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How do you relate to Aristocracy/Democracy?

  • I’m Alpha, rational base and relate to Aristocracy

    Votes: 4 6.7%
  • I’m Alpha, rational base and relate to Democracy

    Votes: 6 10%
  • I’m Alpha, irrational base and relate to Aristocracy

    Votes: 0 0%
  • I’m Alpha, irrational base and relate to Democracy

    Votes: 2 3.3%
  • I’m Alpha and can’t choose and/or don’t understand this dichotomy.

    Votes: 1 1.7%
  • I’m Beta, rational base and relate to Aristocracy

    Votes: 2 3.3%
  • I’m Beta, rational base and relate to Democracy

    Votes: 0 0%
  • I’m Beta, irrational base and relate to Aristocracy

    Votes: 12 20%
  • I’m Beta, irrational base and relate to Democracy

    Votes: 1 1.7%
  • I’m Beta and can’t choose and/or don’t understand this dichotomy.

    Votes: 0 0%
  • I’m Gamma, rational base and relate to Aristocracy

    Votes: 1 1.7%
  • I’m Gamma, rational base and relate to Democracy

    Votes: 7 12%
  • I’m Gamma, irrational base and relate to Aristocracy

    Votes: 1 1.7%
  • I’m Gamma, irrational base and relate to Democracy

    Votes: 8 13%
  • I’m Gamma and can’t choose and/or don’t understand this dichotomy.

    Votes: 0 0%
  • I’m Delta, rational base and relate to Aristocracy

    Votes: 6 10%
  • I’m Delta, rational base and relate to Democracy

    Votes: 1 1.7%
  • I’m Delta, irrational base and relate to Aristocracy

    Votes: 4 6.7%
  • I’m Delta, irrational base and relate to Democracy

    Votes: 2 3.3%
  • I’m Delta and can’t choose and/or don’t understand this dichotomy.

    Votes: 2 3.3%
61 - 80 of 89 Posts
I tend to be rather uncaring as to what a person's background is, yet I will use that background as a weapon against them in order to insult or mock them. Like someone who is a meme-spouting racist, I'd tell them to go back to reddit, and that they shouldn't really belong there. Yet I don't really have a problem with redditors in themselves. Considering that I'm more culturally influenced by Something Awful, and 4chan, I tend to insult goons and chantards less from where they come from. Even if I don't really visit those sites very often anymore. Maybe I just tend to see people who I don't like, as people who belong in the "bad' group, and those who I like are mostly involved with me personally. As such if I want to reject someone, then I'd simply relegate them to a group that I don't like, and then banish their image to that group. With them being little more than a backdrop in the background of some disgusting wash-out blank of disgusting garbage, that have a distasteful opinion of.

I have no idea what exactly does this mean. But does the fact that I tend to see people I like, as being more individually driven, and people who I don't like, as being corrupt? It's apparently a pretty common phenomenon in psychology.

Also I don't get out much. That's why I use the internet as an example.
 
I will say that this likely the dichotomy that causes the most confusion and mistyping. (Mostly aristocratic types mistyping as democratic). Just looking at the words themselves, democratic just sounds more desirable. The description seems to focus on democratic types recognizing others as unique individuals and artistocratic types as part of some larger group. Perhaps people want to identify with democratic more- as aristocratic could be misconstrued as elitist, racist, etc. I could have been prone to making that error myself too.

At first, I identified as a strong democratic type. Then it was suggested I was more aristocratic. The more I think about it, the more sense aristocratic makes. I do perceive people through their personal qualities like 'nice', 'interesting', 'quiet', etc. (consistent with democratic) but those qualities I seem to put in a larger context. I seem to create groups based on these qualities- I can't help myself. Nice vs. not so nice. Open minded vs. closed minded. Imaginative vs. practical. You get the idea. People can be on one side or another. I tend to categorize people. It may not be on things typically associated with aristocratic like their racial group, occupation, or country but its still categorization and grouping people.

Why do I categorize? I think it gives me a sense of structure and security in dealing with people. By categorizing them into a recognizable 'type'- I have a blueprint I can work with - makes it easier to know how to best interact with this person. (Again, this could just be my Ti at work here and not dichotomy related).

I'm not proud of it but I can be guilty of stereotyping. For example I notice that a couple of ILI's seem overly skeptical of certain theories and just seem to dismiss it straight away without any desire to explore it further. Then I get wary of discussing certain things with someone who appears to be ILI for fear they might do the same.
 
I know he's banned and all; I just felt like responding.

I can be so socially elitist I used to think I was an aristocrat as a result; I can easily shit talk an entire group of people without considering the individuals in it eg white trash and the like. I do however, when it comes down to it, always judge the individual based on their own merits. I don't care about your previous associations or your history in relation to others, but I am not sure if this is related to the social instinct in socionics or if it's to democracy.
As do I? I always do my best to see an individual for the person they are and what they've done. I don't really bring the groups they belong to and such into it; or so I think.

I have begun to think that aristocracy and democracy is more about how to manage humans as a resource, because aristocracy ultimately puts people into a social hierarchy whether they like it or not. I think we see this the best reflected in various political models where countries such as Sweden is clearly democratic in how it wants to provide the same rights to the individual; there is no real internal hierarchy that separates them apart and bases their personal qualities and merits on that logic. Compare to actual aristocratic systems such as royalty and the like.

It's a pretty shitty dichotomy though, because of how easy it is to misunderstand it.
I'm an aristocrat and highly support Sweden/Finland and equal rights for individuals?

I don't think it's a philosophy thing, truly. They way I view it is that certain people are better at certain things, thus we should put them where they're the best. I don't trust the masses and neither did many early philosophers on democracy.

Perhaps democrats see individuals as all holding the same potential for success where aristocrats only see individuals for their merits and such in the world. Sure, certain people might be equal--but does it matter? There are certain people that are taking advantage of their resources better--dont those people get a higher say?

I tend to be rather uncaring as to what a person's background is, yet I will use that background as a weapon against them in order to insult or mock them. Like someone who is a meme-spouting racist, I'd tell them to go back to reddit, and that they shouldn't really belong there. Yet I don't really have a problem with redditors in themselves. Considering that I'm more culturally influenced by Something Awful, and 4chan, I tend to insult goons and chantards less from where they come from. Even if I don't really visit those sites very often anymore. Maybe I just tend to see people who I don't like, as people who belong in the "bad' group, and those who I like are mostly involved with me personally. As such if I want to reject someone, then I'd simply relegate them to a group that I don't like, and then banish their image to that group. With them being little more than a backdrop in the background of some disgusting wash-out blank of disgusting garbage, that have a distasteful opinion of.

I have no idea what exactly does this mean. But does the fact that I tend to see people I like, as being more individually driven, and people who I don't like, as being corrupt? It's apparently a pretty common phenomenon in psychology.

Also I don't get out much. That's why I use the internet as an example.
This, absolutely, sounds like beta aristocracy. I would never use someones background against them (in a real argument). It detracts from the main point and only serves to make me look like I'm distracting and losing the argument. (tbh, seems Fe/Ti)
 
This, absolutely, sounds like beta aristocracy. I would never use someones background against them (in a real argument). It detracts from the main point and only serves to make me look like I'm distracting and losing the argument. (tbh, seems Fe/Ti)
Welp. I don't really think renin dichotomies are even really important at all, and just state what is rather obvious from the combination of quadra values.

I tend to think that arguing without someone is pointless, and I'd rather just rant at someone about how they are wrong anyways. People only really change whenever they are forced by the circumstances. That's just human nature.
 
I think it is important to recognize that the democrat view him or herself like a democrat do. And the aristocrat view him or herself like an aristocrat do. And also everyone around him or her. Maybe that is why I found some of these things democrats say about aristocrat so alien?

I fail to see how an aristocrat leader would be unfair and a democrat leader to see everyone equal. Quite the opposite. For an aristocrat leader there would be no personal bias towards people. Like the sport coach that just try to get the team in a holistic strong position where the democrat sport coach pick favorites because they have the same interests or compassions outside of the game, not based on performance. The aristocratic leader would in this aspect be more objective and fair to the game and also to each individual. Everyone play one the same premises.
 
I know that this is an old thread, but I have a quick (and kinda pointless) question about Democracy/Aristocracy. Is it an example of Aristocracy when an American who wasn't alive in 1941 says "We entered World War II in 1941" or "We were attacked at Pearl Harbor in 1941"? It's sort of a minor pet-peeve of mine when people talk like this. Is it more Democratic for an American who wasn't alive in 1941 to say "The United States entered World War II in 1941" or "The United States was attacked at Pearl Harbor in 1941"?
 
Discussion starter · #70 ·
I know that this is an old thread, but I have a quick (and kinda pointless) question about Democracy/Aristocracy. Is it an example of Aristocracy when an American who wasn't alive in 1941 says "We entered World War II in 1941" or "We were attacked at Pearl Harbor in 1941"? It's sort of a minor pet-peeve of mine when people talk like this. Is it more Democratic for an American who wasn't alive in 1941 to say "The United States entered World War II in 1941" or "The United States was attacked at Pearl Harbor in 1941"?
I don't think it's strictly correlated, but I understand what you mean. "We" gives emphatic stress to the phrase, which serves eather to emphasize the difference between groups of people ("we did all the job, and you/they were just hanging around waiting to gain profit") or to let people feel unity and belonging to the larger group. For example, most politicians use "we" in their speeches to produce a sense of unity, get people together and make them feel part of the historical processes the nation goes through, or to set their sense of belonging against someone else's.

Seems like some Se-Ni interplay is involved in this. But same person may use both interchangeably, depending on the situation, and, imo, people tend to pick up those phrasings, which they used to hear more frequently.
 
I think Stratiyevskaya's definitions from the Quadra Complexes are better (which by the way, is a must read):

"Aristocratic" trait (rational aspects are evolutionary, with a plus sign; irrational aspects are involutionary, with a minus sign: +Fe, +Ti, -Se, -Ni)

In accordance with this trait, every person has the right 1) to create a hierarchy, establishing relations of subordination, to subordinate those below him and to comply with those above him 2) to support already established within the hierarchy traditions and rituals and monitor their observance 3) to put claims to the dominant positions within the system and to fight for one's right to occupy them 4) to fight for positional advantages in accumulation of rights, privileges, and opportunities 5) to establish one's own order within the system, consolidating power in one's own hands, to interact with others from position of power 6) to suppress by own authority, by authority of personal opinion 7) to control and critique the statements of lower ranking members of the hierarchy, limiting their right to expression on any (or on forbidden) subjects 8) to authoritatively impose one's own point of view, decisions, power, and will.

"Democratic" trait (rational aspects are involutionary, with a minus sign; irrational aspects are evolutionary, with a plus sign: -Fe, -Ti, +Ne, +Si)

In accordance with this trait, every person has the right 1) to interact with others as an equal 2) to have equal rights and opportunities 3) to fight and contend for equal rights and opportunities 4) to freely express on any topic 5) to freely defend their point of view 6) to strive to defend their rights and opportunities by any means.

Alpha Quadra: The Complex of Closed Mouth by Stratiyevskaya - Wikisocion
Beta Quadra: The Complex of Subservience by Stratiyevskaya - Wikisocion
Gamma Quadra: The Complex of Tied Hands by Stratiyevskaya - Wikisocion
Delta Quadra: The Complex of Clipped Wings by Stratiyevskaya - Wikisocion
 
The interesting thing about the Reinin dichotomies is that they are not necessarily set in anyone individual.
It constantly depends on the situation culture and other factors.
So when it comes to it, I can see how I could become aristocratic in certain ways.
However my congitive functions would be quick to point out the flaws of the division.
Like an INFP I know who seperate people into smart and dumb people.
Everytime I have a conflict with a person he considers smart he is like.
But you do know that X is smart?!!
Like "Let all us smart guys unite!" or something...
I can see his argument and wouldn't have a problem with supporting such a scheme to a degree.
But then when I meet people he considers not smart, I can't really bring myself to keep thinking like that.
I have the ability to keep that divide, but I don't find it natural.
I would guess that such a thing would go the other way too.
As there sure are valid qualities that can be brought to attention in both views.
Smart people do often have a lot in common, and can create more stimulating conversation on average.
And if you belong to a group in the Fe sense of it, you probably have integrated certain superego traits normatively.
So it makes sense to keep that aspect in mind.
Even if it is pretty unnatural to divide it like that in my mind.
 
I think Aristocracy has mostly to do with creating hierarchies, which are subjective I guess.

So naturally, Betas and Deltas want to be on the top of the pecking order, while Alphas and Gammas fear that their freedom and the right to be treated as an equal will be infringed.

Betas are authoritarian, Deltas are elitist and condescending.

Alphas are pro-democracy (free speech, etc), Gammas are anti-authority.

Interestingly, Gammas will create another kind of rival authority by accumulating wealth.
 
I think Aristocracy has mostly to do with creating hierarchies, which are subjective I guess.

So naturally, Betas and Deltas want to be on the top of the pecking order, while Alphas and Gammas fear that their freedom and the right to be treated as an equal will be infringed.
Image


^^ looks like I was delta afterall. Natural higherarchies are everything but subjective tho.

Even in league of legends, bronze players know their place. You either have skill or you don't, life is competition & hierarchy of merits. May the best survive.
 
Well most IEIs are democratic I think, but I know some are not. Still, they have the Beta quadra complex, so they would rather come out on "top" than fight for their own freedom and the right to be treated as an equal like the Democratic quadras. However, they would fight for the others' freedom.
 
^^ looks like I was delta afterall. Natural higherarchies are everything but subjective tho.

Even in league of legends, bronze players know their place. You either have skill or you don't, life is competition & hierarchy of merits. May the best survive.
So if someone reads this, tracks you down, and stabs you painfully to death in an alley with a dagger
and gets away with it!
Then that would be okay, cause may the best survive!!!

Also, about your quote.
If the inferior outmanouver the superior by imposing democracy on them.
Isn't that an indication that the so called superior is inferior overall?
After all the only reason that someone is superior in that sense,
is because you hold other traits up high than the one that in the end won the day.
Sort of like in the game of rock, paper, scissors.
Rock may bitch all day about it's natural superiority of hardness, but paper beats it everytime,
regardless of it not being hard at all.
 
So if someone reads this, tracks you down, and stabs you painfully to death in an alley with a dagger
and gets away with it!
Then that would be okay, cause may the best survive!!!
Well, he certainly has a knack for stalking and murder then. Murder however is wrong even if you don't belive in absolute morality. On a societal level other ppl have a lets say negative attitude towards a individual who uses such means, as it is detrimental to society as a whole, therefore they will expend resources to aprehend and dispose of said individual in order to preserve themselves. Thus you have laws, even if not perfect. Left to itself society naturally tends towards the removal of aspects which are detrimental to the survival of the species. This includes individuals, groups and ideas. Even if you overload society with weak or criminally inclined individuals, systems based on bad ideas, the collapse of the support structure is assured based on the agregate of individuals being contrary to it's stability, ie it implodes. The chaos then ensures a rebirth, which can only happen through the elimination of those elements which were harmful. (natural reballancing)

Also, about your quote.
If the inferior outmanouver the superior by imposing democracy on them.
Isn't that an indication that the so called superior is inferior overall?
I wouldn't call it outmanuvering, ppl wo simply can are not really stopped by democracy. It mucks up merotocracy, as far as government goes, but unless you impose true democracy aka communism and enforce it at a cultural level, no. I am still king of my property and I can freely engage in the market to a certain extent, ofc it is to be resented that larger organizations, such a corporations would use government in order to gain an advantage over smaller businesses and individuals, which is why government is part of the problem, tho group competitive advantage is nothing to snease at either. Even under a theoretically ideal system, such as comunism ppl will try to game the system, those in charge will inevitably do so and have done so in the past (which is why these things never work out). If nobody is in charge, then there is a power vacuum to be filled eventually by someone... and so it will be filled.

After all the only reason that someone is superior in that sense,
is because you hold other traits up high than the one that in the end won the day.
Sort of like in the game of rock, paper, scissors.
Rock may bitch all day about it's natural superiority of hardness, but paper beats it everytime,
regardless of it not being hard at all.
Demand creates supply, supply creates competition, competition creates excelence and plenty. Traits we find valuable are so, because they are in demand. People who can supply them have an advantage.

Intelliegence for example is such a trait. It is highly prized (great demand) and anyonene who can supply it has an advantage over others, therefore is superior.

IQ 180 > IQ 120, especially if the individual can put it to use and create value for society.

You can make a good argument however in favor of sharing some of the created value in order to prevent forcing other indiciduals into having to stalk and murder ppl. Generosity can be a trait which is advantagious, even if you don't believe in deontological ethics. Parasitic behaviour however is detrimental to this and it is a trait which cannot be valued, hence it being very low on the higherarchy of valued traits.

Non arbitrary higherarchy is how nature functions. Humans have empathy, altruism, language, lower physical strength but higher IQ, capacity for reason etc, because these have been found valuable by a process of evolution, given the environment the species lives in.
 
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Well, he certainly has a knack for stalking and murder then. Murder however is wrong even if you don't belive in absolute morality. On a societal level other ppl have a lets say negative attitude towards a individual who uses such means, as it is detrimental to society as a whole, therefore they will expend resources to aprehend and dispose of said individual in order to preserve themselves. Thus you have laws, even if not perfect. Left to itself society naturally tends towards the removal of aspects which are detrimental to the survival of the species. This includes individuals, groups and ideas. Even if you overload society with weak or criminally inclined individuals, systems based on bad ideas, the collapse of the support structure is assured based on the agregate of individuals being contrary to it's stability, ie it implodes. The chaos then ensures a rebirth, which can only happen through the elimination of those elements which were harmful. (natural reballancing)
Interesting how you view that process.
To me it is just Alphas that game Deltas until it is Betas turn to harvest them,
from the ruins of Beta, Gamma can build something new until Deltas come in and forbid everything again.
So that the only ones who are able to get anything done are the Alphas who again game Deltas.

I wouldn't call it outmanuvering, ppl wo simply can are not really stopped by democracy. It mucks up merotocracy, as far as government goes, but unless you impose true democracy aka communism and enforce it at a cultural level, no. I am still king of my property and I can freely engage in the market to a certain extent, ofc it is to be resented that larger organizations, such a corporations would use government in order to gain an advantage over smaller businesses and individuals, which is why government is part of the problem, tho group competitive advantage is nothing to snease at either. Even under a theoretically ideal system, such as comunism ppl will try to game the system, those in charge will inevitably do so and have done so in the past (which is why these things never work out). If nobody is in charge, then there is a power vacuum to be filled eventually by someone... and so it will be filled.

Demand creates supply, supply creates competition, competition creates excelence and plenty. Traits we find valuable are so, because they are in demand. People who can supply them have an advantage.

Intelliegence for example is such a trait. It is highly prized (great demand) and anyonene who can supply it has an advantage over others, therefore is superior.

IQ 180 > IQ 120, especially if the individual can put it to use and create value for society.

You can make a good argument however in favor of sharing some of the created value in order to prevent forcing other indiciduals into having to stalk and murder ppl. Generosity can be a trait which is advantagious, even if you don't believe in deontological ethics. Parasitic behaviour however is detrimental to this and it is a trait which cannot be valued, hence it being very low on the higherarchy of valued traits.

Non arbitrary higherarchy is how nature functions. Humans have empathy, altruism, language, lower physical strength but higher IQ, capacity for reason etc, because these have been found valuable by a process of evolution, given the environment the species lives in.
Yeah interesting arguments, one can make many of those.
Having seen what path yours take I don't really care to finish the debate off.
It is a predictable stalemate due to a cognitive disconnect that either ends in mutual frustration and contempt,
or some respectable agreement to disagree.
I'm too sleepy for that, so I'll just pretend that whatever my Ni saw as the end has already happened,
and that it was a good end for me.

Good night :witch:
 
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