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This is a discussion on Maybe's Socionics Type within the What's my Socionics type? forums, part of the Socionics Forum category; @ aestrivex @ LeaT @ Swordsman of Mana What do you think of SEE for me - just wondering? I'm ...

  1. #21

    @aestrivex @LeaT @Swordsman of Mana

    What do you think of SEE for me - just wondering? I'm underlying the things that apply.

    SEEs are active, energetic, and assiduous individuals who try to apply their energy and initiative to worldly tasks. They may often be natural leaders who do not hesitate to take the initiative in any endeavor, and possess the ability to motivate others into levels of greater activity and determination.
    Exactly how I operate IRL.
    They may, even moreso than SLEs, adopt a strategy of solving problems through sheer force of will rather than depth of strategy or insight.
    Not sure, but I think this can be the case... I think pretty well on my feet.

    SEEs may have an unerringly proactive, real-world focus; their ambitions are usually centered around furthering some real world cause or doing some good in society rather than compulsive power-seeking.
    This is actually true. I don't seek power in society. To me, power is *autonomy.* If someone tries to overpower or control me that's not okay, and they won't get very far - but as long as I am in control I don't feel the need to assert my power and gain more power. Hwever I am *always* aiming for a real-world cause. Even studying socionics, mbti and enneagram is primarily for my characters & book, though I felt I need to understand myself first, to do this well. Everything I do is for my goals. I want to be rich for the sake of my autonomy & personal needs (like my very expensive illness & medications that I need to survive) but I don't care about moving up the social ladder or that kind of power.

    They can be shrewd, tactful, and sensitive negotiators and often apply their energy to the arena of persuading, activating, and motivating others.
    I've motivated others a lot in real life, usually by doing what I do and they learn from it. Shrewd, tactful??? Not sure about that. I'm fairly tactless at times, and I don't think I'm shrewd. Although if you cross me you're done. For instance when I was running an apartment, if a roommate refused to pay or tried to undermine me, they would be lucky if they even got a warning before getting kicked out - which shocked them, because I seem so nice and sweet otherwise.

    SEEs are typically extroverts in every sense of the word. They are socially spontaneous, hyperactive, engaging, and enthusiastic. They may be predominantly oriented towards parties or other social gatherings, and may frequently and compulsively seek out new acquaintances, stimuli, or experiences.

    Meh, I spend a lot of time by myself & in nature, and I like that. I prefer old friends to new acquaintances. I am engaging and sometimes spontaneous but I don't think I'm hyperactive.

    They often seek to augment the depth or intensity of their involvement in any affair -- including but not limited to exerting their emotional and physical energy. They may periodically seek out new stories, gadgets, media, or other things to obsess themselves over.
    Blush, I can get pretty obsessed with stories, media, etc. (Enneagram also became an obsession for example.)
    Intensity - yesyesyesyeess. "If it's not worth doing in excess it's not worth doing at all!!!"

    Often they direct their energies to the sphere of social relations, in which they can exhibit a sense of obsessive attachment, intimacy, or closeness with others, sometimes leading contacts to feel smothered or uncomfortable due to a lack of emotional space. They may go about developing close relationships with a variety of acquaintances, effectively developing widespread social networks with a wide range of close contacts.
    Hmm, not sure, maybe. I can get pretty emotionally intense... but I need a lot of time to myself, too.

    SEE are sensitive to the physical stimuli around them and may seek to overload themselves with the experience of the moment. They may tend towards materialistic lifestyles, sporting large collections of various kinds of gadgets or media. They adapt quickly to the changing needs of their environment and may shift quickly from hedonistic indolence to a state of vigor and vitality.

    I am sensitive to physical stimuli.
    Overload with experience of the moment? Maybe at times.
    Materialistic - not so much, although I do have a lot of stuff.... but my stuff is mostly "useful."
    Adapt - yeah.
    The bolded - yes, ridiculously so.

    They can often appear to act in a sudden, impulsive, uncontrolled, and confused fashion.
    Lol, I have no idea how i appear but I don't think I've been called "confused" - I'm pretty focused. People who know me well would certainly call me impulsive, and usually do.



  2. #22

    " SEEs face no difficulty when undertaking activities that require focused attention on small details of their surroundings; yet they are as likely to overlook such details when those are unimportant for the goals they are pursuing at the moment." - one example of what I mean. My former SEE boss was very able to spot physical details, and act on them, when they concerned something he saw as important to his goals. On the other hand, my first and only experience of being in a car that ran out of fuel while being driven was with him, in a car that he was driving, in the context of a business trip. He was so focused on the business aspects of the trip that he did not even think of getting gas, and did not notice the meter in the panel.
    Precisely. I have trouble doing more than one thing at a time.

  3. #23

    Maybe, maybe.

    It is not the most outlandish of possibilities; it is at any rate an Fi valuing type. The character of SEEs is certainly as industrious as you are describing yourself, but it is not so morally firm or steadfast as the way I interpreted your early description of yourself. I am not particularly inclined to prefer it over ESI.
    Swordsman of Mana and Animal thanked this post.

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  5. #24

    @aestrivex - I appreciate the feedback. I will look into this further. At this point I'm seeing that I need to learn what the quadras are, and how each function operates in socionics.

  6. #25

    @Maybe
    you strike me as too introspective and fantasy oriented to be Se dom. SEE is said to take a lot of action but not do much reflecting. ESI works nicely in my opinion (perhaps ESI-Se)



    Animal thanked this post.

  7. #26

    Animal,

    after interacting with you a bit more and seeing more sides of you, I am inclined to see you as IEE. This typing has a few loose ends but it gathers up a lot of data and makes sense of it. While you describe yourself as a strong-willed person with an inner strength of spirit, I think this point is overemphasized and poorly interpreted, and I also think that you are very confused about yourself.

    What is true, is that you have strength of moral fiber. I feel you have shown this in a number of ways -- among them the convincing demonstrations in the enneagram forum where you "refuse" to fight with others and instead force yourself to interpret others' comments constructively. The observations about good faith, stand tall.

    Another observation that I did not pay much attention to before, is your self-reporting of being highly accommodating and highly socially active, indeed having a carefree and "wild" youth. Yet you also show this clear moral courage. Whereas previously I had not considered this point a lot, I realized this could point to IEE -- with the moral courage being more situational than was let on.


    As mentioned before, I think you are very confused about yourself. I think you are a 3, and not an 8 (or a 1 or 4 or the other things I previously suggested). The principal observation is that most of your typing as 8 relies on explanations the importance of your strength to you and being in control. However, in the contexts you are describing them, this strength is strength of character and willpower of the self, not strength of impactful action regarding others. These are 3ish themes -- a slant on self-achievement. You also described lust as having to do with sexual desire, and especially an exhibitionistic expression of it in your youth. You also mentioned bigness, but again this bigness had to do with self identification (willpower) and not worldly circumstances (moving boulders to get things done).

    Coming with the 3ish themes is a persistent and unshakeable ego identification with the strength and character of 8. I think I realized this was there to begin with -- that there was something "very wrong" with your descriptions of typing at 8, but I did not realize its depth. This is an image triad issue.


    It is quite odd to think of an IEE with such an orientation towards ambition and self-improvement. But I am strongly convinced of the quadra values of good faith judgment, and in passing on these nonfundamental (non quadra values related) oddities, I think the pieces fit into place.
    Sina and Animal thanked this post.

  8. #27

    @aestrivex - I really do appreciate your observations. I agree that I am IEE - it seems to make the most sense - though I still need to learn more about socionics. Thank you for your opinion.

    I would never get angry about an enneagram type suggestion - I only get angry when people use enneatype suggestions to insult others. I, myself, mistyped at 3 before typing at 8; despite MANY people suggesting 8 to me and many people telling me that I'm not a 3. For a short while, it felt right, but once I learned more about enneagram, it ceased to make sense in a deep way.

    My mind is still open and I do appreciate the observation. I also know it's coming from a good place - you're not insulting me, or saying "You're shallow and stupid therefore you are this type." But you are wrong about your interpretation of my typing at 8. It's not your fault - because you don't know me well yet. Based on a small amount of data, many very well-informed people would type me at 3, but after knowing me better, it becomes clear that it's not even in my tritype. I have no problem, or issue, with the type 3, or with seeing myself as a 3, except that it is simply inaccurate.

    I'm not going to justify my typing here, but over time, let me know if your observations change, or if you see more that points you to 3. I'm all ears. =)

    And just fyi, my interpretation of lust is not 'sexual lust' - it is precisely the lust that Naranjo, Maitri, and other authors would describe and associate with 8: triumph over adversity, powerlust, emptiness being filled with conquests, denial of shame and vulnerability, vengeance on the world which rejected you, taking what you want, etc. Any enneatype can experience sexual lust. When I mistyped at 5, even, I spoke of my sexual lust quite freely, and when people told me I was an 8, I told them, "That is ridiculous - any type can be turned on - we are all human."

    I've also had the kind of life where I was very, very unhealthy after a trauma and explored my worst potentials. Over many years I rose out of this hell and matured. The perspective of my whole life points to 8 and not 3.

  9. #28

    Enneatype 3 is "The marketing orientation." 3s feel worthless unless others buy the image that they're selling. The idea that all 3's are industrious is incorrect. That is a "what," not a "why." 3s can be industrious in order to show the world their worth, and uphold the image of industriousness and success. A 3 could also think it's cool to be 'bohemian' and play down his finances in order to be seen as 'free-spirited.' Still these people would both be 3's because they have an image of themselves that they want the world to buy, and they sell it. Success, to a 3, means that the world/ other people have bought their image.

    This is not what success is about to me. Success is about being completely in control of my own life. Nobody else having a say in what I do. Success means control, simply put. Success means I control my illness as best as I can, and I don't care if other people think I control it, or if they see me as an invalid - I set my own standard and that's it. Success means I am doing what I love and what I want to do, and doing it up to my standard, whether it sells or not. I'll be honest, my album didn't sell - the music industry is shit right now and I'm not signed. But it's still a success to me because I did it, and I did everything myself, my own way, and expressed myself honestly. I don't care if anyone else likes it because it is honest. But, some people have told me that my singing through my whispery voice inspired them to take up singing or to do something they were afraid of. This made me feel great, even made me cry - and crying was nearly an impossible feat for me for years.

    In the past when I was traumatized I was cold, but still hungry. I wanted to take from the world and make it pay for everything it took from me. There was emptiness and hunger like I can't describe - I called myself a vampire because of the cold and detached way I wanted to suck the blood out of life just to feel alive, to feel anything at all. I turned to substances to try to control my mind, my emotions, and my work. I had to be on top in relationships, to possess people and be in control, but I wouldn't commit because I was terrified to make myself vulnerable. Other people called me ruthless, or crude... I didn't care. It was not about them - it was about getting what I want. I held on to my integrity because I never lied about what I want, and I thought the people who decided to deal with me were digging their own grave so they deserved what they got. In my eyes my suitors were weak, but convenient. I was in a really bad place and it's not the bad place that I see in type 3s. It was not about the impression I give to the world but rather, losing control & autonomy & money, having no control over my body, and seeking control in all the wrong ways. When a man would tell me he needed me or loved me I would tell him he's weak, pathetic, and should get his own life. If he wanted to 'save me' I'd tell him such a pathetic, pointless endeavor only proves that he ought to instead focus on saving his damn self. A few men got slapped in the face when they tried to 'love me' or 'need me.' I wasn't having it. When I say I've been to the lowest of the lows, I mean it - and there are worse things I won't write here, too.

    I would say "it was disgusting" but I still don't feel any shame about it. The only regret I have is pushing away someone I could have truly loved because I convinced myself I didn't love him and he was just an object like everyone else. I denied having any vulnerable feelings (not TO HIM, but WITHIN MYSELF) until it was too late. After that (ten years ago) I did some serious self-work , improvement, learning compassion and forgiveness in any way I could, and I moved to the city where I lead my band and got an apartment that I divided into many rooms. As a leader people jokingly called me "hitler" but they thought I was industrious and I got shit done. I had no issue kicking someone out who fucked me over, lied to me or didn't pay rent. I was still pretty hardened and selfish and used people for my purposes, though I also had compassion and reached out to those who were truly in need, who were suffering, who I felt were honest and whose strength I could build up. Still I never let anyone do this for me - I retained my independence out of necessity. After leaving the city I continued to grow because I had a 2-year relationship and actually opened up to someone. I still have trouble acknowledging vulnerable feelings. I still experience denial of shame and feelings even though I know this happens.... I can't stop it. I know that the truth of the matter is, I have always feared that one day I'll die of a broken heart. All of my defenses protect me from this complete surrender and vulnerablity. I want to surrender, to lose control, to trust, to fall into someone... but I push people away because my heart tells me that trusting someone completely, giving to them, and then being betrayed is the only thing that would cause me to lose the will to live. To me, protecting myself from vulnerability is a survival issue - the worst, and most extreme conflict I face. In a world as cruel as this, it is simply stupid and impractical not to be selfish, to reach out, to open yourself to someone else. But on the other hand it feels good to give and to trust. And I want to surrender. It's a serious issue I've never managed to resolve and I am trying, to this day.

    I don't care if you believe I'm an 8 or not - I'm not saying this to convince you. You are entitled to your opinion and I respect any opinion you might have. But if you want a bit of a wider picture there you have it. I may or may not be mistyped, just like anyone else on PerC, but typing at 8 was not some light, careless decision that I made because I think it's cool, or because I enjoy having an orgasm.

  10. #29

    Quote Originally Posted by Animal View Post
    But you are wrong about your interpretation of my typing at 8. It's not your fault - because you don't know me well yet.
    It is not likely we will ever agree. But I am not bothered by this disagreement at all, because you have listened and treated reasonably and simply disagree, and I am glad that you are not either (I believed that you would not be, indeed -- otherwise it is unlikely I would have posted this).


    It is of no consequence to me whatsoever how many people agree with you that you are an 8. As I have said -- I opine that your treatment of most of the enneagram is conceptually weak, and that your self-concept is twisted and confused.

    And just fyi, my interpretation of lust is not 'sexual lust' - it is precisely the lust that Naranjo, Maitri, and other authors would describe and associate with 8: triumph over adversity, powerlust, emptiness being filled with conquests, denial of shame and vulnerability, vengeance on the world which rejected you, taking what you want, etc. Any enneatype can experience sexual lust.
    It is clear to me that your interpretation of lust is not merely in the domain of sexuality. However, you made a comment -- it may have been offhand and of no psychological meaning -- that you reflected on your history of feeling the need to take nude photos of yourself in various circumstances and this was somehow related to your lustfulness, and in general that the strength of your sexuality in the past *should* have been obvious to you.

    I do not agree that what you are describing in essence is the lust of 8s. In particular, "denial of shame" and "triumph over adversity" and "emptiness being filled" are more correctly the domain of 3 than 8. The difference, as I would describe it, is that 3s "conquest" is internal -- it is something directly reflecting the character of the self to be "achieved."

    The lust and conquest of 8s is directed towards other agents in the world, the actions of whom are "wrong" in some way. It is as a response to these external things that 8s experience their expansiveness -- the message being "Everything was good until some asshole stole my bike, so I will kill him and take the bike and thus make it better again." Not realizing that the act of killing the asshole (or indeed more precisely, the anger and negativity that comes from appraising the situation in such a way) makes this outcome worse and not better.

    I see none of this other-directed lust in your reflections.

    I've also had the kind of life where I was very, very unhealthy after a trauma and explored my worst potentials. Over many years I rose out of this hell and matured. The perspective of my whole life points to 8 and not 3.
    This perspective points to 3. Your maturity is something you *achieved* for yourself in spite of vicissitudinous circumstances. It is not something external that you *moved* because of the actions of others.
    Sina and Animal thanked this post.

  11. #30

    Quote Originally Posted by Animal View Post
    Enneatype 3 is "The marketing orientation." 3s feel worthless unless others buy the image that they're selling. The idea that all 3's are industrious is incorrect.
    I fully, thoroughly, disagree with what you have written so far. I think industry and accomplishment has everything to do with type 3. And this sheds some light on our disagreement.

    This is not what success is about to me. Success is about being completely in control of my own life. Nobody else having a say in what I do. Success means control, simply put. Success means I control my illness as best as I can, and I don't care if other people think I control it, or if they see me as an invalid - I set my own standard and that's it. Success means I am doing what I love and what I want to do, and doing it up to my standard, whether it sells or not. I'll be honest, my album didn't sell - the music industry is shit right now and I'm not signed. But it's still a success to me because I did it, and I did everything myself, my own way, and expressed myself honestly. I don't care if anyone else likes it because it is honest. But, some people have told me that my singing through my whispery voice inspired them to take up singing or to do something they were afraid of. This made me feel great, even made me cry - and crying was nearly an impossible feat for me for years.
    Again, my opinion is that this is 3ish. The orientation on "control" for 8s and 3s is somewhat different -- 3s feel successful as long as they are in control of "themselves." 8s need to be in control of the environment as it is affected by the other autonomous and unjustly-acting agents around them -- which in your example here you dismiss as of no importance.

    Which is not to say that 3s are not affected by external appraisals of their success. But rather than external appraisals, their sense of competence and achievement is related to their own industry.

    In the past when I was traumatized I was cold, but still hungry. I wanted to take from the world and make it pay for everything it took from me. There was emptiness and hunger like I can't describe - I called myself a vampire because of the cold and detached way I wanted to suck the blood out of life just to feel alive, to feel anything at all. I turned to substances to try to control my mind, my emotions, and my work. I had to be on top in relationships, to possess people and be in control, but I wouldn't commit because I was terrified to make myself vulnerable. Other people called me ruthless, or crude... I didn't care. It was not about them - it was about getting what I want. I held on to my integrity because I never lied about what I want, and I thought the people who decided to deal with me were digging their own grave so they deserved what they got. In my eyes my suitors were weak, but convenient. I was in a really bad place and it's not the bad place that I see in type 3s.
    Respectfully, the emptiness and lack of feeling is characteristic of type 3. The need to maintain integrity in your own eyes is also characteristic -- unhealthy 8s have few qualms about the morality of their controllingness.

    I would say "it was disgusting" but I still don't feel any shame about it. The only regret I have is pushing away someone I could have truly loved because I convinced myself I didn't love him and he was just an object like everyone else. I denied having any vulnerable feelings (not TO HIM, but WITHIN MYSELF) until it was too late. After that (ten years ago) I did some serious self-work , improvement, learning compassion and forgiveness in any way I could, and I moved to the city where I lead my band and got an apartment that I divided into many rooms. As a leader people jokingly called me "hitler" but they thought I was industrious and I got shit done. I had no issue kicking someone out who fucked me over, lied to me or didn't pay rent. I was still pretty hardened and selfish and used people for my purposes, though I also had compassion and reached out to those who were truly in need, who were suffering, who I felt were honest and whose strength I could build up. Still I never let anyone do this for me - I retained my independence out of necessity. After leaving the city I continued to grow because I had a 2-year relationship and actually opened up to someone. I still have trouble acknowledging vulnerable feelings. I still experience denial of shame and feelings even though I know this happens.... I can't stop it. I know that the truth of the matter is, I have always feared that one day I'll die of a broken heart. All of my defenses protect me from this complete surrender and vulnerablity. I want to surrender, to lose control, to trust, to fall into someone... but I push people away because my heart tells me that trusting someone completely, giving to them, and then being betrayed is the only thing that would cause me to lose the will to live. To me, protecting myself from vulnerability is a survival issue - the worst, and most extreme conflict I face. In a world as cruel as this, it is simply stupid and impractical not to be selfish, to reach out, to open yourself to someone else. But on the other hand it feels good to give and to trust. And I want to surrender. It's a serious issue I've never managed to resolve and I am trying, to this day.

    I don't care if you believe I'm an 8 or not - I'm not saying this to convince you. You are entitled to your opinion and I respect any opinion you might have. But if you want a bit of a wider picture there you have it. I may or may not be mistyped, just like anyone else on PerC, but typing at 8 was not some light, careless decision that I made because I think it's cool, or because I enjoy having an orgasm.
    I could go on, but it is more pointing out that your story is self-deceitful, rather than deceitful to others, and that it has characteristics of type 3.

    As an aside, I think Hitler was a 4.
    Sina thanked this post.


     
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