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80 items long questionnaire

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This is a discussion on 80 items long questionnaire within the What's my Socionics type? forums, part of the Socionics Forum category; Originally Posted by Aleksei When I say "what matters" I'm referring to what matters to what a person's type is. ...

  1. #21

    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    When I say "what matters" I'm referring to what matters to what a person's type is. Given that Socionics is an interpersonal relations matrix, it types along the lines of what, you know, will actually affect how we relate to other people. How someone chooses to answer a factual question will reveal their personal definition of that question, and little more. An Fi-leading type, an Fe-leading type, and a Ti-leading type, and indeed any other type, may well define a specific object of the psyche the same way. Without finding out what's important to people, what makes them tick, you have nothing usable.
    I don't know how you fucking type or read type, but this is not how I do it, personally. I don't take what people say at face value. I don't care about what they say as much as I care about how they say it. Indeed, I am looking at relationships but I am looking at how people relate to the information in an impersonal rather than personal way. I don't care all that much about what kind of information people speak about. It's all the fucking say to me because what I really care about is what is going on in their heads, and for that you just need to make them talk. The subject is by and large, largely irrelevant to me. They can talk about fucking teddy bears for all I care, but how they do that will say a lot about their preferred cognition.
    You need to get people to talk about themselves, or about something that will clearly reveal how they filter the world, to type them. And you don't need eighty fucking questions to do it neither.
    Yes, and by that you can ask people any kind of question that makes them talk. I don't think the end of all is the intertype aspect of socionics though it is a large part of it, but there is so much more that's relevant when it comes to the interpersonal than cognition.

    As for 80 fucking questions, I have no real opinion on it. As long it manages to make people talk it's all good to me. I uploaded the questionnaire because I personally found it surprisingly good at revealing someone's preferred cognition and it's 80 because it's fucking thorough like that. The amount of questions doesn't necessarily say much about the quality of someone's answer. You could have just one question and if it made people talk it would be good enough.

  2. #22

    Well I think if you have a questionnaire that wastes 3+ hours of people's lives and the only person that can interpret the answers is you, that's a problem

  3. #23

    Quote Originally Posted by Pancreatic Pandora View Post
    And what's the difference between "skill" and "sophistication"?
    I was at a loss for the correct word, but in reality what I mean is the scope of our grasp on how and when to apply it. Elements with more vectors can be used with more nuance, though not necessarily with a greater level of expertise. As the person gains age and experience (and dualizes), their expertise may eventually converge.

    Ok, this part is news to me. I tried searching for "subdued" here: Socionics - the16types.info - Dimensionality of Functions , hoping for an explanation of what you meant but I found nothing and the article is really long and I've never fully read it.
    Well, use a little bit of deductive logic. The first thing you see is that the demonstrative function has the same number of vectors as the leading function, leading to the conclusion that it has the same level of sophistication. The dimensionality article pegs it as the internal 4D function, whereas the leading is the social 4D function. This is evidenced by the descriptions of the demonstrative function:

    8. The Standard Function: a person acts on this function actively, but "automatically", chaotically, "as usual"; one needs to see a positive example which would drive his/her efforts into the necessary direction.
    A person uses this element mainly as a kind of game, or to ridicule those who he thinks take it too seriously. They often intentionally go against its conventional usage simply to prove a point in favor of their creative function. However, this function is used quite often in private, to produce information of its element to support their creative function when focusing on making contact with the external world.

    A person will often have just as sophisticated an understanding of this function as his or her leading function. Unlike the ignoring function it plays a major part in a person's worldview
    , since as the vulnerable function of one's dual it requires especially delicate attention. Thus, when a person is given information regarding the element in the demonstrative function by someone else, they will tend to take it as obvious information that is irrelevant to completely focus on. One will often use the demonstrative function to defend and further support their beliefs made in the vulnerable function.
    In the second quote, pay attention to the bolded. Ultimately, we aren't receptive to outside information regarding the demonstrative (or any subdued) function, but we do incorporate them in our lives. We just don't take them quite seriously enough to have a social expectation that people should act in a way concordant to our subdued functions.

    Notice that the quote you provided as an example is the Ignoring, which is not only an internal function -- it lacks a time vector. Because the 3D block functions are limited to the situation vector, they are both used only sporadically, As your main focus regarding them is identifying whether it's appropriate, useful or necessary to use them. Being opposed to your primary orientation (introtims are inclined to observe, extrotims to act) this really usually takes the form of identifying when use of your 3D functions isn't necessary or appropriate. They are primarily used to support your 4D block.

    Interestingly, Victor Gulenko is in the midst of building his own model in which the second function is the demonstrative, and then the third and fourth functions are the 2D functions. Which I would say is more or less accurate as far as frequency of use goes. The role and mobilizing functions are functions that we tend to overuse, usually with a low level of sophistication, but overuse them we do.

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  5. #24

    The idea that one does not properly "use" one's subdued functions is also at odds with another important aspect of intertype relations: communication style.

    Socionics - the16types.info - Gulenko Communication Styles

    Passionate
    Extraverted ethical types – ExFx

    In conversation, the position of the people of these types is an active search for feelings. They bring emotions to those around them. In their life scenarios, it is typical of individuals of these types to marry earlier, on the average, than individuals other sociotypes. However, they also more frequently go through divorces than representatives of other sociotypes. These types understand dialogue as an exchange of emotions, as a type of "navigation" through the rough currents of life.

    This group is designated as ER: their Ego blocks contain either ethics of emotions E (Fe) as first function, or ethics of relations R (Fi) as the second function.


    Cold-blooded
    Introverted logical types – IxTx

    Their communication style is opposite to Passionate style. Their position in informal dialogue – a passive anticipation of feelings. Dialogues of these types proceed according to established schemes and norms. Their life scenarios suggest that they marry later in life than representatives of other types and are not inclined to re-marry. Their marriages, as a rule, are the least successful. They understand communication as an exchange of missing information of explanatory nature. Such manner of communicating doesn't lose anything if it's carried out only in a written form.

    This group is designated as LP: their Ego blocks contain either structural logic L (Ti) as the first function, or business logic R (Te) as the second function.


    Between these two poles of communication styles, "bright" and "muted", lie two intermediate styles that better conform with the societal norms and expectations for behavior of people of the opposite sex.


    Business-inclined
    Extraverted logical types – ExTx

    Their communication style is an active anticipation of feelings. Business-inclined sociotypes expect to meet their other half in the whirlpool of their activities. The stereotypical image of a man prescribes him an active position in life, but not in the area of feelings. In romantic literature, the hero gets acquainted with his future beloved by rescuing her from troubles. These sociotypes interpret communication as a business cooperation.

    This group is designated as PL: their Ego blocks contain either business logic R (Te) as the first function, or structural logic L (Ti) as the second function.


    Sincere/Soulful
    Introverted ethical types – IxFx

    Their position can be characterized as a passive search of feelings. Sincere sociotypes, being ethical, confidently choose a partner who has impressed them, but as introverts they express their readiness for relational contact by giving indirect signals. This is the kind of behavior that is expected from a woman during the premarital period in traditional societies. These sociotypes are most inclined to stereotypical distribution of roles: man – as the bread-winner and defender of the family, woman – as the guardian of the family and nurturer of children. They understand communication as an exchange of signs of deep, personal attachment.

    This group is designated as RE: their Ego blocks contain either ethics of relations R (Fi) as the first function, or ethics of emotion E (Fe) as the second function.
    The above is, I've found from my own sample, very consistently applicable. And it is only explicable when one considers that the main defining factor in how one employs a function is not whether it's valued, but its level of dimensionality.

  6. #25

    @Aleksei Oh so the private use of the demonstrative refers to applying it in service of our creative and the social aspect is about the expectations we'd place on others. Very well, it makes sense to me. I'll have to read more of that article and see how it applies to real life then.
    Aleksei, Aleksei, Aleksei and 12 others thanked this post.

  7. #26

    Quote Originally Posted by Pancreatic Pandora View Post
    @Aleksei Oh so the private use of the demonstrative refers to applying it in service of our creative and the social aspect is about the expectations we'd place on others. Very well, it makes sense to me. I'll have to read more of that article and see how it applies to real life then.
    Yeah that's pretty much it.

    Like for instance, take ILI and LII: ILIs want to live a rational life, undisturbed and unclouded by anything incoherent. So to do that they figure out how everything works and how the process of everything unfolds, so their clarity serves as a weapon against irrationality. LIIs, conversely, are mostly driven by curiosity. They want to know how the world works, so they analyze and dissect everything around them.

    This may seem very similar, but it has a pretty profound impact on the kind of information they're receptive to: LIIs are only idly curious about the world, so they are not receptive to being pushed to do anything (Se). ILIs need rationality in their lives, so they are unwilling to deal with people's eccentricities and outbursts (Fe).
    GnothiSeauton and Schweeeeks thanked this post.

  8. #27

    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    Yeah that's pretty much it.

    Like for instance, take ILI and LII: ILIs want to live a rational life, undisturbed and unclouded by anything incoherent. So to do that they figure out how everything works and how the process of everything unfolds, so their clarity serves as a weapon against irrationality. LIIs, conversely, are mostly driven by curiosity. They want to know how the world works, so they analyze and dissect everything around them.

    This may seem very similar, but it has a pretty profound impact on the kind of information they're receptive to: LIIs are only idly curious about the world, so they are not receptive to being pushed to do anything (Se). ILIs need rationality in their lives, so they are unwilling to deal with people's eccentricities and outbursts (Fe).
    Hmm... How would you say this works for LSIs?

  9. #28

    Quote Originally Posted by GnothiSeauton View Post
    Hmm... How would you say this works for LSIs?
    LSIs are Si+Ti, so they focus on procuring a life that is comfortable to them by organizing their affairs in an orderly and rational fashion. They tend to settle into somewhat rigid patterns and routines and run the risk of getting stuck in a rut or an overly repetitive/complacent life, because they're very suspicious of new ideas, plans, paths. In order to expand their horizons they need someone that's passionate about their path, their ideas, and their vision of life and can both expose new ideas in great detail so they're convincing, and infect them with their enthusiasm about them.

    SLIs, by comparison, primarily want a rational life, so they take the path of least resistance to everything. The simpler and more efficient their life is, the less effort they have to put into figuring it all out.
    GnothiSeauton and Schweeeeks thanked this post.

  10. #29

    Kinda sad that in order to expand our horizons, we necessarily need someone else. When it happens, it's fucking awesome, but I feel very hopeless and impotent at it, when left to my own devices. I think it's not uncommon for LSIs who don't experience a whole lot of dualization, to implicitly admit to their difficulties and imply that they're somehow not "worthy" of such stimulation. They are also very poor at determining the quality and importance of these experiences in terms of how they affect their lives in general, because perceptually it's a very on/off thing. At least it tends to be the way I feel about it most of the time.

    Oh well.
    Aleksei thanked this post.

  11. #30

    Dude, nobody's perfect. I am hopeless at organizing myself and actually getting to where I want to go, I have problems with emotional self-regulation, depression... without someone like an LSI to stabilize me, I'm all but useless. So it's not like anyone really has it all together and needs no one for anything.
    GnothiSeauton thanked this post.


     
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