Aristocrats vs Democrats.

To_august · Mar 4, 2015

Aristocracy/Democracy is arguably one of the most misunderstood Reinin dichotomies, so it would be interesting to hear opinions as to how people relate to it.

Recently I've read a bunch of articles on this dichotomy, which contained too much speculations and whatnot, so as to unburden my mind:

Aristocrats, do you frequently use "Who are you to judge/lecture me?" thing on people? Do unwarranted familiarities grate on you?

Democrats, is it true that you'll have no problem in choosing a shady homeless person over a respectable looking man as your source for directions on the street? Do you lean to undue familiarity?

Do you support the theory that Aristocracy is usually more pronounced in rational types and Democracy in irrational types?
Do you think that it's accurate to say that Aristocracy is more articulated in Beta while Democracy being a Gamma thing?

Here are general descriptions for starters.

Aristocrats

Inclined to perceive and refer to other people, and themselves, by means of groupings and categories that they see these people belonging to; these groupings may be created and defined by the Aristocrats themselves, rather than be already existing and socially defined ones.

Their initial attitude towards another person is influenced by their attitude towards the grouping they see this person belonging to.

Tend to attribute common qualities to members of same groupings, and define such groupings by these same qualities.

Inclined to refer to others using expressions that mention generalized features of their groupings.

The aristocrat frequently perceives and defines himself an other people through group associations (division into groups can occur based on almost any criteria: professional or theoretical, by age or nationality, by place of residence or which floor the persons live on, etc.), for example: "I'm a representative of..." "This person is from such and such...". Collectivism is more inherent to the aristocrat.

Their attitude toward another person forms under the influence of their attitude towards the group to which the person belongs. To the aristocrat, it is incomprehensible how it is possible to belong to two opposing groups at the same time: "You are either with us, or with them and against us".

Aristocrat distinguished his "circle of contacts" by certain traits, realizes its certain "specialty".

In speech aristocrat frequently use expressions like "group", "typical representative of", "our", "all of them are like that", etc.

Democrats

Perceive and refer to other people, and themselves, primarily describing individual, personal qualities: frank, trustworthy, generous, unimaginative, lighthearted, good-looking, etc. which are generally not in connection to any grouping to which they might belong.

Form their relationships and attitudes toward other persons based on their own individual characteristics, rather than taking into account which grouping these persons fall into or their own relationships with the members of these circles and groupings.

Not inclined to perceive people as representatives of a certain grouping that supposedly possesses qualities inherent to people who comprise it.

When referring to others, not inclined to use expressions that mention the generalized features of the grouping or categories that these people belong to.

Democrat perceives and distinguishes himself primarily through personal qualities. Perceiving other people, their personal qualities are likewise primary for him (how close, interesting, pleasant or unpleasant this individual is to him personally; their intelligence, ideas, appearance, tastes, etc.). Because of this, individualism is inherent to the democrat: "I am I".

Democrat forms his attitude toward a specific person based on their personal characteristics (authority, intellect, personal achievements, etc.). The democrat recognizes superiority of certain individuals drawing from their personal qualities. The relation of the democrat to another person will not be based on their belonging to one group or another, as well as on their relations to the representatives of these groups.

Democratic types are not inclined to perceive people with whom they associate as representatives of a certain "circle of contacts", which possesses special characteristics, inherent precisely to the members of this circle.

Democrat is not inclined to use expressions that generalize "group features" of certain individuals (for example, "a typical representative").

Entropic · Mar 4, 2015

I can be so socially elitist I used to think I was an aristocrat as a result; I can easily shit talk an entire group of people without considering the individuals in it eg white trash and the like. I do however, when it comes down to it, always judge the individual based on their own merits. I don't care about your previous associations or your history in relation to others, but I am not sure if this is related to the social instinct in socionics or if it's to democracy.

I have begun to think that aristocracy and democracy is more about how to manage humans as a resource, because aristocracy ultimately puts people into a social hierarchy whether they like it or not. I think we see this the best reflected in various political models where countries such as Sweden is clearly democratic in how it wants to provide the same rights to the individual; there is no real internal hierarchy that separates them apart and bases their personal qualities and merits on that logic. Compare to actual aristocratic systems such as royalty and the like.

It's a pretty shitty dichotomy though, because of how easy it is to misunderstand it.

tangosthenes · Mar 4, 2015

Entropic said:
I can be so socially elitist I used to think I was an aristocrat as a result; I can easily shit talk an entire group of people without considering the individuals in it eg white trash and the like. I do however, when it comes down to it, always judge the individual based on their own merits. I don't care about your previous associations or your history in relation to others, but I am not sure if this is related to the social instinct in socionics or if it's to democracy.

I have begun to think that aristocracy and democracy is more about how to manage humans as a resource, because aristocracy ultimately puts people into a social hierarchy whether they like it or not. I think we see this the best reflected in various political models where countries such as Sweden is clearly democratic in how it wants to provide the same rights to the individual; there is no real internal hierarchy that separates them apart and bases their personal qualities and merits on that logic. Compare to actual aristocratic systems such as royalty and the like.

It's a pretty shitty dichotomy though, because of how easy it is to misunderstand it.

This is it.

Kintsugi · Mar 4, 2015

@Entropic

Can you give an example of how an aristocratic type would place someone in a social hierarchy?

Also, I understand aristocracy best when I think of Beta but I find it harder to understand it when I think of Delta...

I also think aristocracy/democracy could be very easily misunderstood/misinterpreted (coming from someone who clearly doesn't understand it).

Kyusaku · Mar 4, 2015

Just a reminder, Aristocracy is often misused, the real term is Oligarchy. Aristocracy comes from Aristotle, who theorized this as the most beneficial form of government: a group of the wisest people leading all the others. Nothing to do with royalty or heritage through blood, it is determined by wisdom and intelligence.

In the same way, Democracy refers to Demagogy. A country led by the mob. The real term for Democracy is Politeia, politics.

Everybody are making those mistakes, it's not a drama, but it is still false, and should be corrected.

Vermillion · Mar 4, 2015

I created an expression that helps me understand beta vs delta aristocracy: beta aristocracy perceives the group ("hierarchy") the individual is in, and determines the qualities of the individual on the basis of that. Delta aristocracy perceives the qualities ("potential") of the individual and then places them in the appropriate group.

Essentially they do the same thing, but in inverted directions.

LibertyPrime · Mar 4, 2015

Amaterasu said:
I created an expression that helps me understand beta vs delta aristocracy: beta aristocracy perceives the group ("hierarchy") the individual is in, and determines the qualities of the individual on the basis of that. Delta aristocracy perceives the qualities ("potential") of the individual and then places them in the appropriate group.

Essentially they do the same thing, but in inverted directions.

That makes sense.

Ixim · Mar 4, 2015

Yeah, I had a chat with Entropic just about this. It's pretty confusing dichotomy to be sure that, to be quite honest, I'd just eliminate. Look, just because maths say that something MIGHT exist, does not mean that it actually exists. And to be quite honest:

I'll believe it when I experience it. How very sensor of you :tongue: .

I just had a quarrel with a guard in a shop who was very persistent that I mustn't drink in there. In a GROCERY STORE. It'd be ok if he said that in Benetton or in S.Oliver or in a Computer Store, but in, what basically boils down to, Woolworths? WTF. Anyhow, he even showed me the badge and stuff, but it didn't interest me a bit. I just wanted to know why is he harassing me, on what merits/laws and a definite proof he is who he claims to be(no pic on the id card). I was also interested in his reasoning, but that didn't stop me from holding my ground like the whole USA invaded it. What can be learned from that? Well, I learned that I simply can't be any other way but strict, territorial and zealous. Is it ok to be that? Depends whom you ask. I see it merely as a way of dualisation. And it is. It also taught me that I am democratic because I didn't care one flying fk about his background, hierarchy or whatever. But he was a reasonable, if persistent guy so I let it slide.

Gee, thanks mr Lawful! I learned a LOT today!

edit: Obligatory question: Alpha vs Gamma Demo -> Go!

tangosthenes · Mar 4, 2015

Ixim said:
Yeah, I had a chat with Entropic just about this. It's pretty confusing dichotomy to be sure that, to be quite honest, I'd just eliminate. Look, just because maths say that something MIGHT exist, does not mean that it actually exists. And to be quite honest:

I'll believe it when I experience it. How very sensor of you :tongue: .

I just had a quarrel with a guard in a shop who was very persistent that I mustn't drink in there. In a GROCERY STORE. It'd be ok if he said that in Benetton or in S.Oliver or in a Computer Store, but in, what basically boils down to, Woolworths? WTF. Anyhow, he even showed me the badge and stuff, but it didn't interest me a bit. I just wanted to know why is he harassing me, on what merits/laws and a definite proof he is who he claims to be(no pic on the id card). I was also interested in his reasoning, but that didn't stop me from holding my ground like the whole USA invaded it. What can be learned from that? Well, I learned that I simply can't be any other way but strict, territorial and zealous. Is it ok to be that? Depends whom you ask. I see it merely as a way of dualisation. And it is. It also taught me that I am democratic because I didn't care one flying fk about his background, hierarchy or whatever. But he was a reasonable, if persistent guy so I let it slide.

Gee, thanks mr Lawful! I learned a LOT today!

edit: Obligatory question: Alpha vs Gamma Demo -> Go!

Drinking...alcohol?

Yeah maybe aristocrats can be kind of naive when they assume an instance of the hierarchy is working correctly.

Ixim · Mar 4, 2015

tangosthenes said:
Drinking...alcohol?

Yeah maybe aristocrats can be kind of naive when they assume an instance of the hierarchy is working correctly.

No actually green tea with lemon. Nothing out of ordinary lol. I don't even drink CH3CH2COOH . Nasty habit that, wouldn't you agree?

Vermillion · Mar 4, 2015

Ixim said:
No actually green tea with lemon. Nothing out of ordinary lol. I don't even drink CH3CH2COOH . Nasty habit that, wouldn't you agree?

Why would anyone drink propanoic acid? I wasn't aware it was available for popular consumption. Are you referring to CH3COOH (acetic acid/vinegar)?

Though honestly, why would anyone want to drink vinegar >_>

TwinAnthos · Mar 4, 2015

@To_august ,I'd really like to add to this poll, but I don't really know what you mean with all these alpha,delta,gamma and beta. Is it a part of some grander theory or is it just Alpha=leader, Delta=lonewolf/outcast like some people say wolf packs are made? I'd love it if you could explain it or direct me to someone or something that will.

Vermillion · Mar 4, 2015

TwinAnthos said:
@To_august ,I'd really like to add to this poll, but I don't really know what you mean with all these alpha,delta,gamma and beta. Is it a part of some grander theory or is it just Alpha=leader, Delta=lonewolf/outcast like some people say wolf packs are made? I'd love it if you could explain it or direct me to someone or something that will.

Lol, you're in the Socionics forum. So the thread is probably gonna be about Socionics, right? :tongue:

Quadra - Wikisocion
Alpha Quadra - Wikisocion
Beta Quadra - Wikisocion
Gamma Quadra - Wikisocion
Delta Quadra - Wikisocion

To_august · Mar 4, 2015

TwinAnthos said:
@To_august ,I'd really like to add to this poll, but I don't really know what you mean with all these alpha,delta,gamma and beta. Is it a part of some grander theory or is it just Alpha=leader, Delta=lonewolf/outcast like some people say wolf packs are made? I'd love it if you could explain it or direct me to someone or something that will.

Oh, lol. These are Socionics quadras.

Alpha: ILE (ENTp-NeTi ego type), LII (INTj-TiNe ego type), ESE (ESFj-FeSi ego type), SEI(ISFp-SiFe ego type)

Beta: SLE (ESTp-SeTi ego type), LSI (ISTj-TiSe ego type), EIE (ENFj-FeNi ego type), IEI (INFp-NiFe ego type)

Gamma: LIE (ENTj-TeNi ego type), ILI (INTp-NiTe ego type), SEE (ESFp-SeFi ego type), ESI (ISFj-FiSe ego type)

Delta: LSE (ESTj-TeSi ego type), SLI (ISTp-SiTe ego type), IEE (ENFp-NeFi ego type), EII (INFj-FiNe ego type)

TwinAnthos · Mar 4, 2015

Amaterasu said:
Lol, you're in the Socionics forum. So the thread is probably gonna be about Socionics, right? :tongue:

Quadra - Wikisocion
Alpha Quadra - Wikisocion
Beta Quadra - Wikisocion
Gamma Quadra - Wikisocion
Delta Quadra - Wikisocion

Haha , I didn't notice ; I just clicked it :tongue: Thanks =)

TwinAnthos · Mar 4, 2015

To_august said:
Oh, lol. These are Socionics quadras.

Alpha: ILE (ENTp-NeTi ego type), LII (INTj-TiNe ego type), ESE (ESFj-FeSi ego type), SEI(ISFp-SiFe ego type)

Beta: SLE (ESTp-SeTi ego type), LSI (ISTj-TiSe ego type), EIE (ENFj-FeNi ego type), IEI (INFp-NiFe ego type)

Gamma: LIE (ENTj-TeNi ego type), ILI (INTp-NiTe ego type), SEE (ESFp-SeFi ego type), ESI (ISFj-FiSe ego type)

Delta: LSE (ESTj-TeSi ego type), SLI (ISTp-SiTe ego type), IEE (ENFp-NeFi ego type), EII (INFj-FiNe ego type)

So I've been told very recently=). Hmmm.... So I'm an SLI Delta? Or am I a Beta LSI based on functions? I've heard socionic functions are different from jung's though.

Entropic · Mar 4, 2015

Kintsugi said:
@Entropic

Can you give an example of how an aristocratic type would place someone in a social hierarchy?

Also, I understand aristocracy best when I think of Beta but I find it harder to understand it when I think of Delta...

I also think aristocracy/democracy could be very easily misunderstood/misinterpreted (coming from someone who clearly doesn't understand it).

I don't really get aristocracy and I understand delta a little better than beta, but delta is essentially like say taking the MBTI test and then being plotted to perform specific tasks based on your personal aptitudes, because that would be the most effective way for you to develop and enjoy yourself, and provide to society. It becomes an aristocratic system because eventually all say, INTPs, will end up doing INTP things or that is deemed to be an INTP thing. Your personal qualities and merit is based on your type label and what it says about you.

The Indian caste system is a good example of aristocracy but I'd argue more so beta than delta.

Kyusaku said:
Just a reminder, Aristocracy is often misused, the real term is Oligarchy. Aristocracy comes from Aristotle, who theorized this as the most beneficial form of government: a group of the wisest people leading all the others. Nothing to do with royalty or heritage through blood, it is determined by wisdom and intelligence.

In the same way, Democracy refers to Demagogy. A country led by the mob. The real term for Democracy is Politeia, politics.

Everybody are making those mistakes, it's not a drama, but it is still false, and should be corrected.

I don't get why you are connecting to the historical antecedents of the terminology? In socionics the terms are obviously not very tired to their historical origins.

Kyusaku · Mar 4, 2015

Entropic said:
I don't get why you are connecting to the historical antecedents of the terminology? In socionics the terms are obviously not very tired to their historical origins.

As I understand it, Aristocrats in socionics are entitled because they feel morally higher, the connection between both doesn't seem as far fetch to me. For the Democrats I don't know, I haven't read about them so far.

Entropic · Mar 4, 2015

Kyusaku said:
As I understand it, Aristocrats in socionics are entitled because they feel morally higher, the connection between both doesn't seem as far fetch to me. For the Democrats I don't know, I haven't read about them so far.

Morally higher, how so?

Kyusaku · Mar 4, 2015

Entropic said:
Morally higher, how so?

Ethics might have been a better word I suppose. Because they submit themselves to higher standards they expect to be treated differently.

Aristocrats vs Democrats.

How do you relate to Aristocracy/Democracy?

I’m Alpha, rational base and relate to Aristocracy

I’m Alpha, rational base and relate to Democracy

I’m Alpha, irrational base and relate to Aristocracy

I’m Alpha, irrational base and relate to Democracy

I’m Alpha and can’t choose and/or don’t understand this dichotomy.

I’m Beta, rational base and relate to Aristocracy

I’m Beta, rational base and relate to Democracy

I’m Beta, irrational base and relate to Aristocracy

I’m Beta, irrational base and relate to Democracy

I’m Beta and can’t choose and/or don’t understand this dichotomy.

I’m Gamma, rational base and relate to Aristocracy

I’m Gamma, rational base and relate to Democracy

I’m Gamma, irrational base and relate to Aristocracy

I’m Gamma, irrational base and relate to Democracy

I’m Gamma and can’t choose and/or don’t understand this dichotomy.

I’m Delta, rational base and relate to Aristocracy

I’m Delta, rational base and relate to Democracy

I’m Delta, irrational base and relate to Aristocracy

I’m Delta, irrational base and relate to Democracy

I’m Delta and can’t choose and/or don’t understand this dichotomy.

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