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This is a discussion on Dual INTP/ INTJ within the What's my personality type? forums, part of the Personality Cafe category; Originally Posted by Drunk Parrot @ Octowave you're confusing Te/Ti and Ne/Ni, which is probably not your fault considering there ...

  1. #21

    Quote Originally Posted by Drunk Parrot View Post
    @Octowave you're confusing Te/Ti and Ne/Ni, which is probably not your fault considering there is a lot of misinformation.

    Te believes a decision should be made with efficiency and quickly looks for external data to confirm the efficient conclusion. For example, 90% of men who are accused of hitting women are guilty. When a man is accused, the efficient answer is to conclude he is guilty. Te tries to raise it's own standards, to where it isn't that simplified. So 50% are obviously guilty, 40% require 3 days of research, and 10% are innocent. Because of these new standards, when a man is accused, from now on, the protocol is to do 3 days of research. Te notices that this system can be improved, however, so etc....
    Many Te users are highly intelligent and creative. The core focus of their improvements, however, is about improving an automated standard. When a decision needs to be made, Te prefers to look to experts, prior decisions, and current systems to efficiently make a decision and move on. Te can be very beneficial in large systems where we don't have time to research every nuance.

    Ti sees each case as unique, requiring its own set of research criteria. Instead of 90% are guilty, Ti challenges that and wonders what data backs that up. While Te adds 3 days mandatory research, Ti says there isn't a limit to what can be considered, as Ti prefers a thorough analysis, of that current system. After several weeks of research, Ti concludes that 50% of the accused are likely guilty, based on the evidence. However, with the other 50%, there isn't enough evidence to conclude that any of them are either guilty or not guilty. Ti proposes that an investment team is created to look at each individual case to see what amount of research is needed.

    Both Te and Ti users can relate to both of those up there, but preferences come through. As an employee, I'm fully capable of working in a system with automated decisions in place. I like to work efficiently, but that is more so because my personal thoughts prefer it. Te users tend to be more clustered, in terms of conclusions, while Ti is all over the place.

    Getting tired of typing, so quick Ni vs Ne. Ni is deductive. It takes potential conclusions and selects the one that is most clear. Ni is much more of a "a-ha" moment than Ne, as Ni waits for the revelation to occur. Ne is inductive. I would describe it more as a "ripple effect". Ne considers A which connects to B, which connects to C, all the way to Q. From there, Ne sees a parallel between D, H, and M and concludes those 3 are related. Ni sees that parallel and concludes "D is what I'm looking for". The fun thing about Ni vs Ne accuracy is neither are guaranteed to ever be correct. Ni sees D and gets fixated on D. Ne, however, proposes D, H, and M as the likely answers. Ne waits for feedback, and then concludes H is the answer. Te and Ti are then used to uncover information to prove either D or H.
    If you'd come here two days ago, I could have saved myself the irritation of trying to get a general applicable definition out of everyone I talked to. I literally started an INTp post to understand Ti . I don't use it, but now I'm somehow an expert.

  2. #22

    Quote Originally Posted by Octowave View Post
    If you'd come here two days ago, I could have saved myself the irritation of trying to get a general applicable definition out of everyone I talked to. I literally started an INTp post to understand Ti . I don't use it, but now I'm somehow an expert.
    The easy answer is Te defers to experts, past judgments, current systems, etc as a way to make a conclusion. Ti, however, prefers to let its own thoughts make the conclusion. The reason many thinkers get confused is because we do both. For me, though, I hold my own analysis as more important than any experts, unless the experts agree. If I notice most experts disagree, I'll take another look at my analysis to see where the discrepancy is. Te users can be quite brilliant and they usually have a diverse understanding of what authority says on a subject. But that doesn't mean they don't ever think for themselves. Hell, many INTJs, on here, would consider themselves to be experts.

    People who initially type themselves as INTx, tend to be type 5s, I've noticed. Have you looked into Enneagram?

  3. #23

    Quote Originally Posted by Drunk Parrot View Post
    The easy answer is Te defers to experts, past judgments, current systems, etc as a way to make a conclusion. Ti, however, prefers to let its own thoughts make the conclusion. The reason many thinkers get confused is because we do both. For me, though, I hold my own analysis as more important than any experts, unless the experts agree. If I notice most experts disagree, I'll take another look at my analysis to see where the discrepancy is. Te users can be quite brilliant and they usually have a diverse understanding of what authority says on a subject. But that doesn't mean they don't ever think for themselves. Hell, many INTJs, on here, would consider themselves to be experts.

    People who initially type themselves as INTx, tend to be type 5s, I've noticed. Have you looked into Enneagram?
    Yes, I looked at it and I know I'm type 5. They say type 5 is interesting as it has wings 5w4 and 5w6.

    "INTJs who were abused, mistreated, or whose Fi was otherwise deeply affected may also develop strong interests in F matters, especially understanding their own personal past. They may spend significant time trying to analyze their childhood, trying to make sense of what happened and understand who they are as individuals (Fi). In such INTJs, one can often trace a connection between their Fi feelings and their Te objectives. In many cases, the things that are most disturbing to INTJs, both to their Fi and Ni, are the things they hope to understand and remedy. So it is not merely shortcomings in rational systems (Te) that motivate INTJs, but also negative experiences or feelings (Fi). The degree to which Fi plays a role in a given INTJs’ concerns and interests will vary according to his or her experiences (This may also impact whether an INTJ scores as an Enneagram 5w6 (lower Fi involvement) or 5w4 (higher Fi involvement))."

    This makes me a 5w6. This actually made me really skeptical about my type but once I realized this was a possibility I knew this was right.

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  5. #24
    ENTP - The Visionaries

    Quote Originally Posted by Octowave View Post
    In Jungian Standards, Ti makes knowledge a means to an end as it build up knowledge through classifications and understandings that it has and is focused on objective knowledge. Te uses knowledge to help achieve goals and organize the environment to a standard.

    Not sure about Ni/Ne though.
    Mm according to Michael Pierce Ti uses knowledge as an end in and of itself. Te uses knowledge as a means to an end. His example is Isaac Newton who discovered calculus as a means to understanding gravity better. He also says INTJs in particular will have many gaps in their knowledge and it will not be refined, using only what's necessary to achieve the goal. In his example he describes how Newton's version of calculus was unrefined and not very clean, and that job was left for others to do. Therefore, for an INTJ knowledge is merely a means. The INTP, on the other hand, learns knowledge for its own sake. They would probably get OCD about moving on from a topic unfinished, unlike the INTJ.

    Going on... in Pierce's description of the INTJ he mentions that the INTJ is more like a mystic than a logician. Many of their eureka moments come out of thin air. Therefore, there's more of a mysterious element about them than a logical element. Which makes sense, because their dominant function is Ni.
    CopperrHareV thanked this post.

  6. #25

    @Octowave 5w4 and 5w6 do not have anything to do with Fi level. Instead, 5w6 gravitates towards being dependable on others, after taking care of person needs, while 5w4 is a lone wolf.

    *Fi has nothing to do with the level of emotion you have. At age 26, I have pretty decent Fe judgment, despite rarely being emotional.

  7. #26

    Quote Originally Posted by bluefox91 View Post
    Mm according to Michael Pierce Ti uses knowledge as an end in and of itself. Te uses knowledge as a means to an end. His example is Isaac Newton who discovered calculus as a means to understanding gravity better. He also says INTJs in particular will have many gaps in their knowledge and it will not be refined, using only what's necessary to achieve the goal. In his example he describes how Newton's version of calculus was unrefined and not very clean, and that job was left for others to do. Therefore, for an INTJ knowledge is merely a means. The INTP, on the other hand, learns knowledge for its own sake. They would probably get OCD about moving on from a topic unfinished, unlike the INTJ.

    Going on... in Pierce's description of the INTJ he mentions that the INTJ is more like a mystic than a logician. Many of their eureka moments come out of thin air. Therefore, there's more of a mysterious element about them than a logical element. Which makes sense, because their dominant function is Ni.
    Well this I already know. I'm not sure if your "Mm" was out of skepticism our out of general satisfaction with this thread. If out of skepticism, take the contrast and subjective opinions of many with a grain of salt. The issue revolves around the broad terms that make up these abstract functions. I recently had this issue with a bunch of INTP's who explained in their own subjective way what Ti felt like as an experiment. Since Ti is relatively based on the internal thinking of the user and it being a dominant function in the INTP, I as a person who uses Te and wanted credible sources didn't like so many "experts" on the subject having contrasting statements on the same thing. It's best if you look at sights that give over arching themes and examples for reference and then ask others what its like

    While Micheal Pierce constantly apologizes for applying is own subjective view in his videos,, they are very comprehensible and enlightening. I'm actually quite the fan of his work.

  8. #27
    ENTP - The Visionaries

    Quote Originally Posted by Octowave View Post
    Well this I already know. I'm not sure if your "Mm" was out of skepticism our out of general satisfaction with this thread. If out of skepticism, take the contrast and subjective opinions of many with a grain of salt. The issue revolves around the broad terms that make up these abstract functions. I recently had this issue with a bunch of INTP's who explained in their own subjective way what Ti felt like as an experiment. Since Ti is relatively based on the internal thinking of the user and it being a dominant function in the INTP, I as a person who uses Te and wanted credible sources didn't like so many "experts" on the subject having contrasting statements on the same thing. It's best if you look at sights that give over arching themes and examples for reference and then ask others what its like

    While Micheal Pierce constantly apologizes for applying is own subjective view in his videos,, they are very comprehensible and enlightening. I'm actually quite the fan of his work.
    I constantly start with mmm or mmhmmm at the start of my post. You can prolly find quite a few if you look at my post history. Usually it means I found a topic I'm interested in. Uh I can see how a Te user could get annoyed by the lack of harmony in responses by those INTPs. I'm going to use Michael Pierce again, he said that Te users essentially trust the conclusions of experts as a means to gain a shortcut on a conclusion. If the experts don't have unity on a conclusion then the experts are essentially useless. That said it's not surprising INTPs would have different views on Ti - seeing as how it's a subjective experience, so it most likely varies from person to person. Personally I use resources such as Michael Pierce, because I'm too lazy to interpret the jungian material on my own. I've tried, and it's pretty difficult... it feels like the source material is written in another language. So even if I wanted to have my own perspective on it, it would be nearly impossible.
    CopperrHareV thanked this post.

  9. #28

    Quote Originally Posted by Drunk Parrot View Post
    @Octowave 5w4 and 5w6 do not have anything to do with Fi level. Instead, 5w6 gravitates towards being dependable on others, after taking care of person needs, while 5w4 is a lone wolf.

    *Fi has nothing to do with the level of emotion you have. At age 26, I have pretty decent Fe judgment, despite rarely being emotional.
    I understand that the Ennegram and the Myers Briggs system are unrelated. I received that information from INTJ vs. INTP: Type Differences. I may have misinterpreted it. The statement doesn't draw parallel but instead explains that the elements that may cause someone to become a five mingled in with the INTj way of thinking can result in a 5w6 or 5w4 based on those factors and how they are played out. It is not a rule, but simply an observation of the article's author.


     
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