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Is this rape? (Interesting discussion)

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#41 ·
TheProphetLaLa said:
….Is this a serious question? I'm afraid to know the answer...
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Si. ;-)

Because it depends who you are looking at it from a legal standpoint, or from her emotional standpoint. Legally, it was not rape at all.
 
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#42 ·
Apolo said:
Si. ;-)

Because it depends who you are looking at it from a legal standpoint, or from her emotional standpoint. Legally, it was not rape at all.
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I have no idea what you're talking about. I don't know about the laws of feudal japan or modern day japan or anime japan, but in the USA this is rape from a legal standpoint. Its pretty simple.
 
#43 ·
TheProphetLaLa said:
I have no idea what you're talking about. I don't know about the laws of feudal japan or modern day japan or anime japan, but in the USA this is rape from a legal standpoint. Its pretty simple.
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We are not talking about US laws, as far as I know. We are talking about in that situation. A prostitute would have been a slave of sorts until she paid off her, or her families debts. So legally, she was not raped.

Obviously it would be rape in the US. :kitteh:
 
#44 ·
Apolo said:
We are not talking about US laws, as far as I know. We are talking about in that situation. A prostitute would have been a slave of sorts until she paid off her, or her families debts. So legally, she was not raped.

Obviously it would be rape in the US. :kitteh:
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Sadly enough, given some of the arguments (she's a prostitute, is she not demure, she got paid, it's illegal...which it likely was not in the show) that is not necessarily obvious. But, hopefully clarified for any who were in doubt. which is why I said my points only apply to our world. If she's a slave then she's not even at the legal level of prostitutes, who can be viewed like subcontractors, but as property to be given, loaned, or rented out. Ugh, but that's why I'd not want to take a time machine and live in the past.
 
#45 ·
Apolo said:
We are not talking about US laws, as far as I know. We are talking about in that situation. A prostitute would have been a slave of sorts until she paid off her, or her families debts. So legally, she was not raped.

Obviously it would be rape in the US. :kitteh:
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Well, I mean of course. Thats an anime. I could make up any rules I want in an anime. I could be a wizard or a dragon master. And laws on rape have been vastly different in the past. We can't compare our morality of today, to their morality then. There's no comparison. A lot of things we think that are inhumane today were common place back in time.

In an anime I'm a dragon master. In the civilized world today thats rape. Glad we cleared that up. :th_wink:
 
#46 ·
TheProphetLaLa said:
Well, I mean of course. Thats an anime. I could make up any rules I want in an anime. I could be a wizard or a dragon master. And laws on rape have been vastly different in the past. We can't compare our morality of today, to their morality then. There's no comparison. A lot of things we think that are inhumane today were common place back in time.

In an anime I'm a dragon master. In the civilized world today thats rape. Glad we cleared that up. :th_wink:
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Oh but of course. I was never intending to speak on today's laws or perceptions, merely on the context of the situation as it pertained to the anime, and the laws of Feudal Japan, during which period that anime represents. :tongue:
 
#47 ·
Deadmanrising said:
since she's a prostitute, her will doesn't matter
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I would call this "a rape that doesn't matter".
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Why doesn't it matter? To both quotes.

But when your job is to have sex with tons of people every day, is rape really as bad as when done to a normal, reserved girl?
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Yes. Rape isn't about the sex. It's about the power. Just because someone is sexually promiscuous does NOT make it any less wrong to rape them. A violation of control is just as traumatic to a sex worker as to a "normal" or "reserved" girl.

I don't know why I was so clouded but I was looking at it from the guy's perspective.
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On the whole, I believe in moral relativism, but I'm very absolutist about rape. Rape is wrong. End of story. I don't see how perspective matters.
 
#48 ·
I don't understand how a guy can get off while a girl is freaking out and scratching and trying to get away... that'd be distracting.

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A prostitute is someone who gets paid for having sex. It is of her will. If you work as a cashier at a grocery store and hate it, but stay because it's a paying job, then you are staying via your will. If your will was telling you to become unemployed, then that'd be what you'd be doing.

So no, not every prostitute is having sex against their will (although, I can only imagine they were abused before against their will).

Yet, in that situation, she is being forced to have sex against her will; thus, it's rape.
 
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Discussion starter · #49 ·
Antipode said:
I don't understand how a guy can get off while a girl is freaking out and scratching and trying to get away... that'd be distracting.
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Lot of people have utter domination fantasies, myself included.
Just like girls have fantasies of them being dominated/forced.

Of course I'd never rape a girl or anything, so don't judge. Lots of men want to dominate their girl.

And in the anime, she wasn't actually scratching or clawing and running away. She was just avoiding it and making excuses, so the guy wasn't exactly holding her down against her will and raping her. It was more of a comedic scene.
 
#50 ·
Wrong, that sort of argument fails when it comes to spousal rape. A man had sex with her against her will, a will that was explicitly expressed when she tried to run away.
Her position as a prostitute is arbitrary. If she had said nothing and just lay back, then it would be a different story. Consent can be given and removed at any time.

He should have just asked for a refund.
 
#51 ·
It's still rape, it's just that rape of prostitutes was most likely legal in countries. There are countries in the world today where a man can legally rape his wife, in fact it was like that in my own country not to long ago until a high court case in the nineties.

Rape has a definition beyond the law.

To be honest I find this whole thing, although interesting, rather disturbing. The idea that anybody would not look at that situation and call it rape is rather odd to me.
 
#52 ·
I would hugely disagree with you. Yes it was legal to rape back in the day, it happened a lot. But it's still rape, regardless of legality. The fact that people back in the day when referencing semi historical/mythological events, like the Rape of the Sabine women still refereed to the act as 'rape' proves my point. It simply just did not have such a negative connotation. Of course it was still a bad thing but it just was an 'accepted' bad thing like war, murder and famine.
 
#54 ·
That's a good question. I think most of the time it's implied. Like a person who inexplicably agreed beforehand to partake in a rape fantasy would 100% not be a rapist, despite the cries of "no". In other situations if the person doesn't protest and reciprocates then it's consent, unless of course they were unable to protest or reciprocate due to sleep, drugs etc.

That's what I think anyway
I'm sure a lawyer or an expert could, give a better answer.
 
#55 ·
Deadmanrising said:
Lot of people have utter domination fantasies, myself included.
Just like girls have fantasies of them being dominated/forced.

Of course I'd never rape a girl or anything, so don't judge. Lots of men want to dominate their girl.

And in the anime, she wasn't actually scratching or clawing and running away. She was just avoiding it and making excuses, so the guy wasn't exactly holding her down against her will and raping her. It was more of a comedic scene.
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Me and my hubby play out those kind of fantasies all the time, it's not uncommon as you've stated. That being said, however, we both know the difference between "play" and "shit just got real".

The girl in the anime obviously didn't want it. Sure it was played up comically, if not it would've been painfully awkward and made the male character less likable (I never much cared for him anyways, but you know what I mean XD )
That little trick is used in anime a lot to lighten up rapey scenes and scenarios.
 
Discussion starter · #56 ·
Kebachi said:
Me and my hubby play out those kind of fantasies all the time, it's not uncommon as you've stated. That being said, however, we both know the difference between "play" and "shit just got real".

The girl in the anime obviously didn't want it. Sure it was played up comically, if not it would've been painfully awkward and made the male character less likable (I never much cared for him anyways, but you know what I mean XD )
That little trick is used in anime a lot to lighten up rapey scenes and scenarios.
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I agree. He didn't really hold her down and force her, so I guess it's more "persistence" than "rape", what he did.
And I've played out these fantasies and they're hot as long as you keep a safe word.
 
#57 ·
Been a while since I watched that anime, so I don't remember the scene, but as was said - you really can't take modern USA legal standards and apply to them to Edo-era Japan. Different laws, cultures, and the surrounding contextual implications of both. Today we would consider that rape, but back then it was commonplace and not really treated as a crime (especially if it happened with a prostitute).
 
#58 ·
Deadmanrising said:
So I was watching Samurai Champloo, which is a really good anime, and this happened.

A guy pays for a prostitute(who's actually a secret agent, long story short). He tries having sex with her (at that time she realizes she has to be elsewhere) and resists sex and tries to run away. He tries to force sex upon her.
Is this rape? Rape is "technically" defined as sex against someone's will, but since she's a prostitute, her will doesn't matter, but it's still her will. Technically, she's had sex with a lot of other men "against her will" though she didn't resist it. But that would mean all prostitutes are technically raped. Never thought of it that way, huh..

:unsure:

I would call this "a rape that doesn't matter". What's your take on this?
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the moment he tries to "force sex upon her" is when it becomes rape. when he paid her for sex, she was consenting. then she changed her mind. I don't approve of prostitution, but he should have got his money back. He should not have forced her to give him his "Money's worth"
 
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