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This is a discussion on I've been typing ISTJ for years but... Thanks for any input! within the What's my personality type? forums, part of the Personality Cafe category; Originally Posted by grumpytiger And I don't really understand still because you didn't answer me yet as to what you ...

  1. #121

    Quote Originally Posted by grumpytiger View Post
    And I don't really understand still because you didn't answer me yet as to what you see as J in yourself, I said I was actually curious (genuinely curious). Or what was SJ in you when younger. If you know. I mean I don't expect you to give detailed answers, like if you don't know specific answers to these things specifically (regarding J and SJ things) and it's more just like you related to some parts of type profiles about ISTJ without really analysing J or SJ etc, just let me know about that.

    I cannot deny that figuring out my exact type (it's all subjective anyway) is not the be all end all for me and one of reasons I delayed responding. (Coupled with the fact that my computer died and I didn't have anything to work with other than my phone. Just bought a new computer) I don't say this to be unkind, but I've been in this type of discussion before and they just muddy the water for me. There is not a 100% conclusive way to decide and when I go down that path it just reintroduces confusion. However, I'll just say that when I go down that path I always end up back where I started and end up deciding once again that ISTJ seems to be the closest IMO. For what it's worth my daughter who knows a lot more about MBTI than I do thinks there is a strong possibility that I am an ISTP, but even she is not sure and says that those who are older are much harder to type and that I could very well be an ISTJ.

    I've been in and out of rabbit holes (in a manner of speaking) many times when it comes to pinning down my exact personality type. As I've mentioned already age (life experiences) plays a large role in how I present myself today. I am very different than I was in my younger years when I thought I knew so much more than I do now. I've had so many life experiences that have caused me to step back and take a closer look at my values, viewpoints, opinions, choices, etc. I don't like being wrong, don't like needing to apologize (but I do when I know I'm wrong) and that has prompted some of the changes in me as much as anything.

    It's really hard to explain in a manner that others would understand, but life experiences have caused me to see things much differently than I use to. Prompted me to approach others and life in general in a different manner than I use to. I am now more focused on trying to control only that which I have true power to impact and control and that is myself. I have found embracing that way of thinking to be quite liberating. I could go on and on, but I won't.

    I found this list and pretty much everything on it was true of me when I was younger. Most of it is still true of me today.

    https://introvertdear.com/news/istj-...ty-type-signs/
    Last edited by jamaix; 07-11-2019 at 12:20 PM.
    eatery125 thanked this post.

  2. #122

    hey @jamaix really appreciated that you got back to this. I looked at the link, and if you don't mind I'd like to ask you if any of the following fit you (now or when younger):

    (from the same link you quoted)


    "Sometime people describe introverts as “constantly daydreaming” or “living inside their minds.” That’s not you. Deeply in tune with your environment, there’s little that escapes your sharp eye (and it can be frustrating when others don’t notice the same obvious things as you do)."

    "In social situations, you can probably be found doing something useful, like clearing the table or serving drinks, as you feel more comfortable taking charge and getting something done than you do chatting up strangers."

    "You excel at analyzing your surroundings and arriving at a practical course of action."

    "Instead of flowery words and grand gestures, you show your love by working relentlessly to keep things running smoothly for those you care about."

    "For many ISTJs, the dependability of working with their own hands is also rewarding and is a natural choice for a career."

    "Career-wise, you’ve always been drawn to organizations that uphold rules, traditions, and standards, such as regulatory bodies, the military, and law offices. You may be found working in the fields of finance, project management, technical writing, or law enforcement, or running your own business."

    "You like things to be “by the book” and “the way they’ve always been.”"

    "You have little interest in discussing theoretical concepts and abstract ideas, nor do you care for imaginative flights of fancy. You’d rather talk about more practical matters, and you especially love explaining how to do something"

    "However you apply yourself, you believe in creating and enforcing order. The world has you to thank for making it a more orderly, organized, and effective place."


    Then from this link: https://introvertdear.com/news/thing...onality-hates/

    "Few things will make an INTJ angrier than a boss or authority figure that seems undeserving of their position. If they see a person in charge that does not appear to think through their actions, avoids making decisions, or only seems to have gotten where they are through blatant self-promotion, it will be very difficult for an INTJ to keep their mouth shut. Above all else, these thinkers value brilliance, self-confidence, and the ability to make firm, effective decisions."

    "Playing by the rules is not very important to INTJs. Give them a list of rules and they may endlessly question you, bend the rules, and even break them if they see a better way. INTJs are always innovating and tweaking. If they don’t have the opportunity to do that, they’ll be very, very, unhappy — and you’ll probably hear about it."

    "Obviously, routine tasks are not looking good for this personality type. INTJs are easily bored with process work and are not good at paper-pushing. They might, say, go to the gym, but only after they’ve created the best, most research-backed and efficient way of working out. Groceries, clothing, cooking, anything routine, will never be done the same way every day — if at all. Or they’ll delegate these tasks."

    "INTJs enjoy friendships and need people just as much as anyone else. However, getting people to play along with that goal is a source of endless frustration for this personality type. Analytical approaches are pretty much useless when trying to connect with another person, and INTJs usually come to know this through painful experience."

    "To hang out with an INTJ, you either need to have a plan or prepare to have one made for you. They’re not inclined to play anything by ear, and they hate uncoordinated activities. That said, their hatred for all unplanned things can result in master plans for the best day ever. Just make sure that you define what “the best day ever” is in advance — otherwise you might end up enrolled in a materials engineering course."

    "INTJs are constantly changing and growing, and they demand that others do the same. Improving processes and techniques usually morphs over time into a tireless obsession with improving themselves and their relationships. Growth is a must, and INTJs will be bored to death if they are forced to do the same things day in and day out."

    "Wait, aren’t INTJs considered uncompromising and closed-minded? Think again. INTJs are more able to change their opinions and beliefs than most other Myers-Briggs personality types. They just need to be faced with overwhelming evidence. Give them rational evidence that they should change, and they probably will."




    Reason for my asking: the ones I didn't quote from ISTJ I can definitely see as fitting you :)

    And for the INTJ one - you've indicated before that you like eccentricity, you dislike closed-mindedness and routine etc. At least, you definitely dislike closed-mindedness and you used to be very vocal about problems with authorities. So I'm curious how you relate to the quoted parts.

  3. #123

    @grumpytiger

    My response is bolded


    "Sometime people describe introverts as “constantly daydreaming” or “living inside their minds.” That’s not you. Deeply in tune with your environment, there’s little that escapes your sharp eye (and it can be frustrating when others don’t notice the same obvious things as you do)."

    I definitely relate to the above. I might appear to be totally inside my mind, but I am almost always completely aware of what is going on around me. Sometimes painfully so.


    "In social situations, you can probably be found doing something useful, like clearing the table or serving drinks, as you feel more comfortable taking charge and getting something done than you do chatting up strangers."


    Yes, this is fairly accurate. I definitely don't want to be in charge of the social situation, but taking responsibility for a particular task such as clearing tables or serving drinks would definitely be more to my liking than the pressure of small talk. Although I am quite capable of small talk when I have to, but I often find it draining.



    "You excel at analyzing your surroundings and arriving at a practical course of action."

    This is an interesting one and highly dependent upon what and who is involved. (if it mostly involves my immediate family then yes) I definitely analyze my surroundings in almost every situation I find myself in. However, I think a lot of that has to do with being an E5.

    What is interesting to me about this question is it reminds me of a recent conversation I had with my now grown and married daughter. As I've mentioned previously she leans towards thinking I'm an ISTP. I mentioned to her that I am not at all mechanically minded or a risk taker. She said, "bear in mind that most ISTPs are men and the mechanical aptitude part is a bit of a stereotype." She then went on to say that when looking back at her life as she was growing up it seemed to her that I always had a solution for just about every obstacle that came our way. She said I had a this is how we're going to do it approach. If one way didn't work she said I looked for another that would. As we talked about different things I realized she was right. Now bear in mind my husband is sometimes prone to having a "the sky is falling" doom and gloom reaction to unexpected obstacles. So I got use to looking for ways to solve the problems. Use to look for ways to reassure him that we've got this, we can handle it and there is bound to be a solution. (love him dearly, but he can be over-reactive at times)


    "Instead of flowery words and grand gestures, you show your love by working relentlessly to keep things running smoothly for those you care about."

    Another yes, but I'll follow with this caveat. I've learned that sometimes "flowery words" are needed. I learned throughoutthe years that words of affirmation and praise were important to my husband and daughter. I've worked on increasing my awareness, to look for opportunity's to genuinely incorporate more gratitude and praise. At one time I was very good at pointing out failures, mistakes, faults, etc., while overlooking and failing to acknowledge those things that were done well, those things that were worthy of praise. I've since learned to overlook minor faults, mistakes, failures, etc. I've learned to ask myself before speaking is this really that important to point out. Especially if there is not a pattern of bad behavior/habits.

    I may have mentioned already, but years ago my husband (who is not one to talk about his feelings much) came to me and said something along these lines, "sometime I feel like you think I don't do anything right at all. Is there anything at all you respect about me? Is there anything you think I do right?" He went on to say, "it might surprise you to know I am well respected at work, people seek out my advice and opinions." I was appalled that my behavior had made him feel this way. Appalled that he had been holding his hurt in for so long. I resolved to do better. I learned that each criticism was chipping away at his feelings of self worth, chipping away at his confidence. I realized that I was not building him up, but rather tearing him down. It was not my intention to do this at all, but due to my habit of pointing out failures while not acknowledgingsuccesses, not acknowledging those things he had done for me and the kids, that is exactly what I had done. That conversation became a turning point for me. Life beats people down enough, my husband certainly didn't need it from me.


    "For many ISTJs, the dependability of working with their own hands is also rewarding and is a natural choice for a career."

    I'm not exactly sure what they mean by this.


    "Career-wise, you’ve always been drawn to organizations that uphold rules, traditions, and standards, such as regulatory bodies, the military, and law offices. You may be found working in the fields of finance, project management, technical writing, or law enforcement, or running your own business."

    I worked outside the home until I was 28 years old, but I left regular employment once my daughter was born. (son was born 2 years later) Since then I've worked a few part time jobs, and started two small home based businesses. Prior to staying at home with my daughter I was an office manager. Took care of things like payroll, accounts payable/receivable, insurance,etc.
    After my daughter was born I worked various part time jobs. I worked for a couple of years as a tax preparer for H & R Block. Later I started a small lawn care/landscaping business that I ran from my home, plus I sell books online. So I don't know does that fit?


    "You like things to be “by the book” and “the way they’ve always been.”"

    That is highly dependent upon what we are talking about. I am definitely much more flexible now than I use to be. Although I would not describe myself at all as a person who throws caution to the wind. I am willing to try new things if there is reason to believe it will work, but I'm not likely to just do something different for the sake of doing something different.


    "You have little interest in discussing theoretical concepts and abstract ideas, nor do you care for imaginative flights of fancy. You’d rather talk about more practical matters, and you especially love explaining how to do something"

    I enjoy theoretical discussions if I can see a practical application. If I can connect them to something realistic. If I can connect them to a value or something that is important to me. If I can see absolutely no practical application I am unlikely to enjoy or seek out such discussions. Although I will point out that what may seem purely theoretical and impractical on the surface may actually have a practical application. But I do have to be able to see that application for it to interest me.


    "However you apply yourself, you believe in creating and enforcing order. The world has you to thank for making it a more orderly, organized, and effective place."

    I find this one a bit odd. I definitely seek a degree of order for myself, but I don't try to enforce it on others unless of course the disorder in their life will negatively impact me. Even then I will evaluate whether the cost of fighting that battle is worth the price I may have to pay. I mostly seek to control only that which I can control - myself.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

    "Few things will make an INTJ angrier than a boss or authority figure that seems undeserving of their position. If they see a person in charge that does not appear to think through their actions, avoids making decisions, or only seems to have gotten where they are through blatant self-promotion, it will be very difficult for an INTJ to keep their mouth shut. Above all else, these thinkers value brilliance, self-confidence, and the ability to make firm, effective decisions."

    I can relate and I definitely struggled to keep my mouth shut when younger. Occasionally still fight that battle in my head, but I'm much better at holding my tongue. Years ago I realized that I was much better at respecting those who would stand up to me. Those who cowered, lacked confidence, seemed unsure and indecisive, I tended to challenge. Even to this day I find that I respect more those who are confident, firm and decisive, even if they are not always right. Of course I am very impressed with those who are confident and realize that admitting to a mistake does not lessen one.

    "Playing by the rules is not very important to INTJs. Give them a list of rules and they may endlessly question you, bend the rules, and even break them if they see a better way. INTJs are always innovating and tweaking. If they don’t have the opportunity to do that, they’ll be very, very, unhappy — and you’ll probably hear about it."

    Not so much, but I do tend to question things that don't make sense to me or that seem illogical or inconsistent with other ideas presented. I relentlessly questioned when I was younger. Because we've always done it this way was not a good reason to me unless it made sense and I could see that it did. But I've never sought to bend rules just for the fun of it. Especially if I can see the logic in the rule.


    Going to call it quits here so as to not lose (hopefully) what I've worked on.
    grumpytiger thanked this post.

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  5. #124

    Hey @jamaix thanks for the well thought out reply. Are you up for finishing the second part sometime?

    If you don't mind me noting one thing - the criticism you worked on that was hurting your husband is very E1. But I guess you found a healthy approach. :) So maybe that makes you relate less to it. But that there was very typical E1 criticism stuff if you don't mind me saying that. I do think it makes sense that you have some E5 stuff, too. Regardless of whichever one is the dominant approach or whatever.

    As for the hands-on work: I think they just overcomplicated that sentence lol. It just means the ISTJs often like hands-on work. I dunno what your lawn care business was doing, did it involve such work? Bc that would be a good example for that sentence then.

    The enforcing of order bit is the Te supposedly.

    Mind me asking about one more thing: Have you got an example of a topic that seems purely theoretical and impractical on the surface but may have a practical application that you are able to see (so that you get interested in the topic)?

  6. #125

    @grumpytiger

    Going to try to avoid the captcha glitch. It seems to be worse when I use quotes. So I hope the way I structured this is not too difficult to follow.



    I still don't see E1. When I mentioned the corrections I made in my relationships I did not provide all details.

    The Op on the thread I linked below is a good example of a theoretical question (describing a situation that is unlikely to ever happen) that was very interesting to me. The thread was by one of my favorite PerC members. (she is an INTJ) What I found most intriguing was the reaction many had to the situation proposed. As I mentioned before I enjoy things that provide insight into the way people's minds work and how they process, how they think and react. I find it interesting to notice inconsistencies of thought (theirs as well as my own). I could also see some real life applications to the theoretical situation that was proposed.

    https://www.personalitycafe.com/crit...heir-will.html


    ROUTINE TASK -- Some of this I can relate to, but not all. I can be organized if not being organized will hurt or hinder me in a significant way. But paper pushing is definitely not my cup of tea. My personal files (insurance papers, life insurance, etc.) are in boxes and I tend to just dig when I need to find something. If it is something I find myself routinely digging for I will work harder to keep track of where I put it. I hate cooking, and usually look for the easiest route. My husband and I often eat out, but we are trying to curtail that lately as it is unhealthy. We are trying to be more conscious of what we eat.

    ENJOY FRIENDSHIP AND NEED PEOPLE -- Yes and no. Friendship (not just casual acquaintances) are a lot work and I seldom take anything beyond casual acquaintance. Obviously my family is an exception.

    Some honest personal assessments...I have come to the realization that I am not one who does a very good job of keeping and maintaining friendships. I tend to unintentionally neglect them. If you don't water and take care of a flower consistently they often flounder and eventually die, that's kind of what happens with most friendships I have had in my life. Most want more of a close friendship/relationship than I give them. I tend to be stingy with my time, needing a lot of alone time. Plus, I seldom if ever initiate when it comes to hanging out.

    However, I do realize that I should need people more, but I think it would be selfish for me to pursue friendships for my own personal benefit if I am not willing to water and feed them. True friendships need two or more people equally invested in the friendship.

    HANGING OUT WITH AN INTJ YOU NEED TO HAVE A PLAN OR BE PREPARED TO HAVE ONE MADE FOR YOU --
    This is not really me. If it is just an evening with the goal of spending time together I can be pretty flexible.

    CONSTANTLY CHANGING AND GROWING AND DEMAND THAT OTHERS DO THE SAME --
    Again, this is only partially me. I feel like I am constantly evaluating what I believe, why I believe it, evaluating biases, learning better approaches, etc. BUT I don't demand that others do the same. Although I do enjoy talking to those who can and will discuss things along these lines.

    UNCOMPROMISING AND CLOSE MINDED -- Most viewpoints that I strongly hold have been evaluated many times, but I always keep my eyes and ears open. I am usually willing to listen to something new (things that I haven't previously already evaluated) that there is reason to believe may have merit. But I am not easily influenced and appeals to emotion are very ineffective. I agree that it takes very convincing evidence to move me. BUT I can and have changed strongly held viewpoints.
    grumpytiger thanked this post.

  7. #126

    @jamaix

    Thanks for the response.

    As for E1 - there was an example you gave earlier, about critically assessing your kids's drawings. I would imagine that sortof thing is what your husband was feeling too (before you fixed the problem, I mean, I'm not saying you are still critical to that degree). How do you not see that as E1 but E5 rather? I'm interested.

    Where do you see real life applications to the theoretical situation as described in the thread you linked?

  8. #127

    @grumpytiger

    As I understand Enneagram it isn't about identifying traits, it is about pinpointing our basic fears and motivations. I relate far more to the fears and motivations of Type 5 than I do to type 1.

    I copied from the website I linked below the description of E1 as well as E5 and E8. I copied E8 because if I were to pick the 2nd most likely for me it would be 8.

    Type 1 – The fear of being evil or corrupt.
    Type 1s strive to be morally upstanding and virtuous in the face of external corruption. Their pervasive, underlying fear is that they themselves are corrupt, and they must act in a virtuous way in order to prove this fear wrong. Their prime motivation in life is their own sense of integrity. They are constantly aiming to move away from corruption and towards virtue, or the greater good.


    Type 5 – The fear of being helpless and inadequate.
    Type 5s strive to become as knowledgeable and competent as possible in all of their undertakings. Their pervasive, underlying fear is of being helpless, overwhelmed and incapable of dealing with the world around them. Therefore, they must learn as much as they can and master as much as they can, in order to reassure themselves that they are competent and capable. They are constantly aiming to move away from ignorance and ambiguity, and toward knowledge and understanding.


    Type 8 – The fear of being harmed or controlled by others.
    Type 8s strive to become strong, independent and self-directed. Their pervasive, underlying fear is of being violated, betrayed or controlled while at the mercy of others. They feel secure and okay so long as they are in control of their circumstances. They are constantly aiming to move away from external limitations and toward self-sufficiency and power.


    https://thoughtcatalog.com/heidi-pri...ype-read-this/
    grumpytiger thanked this post.

  9. #128

    @jamaix I see what you mean. How do you link the criticisms with type 5 motivations here? Such as the one example I referred to.

    Still interested in where you see real life applications to the theoretical situation as described in the thread you linked. Do you have any examples for such?

  10. #129

    @jamaix I saw your post, not sure why you deleted it, but if you felt it was sharing too many private details I understand. So I'm not going to comment on the Enneagram part.

    As for the thread posts you referred to (I assume this part isn't private? Let me know if it is), heh we have different ideas on what's practical or a real life application. Don't take this as criticism btw. Let me know if I misunderstood though as to the below comments.

    I.e. the first post says "explore theoretical frameworks and assumptions, challenge preconceptions" & "Most people have got too caught up on the limitations of reality". The other one says "I am trying to flush out what people really want".

    I guess I would say the latter is a practical real life application if it's about what people want about a specific tangible thing. That's not the case in that thread. I understand if by the former one you mean that changing people's thinking is like giving them better education which eventually somehow will have better results, but it's a pretty indirect link to me.
    jamaix thanked this post.

  11. #130

    @grumpytiger

    I don't know your background (worldview) but I am a Christian and I saw a connection that someone who isn't may not see. However, I didn't really want to spell it out in the thread as I'm not looking to debate anyone on the subject. It was applicable to my world view and I realize not all will see it the way I did. Especially those who do not share my worldview.

    The INTJ who made the thread is an atheist (or at least was at the time, I'm not sure of her current status as the thread was created almost 3 years ago. But definitely not a militant atheist). She stated the same connection I made pretty clearly at the end of her thread. Post # 235 ( I should have mentioned this one)
    Anyway it is not really important that everyone be able to see that connection. I just found it interesting to observe people's reactions to the idea of having a world where nothing bad could ever happen due to an absence of the ability to make ones own choices. Without choice no one could ever make bad decision or reap the consequences of them.


    I deleted the Enneagram information because I decided I did not want it permanently on a public forum. (TMI)


 
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