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Questions & Answers about the School of System Socionics

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sss_guy

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
Hello. I am a member of the School of System socionics and could answer your questions, if you have them of course.
I am not much of a theoretician so I can serve only as a quick reference to our theoretical section :)

The first question would be from Entropic:
@sss_guy what is your take on Reinin? Do you think Reinin always follow the TIM of the person or can Reinin differ from the established TIM?
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My short answer is that for us at the SSS TIM basically means Model A. I.e. TIM is represented by a set of 8 function each of which has its parameters like dimensionality of information processing, mentality/vitality and sign. If the Reinin traits correlated with Model A, then they could be used for establishing the same TIMs. Otherwise they are establishing some other TIMs. And it seems like there are no evidences which have demonstrated such a correlation. That's why we at the SSS don't use them.
 
Discussion starter · #4 ·
@To_august
Speaking generally any structural refinement of a model is required when the existing state of knowledge about the current model is kind of reached some saturation and doesn't explain certain new phenomena. I don't believe that is the case with the current state of socionics. I believe that model A works pretty well without introduction of subtypes.

My opinion is that there is tendency among some socionists to use subtypes for justification of their identification errors or in order to fit some particular premature conclusions into the existing theory.

Let me illustrate the general approach which leads to the introduction of subtypes. If we use some definition of the types, then inevitably there will be some particular behaviour which does not fit the description . The options are: (a) ignore this behaviour as type-irrelevant (b) include that behavior in the type description or model; (c) create a fine subdivision such as subtypes. If we chose the option (b) and enrich our description without thorough study, we might introduce some error.
The more detailed description we make, the more we fall into the belief that we have learned the type up to the minute detail. However in this case grows the probability that the next instance of the same type will not fit into such a refined description. This is kind of a vicious circle. Instead of admitting that our description is incorrect we might feel temptation to introduce a subtype.

I think that instead of introduction of subtypes we'd better made a step back each time we see a discrepancy between the existing theory and the real life and we'd rahter investigate the reason of such a discrepancy.
 
#5 ·
@sss_guy

How do you identify the time parameter? How is it different from gaining knowledge or awareness over time, which can happen even in weak areas?

For instance, this was identified as :i: with the time parameter:

I have fragments of insights I've collected over time, and I can see enough to know this is true, but not enough to really explain why. I do know one of these "fragments" is that the way I see things, there really is no such thing as a bad experience. Every experience can only add substance to your existence, it can never take away. The other fragments are harder to put into words.

But I could also say that I gain awareness of my preferences, my likes and dislikes, over time. Or that I have an awareness of my internal states and sensations changing across time, and gain knowledge over time of how to influence my internal state. Yet my :r: and :s: are one-dimensional and not considered to have the time parameter.

How is this kind of awareness across time different from the time parameter of a four-dimensional function?
 
Discussion starter · #6 ·
@Recede
OK, it is a good question. Parameter of time actually is not so simple to identify. But mostly is is seen from the context when a person has kind of constant and cotinuous awareness of the IE over time. Of course, one can say that he/she can feel changes of any other element over time but there would be difference in how that is presented. Either it will be simple account of what was happening over time or how the things looked at different moments of time (Ex). Or it can be understanding of how some understanding changed with time (Nr). Or it can include understanding of how some body of concepts ans views was changing (St).

Regarding the quoted passage. The question was if all that happens is for better. It was quite an ambiguous questuion where you could have chosen to answer in a range of elements but you have prefered the I (Ne) element which is an indication of its mentality and probably high demensionality. Than it looks as if you can easily look back in time and see how you were accumulating different fragments of insigts (+I). As if you can turm back and have a mental image of the progress of your insights and understading and this is connected with the present moment.
Of course to some degree this is our guesswork and it could be just St dimension. However one of the interesting features of this method of analysis is that you analyse small fragments and then put them all toghether and it fits some TIM. In your case it fits ILE even if we disregard this particular passage.
 
#7 ·
@sss_guy
Do I understand it right that if someone gives peculiar answer about understanding of something, and tells that it's their understanding and they don't know or don't care to know how others see it, it is interpreted as individuality and thus being eather low-dimensional or vital element? Or, maybe, it it disregarded as non-indicative of anything in particular?

I mean something in the vein of: "Imagination is a cosmic intelligence, that spreads its web through time and space, awakes hidden images and breaths them into my mind, creating transcendental experiences, connecting me to the higher cause, and enduing me with power over people's minds and forces of the world. I experience it that way and can't compare myself to how others experience it."
 
Discussion starter · #8 · (Edited)
Do I understand it right that if someone gives peculiar answer about understanding of something, and tells that it's their understanding and they don't know or don't care to know how others see it, it is interpreted as individuality and thus being eather low-dimensional or vital element? Or, maybe, it it disregarded as non-indicative of anything in particular?
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Generally yes, you got it right. About disregarding... it can be disregarded if it doesn't soung like either vital or low-dimensionality.

I mean something in the vein of: "Imagination is a cosmic intelligence, that spreads its web through time and space, awakes hidden images and breaths them into my mind, creating transcendental experiences, connecting me to the higher cause, and enduing me with power over people's minds and forces of the world. I experience it that way and can't compare myself to how others experience it."
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I would disregard this when making an express analysis because I would suspect that this answer is made up. Really a person in a common frame of mind is improbable to say somehting of this kind. Or alternatively you might ask for further explanation. And in the course of further explanation it might happen that this passage expresses a perfectly mental outlook. For example if I spoke to a medieval alchimist or a new age geek I could hear something like that from his Ego - no doubt.

P.S. OK, to be more clear about individuality and why it can be attributed to vitality. Vital track functions can hold sometimes individual patterns which could not correlate to some socially accepted ones. That's why they could sound weird. In case of Vital track someone usually expresses the way they are used to do something. Which points to habitualness of this action. It is better to illustrate this on the material from real typing situations.
 
Discussion starter · #10 ·
#11 ·
sss_guy said:
Developing typing technique is our main focus.

Below are some links to English language resources:
Our general "English" website: School of System Socionics
Theoretical section: Theory | School of System Socionics
General approach to identification: Distinctive features of the SSS methodology | School of System Socionics
Technique of identification (sorry, not yet translated): Методика удаленной диагно�тики | School of System Socionics
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dude what is your type and who are you, what of the material on that site have you written and are there more people included?
 
#12 ·
How does duality affect dimensionality of the functions? Would for example someone who has been around their duals for a long time seem significantly different in their functional dimensionality compared to someone who has not? How would dimensionality be determined in this situation?
 
Discussion starter · #14 ·
Entropic said:
How does duality affect dimensionality of the functions? Would for example someone who has been around their duals for a long time seem significantly different in their functional dimensionality compared to someone who has not? How would dimensionality be determined in this situation?
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We belive that TIM does not change over lifetime. It means that dimensionalities also stay unchanged.
In case when someone lived long with his dual dimensionlities are determined in the same way as for the general case.
 
#15 ·
sss_guy said:
We belive that TIM does not change over lifetime. It means that dimensionalities also stay unchanged.
In case when someone lived long with his dual dimensionlities are determined in the same way as for the general case.
Click to expand...
But would the impression of the person's competency change and could the person seem to have gained increased dimensionality because they have been taught this from someone who possesses higher dimensionality than themselves?
 
Discussion starter · #16 ·
It depends on our understandig of the dimensionalities. If you understand them in terms better/worse then increasing of someones capabilty indeed might look as change in dimensionality. However such thinking would be misunderstanding of the very idea of dimensions. The dimensions were meant to introduce a strict paramertization which helps to resolve the ambiguous better/worse approach. Dimensions are either present or not. If certain functions have certain dimensions - it corresponds to a certain TIM. If dimensions changed that would mean that the TIM itself changes or even the entire model A changes. In pratice and from theoretical viewpoint the TIM does not change over lifetime.

How can we explain then the icreased ability? By increased filling of the functions.

Making a reference to a metaphor of your body - if you go to a gym, you do not get extra muscles - instead your existing muscles get stronger.
 
#17 ·
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#18 ·
sss_guy said:
It depends on our understandig of the dimensionalities. If you understand them in terms better/worse then increasing of someones capabilty indeed might look as change in dimensionality. However such thinking would be misunderstanding of the very idea of dimensions. The dimensions were meant to introduce a strict paramertization which helps to resolve the ambiguous better/worse approach. Dimensions are either present or not. If certain functions have certain dimensions - it corresponds to a certain TIM. If dimensions changed that would mean that the TIM itself changes or even the entire model A changes. In pratice and from theoretical viewpoint the TIM does not change over lifetime.

How can we explain then the icreased ability? By increased filling of the functions.

Making a reference to a metaphor of your body - if you go to a gym, you do not get extra muscles - instead your existing muscles get stronger.
Click to expand...
My understanding is that dimensionality does not change but seeming competence can change because while you are still actually relying on say, norms, because the norms was something told by your dual, it can seem flexible on the outside because it showcases a competent handling of the current situation.

Also, do you believe that someone who has 4D can showcase the dimensions of all the other dimensions of that IE meaning even if you have 4D Ne, you can still in a situation only rely on 2D or it manifests as such?
 
#19 ·
Entropic said:
Also, do you believe that someone who has 4D can showcase the dimensions of all the other dimensions of that IE meaning even if you have 4D Ne, you can still in a situation only rely on 2D or it manifests as such?
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Not going to try to speak for him, but I'm not sure I understand what you mean. 2d means the person has the ability to understand and match social expectations (normative) in that element, for example 2d Fe meaning someone can keep up with and understand norms in the element of Fe. I'm pretty sure anybody with 4d Fe will have no trouble understanding social norms in that element. That doesn't mean they "rely on 2d" when they think about social norms.
 
#20 ·
Zamyatin said:
Not going to try to speak for him, but I'm not sure I understand what you mean. 2d means the person has the ability to understand and match social expectations (normative) in that element, for example 2d Fe meaning someone can keep up with and understand norms in the element of Fe. I'm pretty sure anybody with 4d Fe will have no trouble understanding social norms in that element. That doesn't mean they "rely on 2d" when they think about social norms.
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What I mean is, judging their analyses thus far, it seems as if that if X statement matches 2D, then it doesn't matter if it showcases 4D elsewhere for that IE. This is because it seems that each dimension can operate independently of each other so a person possessing 4D can freely move between all four dimensions without being limited to one, so in a situation may only require 2D, there is no need to showcase or utilize anything above 2D so therefore it will also appear as 2D in this particular context.
 
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