LIE/ESI the only flawed duality?

Inveniet · Jan 25, 2016

So I read this...
Yeah TLDR deluxe, I don't care if the mount everest of text scare you, go cry to momma or something.

http://personalitycafe.com/socionics-forum/740810-quadral-complexes-stratiyevskaya.html

It is a very interesting and good layout of the quadras,
but for some reason most of the Gamma is devoted to how LIE/ESI can never work out.
Now luckily for me I've lived enough and read enough that I have some theories on what is up with that.

However I'd like other peoples opinion on this as well, since as an ESI this really can't hit closer to home.

My theory:
The marriage is what screws the relation up.
Convention making ESI's assets and LIE's assets merged, messes up what would otherwise be a good balance.
It is society with their artificial relationship structure that empowers LIE to take advantage of ESI.
If ESI refuses to marry and only share the responsibility for the kids and manage to keep healthy boundaries,
then this shouldn't happen. In my view ESI is vulnerable, because society has made ESI vulnerable.

Fallback theory:
If this proves to be the case, that LIE is indeed only a paracite in ESIs life,
then maybe an ESI is better off with a SEE that at least understands ESI.

Vermillion · Jan 25, 2016

I think that article touches on only one kind of LIE -- a severely unhealthy, reckless, and materialistic one. Fortunately all LIEs aren't like that though

It seems like quite an extreme scenario.

Inveniet · Jan 25, 2016

Yeah, I'm wondering if the Enneagram may hold clues to that.
Might be that she is warning about dualing up with a neurotic loser basically.
Since she talks about that ESI should test the dual, before comitting to them.

Fried Eggz said:
Duality has flaws no matter which type you are.

I don't see any reason to conclude that ESI-LIE duality will fail more often than others.

Do you have any specific flaws in mind or is it more a general sentiment?
I'm all ears.

Valtire · Jan 25, 2016

Duality has flaws no matter which type you are.

I don't see any reason to conclude that ESI-LIE duality will fail more often than others.

Dalton · Jan 25, 2016

Stratievskaya types herself as ESI. Maybe she's just whining about ESI/LIE duality because she thinks her own love life has been a failure, and everybody else has it so easy. :crying:

(Also, I didn't even read what she wrote, so read this as just a possibility statement, not an assessment/evaluation.)

Inveniet · Jan 25, 2016

Basically a form of confirmation bias, could be.
I'll keep that possibility in mind.

Jeremy8419 · Jan 25, 2016

Enneagram exists within the Sociotypes.

If someone is adamant on maintaining their Sociotype, then a marriage will fail. If you can't freely flow between them in-synch with someone else more than you remain static, then you'll fail at relationships. Relationships are dynamic, not static, and they require that a person accepts and reciprocates feelings and commitment independent of long-term personality changes that one or both may involve. Love is not an emotion; it is a conscious choice to place the well-being of another before yourself over time, independent of if the other person does the same.

Inveniet · Jan 26, 2016

Jeremy8419 said:
Enneagram exists within the Sociotypes.

I've heard you say that before, yet I don't understand how that would work out, so I've put the comment aside for now.

If someone is adamant on maintaining their Sociotype, then a marriage will fail.

Marriage is a social construct that favours some more than other IMO,

If you can't freely flow between them in-synch with someone else more than you remain static, then you'll fail at relationships.

I agree that there must be a flow, but since each dual pair is unique in subjective boundaries and objective limitlessness,
I think it is safe to say that the particulars in how that happen in each dual pair would be different.
That is why advice from different types get messy, they don't fully understand the dynamic that you have to face in your pairing,
and instead project the values of their own quadra over onto the other pairing.
Giving very very bad advice that due to cultural forces, might seem like a legit and bona fide way to go about it.
The institute of marriage is one such thing, it is something that has changed over millenia and societies.
It stands to reason that it's current form is shaped more by certain types than others and hence creates and unfair environment.

Relationships are dynamic, not static, and they require that a person accepts and reciprocates feelings and commitment independent of long-term personality changes that one or both may involve. Love is not an emotion; it is a conscious choice to place the well-being of another before yourself over time, independent of if the other person does the same.

That is an interesting interpretation.

Fried Eggz said:
I have an EIE friend. We are complete opposites. We find each other's personalities to be fascinating and easy to get along with. We can't stay away from each other for long and we have absorbed chunks of each other's personalities. He's given me advice and I've given him advice.

The flaws? Duality needs a close relationship to work. We don't share any interests. We don't share any strengths. We have our priorities in reverse order of each other. There is a natural divide between us that slows down a lot of useful advice. Dealing with 4D Ne is a bit intimidating as well, even if it is suppressed.

In some ways mirror is superior to duality. Friendships form faster, advice is passed faster, interests are similar, strengths are similar.

Yeah I hear you on the 4D, it irks me too sometimes.
Thanks for sharing.

counterintuitive said:
Kinda piggybacking here, but I was thinking about the "power dynamic" in relationships. I think some duals are more balanced in terms of the power society affords them. I bolded the ones I think are unbalanced.

P1("power score")-P2("power score")
IEI(2)-SLE(5)
EII(1)-LSE(6)
EIE(4)-LSI(5)
IEE(1)-SLI(4)
ILI(3)-SEE(2)
LII(2)-ESE(3)
LIE(5)-ESI(2)
ILE(2)-SEI(1)

How I determined the "power score":

I (and maybe you) live in a society that hands relatively more power to LSEs*, and also to those with a "Directive" rather than "Informative" Interaction Style* (which is not a Socionics concept - I think it's Berens). This is highly country/culture dependent, though, so you might have a totally different experience.

I assigned one point to sharing each dichotomy with ESTj, and two points to "Directive"ness. LIE/ENTj is Directive and shares 3/4 dichotomies with LSE/ESTj for a score of 5. ESI/ISFj is Informative and shares 2/4 dichotomies with LSE/ESTj for a score of 2.

I don't think there's anything "intrinsic" about this, it's probably more to do with the larger society empowering one of the partners, yes.

*These aren't points I'm prepared to defend, just ones I used for this ranking because they "seem" true.

That makes a lot of sense.
My country is very Delta oriented right now, so to say that LSEs are in high regard is no joke.
So basically for me to have a relationship that works out with a dual,
I need to have very firm boundaries and as much power that I can gather.
It makes total sense.
I think a good start is not telling such a person anything about Jung/Socionics etc
Having full understanding of their motives etc, while they only have their natural powers and insights.
Thanks for sharing!

counterintuitive · Jan 26, 2016

Kinda piggybacking here, but I was thinking about the "power dynamic" in relationships. I think some duals are more balanced in terms of the power society affords them. I bolded the ones I think are unbalanced.

P1("power score")-P2("power score")
IEI(2)-SLE(5)
EII(1)-LSE(6)
EIE(4)-LSI(5)
IEE(1)-SLI(4)
ILI(3)-SEE(2)
LII(2)-ESE(3)
LIE(5)-ESI(2)
ILE(2)-SEI(1)

How I determined the "power score":

I (and maybe you) live in a society that hands relatively more power to LSEs*, and also to those with a "Directive" rather than "Informative" Interaction Style* (which is not a Socionics concept - I think it's Berens). This is highly country/culture dependent, though, so you might have a totally different experience.

I assigned one point to sharing each dichotomy with ESTj, and two points to "Directive"ness. LIE/ENTj is Directive and shares 3/4 dichotomies with LSE/ESTj for a score of 5. ESI/ISFj is Informative and shares 2/4 dichotomies with LSE/ESTj for a score of 2.

I don't think there's anything "intrinsic" about this, it's probably more to do with the larger society empowering one of the partners, yes.

*These aren't points I'm prepared to defend, just ones I used for this ranking because they "seem" true.

Jeremy8419 · Jan 26, 2016

That is an interesting interpretation.

Honestly, it's really not. That's just common knowledge of people who are in successful life-long relationships.

Inveniet · Jan 26, 2016

Let me rephrase myself, so you get the point... :tongue:

That is an intepretation that made me think about the issue from a new point of view.
It shifted the holografic representation of love in my head,
(A little to the left actually, then some blue was added, I noticed it when i zoomed in)
I will geek out over this new POV for a little while now.

Jeremy8419 · Jan 26, 2016

Well, I don't know what to tell you, but you're 1D Fi compared to general society, so that only leaves one type.

Inveniet · Jan 26, 2016

lol why?
Cause I don't live up to you expectations?
Such a lowly manipulative tactic to say that my most valued side is my lowest function
A true delta hard at work trying to sculpt me...
Run and hide before I clip your wings for trying to bind my hands

*Edit:
That is if you are implying that I'm a ESTP...

If you think that I'm a LIE... lol that would be the day...

Anyway I don't trust Delta's at all anymore... (So what you say is filtered carefully)
Subtly trying to snare me to feed their Ne, it is disgusting.
Beta's although annoying at least make it clear when they attack.

Inveniet · Jan 27, 2016

Should I look at his post?
Nah...probably implying something mean again to make me continue justifying myself.
Thx though, I now know what buttons my grandmother and grandfather installed in me.
It is going to be a delight uninstalling those buttons.

Freeflowingthoughts · Jan 27, 2016

You seem very ESI man. Don't worry about him, it is manipulative tactics. He will always make others doubt themselves. Your writing is beautiful and I can definetely see Ni writing and serious Se. The fact that you're manipulated by Ne means you HAVE to be LSI/ESI, and you're incredibly individualistic.

ParetoCaretheStare · Jan 27, 2016

Aren't gammas known to be the "swingers" of the quadras in the first place? That's sort of the intuitive feeling I got when reading the descriptions of the categories of social groups interactions. Marriage seems like a Delta or Beta construct, depending on how committed, of course. Lol.

Vermillion · Jan 28, 2016

I think any quadra's members can be committed and loyal; they just probably see/express it in different ways.

I'm gamma and I'm 2000% committed to partners, friends, projects, duties, whatever. It's a part of my personal integrity and I would never abandon that.

Kintsugi · Jan 30, 2016

@hornet

I'm not sure that it's quadra/type related; just someone trying to make you doubt yourself so that you submit to their world-view/perception. It's playing dirty, really.

I'd just ignore it, personally.

Inveniet · Jan 30, 2016

The Perfect Storm said:
@hornet

I'm not sure that it's quadra/type related; just someone trying to make you doubt yourself so that you submit to their world-view/perception. It's playing dirty, really.

I'd just ignore it, personally.

Well I would ordinarily, but it sort of ties neatly into the article I linked in the OP.
The topic has captured my attention.
I've studied Jung/Socioncis/Enneagram so deeply,
that when I have a breaktrough like this I can't leave it alone...

MightyLizardKing · Jan 31, 2016

The flaw of the LIE-ESI duality is that they have this view of how something should be changed for the better (pragmatically or morally) and push through everyone and everything to change an aspect of the world to their vision without ever stopping to question whether or not anyone besides them wants this aspect of the world to be like that.

There are issues to every duality.

Bash · Feb 15, 2016

Whut?

Inveniet · Feb 16, 2016

You go Einstein

Typhon · Feb 19, 2016

I think all duality has its flaws, and it becomes more obvious when you start to expect alot from duality because its duality.

I don't think LIE-ESI is more flawed than others.

Just my 2 cents.

Liminis · Feb 24, 2016

I definitely agree with the consensus here.

Any duality can be flawed. You can be dealing with an unhealthy individual on either end. You can have incompatible interests or goals. All that intertype relations indicate is that, all other things equal, duals are likely to mesh well by way of having compatible communication styles and type-related needs.

Mr inappropriate · Mar 5, 2016

@myst91
I typed at ISTJ for a while and frequented their MBTI sub-forum. I'd bet my ass on that the percantage of LSI's in ISTP part is higher than in the ISTJ part. Though the ISTJ decriptions overall, may resemble LSI a bit more, thats because how j and J decribed in both systems are (especially behavioral traits) are very similar if not same.
I think LSI-Se are prone mistype as xNTJ in MBTI. Because MBTI "NTJ" characterisrics sounds very Se on paper.

myst91 · Mar 5, 2016

I looked at both subforums and I think ISTPs are usually SLI, Fi-doms, LSI, LII, ISTJs are usually LSE, LSI, SLI, Fi-doms... I didn't try to guess at percentages.

Nah I always knew I wasn't NTJ. I never deluded myself into thinking I had Ni+Te :dry:

I don't see how INTJ characteristics sound Se anyway, it's mostly about conceptual thinking, so clearly not Sensing. ENTJ has a bit more Se but it still emphasizes long term Ni and conceptual orientation in their thinking. Willfullness doesn't equal Se.

Oh and yes, J / P and j / p are pretty similar trait-wise.

myst91 · Mar 5, 2016

@Freeflowingthoughts

Oh lol, I only notice now that you suggested to find the MBTI(?) description where everything is true. No such thing for me, ST profiles are usually okay but not quite everything. If I could pick a few things from ISTP and a few more things from ISTJ (more than from ISTP) and a few things from ESTP, I'd have a profile where all that everything is true

But as a big enough part of the type profile is just a compilation of typical traits, I'm not bothered by that. What I'm bothered by is that the functions are not well-defined in MBTI fanfiction. I'm calling it fanfiction because it's not the official MBTI and it's not pulled together in one well-researched sensible logically consistent theory, just put together from 1000 pieces and places.

Oh and I'm also bothered by the definition problem in the J/P and that's official MBTI. They don't really deal with the function dynamics much though probably because of how it didn't get to be proven in studies (if using their J/P definition).

(I'm putting this in a different post as you probably have read the previous one by now)

Freeflowingthoughts · Mar 5, 2016

@myst91 If

myst91 said:
Ni/Fe in Socionics isn't Fi/Ne in MBTI, sure.

How can LSI be Ti/Se in Socionics, and Si/Te in MBTI? The crossover is exactly the same.

Tellus · Mar 6, 2016

http://personalitycafe.com/socionics-forum/709570-4-good-duals-4-mediocre-duals.html#post23236609

LIE/ESI the only flawed duality?

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