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Discussion starter · #1 ·
More and more, and I am seeing how having Te as my weakest function and Ti as my inferior function is the source of many difficulties.

Lack of Te is the reason that so many people perceive us as being illogical or not intellectual--yet the same people think we are geniuses in situations where our Ti shines. Case in point, I can't tell you how many NT's have PM'd me here because of well-organized, logical posts I've made. They've gone on about how it trips their geek meters. Well, that's because in a written debate or in writing in general we are using Ti. We are in our thinking bubble taking our quiet time to parse out our thoughts and organize them.

Irl these same types will often opine that I am an unthinking idiot in a debate. Now, if it's a debate within my area of expertise--something I have written about and explored extensively in research and writing--something that's not personal--but just an intellectual exercise--well, in that situation, I am fine. In fact, NT's will actually be impressed in a professional setting--one where I have geared up and prepared for the discussion. I'm even told that I am good speaker.

But let's say that it's in a personal situation--particularly a debate with a partner---oh hells no! I freeze up. I may have read about the subject. In my mind, I have reasons for thinking my partner is wrong. Those reasons are logical and based on evidence. But I can't spit it out. I can't articulate it. If my partner is worked up--and staking his opinion of my or the relationship on it--it's that much worse. I get afraid even to discuss the issue at all. I've noticed this thing happening a lot in my last relationship and in my current one. And to be clear, we are talking about a debate on something like, "What's the right political structure?" It's not about relationship issue--but it becomes a relationship issue. My previous partner, an INTP, thought that I was not an intellectual and that I was unreasonable. To be fair to me though, I think he WANTED to be dominate and to put me down. My current partner is great, but he really worries about my judgment--I wish I could articulate to him my reasons for disagreeing with him on certain things.

I am almost thinking I need to go into a Ti bubble and research and write some papers about some of the issues that are important to him so that I can calmly discuss the issues. The thing is though that he is an ENFJ too. So I think he goes through some of the same emotional freezing up that I do when something seems threatening in a debate. He tries to shut it down. We both try to express our POV in other ways by sharing videos, etc., with each other. But he does it more. At one point, it was streaming all the time, and I felt overwhelmed by it. At the same time, he was wanting me to shut off my stuff when I played it. That has gotten a little more balanced as I expressed how overwhelmed I was in therapy. He streams a little less or puts on headphones more frequently, and sometimes he listens to my stuff too.

I suppose with two Ti's who are also Fe dom--it's just going to be a long road to working these things out.
 
More and more, and I am seeing how having Te as my weakest function and Ti as my inferior function is the source of many difficulties.

Lack of Te is the reason that so many people perceive us as being illogical or not intellectual--yet the same people think we are geniuses in situations where our Ti shines. Case in point, I can't tell you how many NT's have PM'd me here because of well-organized, logical posts I've made. They've gone on about how it trips their geek meters. Well, that's because in a written debate or in writing in general we are using Ti. We are in our thinking bubble taking our quiet time to parse out our thoughts and organize them.

Irl these same types will often opine that I am an unthinking idiot in a debate. Now, if it's a debate within my area of expertise--something I have written about and explored extensively in research and writing--something that's not personal--but just an intellectual exercise--well, in that situation, I am fine. In fact, NT's will actually be impressed in a professional setting--one where I have geared up and prepared for the discussion. I'm even told that I am good speaker.

But let's say that it's in a personal situation--particularly a debate with a partner---oh hells no! I freeze up. I may have read about the subject. In my mind, I have reasons for thinking my partner is wrong. Those reasons are logical and based on evidence. But I can't spit it out. I can't articulate it. If my partner is worked up--and staking his opinion of my or the relationship on it--it's that much worse. I get afraid even to discuss the issue at all. I've noticed this thing happening a lot in my last relationship and in my current one. And to be clear, we are talking about a debate on something like, "What's the right political structure?" It's not about relationship issue--but it becomes a relationship issue. My previous partner, an INTP, thought that I was not an intellectual and that I was unreasonable. To be fair to me though, I think he WANTED to be dominate and to put me down. My current partner is great, but he really worries about my judgment--I wish I could articulate to him my reasons for disagreeing with him on certain things.

I am almost thinking I need to go into a Ti bubble and research and write some papers about some of the issues that are important to him so that I can calmly discuss the issues. The thing is though that he is an ENFJ too. So I think he goes through some of the same emotional freezing up that I do when something seems threatening in a debate. He tries to shut it down. We both try to express our POV in other ways by sharing videos, etc., with each other. But he does it more. At one point, it was streaming all the time, and I felt overwhelmed by it. At the same time, he was wanting me to shut off my stuff when I played it. That has gotten a little more balanced as I expressed how overwhelmed I was in therapy. He streams a little less or puts on headphones more frequently, and sometimes he listens to my stuff too.

I suppose with two Ti's who are also Fe dom--it's just going to be a long road to working these things out.
My now-estranged wife (who is an INFP) used to have the same issue of becoming overwhelmed in our personal debates. She was quite smart, but had trouble gathering and articulating her thoughts in the heat of discussion. It didn't help that I often led with Ti, which was probably quite foreign to her, being a normal INFP's 8th function.

Sometimes, we would take a recess, give time to mull it over, and even jot thoughts down on paper. This unhurried debate process helped tremendously.

In the end, debate poise, snappy rejoinders, and eloquence aren't the point; the point of a debate (beyond the tense and obfuscating sport that it often becomes) is dialectic reasoning, the resolution of thesis and antithesis into conclusive truth and the use of that truth for collective edification.
 
Discussion starter · #4 ·
It sounds like you offered her some time and viewed the purpose of the debate differently.

My most recent ex would start making fun of me when I got flustered and would use insulting language regarding my point of view. When I tried to speak, he would start shouting that I was interrupting him--when really he meant expressing another point of view or having a voice int he conversation at all was interrupting. He just wanted to go on without contradiction for a long stretch. I would be able to call out the illogic of his ad hominem attacks or interruptions in writing like I can now. But in that situation, I would just get upset and melt down.

My current boyfriend also is not in the debate to resolve the thesis and anti-thesis into the truth. I love him, but he is a strong J type ENFJ. There is one thing he knows for certain--and that is that he is right about certain issues and that there is one right way of doing things. So we and our pets should ALL be eating an Alkalarian Vegan diet, and we will never have cancer, other illnesses or injuries. Women can even regrow their eggs. If I express a different point of view or provide evidence for it, he says that it is just the lies spread by the pharmaceutical companies who train the doctors. He interrupts me, and we both start getting flustered in the argument. He sometimes laughs at my point of view. And it can get heated. But we have learned to time out. I think part the problem is that this issue isn't just an intellectual exercise---I feel my health and the life of my cat threatened and feel the relationship threatened. He wants me to be Alkalarian, but I don't want to--and with my hypoglycemia, it doesn't work for me. I also believe it will kill my cat. At the same time, it's part of why he is upset with me and feels less close--and is avoiding intimacy. So I also feel the relationship threatened. I could write a whole paper on how it's not right and how he's being unfair, but I can't get him to see it. We are in therapy, and I hope that he softens up on this issue and others.

But the Ti definitely makes it harder for me to communicate about it. I've thought about actually writing a paper about it. Much as those papers might successfully prove my point to outside viewers, I have found that long emails to my partners on issues typically backfire. Delicate stuff just isn't meant to be communicated in an email. So here I am, stuck.

I know some people would just say to leave. But that's been what I've done in fourteen other relationships---not to mention the nearly one hundred men I've dated--I've never found anyone better who was interested in me. In fact, my most recent ex was the worst of all choices. The older I get the more it seems that my choices in men are more limited. And this man is the only one who has agreed to stick it out with me in therapy---something even my ex-husband wouldn't do. And I really need the therapy. So here we are.

Plus, I do love him.

Maybe we'll both learn a better way to communicate in therapy. This therapy addresses the underlying wounds that impede communication, so there's some hope.
 
Discussion starter · #6 ·
I don't know much about ENFP's. But I know some INFJ lawyers who are capable of writing something organized and logical. I also know an INFJ financial wizard who has done some really logical things--Harvard MBA guy. They just REALLY don't like confrontation--even more than us.

I also know some ENFP lawyers who can be pretty logical. They just also come across as begin very sweet.
 
My now-estranged wife (who is an INFP) used to have the same issue of becoming overwhelmed in our personal debates. She was quite smart, but had trouble gathering and articulating her thoughts in the heat of discussion. It didn't help that I often led with Ti, which was probably quite foreign to her, being a normal INFP's 8th function.

Sometimes, we would take a recess, give time to mull it over, and even jot thoughts down on paper. This unhurried debate process helped tremendously.

In the end, debate poise, snappy rejoinders, and eloquence aren't the point; the point of a debate (beyond the tense and obfuscating sport that it often becomes) is dialectic reasoning, the resolution of thesis and antithesis into conclusive truth and the use of that truth for collective edification.
I have the same exact problem with my INTP boyfriend! I freeze sometimes when he puts my Ti on the spot. I've realized, conversely that his Fe, inferior is often triggered by me as well, including his insecurities about it. I've realized this very quickly, and learned not to push emotional issues, because I think it triggers a fight response at times.

We also established an agreement where he writes down his feelings instead of speaking them, giving him a lot more time and clarity of mind, not feeling the pressure to quickly articulate his feelings.

Sometimes, when my Ti is put on the spot by him, I feel really stupid. I rarely feel inarticulate, but in those moments, it's been very trying for me...especially attempting to make him understand why I feel the way I do.
 
It feels weird to be doling out this stereotypical advice over a thinking function, but as a Ti-dom: Open up and work through it with your partner out loud.

In a debate, there's nothing more useless to me than not understanding what the other parties are trying to say. A debate isn't about winning (though it can be satisfying to reach a unified consensus), so much as it is about understanding and intellectual enrichment. That can only be achieved when everyone comprehends what everyone else means to say. When you feel too inarticulate to communicate your points, say so. Spit out some idea you have, even if it's not the logical starting point, so everyone has something to build on and help guide you through what you're trying to say. Let them figuratively hold your hand through the process, asking questions to flesh out your ideas so they can help assemble it into a coherent argument with you. When I'm the guiding hand in this process for other people, I don't feel burdened at all. If anything, I feel empowered for being able help somebody understand their own thoughts and exercise my strength in the process.

Snooping around a bunch of INTP/ENFJ threads on this site, I've noticed a lot of ENFJs saying that it's stressful but satisfying to help an INTP work through and develop their awful, awful Fe expression. This is the exact same process with the functions flipped. For a lot of us, this kind of thing is how we engage with people intimately. Assuming your partner isn't trying to score a cheap "win" against you, they ought to be willing, if not happy, to help out.

With regards to the OP, since you're both ENFJs, the process will probably be a bit more grueling. The point stands, though: Try to reframe the debate in your head as a communication or interpersonal issue (and it is interpersonal in the most literal sense), open up that vulnerability to your partner, and start working from there.
 
I suppose the problem though might be that he is not open to changing his mind during the discussion. He is right, period, and won't let it go.
See, that's exactly the issue. The goal of intellectual debates isn't to change anyone's mind. The goal is to exchange ideas so everyone understands the subject at hand better. I think mature IxTPs understand this point well, which is why we're so good at debating: The fact that we're not out to intellectually crush anyone opens us up to learning at every opportunity, which is what gives us the tools to "win" if we want to. But we don't want to, which is how we get to where we are.

You probably know far better than any IxTP that relationships are founded on partners understanding and compromising with each other. Help him understand you with the notion that "I feel like this, and it's preventing me from articulating my ideas, can you help me with that?" Since he's also an inferior Ti, he'll be resistant, but it's possible that the two of you will be able to help each other out with it. Or maybe he'll extend his hand, because that's all he needs to hear, because he's also an ENFJ.

I don't know, specific situations like this just need more data. The point is, opening up with something as trivial as this (or at least what seems trivial from my point of view) is a good starting point, which will help you explore your relationship in the future.
 
Discussion starter · #11 ·
Yeah, I think the problem though is that he doesn't want to help me with it--he just wants me to do what he wants me to do, which is to be an Alkalarian Vegan. He wants to be able to shoot down my points and silence my objection.
 
If that's the case, then do you honestly think that an articulate, well-spoken argument opposing his side is really going to change his mind?

The way you talk about it, that definitely does not sound like the case. Remember too, that veganism is often about ethical concerns more than health, so even being able to deconstruct his points and point out the flaws may not work.
 
Discussion starter · #13 ·
Actually, Alkalarian Veganism is really out there. There really isn't anything animal welfare connected about not eating orange, vinegar, mushrooms, seaweed, pineapple, apples, berries, etc.

But I think you are right that even a well-reasoned argument is not going to convince him--because the guy insists that if I go Alkalarian that I'll regrow my eggs, that I would not be injured in a car wreck or other accident, that I could not have any diseases--not cancer, not hypoglycemia, not ebola, not the flu--you name it. It's crazy, and you can't argue with crazy.
 
Actually, Alkalarian Veganism is really out there. There really isn't anything animal welfare connected about not eating orange, vinegar, mushrooms, seaweed, pineapple, apples, berries, etc.

But I think you are right that even a well-reasoned argument is not going to convince him--because the guy insists that if I go Alkalarian that I'll regrow my eggs, that I would not be injured in a car wreck or other accident, that I could not have any diseases--not cancer, not hypoglycemia, not ebola, not the flu--you name it. It's crazy, and you can't argue with crazy.
Off-subject: any rhyme or reason to that particular list of exclusions?
 
Discussion starter · #15 ·
Oh, it's all of this Dr. Young PhMiracle stuff. He advocates for a seventy percent alkaline diet and claims that some foods like lemons turn alkaline in the stomach while others do not. He says that acidity is the cause of all disease and infection. And he says that sugar, alcohol, vinegar, and anything fermented is bad because it is crap from yeast. He's against anything that is a fungus or a mold--and I guess mushrooms count as a fungus. He calls seaweed pond scum.

He's not all wrong. He is right that sugar and alcohol are pretty well tied to cancer and other problems. Eliminating empty carbs is a good thing. The veggies incorporated via this diet are healthy. The hemp oil, flax oil, olive oil, and avocados are also a healthy thing.

It's just that he's not all right either. Once this stuff hits the bloodstream, it doesn't change the PH of the blood. And certain parts of the body are supposed to be acidic for good reason. Calling seaweed pond scum seems to be a little more superstitious than scientific. And the guy has no peer reviewed studies to back him.

He's also been arrested more than once for practicing medicine without a license. People have given up their traditional treatments to go to his clinic and have died.


So, given that I am also a hypoglycemic who already tried Veganism for years and just got really hypoglycemic--and also had cancer--during that time--well, I'm really not willing to take that risk. And I'm sure not putting my cat on a Vegan diet.
 
Why not just show him the things you've said in this thread? They're cogent enough.

And yeah, making a cat go vegan is beyond insane. They're carnivores through and through, and if your partner can't understand that, there's no appealing to his logic.
 
Discussion starter · #17 ·
He'll just come back and say that it's all lies told by the pharmaceutical companies and that my hypoglycemia is "just the toxins leaving [my] body." When I mention my cancer, he'll say that it's because I wasn't doing it right and so on. He's very unhearing. And at a certain point, he just tells me to shush.
 
He can't prove that his theory/hypothesis is correct, nor wrong. The debate is based on lack of enough data, both from you as a potential test and from scientific research. Neither one of you know exactly why his diet makes him feel good, etc etc. In terms of the topic, I think the best attitude would be giving each other the benefit of doubt. As you described, he may not realize that his attitude is problematic. He shouldn't expect you to make the same decision based on something totally hypothetical if not wrong.

Maybe just emphasize that his statements are all hypothetical, that you are willing to keep open-minded, instead of directly disagreeing. He probably didn't take disagreement from you well.

I heard over and over again, in relationship people encounter these: conflicts come from one or two partner who is not willing to yield/compromise. For him, I think he needs to realize that in the end, this is your personal choice. Does he choose to move on together with you regardless of your choice and bear the concequences. For you, similar question, if he kept being upset with your choice on this area for a long time/forever, are you willing to focus on other areas where you guys get along well?

I think for ENFJs it is very tough to give up and let go. It is not good feeling, occasionally I feel like I couldn't do it. In time like this, use lots of patience and self-reflection. It only feels great once it is resolved, and that is not guaranteed. But that is what love really is. I hope that he can get it soon.

He'll just come back and say that it's all lies told by the pharmaceutical companies and that my hypoglycemia is "just the toxins leaving [my] body." When I mention my cancer, he'll say that it's because I wasn't doing it right and so on. He's very unhearing. And at a certain point, he just tells me to shush.
 
Discussion starter · #19 ·
Except he won't give me the benefit of the doubt--

and I have trouble giving him the benefit of the doubt when he winds up going on sweets binges--it seems like he operates on only one extreme or another.

And I would say that I have enough data regarding some things--like, no a woman cannot regrow eggs by changing her diet. We are born with a set amount of eggs. Once they are gone, that is it.

I also am not going to give him the benefit of the doubt regarding my cat--my cat is not going to be a Vegan.
 
He can't prove that his theory/hypothesis is correct, nor wrong. The debate is based on lack of enough data, both from you as a potential test and from scientific research. Neither one of you know exactly why his diet makes him feel good, etc etc. In terms of the topic, I think the best attitude would be giving each other the benefit of doubt. As you described, he may not realize that his attitude is problematic. He shouldn't expect you to make the same decision based on something totally hypothetical if not wrong.

Maybe just emphasize that his statements are all hypothetical, that you are willing to keep open-minded, instead of directly disagreeing. He probably didn't take disagreement from you well.

I heard over and over again, in relationship people encounter these: conflicts come from one or two partner who is not willing to yield/compromise. For him, I think he needs to realize that in the end, this is your personal choice. Does he choose to move on together with you regardless of your choice and bear the concequences. For you, similar question, if he kept being upset with your choice on this area for a long time/forever, are you willing to focus on other areas where you guys get along well?

I think for ENFJs it is very tough to give up and let go. It is not good feeling, occasionally I feel like I couldn't do it. In time like this, use lots of patience and self-reflection. It only feels great once it is resolved, and that is not guaranteed. But that is what love really is. I hope that he can get it soon.
I agree. There isn't nearly enough data (to my knowledge) to maintain anything conclusive about a perfectly (or maximally) optimal human diet.
 
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