptions I'm reading do seem a little more extroverted/people-oriented than the 5s. A point in its favor.

    Phrasing these things I said as being about support amd security feels weird to me tho because I don't see myself as wanting either of these things? When I want other people around it's usually more for bouncing ideas off of and getting a fresh perspective... tho I guess I could see an argument that that's also a form of support? Just a more intellectually oriented one? I can definitely relate to some of the testimonials I found about needing to run every decision past friends, especially when anxious -- I usually just end up making up my own mind when I do this tho, I hate feeling like I'm letting other people make my choices for me.

    I'm not sure the descriptions of how a 6 responds to anxiety/stress describe me 100% tho. I think I have a tendency to avoid problems, sometimes to the point of seriously worrying people around me. And Im definitely not as focused or committed and find both of those things kind of scary. Like the idea of needing other people for support (not just because they're fun) is kinda terrifying. I can be spontaneous in the sense of scatterbrained, but I also overthink things too much sometimes amd end up not acting. And i can relate to the lack of confidence that 5s seem to have.


    So... Yeah i can still see an argument for multiple options here. It still feels like ot could be any of these three. Or even one I haven't considered yet.
    Last edited by mayberaye; 08-18-2019 at 11:41 AM.
    Dare thanked this post.

  2. #12

    It is interesting what you say.

    Also, thank you @Dare , for your analysis. I remember from other postings of yours that you know the Six well. I think you have several points. I'm beginning to doubt my findings.

    Especially the way you are trying to determine your type, @mayberaye , seems not that of a Five. Fives read books and rather not ask others for help. When you cannot see the people-unorientedness of the five in you, that's really going against the five. The five feels safe wrapped up in her thoughts about the dangerous outside. It is a very generalized subtle fear of everything moving. : ) Also the feeling of not belonging derives from this way of defining the self.

    I got to know two 6w5, both male, quiet well, and one 6w7, also male, very well since I know the Enneagram. You really don't fit into my idea of the 6w5. Their called the defenders after the Riso-Hudson School. A quiet popular 6w5 is this neoconservative pop-psychologist from Canada. I don't remember his name. Being around them I react with tension. They look like running on adrenaline, it's fear, they are very sensitive people, I think, because of the five influence maybe too... In my view when intellectually trained their the true erudites of all the personalitiy styles. You have a different kind of intelligence. You don't write anything about books. They're the book eaters. : )

    The 6w7... ? I don't see it in you either. The seven gives them a strong I gonna get what I want attitude despite their uncertainty, that I cannot detect in your questionnaire. But, yes, maybe this?

    One more type I'd recommend to look at more deeply is the nine. When Dare says that sixes mistype as fives often it is only the occidental, white male nine after the Ennea literature that does it more. It would explain why you see a lot of the most of the six in you when stressed.

    For the nine speaks your open, quiet friendliness that comes across to me.

    I must admit that I don't think of them as highly clever or intellectual because "I don't know" and "let's don't go into that deeper" are their mottos. But I might be a bit blinded from my five understanding of intelligence.

    The Enneagram institute's website has a very useful misidentification section. When you cannot decide after going through that you are either a six or a nine : )
    Last edited by Sengai; 08-18-2019 at 12:55 PM.

  3. #13

    Quote Originally Posted by Sengai View Post
    Especially the way you are trying to determine your type, @mayberaye , seems not that of a Five. When you cannot see the people- unorientedness of the five in you, that's really going against the five. The five feels safe wrapped up in her thoughts about the dangerous outside. It is a very generalized subtle fear of everything moving. : ) Also the feeling of not belonging derives from this way of defining the self.
    Yeah if withdrawing from people is core to the 5's personality then i think that disqualifies me. I have some social anxiety, but I've only ever been completely withdrawn around people who are super toxic and narcissistic, and that made me feel left out and isolated more than anything.

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  5. #14

    Quote Originally Posted by Sengai View Post
    It is interesting what you say.

    Also, thank you @Dare , for your analysis. I remember from other postings of yours that you know the Six well. I think you have several points. I'm beginning to doubt my findings.

    Especially the way you are trying to determine your type, [MENTION=549359]I got to know two 6w5, both male, quiet well, and one 6w7, also male, very well since I know the Enneagram. You really don't fit into my idea of the 6w5. Their called the defenders after the Riso-Hudson School. A quiet popular 6w5 is this neoconservative pop-psychologist from Canada. I don't remember his name. Being around them I react with tension. They look like running on adrenaline, it's fear, they are very sensitive people, I think, because of the five influence maybe too... In my view when intellectually trained their the true erudites of all the personalitiy styles. You have a different kind of intelligence. You don't write anything about books. They're the book eaters. : )

    The 6w7... ? I don't see it in you either. The seven gives them a strong I gonna get what I want attitude despite their uncertainty, that I cannot detect in your questionnaire. But, yes, maybe this?

    One more type I'd recommend to look at more deeply is the nine. When Dare says that sixes mistype as fives often it is only the occidental, white male nine after the Ennea literature that does it more. It would explain why you see a lot of the most of the six in you when stressed.

    For the nine speaks your open, quiet friendliness that comes across to me.

    I must admit that I don't think of them as highly clever or intellectual because "I don't know" and "let's don't go into that deeper" are their mottos. But I might be a bit blinded from my five understanding of intelligence.

    The Enneagram institute's website has a very useful misidentification section. When you cannot decide after going through that you are either a six or a nine : )
    It's funny that you mention books because being a bookworm was one of the ways I withdrew from the world when dealing with abuse as a kid. I still like fiction but I don't necessarily have the attention span for reading so much anymore.

    I have gotten 9 on some of the tests that I took but I feel like I might be a little too contrary to be a 9? I don't have a problem disagreeing with people as long as I can trust them not to lash out at me for the slightest "mistake." I know I tend to come off as super friendly and accepting to people - but honestly I'm not sure why and it kinda stresses me out because I have had a lot of pressure to "emotionally support" people in the past (I think I mentioned that in an earlier post) and I'm just not capable of doing that most of the time.

    I'm more like... defensively nice. It's partly treating people the way I want to be treated, partly not wanting to scare people off. It's something that's kind of taken a lot of practice and growing self confidence to achieve.
    Last edited by mayberaye; 08-18-2019 at 04:04 PM.

  6. #15

    Yes, I know. I completely understand. We cannot give from a depleted place. It is really okay to say no.

    You also mentioned counseling and the help of good people with your anxiety. I am glad you have found on that path. I was a child victim in an abusive relation with my father. It is still very difficult for me too to get everything together to heal.

    The nine maybe is not best understood as simply avoiding conflict and it is also not true that they are harmless because they have great passive resisting powers and when stressed have a tendency to lash out and blame others for their own neglicences, it is more precisely the way they do it. Typically when a problem arises they look somewhere else to something that induces more pleasant or maybe more characteristic just neutral feelings in order to reestablish their peace of mind, and on the other hand they let everything potentially dangerous lose clear shape.

    In my experience what people makes so fond of nines is that they sense that the nine is always a little bit in love with them, because the nine need to see the good in the other more clearly as the bad, what equals idealization. The shock for these loved ones comes when they realise that the nine loves everybody else too! : )

    I leave you find out the rest from the books.

  7. #16

    Quote Originally Posted by Sengai View Post
    The nine maybe is not best understood as simply avoiding conflict and it is also not true that they are harmless because they have great passive resisting powers and when stressed have a tendency to lash out and blame others for their own neglicences, it is more precisely the way they do it. Typically when a problem arises they look somewhere else to something that induces more pleasant or maybe more characteristic just neutral feelings in order to reestablish their peace of mind, and on the other hand they let everything potentially dangerous lose clear shape.
    See this sounds like me but it doesn't. My peace of mind is important sure but I would hate myself if I was the kind of person who put my own peace of mind ahead of being in touch with reality. That's literally the exact kind of thing I want to avoid doing/being.

    I'm getting a little frustrated because I'm feeling misunderstood here. It's possible the answers I gave weren't accurate because it's not something I've put a lot of thought into the way I've put thought into, say, MBTI. I might have to take another crack at it in a while.

  8. #17

    Quote Originally Posted by mayberaye View Post
    Phrasing these things I said as being about support amd security feels weird to me tho because I don't see myself as wanting either of these things?
    Fwiw, I only saw myself as an introvert who needed her alone time before I learned about enneagram/that I'm a 5. After reading about 5s my eyes were pried open: "do I reflexively/compulsively withdraw?" Then, after watching myself for exactly this: "oh, shit" (lol).

    I know of someone who had trouble typing himself, first thinking he was a 5 even though the 1 better suited, bc he couldn't see himself as an anger type. He eventually watched for it and began catching himself in the act of suppressing anger. Once he understood what that looks like in his behavior, it opened the door to him seeing more of this in himself (and confidently typing as a 1).

    I bring these examples up to show how enneagram can be used to better see into yourself. It can give you clues as to what to look for (which invariably ends up being things to 'work on' since you were blind to them before --> the real value of enneagram imo).

    If you're caught between deciding on 5 or 6 perhaps watch yourself for both, but be sure you understand them well enough to know what you're watching for (what classifies as that type's behavior -- it can be a little different to what you might expect/imagine from the outset).

    Following the 5 and 6 subforums a while might help (feel free to ask them/us specific questions there too :) -- it's fascinating how a random bunch of 5s will have the weirdest things in common (like we enjoy looking at things through various 'windows' and recently discovered we favor The Magician archetype). No doubt the 6s experience their own commonalities. This stuff is far from definitive for the purposes of typing (you really want to see core fears/desires), but getting an overall impression of the 6 vibe vs 5 vibe might be helpful. Mistypes stand out far more than I think they realize.

    I can definitely relate to some of the testimonials I found about needing to run every decision past friends, especially when anxious -- I usually just end up making up my own mind when I do this tho, I hate feeling like I'm letting other people make my choices for me.
    Support, anxiety & authority themes :)

    Unfortunately 6 descriptions aren't great -- they often paint a picture of someone very compliant. Neither my ISTJ 6 father nor my ENTP 6 friend (the two 6s I've known well) are pushovers, quite the opposite; they're stubborn as hell ('loyal' to their beliefs) and fixated on strength. For an example of someone you may know: Jordan Peterson strikes me as a healthy 6.

    ...i can relate to the lack of confidence that 5s seem to have.
    A perfect example of looking at something from the outside and seeing it differently than how it truly is :)

    It's 6s, in the center of the 5-6-7 head types, that have the highest fear and are most out of touch with themselves. People view 5s as especially frightened bc we withdraw, not realizing that same behavior could be viewed as defiance and/or a strategic move to better think/prepare. It's funny that it's 6s who are sometimes viewed as 8ish when the 5 is the one directly connected to the 8 (through 'line of integration' in case you're unaware).

    That's not to say there isn't variation among a type. There is going to be quite some difference between an INTP 592 sp/so and an INTJ 583 or 513 sx/sp. I personally have never been accused of lacking confidence, lol -- like 8s, I score very low in neuroticism (which can sicken a 6 if they're both unhealthy & score high in neuroticism themselves. I'm referring to neuroticism from The Big 5 personality test btw).

    So... Yeah i can still see an argument for multiple options here. It still feels like ot could be any of these three. Or even one I haven't considered yet.
    I encourage you to explore all three of the head types -- I suspect you called it correctly early on by putting yourself in this category :)


    @Sengai always a pleasure to cross paths <3 :) I agree 9 is the other big mistype with 5s. I didn't mention it bc it seems clear OP is a 'head type'. Presumably 9 is showing up in his/her enneagram tests either due to the line with 6 (assuming s/he's a 6) and/or bc it's in her/his tritype. Nothing OP has said (or the way s/he's said it) gives reason to consider 9 as core type imo.
    Last edited by Dare; 08-18-2019 at 05:20 PM.
    Sengai thanked this post.

  9. #18

    Quote Originally Posted by Dare View Post
    Fwiw, I only saw myself as an introvert who needed her alone time before I learned about enneagram/that I'm a 5. After reading about 5s my eyes were pried open: "do I reflexively/compulsively withdraw?" Then, after watching myself for exactly this: "oh, shit" (lol).

    I know of someone who had trouble typing himself, first thinking he was a 5 even though the 1 better suited, bc he couldn't see himself as an anger type. He eventually watched for it and began catching himself in the act of suppressing anger. Once he understood what that looks like in his behavior, it opened the door to him seeing more of this in himself (and confidently typing as a 1).

    I bring these examples up to show how enneagram can be used to better see into yourself. It can give you clues as to what to look for (which invariably ends up being things to 'work on' since you were blind to them before --> the real value of enneagram imo).
    Yeah I think this is what's drawing me toward trying to figure out my enneagram type rather than writing it off. If I don't know enough about this side of my personality to clearly type myself, then obviously it's worth investigating more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dare View Post
    If you're caught between deciding on 5 or 6 perhaps watch yourself for both, but be sure you understand them well enough to know what you're watching for (what classifies as that type's behavior -- it can be a little different to what you might expect/imagine from the outset).

    Following the 5 and 6 subforums a while might help (feel free to ask them/us specific questions there too :) -- it's fascinating how a random bunch of 5s will have the weirdest things in common (like we enjoy looking at things through various 'windows' and recently discovered we favor The Magician archetype). No doubt the 6s experience their own commonalities. This stuff is far from definitive for the purposes of typing (you really want to see core fears/desires), but getting an overall impression of the 6 vibe vs 5 vibe might be helpful. Mistypes stand out far more than I think they realize.
    This is a good idea and I think I'll give it a shot! Behavior is definitely a lot easier to observe and analyze than... abstract feelings that only exist inside my head?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dare View Post

    Unfortunately 6 descriptions aren't great -- they often paint a picture of someone very compliant. Neither my ISTJ 6 father nor my ENTP 6 friend (the two 6s I've known well) are pushovers, quite the opposite; they're stubborn as hell ('loyal' to their beliefs) and fixated on strength. For an example of someone you may know: Jordan Peterson strikes me as a healthy 6.
    That kind of reminds me of some of the descriptions I found of ENTPs that make us sound way more belligerent and internet-troll-esque than I think a lot of us are. Probably similar mistakes in terms of taking a single trait and exaggerating it into an inaccurate caricature.

    Can't say I'm enthusiastic about Jordan Peterson as a frame of reference though. Probably goes to show that being loyal to your beliefs isn't necessarily a desirable trait if your beliefs are dog shit garbage.........¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    Oh god I don't want to be that person.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dare View Post

    It's 6s, in the center of the 5-6-7 head types, that have the highest fear and are most out of touch with themselves. People view 5s as especially frightened bc we withdraw, not realizing that same behavior could be viewed as defiance and/or a strategic move to better think/prepare. It's funny that it's 6s who are sometimes viewed as 8ish when the 5 is the one directly connected to the 8 (through 'line of integration' in case you're unaware).

    That's not to say there isn't variation among a type. There is going to be quite some difference between an INTP 592 sp/so and an INTJ 583 or 513 sx/sp. I personally have never been accused of lacking confidence, lol -- like 8s, I score very low in neuroticism (which can sicken a 6 if they're both unhealthy & score high in neuroticism themselves. I'm referring to neuroticism from The Big 5 personality test btw).


    I encourage you to explore all three of the head types -- I suspect you called it correctly early on by putting yourself in this category :)
    Yeah I at least know myself well enough that I can rule out the non-head-types; I think pretty much anyone who knows me well would laugh me out of the room if i tried to argue otherwise :V

    What I said about lacking confidence might have been poorly worded -- the description I read of 5s mentioned tending to stick to things you know you're good at and withdraw from things you're not -- which if I'm interpreting it correctly *is* kind of a thing I do and get frustrated with myself about because it often clashes with my ENTP need for new experiences. Dunno if it's a comfort zone thing, a confidence thing, a perfectionist thing, or what, but I thought I might have detected something familiar there.
    Dare thanked this post.

  10. #19

    Okay.... I feel very called out by the Core Beliefs as listed in this thread. I read them out loud to my best friend and she started yelling "OMG THAT'S YOU".

    So that's a data point.

    I'm pretty solidly an Ambivert, so having an extroverted MBTI type (and one of the least extroverted extrovert types, to boot) in combination with an introverted-sounding Enneagram wouldn't exactly shock me.

    I do like people though. I get bored when I'm by myself and I inevitably end up reaching out to somebody to bounce ideas off of, but I wonder if this has less to do with extroversion as most people understand the term and more with... there's only so many possibilities that my own brain can come up with. It can be refreshing to talk to someone who has a different perspective, who can challenge the way I see things and put my own perspective in... perspective....

    But also other people can end up distracting me from things I actually want to do. Working on projects. Etc.
    Last edited by mayberaye; 08-18-2019 at 09:01 PM.

  11. #20

    @mayberaye

    If you’re trying to distinguish between head types, you might try looking at Naranjo’s profiles and his comparisons. They are dense, but just about the closest thing to a primary source that contemporary Enneagram has.

    Profiles:

    5, 6, 7

    (The Trait Structure and Defense Mechanisms sections are probably most pertinent.)

    Comparisons:

    6 vs 7: Type 7 is much more likely to be charming than type 6 and considerably more adaptable. The experience of anger, in the other hand, is more prominent in type 6. Most striking is the difference in regard to guilt as characteristic in the latter by its presence as it is in the former by its absence. Whereas type 6 has a hierarchical view of relations type 7 approaches people as equals and is little intimidated by authority. While type 7 is, in a broad sense of the word, a fear type, he is not prompt to anxiety as type 6, and fear is only a psychodynamic aspect behind compulsive gentleness.
    5 vs 6: May be confused in virtue of the schizoid features of type 5 as well as the sad moods of the more avoidant subtype. Also type 5 can be, as type 6, distrustful, yet the distrust is more avoidant than even in the avoidant or phobic type 6 who is more dependent, more affectionate and generous, both in terms of availability and in the quality of being good hosts. Also type 6 is comparatively more disciplined, and takes external authority more into account, both in terms of submissiveness to conventional or actual authority, and dominance towards those lower in the authority hierarchy.
    He did not write comparisons for 5 and 7, AFAIK, and that’s related to why I’m recommending him here (though to be fair I usually do recommend him). 5 and 7 are both head/fear types but they deal with the whole thing in dissimilar if not opposite ways, so it should (keyword, should) probably be hard to confuse them or relate to both as a possible core. Enough so that Naranjo seems not to have thought comparing them very necessary.

    5 does have a line to 7 and 7 to 5 - I like this explanation of the lines as well as a lot of their other resources - but the situations in which the relations between 5 and 7 would (per the "theory of movement") become apparent are specific and wouldn’t usually be enough to make them easily mistakable overall I would think.

    Despite that, I have met people (most of them ENTP) who initially type as 5 and later type as 7. I wrote some notes on my perceptions here. A common factor is that they were usually introduced to Enneagram through traditions/sites/etc. where the 5 profiles lean toward over-emphasizing the “seeking deep knowledge” aspect relative to the withdraw (isolate and/or detach) + observe + conserve strategy that is closer to being the essential quality of the 5 per the original system. Not that seeking deep knowledge isn’t generally true of 5s – the essential quality of the type still lends itself strongly to that - but “depth” is a relative term and many types can have a pronounced need to learn new things and seek out information, including 7s. It’s the why and to an extent the ways in which they are like to go about it that differ.

    Reading the work of an author that steers well clear of that “knowledge” interpretation might help you, as it makes the head types less easy to confuse.

    Profiles and opinions on 6 in particular vary a lot from author to author and person to person in sometimes contradictory ways which may or may not be true to the spirit of that type as initially described. Taking a peek at the early sources could similarly aid you in getting a handle on 6. There's also an interesting thread in the 6 forum that tried to distinguish between the fear/anxiety of type 6 and the kind of fearfulness or anxiousness that could present in any type, which would be very relevant to you if you've ever had clinical anxiety issues.


     
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