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PixieSaysHi

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
As written by Don Richard Riso and Russ Hudson

"The traits of the Five and those of the Four reinforce each other in many ways. Both Five and Four are withdrawn types: they turn to the inner world of their imagination to defend their egos and to reinforce their sense of self. They both feel that something essential in themselves must be found before they can live their lives completely. Fives lack the confidence to act, and Fours lack a strong, stable sense of identity. Thus, Fives with a Four wing have difficulty connecting with others and staying grounded. People of this subtype are more emotional and introverted than Fives with a Six wing, although paradoxically, they tend to be more sociable than the other subtype. As a result of their Four component, they are also more interested in the personal and intrapsychic. The two types also have some significant differences in their approach. Fives are cerebral, holding experience at arm's length, while Fours internalize everything to intensify their feelings. Despite these differences---or because of them---these two personality types make one of the richest subtypes, combining possibilities for oustanding artistic as well as intellectual achievement. Noteworthy examples of this subtype include Albert Einstein, Werner Heisenburg, Friedrich Nietzsche, Georgia O'Keeffe, John Cage, John Lennon, k. d. lang, Laurie Anderson, James Joyce, Emily Dickinson, Stanley Kubrick, David Lynch, Buster Keaton, Gary Larson, Stephen King, Tim Burton, Clive Barker, Franz Kafka, Umberto Eco, jean-Pual Sartre, Oriana Fallaci, Glenn Gould, Peter Serkin, Hannah Arendt, Kurt Cobain, and Vincent van Gogh.

In healthy people of this subtype, we find the union of intuition and knowledge, sensitivity and insight, aesthetic appreciate and intellectual endowments. Fives with a Four-wing are likely to be involved in the arts as writers, directors, designers, musicians, composers, choreographers, and so forth. This subtype has been somewhat overlooked in many descriptions of Fives because they do nit fit the stereotype of the academic/scientific Five(the Five with a Six-wing). This subtype is more synthetic in its thinking, pulling things together and seeking out new ways of looking at things. Also, Fives with a Four-wing tend to utilize their imaginations more than the analytic, systematic parts of the mind which are more the domain of the other subtype, If they are involved in science, are drawn to those areas in which there is less emphasis on experimentation and data-collection than on intuition and comprehensive vision. This subtype is particularly aware of---and on the lookout for---the beauty in a mathematical formula, for example. For this subtype, beauty is one of the indications of truth, because the order which beauty represents is a confirmation of the objective rightness of an idea. One of the foremost strengths of healthy Fives with a Four-wing lies precisely in their intuition, since intuitions he,ps them uncover areas of knowledge where their conscious thoughts have not yet ventured. The Four-wing adds a desire to find a unique, personal vision to the curiosity and perceptiveness of the Five, and the result is a propensity to "tinker" with familiar forms until they become something almost unrecognizable. In talented Fives with a Four-wing, this can lead to startling innovations in their chosen fields of endeavor.

In Average Fives with a Four -wing, the Four-wing adds emotional depth, but causes difficulties in sustaining efforts and in working with others. Fives with a Four-wing are more independent than Fives with a Six-wing and resist having structures and deadlines imposed on them. There can be an off-putting detachment from the environment, both because they involved in their thoughts and because they are introverted and emotionally self-absorbed. Analytic powers may be used to keep people at arm's length rather than to understand them more deeply. Emotionally delicate, people of this subtype can be moody and hypersensitive to criticism, particularly regarding the value of their work or ideas, since this impinges directly upon self-esteem. Both component types tend to withdraw from people and be reclusive. They can be highly creative and imaginative, envisioning alternate realities in great detail, but can get lost in their own cerebral landscapes. The Four-wing gives a propensity to fantasizing, but with the Five with the Four-wing, the subject matters tends toward the surreal and fantastic rather than the romantic. Individuals of this subtype can become highly impractical, spending most of their time reading, playing intellectual games, or specializing in trivia. There is often an attraction to dark, forbidden subject matter or to any way of self-expression which would disturb or upset others. Some Fives with a Four-wing become fascinated with the macabre and the horrific. As they become more impractical and fearful about their possibilities in life, one typical solution is to find emotional solace in various forms of self-indulgence---in alcohol, drugs, or sexual escapades.

Unhealthy persons of this subtype may fall prey to debilitating depressions yet be disturbed by aggressive impulses. Envy of others mixes with contempt for them; the desire ti isolate themselves from the world mixes with regret that it must be so. Intellectual conflicts make their emotional lives seem hopeless, while their emotional conflicts make intellectual work difficult to sustain. Moreover, if this subtype becomes neurotic, it is one of the most alienated of all the personality types: profoundly hopeless, nihilistic, self-inhibiting, isolated from others, and full of self-hatred. Unhealthy Fives with a Four-wing retreat into a very bleak, minimal existence, attempting to cut off from all needs. The self-rejection and despair of the Four combines with cynical nihilism of the Five, to create a worldview that is relentlessly negative and terrifying. Social isolation, addiction, and chronic depression are common. Suicide is a real possibility."

When sliding down the slippery slope to unhealthy levels, how would a 5w4 realistically climb back out to average to healthy levels? What practical solutions help this personality type to successfully reenter the real world and sustain real life relationships/careers/mental health? Sometimes my reality can look akin to a Tim Burton flick. Creativity and imagination are assets when healthy, when unhealthy it can turn a simple conversation, landscape, view out my window into a dark morbid pilgrimage into a frightening chamber cell. How does a 5w4 break the cycle?
 
Right now I'm struggling with nihilism too. I find myself driven to keep voyaging and moving throughout life; staying in one place and maintaining a routine for extended periods of time feels like death. Now that I have a family and we're trying to buy a house, I feel a bleakness in that, especially since circumstances push us to settle in the NJ suburbs, not exactly my ideal setting.
 
Oh, my. This description is wonderful. An in-depth analysis that describes me perfectly.

I've always had a self loathing problem. I think to myself, "You're worthless. You can't do anything right, and you'll never be competent enough to function in the real world." I take solace in writing and other forms of art, but I'm hesitant to show my work to other people because any criticism, no matter how well-intentioned, is a huge blow to my self esteem.
I love the horrifying and macabre, probably way more than I should, but I don't see it as unhealthy because it makes me happy and doesn't distress me like it would other people.

The thing that keeps me going when I'm in a funk is the one friend (a type 2) who functions as my go-to shoulder to cry on. If she ever turned against me I would be in huge trouble, because she knows everything about me.

If all else fails, I lose myself in my inner world. The good people of Ăśberstadt will never judge me.
 
What helps me most are things like meditation and prayer. I still keep on the track of using theories and somewhat scientific methods.
It may some silly, and it makes me feel like a weirdo sometimes, but if I am having an emotional or existential problem, I research it.
I research different moods and ailments and find scientific ways to help cope. Psychology and therapy can be very helpful. Sometimes it's hard for me to realize that I am depressed. I'll look up the symptoms, force myself to take a good look at myself, and try out the methods that are suggested to help relieve depression. It's fun that way too. It becomes an experiment. I'll try everything from positive thinking exercises to special diets to reduce stress.
Taking a minute to breathe and remind myself to move down into my body can really do wonders. I close my eyes and imagine my energy as something visable, like a ball of light and try to push it down out of my head and into my body. I imagine myself breathing it out and pushing it out into the world and energy from the world coming into me in return. I try to think of the balance of nature and to be a part of it rather than an observer. I say to myself, "Out, not in. Don't grasp so tight. Focus. Right here, right now. You are right here, right now. All there is is this moment. You don't need to think about other things. Just stay in the present."
A friend has helped me by reminding me that not everything has to be so big and important. Some things are just things and that's okay. That's part of life.
I try to gain peace and to appreciate peace as a space to rest and flow gently instead of getting bored and scattering. I remind myself that life will go on. Big things will happen later and I need to save my energy for that.
 
The excerpt is interesting. As a 4w5 I sometimes feel myself split between keeping experience at an arms length and seeking out experiences that I know will intensify my emotions. I don't really cope with my nihilism and depression. I am aware that I live in a bubble of my own making, but I don't want to be vulnerable. I'm a control freak when it comes to my emotions.
 
When I feel existentially depressed, I think a lot about life. After a while, I look for errors in that way of thinking, and research about how to improve my current situation. Usually, the feeling passes with time, and I feel much more peaceful. Other methods that work are working on a project, going out with friends, taking a walk alone, reading inspiring stories, exercising, meditating, writing, and so on. I find the works of Viktor Frankl and Epictetus give me a new perspective to approach these self-destructive attitudes.
 
Discussion starter · #9 ·
I've found that actually going out into the world helps to alleviate my extreme despair, since it removes me from the cell that I tend to imprison myself in.
Yeah, you're absolutely right. The hard part is figuring out HOW to do this. I am late for a party right now and am DREADING this like someone would dread going to get a root canal. This can't be normal. Ugh.
 
Discussion starter · #10 ·
I have a quote from my grandma that she wrote for me on her deathbed. It just came to my mind right now as I was thinking about how much life sucks.

"Life never seems easy or fair at times, so toughen up and stand firm." - 1996
Your posts always seem to say the right thing at the right time. Thanks.
 
Discussion starter · #11 ·
When I feel existentially depressed, I think a lot about life. After a while, I look for errors in that way of thinking, and research about how to improve my current situation. Usually, the feeling passes with time, and I feel much more peaceful. Other methods that work are working on a project, going out with friends, taking a walk alone, reading inspiring stories, exercising, meditating, writing, and so on. I find the works of Viktor Frankl and Epictetus give me a new perspective to approach these self-destructive attitudes.
I agree with all those coping strategies. I love your sig quote, too. I've read "Man's Search for Meaning" several times and am attempting to apply his logotherapy to myself. He is one psychiatrist I greatly admire because he has both witnessed and experienced great human suffering and also conquered it. People like him fascinate me. His quote in your signature exemplifies his profound wisdom. I wonder if he may have been a 5w4?
 
Yeah, you're absolutely right. The hard part is figuring out HOW to do this. I am late for a party right now and am DREADING this like someone would dread going to get a root canal. This can't be normal. Ugh.
Even a simple thing like going out for a walk can help. It can let you see that not everything is hideously deformed.
 
The way I deal with nihilism and depression is a mix between Willy Wonka-ness (If things don't make sense, just have fun with it), the knowledge that I'm going to die eventually anyway - so there's no need to rush things, and Agnes' attitude in "Viskningar och rop".

A few times it has really helped to try to think of myself the way I think of other people. I really like other people (generally), and when I'm unhealthy, I can detach from myself and act like my own counselor.
 
You know what is worse? When the people you are surrounded by are not genuine and every effort you make to get along because life is too short is simply thrown back in your face to remind you why it's best not to try. For me, I'd rather be the mess that I am than have my feeling hurt every single time.
 
I dug myself out of the nihilist hole. It took years and I never thought I would make it. I wasted many positive opportunities, but I have come to the conclusion for myself that life and the universe has meaning and purpose. No one else can convince you of this. There is no proof. It is something that has to come from within. Researching quantum physics helped me tremendously. I don't believe the more weird aspects of quantum mysticism, such as people channeling spirits, but I certainly believe that reality is subjective to some extent. Positive thinking as a solution seemed absurd and stupid to me at one time, but not anymore. Your actions and thoughts compounded over the years of your lifetime absolutely have an affect on the reality around you, whether from direct manipulation or something more mysterious.

I love the Viktor Frankl quote: ...everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms -- to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way.
 
Thanks for the article, I am a type 5 and I was verging on extreme nihilism, I was totally losing it as the article describes. Now that I know what nihilism is, I am content. I have diagnosed my philosophical dilemma, and I am a moral nihilist.
 
To cope with nihilism I read books, watch anime, pretty much engage in escapism. I think even if life has no meaning we can create meaning, create a purpose to our lives. I think searching for knowledge is meaningful. As for existential depression, I try to put a positive spin on it. Depression makes you see the world for how it really is and makes you more aware.
 
Getting out into the world is a good one, but a harddd one.
If I'm really down, people will notice it, and I get bugged by everyone asking me what's wrong.
Especially when it comes to existential matters...as it does 90% of the time for me. I feel like I can't talk to anyone about it.
 
Depression makes you see the world for how it really is and makes you more aware.
I think it is cool that you said this and I think that I agree but I am curious to know exactly what you meant by this:: why do you think depression makes one see the world for how it really is? Is this because depression squanders the illusions that ego builds up, and basically says, "stop being wishful -- the 'real' world doesn't play ego-games." ? and then additionally, in order to actually get out of depression, one has to be willing to WORK WITH the 'real' world, taking real and basic steps, without depending on the support of ego to get you through? Additionally, when one is in pain, ego can't take anything for granted. the pain causes one to be more observant to what it is experiencing and what is going on around oneself -- because one is sort of perpetually on edge. >> all of these leads to greater awareness. // - these were some thoughts i had on your above quote. wasn't sure whether this was what you meant or not?
 
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